Throne, Chair, Hands, Shin - Interpetation

[Link]

I want to discuss the different interpetations regarding these words in the Quran and hadiths

I think from what i know, basically, there two views about hands and shin

and maybe 3 different views about throne and chair

may Allah (SwT) help us in this discussion and increase our knowledge about tawheed

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation


Good topic. Perhaps you would like to pick a term and verse and we can discuss it from there.

 

[Link]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation



sure bro, i will start with these three verses regarding the arsh

11:7

YUSUFALI: He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. But if thou wert to say to them, "Ye shall indeed be raised up after death", the Unbelievers would be sure to say, "This is nothing but obvious sorcery!"
PICKTHAL: And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water - that He might try you, which of you is best in conduct. Yet if thou (O Muhammad) sayest: Lo! ye will be raised again after death! those who disbelieve will surely say: This is naught but mere magic.
SHAKIR: And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods-- and His dominion (extends) on the water-- that He might manifest to you, which of you is best in action, and if you say, surely you shall be raised up after death, those who disbelieve would certainly say: This is nothing but clear magic.

69:17

YUSUFALI: And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them.
PICKTHAL: And the angels will be on the sides thereof, and eight will uphold the Throne of thy Lord that day, above them.
SHAKIR: And the angels shall be on the sides thereof; and above ) I them eight shall bear on that day your Lord's power.

20:5

YUSUFALI: (Allah) Most Gracious is firmly established on the throne (of authority).
PICKTHAL: The Beneficent One, Who is established on the Throne.
SHAKIR: The Beneficent Allah is firm in power.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation

Link,

For more info on Allah's attributes refer to http://www.load-islam.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108

Our position on this is very simple. Allah swt most certainly has a throne because He has said so. However, the nature of this throne is unknown to us, but of surety it is only what befits His Majesty.

What is your understanding of these verses?

 

[Link]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation

I think the main differnces occur here when we say if allah azzawajjal is ABOVE the throne. The sufi's tell the sunnis that the ahle hadith have deviated because the ahle hadith say allah is above the throne. Even though the Qur'an mentions istiwaa (above the throne) over 7 times!!!!And there are numerous authentic hadith which mention allah above the throne, above the creation.

if saying God physically moved from one place to one place is not itself shirk, and God-forbid i accept this, then Allah (swt) saying he created the earth then rose on the throne, would it not imply that the earth is flat, or did Allah (nauthoballah) expand as he went up?

 

[Link]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation

Link,

For more info on Allah's attributes refer to http://www.load-islam.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1108

Our position on this is very simple. Allah swt most certainly has a throne because He has said so. However, the nature of this throne is unknown to us, but of surety it is only what befits His Majesty.

What is your understanding of these verses?

Assalamu alaicom

I will be posting my understanding of them soon inshallah

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation

if saying God physically moved from one place to one place is not itself shirk

Ibn Kathir has explained Istiwa as turned to, as in turning one's attention to something. This is completely acceptable.

then Allah (swt) saying he created the earth then rose on the throne, would it not imply that the earth is flat, or did Allah (nauthoballah) expand as he went up?

No, He ascends, but in a manner that befits His Majesty. You are think of Allah swt as an object movinbg around in this Universe, but Allah swt is beyond the confines of our universe. We don't understand how Allah swt ascends, our minds cannot comprehend such.

 

[kadafi]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation

I think the main differnces occur here when we say if allah azzawajjal is ABOVE the throne. The sufi's tell the sunnis that the ahle hadith have deviated because the ahle hadith say allah is above the throne. Even though the Qur'an mentions istiwaa (above the throne) over 7 times!!!!And there are numerous authentic hadith which mention allah above the throne, above the creation.

Brother, do not differentiate between the Salafis and Ahl al-Sunnah.

The Ahl al-Sunnah are those who follow the Sahaabah and the path of the Salaf (the early generations of Islam). These are not two distinct groups, and the Salafis are not a more specific group!

According to the terminology that is well known, the Salaf are the Sahaabah and those who follow their path, and the Ahl al-Sunnah are those who follow the Sunnah of the Messenger (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). They are the ones concerning whom the hadeeth was reported: “Whoever follows the same path as me and my Companions” (The hadeeth about the saved group).

Stirring up disputes and conflict on the grounds of names alone is not permissible. Allaah has commanded the believers to be united and has forbidden them to be divided and warned them against that.

The individual’s aim must be to seek the truth, and when he speaks he should say what is fair and just, and not hate individuals in such a way that his hatred makes him reject the truth that the person is saying, or look for faults in him. He should not come up with things that are ambiguous or far-fetched for that purpose. This is not the way of Ahl al-Sunnah, and the Muslim has to like for his brother what he likes for himself. He must be sincere towards him, and hold love and sincerity in his heart.
Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah al-Ghunaymaan (www.islam-qa.com)

Even though the Qur'an mentions istiwaa (above the throne) over 7 times!!!!And there are numerous authentic hadith which mention allah above the throne, above the creation.

That's correct, Allah (Exalted is He) is above his Throne.

It is proven in the Qur’aan and Sunnah and by the consensus (ijmaa’) of the salaf (early generations) of this ummah that Allaah is above His heavens on His Throne, and that He is the Exalted, Most High. He is Above all things, and there is nothing that is above Him. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“Allaah it is He Who has created the heavens and the earth, and all that is between them in six Days. Then He rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). You (mankind) have none, besides Him, as a Wali (protector or helper) or an intercessor. Will you not then remember (or receive admonition)?”
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[al-Sajdah 32:4]

“Surely, your Lord is Allaah Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (really in a manner that suits His Majesty), disposing the affair of all things [Yoonus 10:3]

“To Him ascend (all) the goodly words, and the righteous deeds exalt it (i.e. the goodly words are not accepted by Allaah unless and until they are followed by good deeds) [Faatir 35:10]
​

“He is the First (nothing is before Him) and the Last (nothing is after Him), the Most High (nothing is above Him) and the Most Near (nothing is nearer than Him) [al-Hadeed 57:3]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “You are the Most High and there is nothing above You…”

There are many similar ayaat and ahaadeeth. But at the same time, Allaah tells us that He is with His slaves wherever they are:

“Have you not seen that Allaah knows whatsoever is in the heavens and whatsoever is on the earth? There is no Najwa (secret counsel) of three but He is their fourth (with His Knowledge, while He Himself is over the Throne, over the seventh heaven), — nor of five but He is their sixth (with His Knowledge), — nor of less than that or more but He is with them (with His Knowledge) wheresoever they may be” [al-Mujaadilah 58:7]

Allaah has combined mention of His being above His Throne with mention of His being with His slaves in one aayah, where He says (interpretation of the meaning):

“He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days and then rose over (Istawaa) the Throne (in a manner that suits His Majesty). He knows what goes into the earth and what comes forth from it, and what descends from the heaven and what ascends thereto. And He is with you (by His Knowledge) wheresoever you may be[al-Hadeed 57:4]
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Saying that Allaah is with us does not mean that He is mixed with (or dwells in) His creation; rather He is with His slaves by His knowledge. He is above His Throne and nothing is hidden from Him of what they do. With regard to the aayah (interpretation of the meaning):

“And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge)” [Qaaf 50:16]

- most of the mufassireen said that what is meant is that He is near by means of His angels whose task it is to record people’s deeds. And those who said that it means that He is near explained it as meaning that He is near by His knowledge, as is said concerning how He is with us.

This is the view of Ahl al-Sunnah wa’l-Jamaa’ah, who affirm that Allaah is above His creation and that He is also with His slaves, and they state that He is far above dwelling in His created beings. With regard to the denial of all Divine attributes as voiced by the Jahamiyyah and their followers, they deny that His Essence is above His creatures and that He rose above His Throne, and they say that He is present in His Essence everywhere. We ask Allaah to guide the Muslims.


Islam-qa.com

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation

Brother, do not differentiate between the Salafis and Ahl al-Sunnah.

Exactly. The salafis are those amongst Ahlus-Sunnah who reject innovation and devitation and adhere to the way of the pious predecessors.

 

[Link]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation



before i show my view of the arsh, i would like to see your interpetations, of the chair, hands, eyes, shin, in the Quran and hadiths, and also would like to see the interpetation of the hadiths in which states Allah (swt) created Adam in his own image

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation



Allah created Adam in his (Adam's) image.

Meaning that Adam was created as an Adult. He was created in the final image without growth.

 

[Link]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation



here are some hadiths, plz refer to the 2nd one plz

Muslim (2612) narrated that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of fights his brother, let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in His image.”

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim narrated in al-Sunnah (517) that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say ‘May Allaah deform your face’ [a form of cursing in Arabic], for the son of Adam was created in the image of the Most Merciful.” Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Ghunaymaan (may Allaah preserve him) said: “This hadeeth is saheeh and was classed as such by the imams and by Imam Ahmad and Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh. Those who classed it as da’eef have no evidence, except for the view of Ibn Khuzaymah, but those who classed it as saheeh are more knowledgeable than him.

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim also narrated (516) that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you fights let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in the image of His Face.” Shaykh al-Albaani said: its isnaad is saheeh.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

This is indicated by the words of the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him): “The first group to be admitted to Paradise will be in the image of the moon on the night when it is full.” Narrated by al-Bukhaari, 3327; Muslim, 2834.*

What is the meaning of that hadith? Obviously we won't resemble the moon like some rocks, etc. But the understanding is that it is in terms of radiance and beauty.

 

[Link]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation

Assalamu alaicom

bro, if u can explain your last post in a greater detail, it would be appreciated, else, i think it would just make things more confusing

(nvm, this post, i was refering to the post previous to the last one before u posted the last one)

 

[Link]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation



all that is left now, is the interpetations, of the chair, hands, eyes, shin, in the Quran and hadiths

 

[Uthman]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation



Yes, we are humans and may never know. The thing is, does it really matter? However, it makes far more sense to take the metaphorical meaning.

 

[أحمد]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation



Dear fellow muslims, before we start saying that Adam was created in (Na'uoothubillah bin thaalik) Allah's image, we have to look at the hadeeth. The hadeeth is Saheeh, but here there seem's to be an un-necessary mis-understanding. Here's the Hadeeth:

حَدَّثَنَا يَحْيَى بْنُ جَعْفَرٍ حَدَّثَنَا عَبْدُ الرَّزَّاقِ عَنْ مَعْمَرٍ عَنْ هَمَّامٍ عَنْ أَبِى هُرَيْرَةَ عَنِ النَّبِىِّ - صلى الله عليه وسلم - قَالَ « خَلَقَ اللَّهُ آدَمَ عَلَى صُورَتِهِ ، طُولُهُ سِتُّونَ ذِرَاعًا ، فَلَمَّا خَلَقَهُ قَالَ اذْهَبْ فَسَلِّمْ عَلَى أُولَئِكَ النَّفَرِ مِنَ الْمَلاَئِكَةِ جُلُوسٌ ، فَاسْتَمِعْ مَا يُحَيُّونَكَ ، فَإِنَّهَا تَحِيَّتُكَ وَتَحِيَّةُ ذُرِّيَّتِكَ . فَقَالَ السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكُمْ . فَقَالُوا السَّلاَمُ عَلَيْكَ وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ . فَزَادُوهُ وَرَحْمَةُ اللَّهِ ، فَكُلُّ مَنْ يَدْخُلُ الْجَنَّةَ عَلَى صُورَةِ آدَمَ ، فَلَمْ يَزَلِ الْخَلْقُ يَنْقُصُ بَعْدُ حَتَّى الآنَ

Now the meaning of what image Adam was created in; you'll understand Insha-Allah, if you understand arabic. I'll explain the main statement of it anyway:

خَلَقَ اللَّهُ آدَمَ عَلَى صُورَتِهِ
Allah created Adam in his (Adam's) image, meaning Adam was not created as an embryo, nor was he born.

طُولُهُ سِتُّونَ ذِرَاعًا
At the height of sixty cubits, now it is obvious shirk to give height to Allah, so I hope you understand that the height was Adam's, but not Allah's, just as the image was Adam's; not Allah's.

Anyway, you shouldn't argue on issues which are obviously ones which lead to major sins . . . :zip:

 

[Uthman]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation



Yeah!

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim narrated in al-Sunnah (517) that Ibn ‘Umar said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Do not say ‘May Allaah deform your face’ [a form of cursing in Arabic], for the son of Adam was created in the image of the Most Merciful.” Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn al-Ghunaymaan (may Allaah preserve him) said: “This hadeeth is saheeh and was classed as such by the imams and by Imam Ahmad and Ishaaq ibn Raahawayh. Those who classed it as da’eef have no evidence, except for the view of Ibn Khuzaymah, but those who classed it as saheeh are more knowledgeable than him.

Ibn Abi ‘Aasim also narrated (516) that Abu Hurayrah said: The Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “When any one of you fights let him avoid the face, for Allaah created Adam in the image of His Face.” Shaykh al-Albaani said: its isnaad is saheeh.

The meaning may be Saheeh but not the wording. I think these are inferences based on the first hadeth that Adam was created in his image.

And even if you take it as Adam in Allah's image, that humans reflect a tiny portion of Allah's mercy, power and radiance. Like the moon hadith I showed you.

Anyway, did you want to move on to next topic, or which point did you want to discuss?

 

[Link]

Re: Throne, chair, hands, shin--interpetation

The meaning may be Saheeh but not the wording. I think these are inferences based on the first hadeth that Adam was created in his image.

And even if you take it as Adam in Allah's image, that humans reflect a tiny portion of Allah's mercy, power and radiance. Like the moon hadith I showed you.

Anyway, did you want to move on to next topic, or which point did you want to discuss?

actually there is very beautiful and informative meaning which is perhaps just a deeper explanation to your answer--I agree with your point but i believe in deeper expansion to that

but i was refering to was that i was waiting for the interpetation of the kursi, hands, eyes, etc. in the Quran and hadith

mainly do u believe Allah (Swt) has hands, eyes, etc.. or do u take the meanings metaphorically