Thread about Scientific Error in Quran

[جوري]

Let me clarify again, this isn't about 'superstitions' or about making numbers fit into some modern day disaster or outside code..

You still cannot come up with a good response to the numerical miracles! The fact is that no one can explain away how the Qur'an has used these words an exact number of times, while still being able to produce a coherent and consistent message.
A major one confirmed! I've broken down the second part into its different forms, to make it easier for research.

Mention of 'Dunyâ' (Life of this world) = 115 times

2:85, 2:86, 2:114, 2:130, 2:200, 2:201, 2:204, 2:212, 2:217, 2:220, 3:14, 3:22, 3:45, 3:56, 3:117, 3:145, 3:148, 3:152, 3:185, 4:74, 4:77, 4:94, 4:109, twice in 4:134, 5:33, 5:41, 6:29, 6:32, 6:70, 6:130, 7:32, 7:51, 7:152, 7:156, 8:42, 8:67, twice in 9:38, 9:55, 9:69, 9:74, 9:85, 10:7, 10:23, 10:24, 10:64, 10:70, 10:88, 10:98, 11:15, 11:60, 12:101, twice in 13:26, 13:34, 14:3, 14:27, 16:30, 16:41, 16:107, 16:122, 18:28, 18:45, 18:46, 18:104, 20:72, 20:131, 22:9, 22:11, 22:15, 22:33, 23:37, 24:14, 24:19, 24:23, 24:33, 28:42, 28:60, 28:61, 28:77, 28:79, 29:25, 29:27, 29:64, 30:7, 31:15, 31:33, 33:28, 33:57, 35:5, 37:6, 39:10, 39:26, 40:39, 40:43, 40:51, 41:12, 41:16, 41:31, 42:20, 42:36, 43:32, 43:35, 45:24, 45:35, 46:20, 47:36, 53:29, twice in 57:20, 59:3, 67:5, 79:38, 87:16

Mention of 'Âkhirah' (The Hereafter) =71+21+1+19+1+2 = 115 times

Al-Âkhirah = 71
2:94, 2:102, 2:114, 2:130, 2:200, 2:201, 3:77, 3:85, 3:145, 3:148, 3:152, 3:176, 5:5, 5:33, 5:41, 6:32, 7:147, 7:156, 7:169, 8:67, twice in 9:38, 10:64, 11:16, 11:12, 11:103, 12:57, 12:109, 13:26, 13:34, 14:3, 14:27, 16:30, 16:41, 16:107, 16:109, 16:122, 17:7, 17:19, 17:72, 17:104, 20:127, 23:33, 27:5, 27:66, 28:77, 28:83, 29:20, 29:27, 29:64, 30:7, 30:16, 33:29, 34:1, 38:7, 39:9, 39:26, 40:39, 40:43, 41:16, 41:31, twice in 42:20, 53:25, 57:20, 59:3, 60:13, 68:33, 74:53, 75:21, 79:25

Bil-Âkhirah = 21
2:86, 4:74, 6:92, 6:113, 6:150, 7:45, 11:19, 12:37, 16:22, 16:60, 17:10, 17:45, 23:74, 27:3, 27:4, 31:4, 34:8, 34:21, 39:45, 41:7, 53:27

Lil-Âkhirah =1
92:13

Wal-Âkhirah =19
2:217, 2:220, 3:22, 3:45, 3:56, 4:77, 4:134, 9:69, 9:74, 12:101, 22:11, 22:15, 24:14, 24:19, 24:23, 28:70, 33:57, 43:35, 87:17

Wabil-Âkhirah =1
2:4

Walal-Âkhirah =2
17:21, 93:4


http://www.islamicboard.com/198655-post20.html

 

[Hugo]

I am not disposed to finding marvels but when marvels present themselves in an overt fashion I certainly take notice!

Overt - what do you mean, you were not looking for them and hey presto they just jumped out - I would guess there is NOT a single numeric marvel tat you alone found

Perhaps you didn't read something.. in order for anyone to pass this sort of data as a fact, there is a number of variables that take place, one which happens to be three or even perhaps four phases of trial. So your example is null and void, because it has no relation to the Quran or drug trials. I have no idea why you insist on embarrassing yourself by sticking little nonsense here and there to impress someone with.. I must have made mention that I find tangentiality and circumstantiality as a psychological pathology and not a gift

Its simple really, you don't know how to go from a drug company estimate of say its risk reducing figure to the actual reduced risk for the patient - well anyway so far you have shown no sign that you do.

I never said this is the only thing in the Quran of value. I take the entire package. But certainly I wouldn't want to comfort a dying friend with some hearsay of a dying god but using a book purely of divine origin.

You might not want to but millions would with words such as those of David:

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

You Abraham is described as a 'friend of God' so he like David knew what it meant to say "for you are with me".

Never mind the numbers, share with me a similar verse from the Qu'ran

 

[Hugo]

Let me clarify again, this isn't about 'superstitions' or about making numbers fit into some modern day disaster or outside code..

Go and look at http://www.nmsr.org/code19.htm] and you will see how futile all this is with a very simple example - but then I know what you response will be "Ah! they must have made it that way!

 

[جوري]

Overt - what do you mean, you were not looking for them and hey presto they just jumped out - I would guess there is NOT a single numeric marvel tat you alone found

That does tend to happen when one reads the same book every day.. presto things jump out. And no I wouldn't say I found it alone at all, in fact in one my last post I referenced the painstaking effort of br. Ansar who counted personally the number of times this life and the hereafter are mentioned in the Quran in equal amount!

.

Its simple really, you don't know how to go from a drug company estimate of say its risk reducing figure to the actual reduced risk for the patient - well anyway so far you have shown no sign that you do.

It is easy to do, you go every three months and check your blood test and liver function and sometimes as well CK levels for myopathy. Is this a trick question? Funny stuff..

You might not want to but millions would with words such as those of David:

Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I will fear no evil, for you are with me; your rod and your staff, they comfort me.

I notice that you mention only that passage every time you think of a consolation from the bible.. What should this passage do for me in light of:
27 [But unto the righteous God will say,] "O thou human being that hast attained to inner peace! 28 Return thou unto thy Sustainer, well-pleased [and] pleasing [Him]: 29 enter, then, together with My [other true] servants - 30 yea, enter thou My paradise!"

You Abraham is described as a 'friend of God' so he like David knew what it meant to say "for you are with me".

God is indeed with the righteous not with those who willed themselves astray!

Never mind the numbers, share with me a similar verse from the Qu'ran

ummmm, I shared with you an entire sura and far better verses speaking of eternal peace and bliss s.. again, you don't bother read or listen, but repeat obsession with every post!

seriously I think you don't need to be writing on this forum but to seek some counseling as to why you bore people into tangents and never bother with the replies given you.

all the best

 

[جوري]

Go and look at http://www.nmsr.org/code19.htm] and you will see how futile all this is with a very simple example - but then I know what you response will be "Ah! they must have made it that way!

actually this is what I got from your page:

Not Found

The requested URL /code19.htm] was not found on this server.
Apache Server at www.nmsr.org Port 80

.. and pls take heed of my reply to your original attempt before ruffling your feathers into a dander storm .. I do have allergies!

all the best

 

[جوري]

Shall we go for even more beautiful even though it wasn't the purpose of this thread..
let's

[MEDIA]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVTT3rBeIrs[/MEDIA]


Surah Adh-Dhuha 1 CONSIDER the bright morning hours, 2 and the night when it grows still and dark.1 3 Thy Sustainer has not forsaken thee, nor does He scorn thee:2 4 for, indeed, the life to come will be better for thee than this earlier part [of thy life]! 5 And, indeed, in time will thy Sustainer grant thee [what thy heart desires], and thou shalt be well-pleased. 6 Has He not found thee an orphan, and given thee shelter?3 7 And found thee lost on thy way, and guided thee? 8 And found thee in want, and given thee sufficiency? 9 Therefore, the orphan shalt thou never wrong, 10 and him that seeks [thy] help shalt thou never chide,4 11 and of thy Sustainer's blessings shalt thou [ever] speak.5
​

 

[CosmicPathos]

Please read the post it clearly say it was a licence number.



He would immediately suspect a fix, a fraud or a joke. Let me ask you if I came to this board with all sorts of numerical marvels from the Bible (and they exist) what would be your response? The fact is it is very easy to find all sort of numerical 'marvels'. Go and look honestly at your mysterious number 19 and see what happens to your critical scientific mind. http://www.nmsr.org/code19.htm or http://www.********************/Nehls/Ask/number19.html



But there are millions examples of this all over the place and these days with computers you can generate a miracle every second for any book at all.



I agree he never intended them in the same way Melville did not intent them in Moby Dick and how can you as a scientist so casually say that every other author intended them - have you any objectivity at all? If the Qu'ran is of any value its because of its message not because of superstition about numbers



This is nonsense, young earth is I think a very recent idea. In any case no early Christian or Jew would bother asking about the cosmos and does Genesis Chapter 1 mean this or that scientifically - they would be asking what has God got to say to use about live and the hear after.

When you say the Qu'ran gets nothing wrong but since you are a scientist I assume that you have looked at alternative views - all of them, no room for doubt or experimentation?

Those numerical things might not have any value by themselves, probably the companions of the Prophet were not even aware that such things existed in Quran. Regardless, I take those numerical "miracles" as a code which ensures that Quran has not been tampered with. Regarding many things can be generated today by computers, sure, that is the whole point! If prophet (pbuh) wrote the quran without any computers, without writing the verses down etc, what caused this amazing prevalence of such coincidental repetitions of numerical figures in the text? The repetition is certainly significant statistically, even if it might not have any apparent real meaning or message for a believer on how to live his/her life. Lack of meaning does not mean that we start denying that something has "numerical repetition" exists. Being a Muslim that I am, I take that extremely improbable occurrence by pure chance only as something from God. You can chose to ignore the presence of such repetitive nature.

 

[Rabi Mansur]

One problem that comes up whenever a text is considered to be "divine" or "inspired" because of the occurrence of a magical number of words, or other specific textual evidence is: Who decides what constitutes proof of the miracle? In other words, what is the standard? Did God ever say that 7 occurrences of 7 heavens is proof the Qur'an is from Allah (swt)?

Without some objective determination, it seems that most proofs end up being subjective to the believer or nonbeliever.

I'm not saying that these "proofs" may or may not be impressive. And for some people, maybe that is proof that Allah (swt) has put in the Qur'an to be discovered by people at a particular moment in time. However, we don't have a standard really to determine if it is just coincidence or something else.

Let me give you an example from another religious text. Portions of the book of Mormon have strong evidence of a literary phenomenon known as Chiasmus. The fact that it has chiasmus is proof to the believer that it must be divine. They think that is evidence of the hand of God. To the nonbeliever, it is just nonsense, pure chance or simply reflects how Joseph Smith's mind worked, but not evidence of truth or inspiration.

The Qur'an itself does give a standard of sorts: produce another like it.
But nowhere have I seen any standard or yardstick beyond that.

Just my 2 cents.

:wa:

 

[جوري]

One problem that comes up whenever a text is considered to be "divine" or "inspired" because of the occurrence of a magical number of words, or other specific textual evidence is: Who decides what constitutes proof of the miracle? In other words, what is the standard? Did God ever say that 7 occurrences of 7 heavens is proof the Qur'an is from Allah (swt)?

Without some objective determination, it seems that most proofs end up being subjective to the believer or nonbeliever.

I'm not saying that these "proofs" may or may not be impressive. And for some people, maybe that is proof that Allah (swt) has put in the Qur'an to be discovered by people at a particular moment in time. However, we don't have a standard really to determine if it is just coincidence or something else.

Let me give you an example from another religious text. Portions of the book of Mormon have strong evidence of a literary phenomenon known as Chiasmus. The fact that it has chiasmus is proof to the believer that it must be divine. They think that is evidence of the hand of God. To the nonbeliever, it is just nonsense, pure chance or simply reflects how Joseph Smith's mind worked, but not evidence of truth or inspiration.

The Qur'an itself does give a standard of sorts: produce another like it.
But nowhere have I seen any standard or yardstick beyond that.

Just my 2 cents.

:wa:

The holy Prophet (Pbuh) himself declared that the miracles of Qur’an will never cease to go on unraveling until the last day.

[SIZE=+2]it never ceases nor does it come to a close. Otherwise, the Holy Qur'an; would deprive future generation of its output of knowledge of miracles. But, Allah, Glory to Him, knows that a few centuries after the revelation of the Holy Qur'an there will be generations alleging that the age of belief was over and that the age of science and technology had dawned.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=+2]For this reason, He embedded within the text of the Holy Qur'an that which is inimitable by people of all ages, of all times, saying: " We will soon show them Our Signs in the Universe and in their own selves until it becomes quite clear to them that it is the truth." Holy Qur'an 41:53.
[/SIZE]

http://voice-of-islam.com/Pg16.html


The Quran to a Muslim is a living constitution directly from the almighty, and until you have that covenant with God can you honestly come to terms with what that means..

there was a tyrant ruler of the Ummayad empire (I can't find the story on the web but maybe a brother or a sister can find it insha'Allah)
every time he'd open the Quran it would come on the verse denoting that his power shall be removed because he is a tyrant, so he threw it on the floor in anger and indeed shortly thereafter his empire was dismantled.

If you think that the Quran is a message to those people from the day of yore and to be visited maybe on weekends or holidays and is some archaic relic of empires dissolved, you are wrong.. it is a breathing living word of God, and is meant for all times for always and as such whatever is in it that might not have made perfect sense to those who came before us, makes perfect sense to us, and perhaps what makes no sense to us will make sense to those in the future..

and Allah swt knows best

 

[جوري]

I just want to add on a separate note:
It will always be the trick and self-satisfaction of Satan and his human warriors to try to find error where none exists to create doubt because doubt is all they can bank on, without doubt how will they go to their grave having laid their life to utter waste, worshiping material objects or human idols..

Islam isn't on the sidelines anymore.. it is front and center as Allah swt promised it shall enter every home:

هُوَ الَّذِي أَرْسَلَ رَسُولَهُ بِالْهُدَى وَدِينِ الْحَقِّ لِيُظْهِرَهُ عَلَى الدِّينِ كُلِّهِ وَلَوْ كَرِهَ الْمُشْرِكُونَ {33}
[SIZE=-1][Pickthal 9:33] He it is Who hath sent His messenger with the guidance and the Religion of Truth, that He may cause it to prevail over all religion, however much the idolaters may be averse.[/SIZE]



so a note to the wise, if cowardice has over taken your soul and battle which on the lowest common denominator should come in the form of a word of truth if which you handle or utter it then say nothing at all and know it in your heart!

and Allah swt knows best

 

[Hugo]

Those numerical things might not have any value by themselves, probably the companions of the Prophet were not even aware that such things existed in Quran. Regardless, I take those numerical "miracles" as a code which ensures that Quran has not been tampered with. Regarding many things can be generated today by computers, sure, that is the whole point! If prophet (pbuh) wrote the quran without any computers, without writing the verses down etc, what caused this amazing prevalence of such coincidental repetitions of numerical figures in the text? The repetition is certainly significant statistically, even if it might not have any apparent real meaning or message for a believer on how to live his/her life. Lack of meaning does not mean that we start denying that something has "numerical repetition" exists. Being a Muslim that I am, I take that extremely improbable occurrence by pure chance only as something from God. You can chose to ignore the presence of such repetitive nature.

They don't have any value and it is also true the God hid most of this even from the Prophet and companions - why would God do that?

Please be aware that is I did not say 'generated' by computers I meant in the sense of found by computers. Some years ago a book was published called 'the Bible code' and using very credible mathematics all sort of predictions were uncovered some of which were shown to be true but for me it was just mumbo-jumbo God is not in my view going to hide his revelation.

I note you say 'computers' but I wonder what you would say if someone came along and by using computers they discover 'other numerical miracles' - I think you would change you mind and take a different view just because its the Qu'ran - only you know.

What can it possibly mean that repetition is statistically significant? I presume you mean that it could not have been by chance? But in the Bible code suppose I argued that those predictions were not there by chance I think you would not believe it and argue against it - so why is that you don't bring your critical powers to bear on these so called numerical miracles otherwise you simply accept them as you seem to be doing without question and go beyond that by saying what cannot possibly be proved to be true, that they were put there by God

 

[Hugo]

actually this is what I got from your page:

Not Found

The requested URL /code19.htm] was not found on this server.
Apache Server at www.nmsr.org Port 80

.. and pls take heed of my reply to your original attempt before ruffling your feathers into a dander storm .. I do have allergies!

all the best

Try

http://www.nmsr.org/code19.htm

 

[Hugo]

That does tend to happen when one reads the same book every day.. presto things jump out. And no I wouldn't say I found it alone at all, in fact in one my last post I referenced the painstaking effort of br. Ansar who counted personally the number of times this life and the hereafter are mentioned in the Quran in equal amount!

Possibly, but you must know that people have counted all sorts of things in all sorts of books and have been doing it for centuries and finding all sort of curious things. In this case, so what? One might also argue that certain idea like night and day. heaven and hell etc in any book are likely to be close to each, it is interesting but that is all other but who cares?

I notice that you mention only that passage every time you think of a consolation from the bible.. What should this passage do for me in light of:
27 [But unto the righteous God will say,] "O thou human being that hast attained to inner peace! 28 Return thou unto thy Sustainer, well-pleased [and] pleasing [Him]: 29 enter, then, together with My [other true] servants - 30 yea, enter thou My paradise!" God is indeed with the righteous not with those who willed themselves astray!

[Just for clarification which translation is this and are the words in brackets yours?]

I shared with you an entire sura and far better verses speaking of eternal peace and bliss s.. again, you don't bother read or listen, but repeat obsession with every post!

This is an interesting verse because it perhaps highlights our ways of thinking in that no Christian would think of themselves as righteous except in as much as God imputes it to then and their whole life is one then of sanctification. Indeed the Bible repeatedly says there is none righteous, no not one.

So in the 23 Psalm you have one who is perhaps in distress and he does not come to God as if he has some account book that is in credit but comes instead in penitence and faith trusting not in any righteousness of their own but trusting in God entirely. Abraham was accepted by God because he believed not because of what he had done. Similarly, Job was considered a righteous man but when he came before God he tell the reader he had nothing to say in his defence[/FONT].

seriously I think you don't need to be writing on this forum but to seek some counseling as to why you bore people into tangents and never bother with the replies given you.

It saddens me to hear such gratuitous abuse and you always have the option of not being bored but to go somewhere else to pour out your invective.

 

[جوري]

Possibly, but you must know that people have counted all sorts of things in all sorts of books and have been doing it for centuries and finding all sort of curious things. In this case, so what? One might also argue that certain idea like night and day. heaven and hell etc in any book are likely to be close to each, it is interesting but that is all other but who cares?

We are not talking about other books, we are talking about the Quran. (which isn't any book) it is the living word of God! I have already labored above on to why this is significant.
I know you don't care, question is why you come to a thread long abandoned (after another thread where you'd met with considerable defeat) and let us know of your not caring? If you don't care you don't care.. usually people who don't care take their interests elsewhere in lieu of letting the world know of their apathy!

I notice that you mention only that passage every time you think of a consolation from the bible.. What should this passage do for me in light of:
27 [But unto the righteous God will say,] "O thou human being that hast attained to inner peace! 28 Return thou unto thy Sustainer, well-pleased [and] pleasing [Him]: 29 enter, then, together with My [other true] servants - 30 yea, enter thou My paradise!" God is indeed with the righteous not with those who willed themselves astray!

[Just for clarification which translation is this and are the words in brackets yours?]

This is Leopold Weiss (Muhammad Asad) translation. You are handy with the computer, google him and you're guaranteed to come up with that.

This is an interesting verse because it perhaps highlights our ways of thinking in that no Christian would think of themselves as righteous except in as much as God imputes it to then and their whole life is one then of sanctification. Indeed the Bible repeatedly says there is none righteous, no not one.

Another reason christianity leaves one empty. dying gods, self-appointed apostles and now no one is good enough, yet if you believe in the dying god act alone you are guaranteed heaven, how counter intuitive.. you know the more you write about your faith the less attractive it becomes.

So in the 23 Psalm you have one who is perhaps in distress and he does not come to God as if he has some account book that is in credit but comes instead in penitence and faith trusting not in any righteousness of their own but trusting in God entirely. Abraham was accepted by God because he believed not because of what he had done. Similarly, Job was considered a righteous man but when he came before God he tell the reader he had nothing to say in his defence

Islam isn't an uni-dimensional as Christianity.. In the beginning and in the end one enters into God's paradise because of God's mercy, not out of a need to believe that god self-immolated to have mercy!
really why all the complexities?

It saddens me to hear such gratuitous abuse and you always have the option of not being bored but to go somewhere else to pour out your invective.

I hope you heed the advise given you not just by my person, but if this is your approach in real life, than I imagine folks will want to flee your company.. not only will they be in a constant need to repeat themselves, but will have to sit through endless tangential tirades that have nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand..


all the best

 

[جوري]

Try

http://www.nmsr.org/code19.htm

I have already replied to this (again go back and read the comment on that particular link)

We are not decoding the Quran for some secret manifesto or end of the world event.
The word repetition and equity of events mentioned through those repetition, is merely another point to the Quran's integrity and inimitably, again I reference you to the original post on the law of combinatorics and that no one would come up with events in equal mention through word repetition and have it flow in that special style of the Quran.

If you'd let the apathy go and take on the Quran challenge, this would be another factor that you'd have to account for in your search to discredit it as a book divine in origin!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

We are not talking about other books, we are talking about the Quran. (which isn't any book) it is the living word of God! I have already labored above on to why this is significant.

Yes I see your point, but it cannot be scientific to treat it as special since by implication it cannot be compared with anything because your mind is closed. This is perhaps the trouble, you inject into the challenge personal spiritual values that cannot be in any way tested and are entirely subjective.

What I find strange is that you often go on about medical testing and the various phases, blinding, significance and so on meaning that every drug or intervention has to go through the same rigour before use. You I think would not let any drug maker come along and say my drug is special and does not have to follow your rules. Why are you equivocal?

What I do and most Biblical scholars do and many Muslim scholars as well is to see it as in two domains - one in which they believe and the other in which they must stand outside and attempt at least to be objective. This is particularly true I feel when it comes to claims about authenticity, miracles, numerology etc. Is this how you see it?

I know you don't care, question is why you come to a thread long abandoned (after another thread where you'd met with considerable defeat) and let us know of your not caring? If you don't care you don't care.. usually people who don't care take their interests elsewhere in lieu of letting the world know of their apathy!

Well that is for others to judge whether I care or not and I am not going to set up a fan club. As to defeats then again it is for others to judge not for me to offer self-praise here or anywhere else. But there is a Biblical saying that goes "render to no man (or woman) evil for evil" and we all, including you should take that to heart don't you agree?

Another reason christianity leaves one empty. dying gods, self-appointed apostles and now no one is good enough, yet if you believe in the dying god act alone you are guaranteed heaven, how counter intuitive.. you know the more you write about your faith the less attractive it becomes.

Well, is a Muslim good enough for God? I am puzzled how does one get to heaven because although I know very very good people I don't know any one who feels they are good enough. Christians do not keep the law because they fear punishment but they do it out of love for God, when you love some one its not a matter of rules it goes way beyond that. I would not for example cheat on my wife because the law says that is bad but because I cannot bear the thought that I would hurt and disappoint her, see the hurt and suffering in here eyes. Do you think in like manner that God feels nothing because of our sin?

Islam isn't an uni-dimensional as Christianity.. In the beginning and in the end one enters into God's paradise because of God's mercy, not out of a need to believe that god self-immolated to have mercy!

We have been here before and it is not a matter for this thread but how does it work, how does a holy and just God cancel your sin?

[Who or what is this self-immolating God you speak of?]

I hope you heed the advise given you not just by my person, but if this is your approach in real life, than I imagine folks will want to flee your company.. not only will they be in a constant need to repeat themselves, but will have to sit through endless tangential tirades that have nothing at all to do with the discussion at hand..

Well I am happy to get adviCe from any one and I will consider it. But are you above taking advice? Flee my company - interesting idea from one who follows me all over this board - only teasing!

 

[Muhammad]

and Greetings,

It appears this thread is turning into a similar one that was closed recently. We also seem to have wandered somewhat from the original purpose of this thread.

If people are truly serious in studying the Qur'an, they should focus on its primary aspects. One of the main reasons why some people are not receiving much guidance from the Qur'an is because they are emphasising aspects of it that are not the main reasons for which it was revealed.

Thread closed.