Threat of Hell, Promise of Heavan

[syilla]

if someone really fear of hell...and he/she really knows and feels how the hell is like...

i'm sure...that person will scared to even wake up from their sleep...

so...they can say they are fear of hell...but do they really afraid of the hell?
i doubt that...

well...that same goes to me...i said i'm afraid...but i still don't use my time effectively

 

[Pygoscelis]

I'm not sure if you're saying the reason for their deconversion is because the fear of hell, but if it was then wouldn't they still believe in hell anyways, whether they deconverted or not? I mean if they became athiests then it's like saying you're demolishing the existing of hell, (which you really aren't because its reason of your deconversion) and you just choose to disbelieve in it because you fear it.

No, they didn't deconvert because of Hell. Quite to the contrary. Hell worked strongly AGAINST their deconversion. In many cases it slowed their deconversion down and they tell me of some of their Christian friends that may have deconverted had it not been for the threat of hell.

They were led to believe by their Christian leaders that they would risk going to hell by losing belief and therefore they did not want to even think about any doubt. They could not afford to.

I think it is similar to how you sometimes see in their believers the belief that "There exist no deconverts". They can not fathom the idea that somebody would leave their religion, because that would raise a doubt. Instead of admitting that somebody can be a deconvert they will claim that the person was never a true Christian to begin with. This is a Very common claim against deconverts and a very frustrating one for them.

 

[*charisma*]

Hey,

No, they didn't deconvert because of Hell. Quite to the contrary. Hell worked strongly AGAINST their deconversion. In many cases it slowed their deconversion down and they tell me of some of their Christian friends that may have deconverted had it not been for the threat of hell.

They were led to believe by their Christian leaders that they would risk going to hell by losing belief and therefore they did not want to even think about any doubt. They could not afford to.

ah, ok, thanks for the clarification.

I think it is similar to how you sometimes see in their believers the belief that "There exist no deconverts". They can not fathom the idea that somebody would leave their religion, because that would raise a doubt. Instead of admitting that somebody can be a deconvert they will claim that the person was never a true Christian to begin with. This is a Very common claim against deconverts and a very frustrating one for them.

I think there is some truth to that. Some aren't practicing their religion first off to begin with because they don't feel a connection with it. Others don't feel it clicks with them and search for a new religion that is more suitable or logical for their lifestyle..everyone is different. It depends on their way of thinking and how much of their religion they really know.

Many of the Christians and Catholics that I've met for example, barely know anything, or they'll only know the general teachings and don't bother learning more because it bores them and they believe in the end God will forgive them if they sincerely repent. Well that's only from my experiences with the nonmuslims.

peace

 

[Woodrow]

In my opinion most Christian religions are quite a bit stricter and more rigid than Islam is. Although my only personal experience with Christianity was as a Catholic. But some of the things that were found to be so strict was the combination of Biblical rules and Church law. Some examples as a kid.

the 5 daily prayers morning, bed time, and before each meal
the 40 day fast for lent and the intent to permentaly give up at least one item for all time not just for that lenten period, The daily mass at church mandatory for Sundays but, very strongly enforced for everyday,

Those were fairly easy and differ little from what I now practice. but then we had the mandatory Church laws

Weekly confession of our sins to the priest
one meal and no meat on fridays
Unpure thoughts seen as sins even if not acted upon
No self interpretation of the Bible, actually Bible reading as an individual was discouged back when I was a kid. The memorization of the prayers, Weekly attendence for CYO (Catholic Youth Organization), Memorization of the church litinies, Alter boy training, Daily recitation of the rosary, Plus many other rules.

I believe that what we see as todays rampant immorality among many Christians is a revolt against the centuries of restrictions. The rules are still there, but people are fed up with them and show it by violating all they were taught.

 

[SirZubair]

The fire of hell is like a Purifier for Muslims.

We will stay in the fire for some time, our sins will be removed, we will be purified and will enter heaven, insha'allah.

 

[- Qatada -]

The fire of hell is like a Purifier for Muslims.

We will stay in the fire for some time, our sins will be removed, we will be purified and will enter heaven, insha'allah.

Just like a blacksmith init Metals are burned; the good that comes out will be worth something and will escape the fire, whereas those that aren't worth anything will be thrown away to remain in the fire. Allaah Almighty know's best.


:salamext:

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: "Believe in God or burn in hell forever"

No one is forcing you to believe... Those of us who do.... have tons of other legitimate reasons for worship other than fear of hell's fire....... You are getting an infantile notion out of it simply because you are putting it in a very low common denominator........ not because that is all that religion entails.....If I were to put it in the very least... I'd say religion has set laws to govern mankind from moral and social degeneracy; and like any system including the sophisticated societal one, it is established on what it is you'll get out of it.......

Nicely put.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

No, they didn't deconvert because of Hell. Quite to the contrary. Hell worked strongly AGAINST their deconversion. In many cases it slowed their deconversion down and they tell me of some of their Christian friends that may have deconverted had it not been for the threat of hell.

If you allow me I would like to compare this with a rather simplistic example.
Let's say three blind man are about to walk into a wall. All three their sticks tell them there is a wall in front of them. the first one hesitates, but then decides not to follow his stick and just run along. The second says to the third, you know I don't believe in the wall. I think these sticks are lying in order to keep us away from that area by treath of an imagened wall.

Yes it's true, the notion of hell is threathening, and it gets people to clean their act up. We never denied that. And when someone has doubts in his fate, this issue will certainly be bothersome. But that is no reason to assume the whole thing is false.

It is my belief that the threat of heall and promise of heaven are only as effective as the belief in them. So this threat and promise are useful to keep believers from questioning but useless to bring in new converts.

If you don't believe hell exists, being told you will go there unless you change your belief is just going to leave you wondering

Well I would say that the notion of hell and heaven is only a threath when you interpretet it as such. You could ust as well see it as a fair and friendly warning of things to come. See it cuts both ways, and nobody will be dealth with unjustly, so why would you interpretet that notion as threathening? Crisis of conscience?

 

[Pygoscelis]

See it cuts both ways, and nobody will be dealth with unjustly, so why would you interpretet that notion as threathening? Crisis of conscience?

I see eternal torture for not doing as prescribed as a threat. Heaven/Hell is just about the purest reward/punishment mechanism I can think of.

 

[Trumble]

Well I would say that the notion of hell and heaven is only a threath when you interpretet it as such. You could ust as well see it as a fair and friendly warning of things to come. See it cuts both ways, and nobody will be dealth with unjustly...

That rather depends on whether 'justice' is absolute or relative. I have yet to encounter anything in the world that indicates it is the former.

 

[Umar001]

Well there are famous 'Christian' converts from Islam, because basically, they wanted to be promised paradise.

 

[Malaikah]

That rather depends on whether 'justice' is absolute or relative. I have yet to encounter anything in the world that indicates it is the former.

Justice is very absolute when we are talking about God- He is 'The Just' after all.

 

[Abdul Fattah]

I see eternal torture for not doing as prescribed as a threat. Heaven/Hell is just about the purest reward/punishment mechanism I can think of.

Yeh I got that, but you missed my point.
When you were a kid, did you consider santa claus a treath? He works with punishment/reward to right? So when you heared about him, did you consider it a threath or were you happy?

 

[Abdul Fattah]

That rather depends on whether 'justice' is absolute or relative. I have yet to encounter anything in the world that indicates it is the former.

that is because in this world there is frredom of choice. Freedom of choice means that there is no justice or at least not always in this world, since that would defeat the purpose of freedom of choice.

So you're wrong to judge the justice of judgementday by the justice of this world, it's not just.

 

[Woodrow]

When I reverted I had no thoughts about heaven or hell. That was not my reason to revert. To be honest I did not search for God(swt), I had no reason to worry about Heaven or Hell and could think of no reason to even think that God(swt) good possibly have any interest in us.

I guess my believe in God(swt) comes from Him finding me, not me looking for any comfort or peace of mind. I did not come to God(swt) easily, he had to rap me on the head a few times and drag me kicking and screaming in protest.

Any threat of hell or any promise of heaven had no bearing on my finaly accepting God(swt). I doubt if I am the only one who is Muslim, because of what may happen after death. To me that is a fringe benefit not a reason.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Yeh I got that, but you missed my point.
When you were a kid, did you consider santa claus a treath? He works with punishment/reward to right? So when you heared about him, did you consider it a threath or were you happy?

Santa has a lot on God. The worst Santa is going to do to you is put some coal in a stocking. That's not much of a threat, no. Coal actually has its uses.

That and Sanata only cares if you are good or bad, not if you believe in him.

 

[جوري]

please let's not put God with Santa, the tooth fairy or Easter bunny or other fictional characters in the same category. It is disrespectful in so man ways I have lost count. If an atheist member wishes to assimilate between fictional cartoon characters with God please I ask that the theists on the forum just not respond. ..
Thank you!

 

[syilla]

In my opinion most Christian religions are quite a bit stricter and more rigid than Islam is. Although my only personal experience with Christianity was as a Catholic. But some of the things that were found to be so strict was the combination of Biblical rules and Church law. Some examples as a kid.

the 5 daily prayers morning, bed time, and before each meal
the 40 day fast for lent and the intent to permentaly give up at least one item for all time not just for that lenten period, The daily mass at church mandatory for Sundays but, very strongly enforced for everyday,

Those were fairly easy and differ little from what I now practice. but then we had the mandatory Church laws

Weekly confession of our sins to the priest
one meal and no meat on fridays
Unpure thoughts seen as sins even if not acted upon
No self interpretation of the Bible, actually Bible reading as an individual was discouged back when I was a kid. The memorization of the prayers, Weekly attendence for CYO (Catholic Youth Organization), Memorization of the church litinies, Alter boy training, Daily recitation of the rosary, Plus many other rules.

I believe that what we see as todays rampant immorality among many Christians is a revolt against the centuries of restrictions. The rules are still there, but people are fed up with them and show it by violating all they were taught.

then how come...if i asked the christians...they said christians are quite flexible and not strict like islam...

 

[Woodrow]

then how come...if i asked the christians...they said christians are quite flexible and not strict like islam...

Depends on what denomination you speak to. There are very many denominations. Some, such as Catholochism, Greek Orthodox and Russian orthodox are ver strict and very rigid. Some are very lenient and liberal and do allow many things and have very few strict rules to follow.

My exposure to Christianity was as a Catholic and at that time it was very rigid and very strict.

 

[syilla]

Depends on what denomination you speak to. There are very many denominations. Some, such as Catholochism, Greek Orthodox and Russian orthodox are ver strict and very rigid. Some are very lenient and liberal and do allow many things and have very few strict rules to follow.

My exposure to Christianity was as a Catholic and at that time it was very rigid and very strict.

thank you...