Truth

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People like Hugo argue about Quran, and Scientific Test or putting Quran through the Test to prove whether it is the Word of God or not...

While completely forgetting the Fact and overlooking the fact that Quran is the ONLY book with Ancient Semetic Language on Earth, which still remains unchanged...

Unless otherwise Hugo can prove that Quran's Arabic has been changed, then we can see whether the Book is changed or not.... the Miracle of Quran is that the Arabic Language in which it is found, is the only Ancient Language on Planet Earth, which STILL remains unchanged...

Another big reason why Bible went through so many changes was because the Original Language it was revealed in , is completely lost today! That is why they had to use other languages to translate them, which made it loose its originality, not forgetting interpolations being made with the translations.... Beauty of Quran is that Arabic has not gone through ANY changes! Unless Hugo can prove that One Quran is different from the Other... he is rejecting because he is Stubborn, no other reason...
 
The Quran answers people like you.... why they would NOT have effect on you...]
(17:45) When you recite the Qur'an, We place a hidden barrier between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter
(17:46) and We place a covering on their hearts so that they do not comprehend it, and We cause a heaviness in their ears; and when you mention your Lord, the Only True Lord, in the Qur'an, they turn their backs in aversion. just like i said, your wasting ours and your time...

Well don't waste any time go elsewhere if you have nothing to say and don't want to hear. You might like to know there is a Biblical verse in Matthew 13:15 "For this people's heart has become calloused; they hardly hear with their ears, and they have closed their eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts and turn, and I would heal them.' - so maybe indeed be you that is not hearing what God has to say.
 
John Lock writing in 1690 said "He that takes away reason to make room for revelation puts out the light of both; it's as if we persuade a man to put out his eyes, the better to receive the remote light of an invisible star by a telescope." So science shows us more of God not less.

Of course you can feel confidence in the Qu'ran but it does seem to stretch credulity too far to say science is primitive and at the same time accept without it seems question a revelation with a single witness and no possibility of corroboration - as you say you can believe whatever you want but surely we must not abandon reason in the process?
Free reasoning devoid of all kinds of Higher Guidance, is leading the West towards its destruction.... we Muslims use reason, but let it be guided by Our revelation, as NO revelation, not only us but makes our decisions very dangerous for the whole society and that is why based on Pure reasoning, Great immoralities like Homosexuality , alcoholism and Strip clubs are being promoted in the West , while smoking at Public places is being told as worst than all the above.... because The West Uses its free Reason devoid of Revelation to determine right and wrong, which is actually making it overlook its real Problems of the Society.....mankind is in need of revelation to guide them and their own minds are NOT sufficient....

The corroboration of a Revelation is when you implement and see whether the effects of that Revelation will have any positive effects on the Society.... when implementing Man made laws Vs Quranic Laws, it clearly shows which are more blessing for a society.... thats also one way you can put Quran to test....would you like to ? Or are you going to run away again ?
 
People like Hugo argue about Quran, and Scientific Test or putting Quran through the Test to prove whether it is the Word of God or not...
Nowhere have I said there is a test to prove the Qu'ran or Bible or indeed any scripture is truly from God - what I have said is that such a test does NOT exist.
While completely forgetting the Fact and overlooking the fact that Quran is the ONLY book with Ancient Semetic Language on Earth, which still remains unchanged...
Well I would dispute this so called fact but it proves nothing with regard to it being from God - all it would prove is that it is unchanged, nothing else. You are inventing a test that goes in one direction only. Here is another test, it is a fact the Qu'ran contains stories found elsewhere so it is not unique and therefore cannot be from God

Unless otherwise Hugo can prove that Quran's Arabic has been changed, then we can see whether the Book is changed or not.... the Miracle of Quran is that the Arabic Language in which it is found, is the only Ancient Language on Planet Earth, which STILL remains unchanged...
This is just rubbish as there are 100s of Arabic dialects. Ancient Greek remains unchanged and every dead language remains unchanged. Arabic did not arise on its own and comes out of other earlier Semitic languages - it is not an isolate is it.

Another big reason why Bible went through so many changes was because the Original Language it was revealed in , is completely lost today! That is why they had to use other languages to translate them, which made it loose its originality, not forgetting interpolations being made with the translations.... Beauty of Quran is that Arabic has not gone through ANY changes! Unless Hugo can prove that One Quran is different from the Other... he is rejecting because he is Stubborn, no other reason...
What languages are you talking about? The OT was in Hebrew and that is still in use today. The NT is in ancient Greek which is not used today but is as well know as any language on the planet. If you are speaking of Aramaic well that is also known though not in general use. But so what? It is an interesting point but nothing more and in general a language that stands still is a dead language which cannot be used because one cannot express modern ideas in it and new ideas will occur in the future making it even more obscure than it is today.
 
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The NT is in ancient Greek which is not used today but is as well know as any language on the planet. If you are speaking of Aramaic well that is also known though not in general use. But so what? It is an interesting point but nothing more and in general a language that stands still is a dead language which cannot be used because one cannot express modern ideas in it and new ideas will occur in the future making it even more obscure than it is today
Any word written in the New Testament from Aramaic given to any Christian child cannot be read by him/her unless they have learnt how to recite in Aramaic, which even the Priests who teach Christianity dont know the language either! While Quran even though it was in Arabic it can still be recited by any Muslim Child and even if you were to burn every QURAN scripture on earth, millions of hearts have it stored in them , the Quran in ARABIC which is original form revealed... not unlike New Testament, which we dont even know who translated them from Aramaic to Greek ? No record whatsoever.... and then the Errors in the New Testament, bro i don't even want to go there

The modern ideas can only come from a Revelation which is beyond space and time, because only then it can be for all ages! Unlike Bible whether new or old testament, the need to run away and hide in Secularism which happened in the West, because it could NOT solve the Problems of their World.... ONLY a true revelation of God, who HImself is beyond space and time, can be applied for al ages and it should show Blessings not only for our age but also Future Generations.....

How much do you know about Quran ? Quran has every word in Arabic which has many meanings, because the shades of meanings which come out of every words, shows its richness and the deep grammar that it carries which opens for us many doors to knowledge.... could you say the same about Aramaic ? And how if you could ?

The Scripture being lost from its originality shows its fallibilty! Quran can even solve the Problems of the Modern West which struggles to save itself from Moral Destruction! only an ignorant person who does not know anything about Quran, would speak against it. as every post of my reflects your ignorance.
 
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This is just rubbish as there are 100s of Arabic dialects. Ancient Greek remains unchanged and every dead language remains unchanged. Arabic did not arise on its own and comes out of other earlier Semitic languages - it is not an isolate is it.

the Original Arabic which is ancient Arabic and still can be found spoken by Bedouin Arabs in deserts, even though different from New Arabic dialects, but still the New Arabic dialect speakers, even for them it is VERY easy to recite Quran.... its about Whether the Book can still be recited and pondered in its original form... the ancient Arabic can still be Learned from Madrassah's while Aramaic is not even taught by any Priest!
 
Ancient Greek remains unchanged and every dead language remains unchanged.

show me a book of Guidance, which is Truly Universal for all mankind in Greek ? Will you please ?
 
Nowhere have I said there is a test to prove the Qu'ran or Bible or indeed any scripture is truly from God - what I have said is that such a test does NOT exist.

Such test does Exist.... since God is Above Space and time, then the Revelation which is a True one should work for all Ages.... because only such a Revelation would be able to solve the Problems of Humanity in Present, have done it in the Past, and should be able to do it in future, which is itself Beyond Space and Time... everything in Space and time changes, but God does NOT change otherwise he is not god then!

If you claim Bible is for all ages then put it through Test and See whether it has the ability to solve the Problems of Humanity ... and if it does NOT then you could agree that such a Book is not worthy of Being called a Pure Revelation, because it has interpolation , which even you by now seeing so many errors in the Bible should be able to accept, but since your stubborn person, you could put the Bible through a Test and see whether it is Fallible or Not... and compare it with Errors in Quran, which you have already admitted that there is no way for you to prove....

so now if youd like to we can put Quran through the Test and it should be able to answer the Modern Age which even the Capitalism, Democracy and Communism are also struggling against, only because it comes from Some One (God) who is beyond Space and Time....

If you don't want to , then its fine, then you should admit... that you come here just to waste time!
 
its a point of personal perspective, the more one trains the mind to a thought process the less likely the brain is to bring an opposing perspective spontaneously. even improving on something can come at the cost of losing objectivity. its an easy concept to grasp.
lol i would say today it is the opposite anology to that of the middle ages, you are much more likely to be locked up for disagreeing with science!
i dont doubt the concepts of natural laws and evidence which can be experimentally repeated... it is the way in which they are used that i dont quite trust.

John Lock writing in 1690 said "He that takes away reason to make room for revelation puts out the light of both; it's as if we persuade a man to put out his eyes, the better to receive the remote light of an invisible star by a telescope."

i understand, not many are willing to turn there backs on the world.
 
Any word written in the New Testament from Aramaic given to any Christian child cannot be read by him/her unless they have learnt how to recite in Aramaic, which even the Priests who teach Christianity dont know the language either! While Quran even though it was in Arabic it can still be recited by any Muslim Child and even if you were to burn every QURAN scripture on earth, millions of hearts have it stored in them , the Quran in ARABIC which is original form revealed... not unlike New Testament, which we dont even know who translated them from Aramaic to Greek ? No record whatsoever.... and then the Errors in the New Testament, bro i don't even want to go there
The NT was not translated from Aramaic it was written in Greek right from the start. The Greeks invaded Israel long before the Romans got there so Greek itself was well known and indeed particularly well known in Galilee. Just as in Arabia at the time of Mohammed there were many dialects but one was chosen so it is not surprising in any way that Jesus spoke Aramaic and his message was written down in Greek since that was the lingua Franca of the world at that time. What point are you trying to make since there are millions of Muslims who can recite the whole Qu'ran without understanding a word of it so they will never know they are reciting a story that God said a man can marry his adopted sons ex-wife or that Moses was struck down by lightning and then raised to life again so that he could thank God for doing it - and then the errors in the Qu'ran, bro I don't want to go there.

The modern ideas can only come from a Revelation which is beyond space and time, because only then it can be for all ages! Unlike Bible whether new or old testament, the need to run away and hide in Secularism which happened in the West, because it could NOT solve the Problems of their World.... ONLY a true revelation of God, who HImself is beyond space and time, can be applied for al ages and it should show Blessings not only for our age but also Future Generations.....
This is total absurdity - the laser, the jet engine, penicillin are modern ideas so show me what revelation brought these and millions of others about so if the Qu'ran is a revelation it cannot tell us everything can it? If I want to build a bridge I don't look in the Qu'ran or hadith do I?
How much do you know about Quran ? Quran has every word in Arabic which has many meanings, because the shades of meanings which come out of every words, shows its richness and the deep grammar that it carries which opens for us many doors to knowledge.... could you say the same about Aramaic ? And how if you could ?
Firstly, Arabic like most languages is not pure and borrows freely from other languages and this is true of words in the Qu'ran. Every language has its own subtleties there is nothing special about Arabic. If we confine ourselves to the Arabic of the Qu'ran we have a tiny vocabulary of just 2,822 different words and 80% of it uses just 582 words and even a child has 10 times that so it is impossible that it can say everything or describe the modern world. Modern English in contrast has over 1,000,000 words so far outstrips Arabic in what it can say.

The Scripture being lost from its originality shows its fallibilty! Quran can even solve the Problems of the Modern West which struggles to save itself from Moral Destruction! only an ignorant person who does not know anything about Quran, would speak against it. as every post of my reflects your ignorance.

Well where is the Original Qu'ran so I can go an look at it? How can it solve the problems of the modern world: will it tell us about how to organise water conservation in Bangladesh, how to predict earth quakes, how to run a modern nation state with 60 million people, did Edward Jenner look up in the Qu'ran how to make a small pox vaccine.... If we look at modern Muslim societies we see endemic corruption, persecution of religious minorities, hatred of those who in conscience give up Islam or even question it - only an ignorant person would speak as you do and display such blindness.
 
The NT was not translated from Aramaic it was written in Greek right from the start. The Greeks invaded Israel long before the Romans got there so Greek itself was well known and indeed particularly well known in Galilee. Just as in Arabia at the time of Mohammed there were many dialects but one was chosen so it is not surprising in any way that Jesus spoke Aramaic and his message was written down in Greek since that was the lingua Franca of the world at that time. What point are you trying to make since there are millions of Muslims who can recite the whole Qu'ran without understanding a word of it so they will never know they are reciting a story that God said a man can marry his adopted sons ex-wife or that Moses was struck down by lightning and then raised to life again so that he could thank God for doing it - and then the errors in the Qu'ran, bro I don't want to go there.
We Muslims know, learn and teach , Praise be to Our Lord who is also yours, but you deny. And we recite in Original form, and did not let, Pagan kings, interfere with the Holy Book, even if we wanted to , then still Allah (swt) has mentioned He will Protect the Book, does your Book say such ? I know that Your Modern Western Philospophy is also going down, the Philosophy of Capitalism, as you struggle so hard to save it by conquering nations. Still i see it falling apart as banks are falling! And you are loosing in Afghanistan any ways. So your not even sure if your Modern Secular system would survive long, while Quran has survived 1400 Years, and in its Original NOT in something new.




Jesus (a.s) spoke Aramaic... he did not speak Greek... it doesn't matter if Greeks invaded them, the Jews always kept writing their own scriptures in the languages in which they were handed down to them. The earlier scriptures were all, Hebrew and Aramaic. It was the day-to-day language of Israel in the 2nd Temple (586-539 BC) was also the original language of Books of Ezra and Daniel. Why would Jesus speak in Greek and leave the language of his ancestors ? If he did speak in Aramaic and the books were written in Greek, that means that they did not even have any respect for Jesus, as the words can be twisted from Aramaic to Greek for Aramaic language is Semetic and the Mathew 15:24 ...lost sheep of Israel... to whom Jesus came, he came to fix the Law, and the Law could not be replaced, unless He spoke in their Languages.... and does that mean that Mary and Zecharias all used to conversate in the Jerusalem Temple in Greek ? And they all forgot their local Language ? The Britishers on the Point of Sword conquered Muslims, and still even though we speak english, doesn't mean we have forgotten our Persian, Arabic and other languages. We still have Quran in Arabic!


Even the Dead Sea Scrolls, The Scrolls are for the most part, written in Hebrew, but there are many written in Aramaic. Aramaic was the common language of the Jews of Palestine for the last two centuries B.C. and of the first two centuries A.D.

If you say that it was due to invasion.... then while the Talmud was being written, the Rabbis and Jews were all enslaved to Babylon... why didn't they change their Books to their Language.... and why didn't they change to Persian when Cyrus the Great conquered after 500 BC ? Because the other empires, never adopted the Religion of Jews, NOT until the Romans decided to Adopt :)... it was then the books started to change, from Language of Jesus to Greek...... And Also Paul's theory of making Jesus the "son" was very much of interest of new ruling Priestly Class, as they had all adopted Christianity after coming from Pagan Roman Religion where they Worshiped the Sun on Sundays, and thats why they wanted to continue worshiping the Sun, so they chose the Pauline theology of Son of God i.e Trinity and so Hugo you have been worshiping the Sun and not the Son while forgeting the Teachings of Jesus... any ways...


This is total absurdity - the laser, the jet engine, penicillin are modern ideas so show me what revelation brought these and millions of others about so if the Qu'ran is a revelation it cannot tell us everything can it? If I want to build a bridge I don't look in the Qu'ran or hadith do I?
In a report published by CNN, researchers announced that AIDS rate of incidence is increasing day after day. Despite the billions being paid, they failed to find an effective treatment for this disease until now. The Center for Disease Control and prevention CDC said that there are more infections of Human Immunodeficiency Viruse (HIV) between Americans with rates higher than what used to be thought. Keeve Vinton, Manager of AIDS Dept at the center, had pointed out that about 56 thousand new cases were recorded last year, which means 40% increase over previous estimations. The CDC report says that there is more than a million American carrying HIV and that quarter of them are ignorant with their infection. It was published in the report that 53% of the new infections was among gays and bisexual people.

Well Hugo lets see what Quran has to offer for the "Enlightened West"

"And come not near to unlawful sex. Verily, it is a Fâhishah (i.e. anything that transgresses its limits: a great sin), and an evil way (that leads one to Hell unless Allâh forgives him)" (32: Al Isra'a).


Quran has the Solution to problems of mankind and for Hugo :)



How can it solve the problems of the modern world: will it tell us about how to organise water conservation in Bangladesh, how to predict earth quakes, how to run a modern nation state with 60 million people, did Edward Jenner look up in the Qu'ran how to make a small pox vaccine.... If we look at modern Muslim societies we see endemic corruption, persecution of religious minorities, hatred of those who in conscience give up Islam or even question it - only an ignorant person would speak as you do and display such blindness.



Obesity costs America 147 billion Dollars



American researchers said that spent money on obesity related diseases comprises 10% of the total medical expenses in the US, which is equal to 147 billion Dollars a year. According to a study published in the Health Avenue Magazine, the total expenditure on obesity related issues had doubled in less than 10 years.
Dr. Thomas Freden, the director of the US centers for Disease Control and Prevention, says that it is very important to have effective actions immediately to decrease the enormous burden on the country resulting from obesity. More than 26% of Americans are considered obese meaning that they have Body Mass Index 30 or more (Body Mass Index BMI is measured by weight in kilograms divided by the square of height in meters). Obesity is also a major cause of Cancer!


Allah, the Almighty, had specified a golden rule in diet as He said: " and eat and drink but waste not by extravagance, certainly He (Allâh) likes not Al-Musrifûn (those who waste by extravagance)" (31:Al A'raf.).



Prophet Muhammad (saw) said "(the disbeliever eats in seven intestines and the believer eats in one intestine)" (Al Bukhari and Muslim).

Also Prophet said "Eat but leave some room in the stomach."
i.e don't eat till your full! eat moderately! Too much McDonalds and KFC is killing you unless you would like to learn from Islam ?



Dirty Flies have Cure in them... Said Prophet Muhammad (Saw) ... is this True ?


Muhammad (saw) said "If there is any one of you flies fall in his drink he dip it and take it out, because one of its wings has a disease and the other contains the medicine" [Bukhari].

What does Modern Science say ?

The Professor Juan Alvarez Bravo of the University of Tokyo, says: "The last thing ttan one can accept is to see the flies in the hospital! But we soon will witness an effective treatment for many diseases that is extracted from flies.

A few months ago some researchers at Auburn University got a patent for their discovery of a protein in the saliva of the fly, this protein can accelerate the healing of wounds and chronic skin cracks.
Protein in Fly Saliva Speeds Healing of Incisions, Wounds, Auburn University, 23 Jan 2005.


This is also one of the Scientific Facts! Don't Agree ? Your ignorance.. dont learn!

how to organise water conservation in Bangladesh, how to predict earth quakes, how to run a modern nation state with 60 million people,



Hugo Asked About Predicting Earthquakes!


(And verily, We will make them taste of the near torment (i.e. the torment in the life of this world, i.e. disasters, calamities, etc.) prior to the supreme torment (in the Hereafter), in order that they may (repent and) return (i.e. accept Islam).)(Sûrat As-Sajdah-verse 21).


"Although it's difficult to prove that toads "predicted" the quake, it's certainly not impossible. We know that animals sense pre-earthquake micro-tremors, and react to underground water movements, or even changes in the composition of the air. It's just that these theories haven't been scientifically proven yet" Says Pascal Bernard a researcher in a team of seismologists at the Jussieu University in Paris.


On May 5th, 2008 many Chinese had noticed thousands of frogs on the move.​
They were seen traveling without fear of traffic as they crossed streets in mass floods. The Chinese government told them that it was just a natural migration for the purpose of propagation. This calmed the people and no one took the omen very seriously.

But on Monday, 12th of May, at about 2:45pm, central China region recorded a 7.8 magnitude quake which occurred near Wenchuan County, Sichuan province that killed nearly 10,000 people.


The Earthquake Test Centres are of No Use for West or the World, only Creatures of Allah , could tell such! Only a Fool like you would not be able to see the coming out of Frogs, as a warning, like many , because you people are blinded by your arrogance!

And has subjected to you all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth; it is all as a favor and kindness from Him. Verily, in it are signs for a people who think deeply)(Sûrat Al-Jâthiyah-verse13).


We are Representative of God on earth, and he made everything subservient to us to learn and prepare before hand! So even animals tell, but if you believe in an Al Mighty , who has no Son!

Shouldn't we deeply think in these signs and work hard to do good deeds may Allah protect us from His torture?


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(And We send the winds fertilizing (to fill heavily the clouds with water), then cause the water (rain) to descend from the sky, and We give it to you to drink, and it is not you who are the owners of its stores) (Sûrat A-Hijr - verse22).



So Allah (swt) says it is NOT you who are the owner of its stores. What does that mean ?

Lets see..



Today, the scientists confirm that storing water underground purifies and sterilizes the water to be drinkable, Allah reminds us with that grace, and so will we thank Him for that?​

It is a tremendous grace that Allah almighty had made great warehouses under the ground to store the pure water. What is the new thing concerning that matter?

The scientists were trying for many years to use many methods to purify the water on earth which is polluted by micro-organisms which cause many diseases, so they invented the water purification stations and different kinds of filters also they discovered different kinds of purification methods.

The most amazing way to purifying the water was discovered by the microbiologist Dr Simon Toze who invented a very simple and cheap method to purify the water by storing it in the underground layers for couple of months. He says that this method is enough to kill all harmful kinds of micro-organisms which cause many diseases like: Polio, diarrhea diseases and different kind of serious viral diseases.

This method is called "geo purification method" as Allah allows the ground to absorb all kinds of bacteria, viruses, oils, fats, dirt and other contaminants.​
The scientists were confused about this amazing technique as Dr Simon says:

"We know the pollution goes, but we don't know how"


...and We give it to you to drink, and it is not you who are the owners of its stores) (Sûrat A-Hijr - verse22).






Hugo the Western Industrialization is creating Global Warming around the Earth, which is killing our planet, may be you should ask your leaders why they are producing more than the planet needs, to Bangladesh can be saved, but see this is what happens, when greed guides you rather than Revelation!....and may be you should yourself learn from Quran, what you have been missing. Allah created you, why you so shy from Your creator ?

If we look at modern Muslim societies we see endemic corruption, persecution of religious minorities, hatred of those who in conscience give up Islam or even question it - only an ignorant person would speak as you do and display such blindness.
Vice Versa, there is much more all of such in the West with the Muslim Minorities. I can prove you. Non Muslims are much better here in our lands, even though we have worst leaders.



To Run a State Hugo, you need Quran and Sunnah, and Quran and Sunnah is Our Constitution! We will implement it InshAllah, when we chase your Wester Occupational forces out of Middle East InshAllah, and put the Puppet Leaders you Installed over us, on the Board with them!


I Challenge You to Prove me all of the Above from Bible. Go Ahead !
 
We Muslims know, learn and teach , Praise be to Our Lord who is also yours, but you deny. And we recite in Original form, and did not let, Pagan kings, interfere with the Holy Book, even if we wanted to , then still Allah (swt) has mentioned He will Protect the Book, does your Book say such ? I know that Your Modern Western Philospophy is also going down, the Philosophy of Capitalism, as you struggle so hard to save it by conquering nations. Still i see it falling apart as banks are falling! And you are loosing in Afghanistan any ways. So your not even sure if your Modern Secular system would survive long, while Quran has survived 1400 Years, and in its Original NOT in something new.
Western culture goes back to well before Islam with its roots in Greek, Roman and lastly Christian culture that has brought about massive improvement and development. Why does it matter what language Jesus spoke since it his message we are interested in. The OT was written in Hebrew which a script that was Aramaic in origin and it was also available in Greek the point being that with these two languages every one could read it. There are also many example where Jesus read from the Hebrew Bible so he also knew Hebrew. What possible advantage can there be generally in insisting that Muslim follow a book with a language that is antiquated - that to understand it one has to understand the meaning of those words as they were use 14 centuries ago.

There was a Palestinian and Babylonian Talmud because they were the two places of higher learning for Jews. In much the same way and again because of the dispersion there was need for a Hebrew and Greek version of the OT. No one 'changed' the language of Jesus, no one denies that he spoke Aramaic but if the word was to be spread it had to be written in Greek because that was spoken or know practically everywhere. Well what does the Qu'ran offer as all of its stories are written elsewhere and mostly in the Bible so that is not new.

In what sense has the Quran the Solution to problems of mankind? I can list 1000s of thing which it does not cover or speak about and of course there will be new problems which as yet we know nothing about. It might have a moral code but that will not fix everything will it? Just as many Muslim are overweight, die of cancer, get cataracts as anyone else so what is all this pointless rambling as we know more about how the body works and diets that could ever have been know 1400 years ago and we are not short of good medical advice are we.

If you are going to try to prove something about medical things then use a suitable source not just copy as you have done aimlessly from web sites - try MEDLINE for example or give an acceptable reference but here you give nothing and so there is no substance to what you say.

It absolutely silly beyond words to say you can run a modern state with just the Qu'ran and Sunnah - where are the building regulations, where are the medical practices, where are the methods of building bridges, or fire regulations or a million and one other things. It is simply absurd to think that someone who is expert in the Qu'ran and Sunnah would know how to manage a factory or diagnose an illness and so on
 
I wonder if we might move the discussion on and think about how we might decide what is 'true'. Now in science it is in principle simple, we use the scientific method of observation and experiment based on the notion that we can find a test that is falsifiable and that test applies to every similar thing. In a way the wonderful thing about science is that is outside religion, gravity, Archimedes principle, Ohms law are the same for every one no matter what they believe and what the believe has no power to change them. Outside of science, and that includes religion, we cannot usually find a test that is universally applicable and instead we use reason and argument though religion would want to use authority; tell us what we can and cannot believe. Sadly, religion often wants to stifle opinion and criticism and assumes a guises of infallibility. I am not of that persuasion and never will be but what do you think and to start us off I offer these quotes from Thomas Paine extracted from his book "On Liberty" (easy to get as an eBook for free)

But the peculiar evil of silencing the expression of an opinion is, that it is robbing the human race; posterity as well as the existing generation; those who dissent from the opinion, still more than those who hold it. If the opinion is right, they are deprived of the opportunity of exchanging error for truth: if wrong, they lose, what is almost as great a benefit, the clearer perception and livelier impression of truth, produced by its collision with error. We can never be sure that the opinion we are endeavouring to stifle is a false opinion; and if we were sure, stifling it would be an evil still and I give two reason the first of which is in this post.

First: the opinion which it is attempted to suppress by authority may possibly be true. Those who desire to suppress it, of course deny its truth; but they are not infallible. They have no authority to decide the question for all mankind, and exclude every other person from the means of judging. To refuse a hearing to an opinion, because they are sure that it is false, is to assume that their certainty is the same thing as absolute certainty. All silencing of discussion is an assumption of infallibility. Its condemnation may be allowed to rest on this common argument, not the worse for being common.
Of course I understand that these ideas strike at the heart of religion of whatever source because it means that everything can and must be challenged and challenged vigorously - as Socrates would say the unexamined life is not worth living. So might argue that these idea undermine or destroy faith but I have never found it like that because one is learning all the time.
 
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Dude-- you ought to read some history books ey before writing about 'christian enlightenment'-- Christianity is synonymous with the dark ages, in fact that is where any semblance of 'civility' went down hill!
It wasn't until these so-called Christians separated themselves from religion and went about pillaging and stealing the wealth of other nations, did they see some semblance of improvement -- still many of those carrying the western nations on their shoulders are either immigrants from other countries, or the economy which is supported and sustained by stolen goods from other countries.. Someone needs to give you a wake up call.. although it would certainly be amusing to see you give a public speech where you'd be annihilated for your ignorance -- (that would be entertaining)

 
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in support of the above to help our delusional guest get in grips with reality!

WONDERFUL EVENTS THAT TESTIFY TO GOD'S DIVINE GLORY"Listed are only events that solely occurred on command of church authorities or were committed in the name of Christianity. (List incomplete)
Ancient Pagans


  • As soon as Christianity was legal (315), more and more pagan temples were destroyed by Christian mob. Pagan priests were killed.
  • Between 315 and 6th century thousands of pagan believers were slain.
  • Examples of destroyed Temples: the Sanctuary of Aesculap in Aegaea, the Temple of Aphrodite in Golgatha, Aphaka in Lebanon, the Heliopolis.
  • Christian priests such as Mark of Arethusa or Cyrill of Heliopolis were famous as "temple destroyer." [DA468]
  • Pagan services became punishable by death in 356. [DA468]
  • Christian Emperor Theodosius (408-450) even had children executed, because they had been playing with remains of pagan statues. [DA469]
    According to Christian chroniclers he "followed meticulously all Christian teachings..."
  • In 6th century pagans were declared void of all rights.
  • In the early fourth century the philosopher Sopatros was executed on demand of Christian authorities. [DA466]
  • The world famous female philosopher Hypatia of Alexandria was torn to pieces with glass fragments by a hysterical Christian mob led by a Christian minister named Peter, in a church, in 415.
    [DO19-25]
Mission


  • Emperor Karl (Charlemagne) in 782 had 4500 Saxons, unwilling to convert to Christianity, beheaded. [DO30]
  • Peasants of Steding (Germany) unwilling to pay suffocating church taxes: between 5,000 and 11,000 men, women and children slain 5/27/1234 near Altenesch/Germany. [WW223]
  • Battle of Belgrad 1456: 80,000 Turks slaughtered. [DO235]
  • 15th century Poland: 1019 churches and 17987 villages plundered by Knights of the Order. Victims unknown. [DO30]
  • 16th and 17th century Ireland. English troops "pacified and civilized" Ireland, where only Gaelic "wild Irish", "unreasonable beasts lived without any knowledge of God or good manners, in common of their goods, cattle, women, children and every other thing." One of the more successful soldiers, a certain Humphrey Gilbert, half-brother of Sir Walter Raleigh, ordered that "the heddes of all those (of what sort soever thei were) which were killed in the daie, should be cutte off from their bodies... and should bee laied on the ground by eche side of the waie", which effort to civilize the Irish indeed caused "greate terrour to the people when thei sawe the heddes of their dedde fathers, brothers, children, kinsfolke, and freinds on the grounde".
    Tens of thousands of Gaelic Irish fell victim to the carnage. [SH99, 225]
Crusades (1095-1291)


  • First Crusade: 1095 on command of pope Urban II. [WW11-41]
  • Semlin/Hungary 6/24/96 thousands slain. Wieselburg/Hungary 6/12/96 thousands. [WW23]
  • 9/9/96-9/26/96 Nikaia, Xerigordon (then turkish), thousands respectively. [WW25-27]
  • Until Jan 1098 a total of 40 capital cities and 200 castles conquered (number of slain unknown) [WW30]
  • after 6/3/98 Antiochia (then turkish) conquered, between 10,000 and 60,000 slain. 6/28/98 100,000 Turks (incl. women & children) killed. [WW32-35]
    Here the Christians "did no other harm to the women found in [the enemy's] tents - save that they ran their lances through their bellies," according to Christian chronicler Fulcher of Chartres. [EC60]
  • Marra (Maraat an-numan) 12/11/98 thousands killed. Because of the subsequent famine "the already stinking corpses of the enemies were eaten by the Christians" said chronicler Albert Aquensis. [WW36]
  • Jerusalem conquered 7/15/1099 more than 60,000 victims (jewish, muslim, men, women, children). [WW37-40]
    (In the words of one witness: "there [in front of Solomon's temple] was such a carnage that our people were wading ankle-deep in the blood of our foes", and after that "happily and crying for joy our people marched to our Saviour's tomb, to honour it and to pay off our debt of gratitude")
  • The Archbishop of Tyre, eye-witness, wrote: "It was impossible to look upon the vast numbers of the slain without horror; everywhere lay fragments of human bodies, and the very ground was covered with the blood of the slain. It was not alone the spectacle of headless bodies and mutilated limbs strewn in all directions that roused the horror of all who looked upon them. Still more dreadful was it to gaze upon the victors themselves, dripping with blood from head to foot, an ominous sight which brought terror to all who met them. It is reported that within the Temple enclosure alone about ten thousand infidels perished." [TG79]
  • Christian chronicler Eckehard of Aura noted that "even the following summer in all of palestine the air was polluted by the stench of decomposition". One million victims of the first crusade alone. [WW41]
  • Battle of Askalon, 8/12/1099. 200,000 heathens slaughtered "in the name of Our Lord Jesus Christ". [WW45]
  • Fourth crusade: 4/12/1204 Constantinople sacked, number of victims unknown, numerous thousands, many of them Christian. [WW141-148]
  • Rest of Crusades in less detail: until the fall of Akkon 1291 probably 20 million victims (in the Holy land and Arab/Turkish areas alone). [WW224] Note: All figures according to contemporary (Christian) chroniclers.
Heretics


  • Already in 385 C.E. the first Christians, the Spanish Priscillianus and six followers, were beheaded for heresy in Trier/Germany [DO26]
  • Manichaean heresy: a crypto-Christian sect decent enough to practice birth control (and thus not as irresponsible as faithful Catholics) was exterminated in huge campaigns all over the Roman empire between 372 C.E. and 444 C.E. Numerous thousands of victims. [NC]
  • Albigensians: the first Crusade intended to slay other Christians. [DO29]
    The Albigensians (cathars = Christians allegedly that have all rarely sucked) viewed themselves as good Christians, but would not accept roman Catholic rule, and taxes, and prohibition of birth control. [NC]
    Begin of violence: on command of pope Innocent III (greatest single pre-nazi mass murderer) in 1209. Bezirs (today France) 7/22/1209 destroyed, all the inhabitants were slaughtered. Victims (including Catholics refusing to turn over their heretic neighbours and friends) 20,000-70,000. [WW179-181]
  • Carcassonne 8/15/1209, thousands slain. Other cities followed. [WW181]
  • subsequent 20 years of war until nearly all Cathars (probably half the population of the Languedoc, today southern France) were exterminated. [WW183]
  • After the war ended (1229) the Inquisition was founded 1232 to search and destroy surviving/hiding heretics. Last Cathars burned at the stake 1324. [WW183]
  • Estimated one million victims (cathar heresy alone), [WW183]
  • Other heresies: Waldensians, Paulikians, Runcarians, Josephites, and many others. Most of these sects exterminated, (I believe some Waldensians live today, yet they had to endure 600 years of persecution) I estimate at least hundred thousand victims (including the Spanish inquisition but excluding victims in the New World).
  • Spanish Inquisitor Torquemada alone allegedly responsible for 10,220 burnings. [DO28]
  • John Huss, a critic of papal infallibility and indulgences, was burned at the stake in 1415. [LI475-522]
  • University professor B.Hubmaier burned at the stake 1538 in Vienna. [DO59]
  • Giordano Bruno, Dominican monk, after having been incarcerated for seven years, was burned at the stake for heresy on the Campo dei Fiori (Rome) on 2/17/1600.
Witches


  • from the beginning of Christianity to 1484 probably more than several thousand.
  • in the era of witch hunting (1484-1750) according to modern scholars several hundred thousand (about 80% female) burned at the stake or hanged. [WV]
  • incomplete list of documented cases:
    The Burning of Witches - A Chronicle of the Burning Times
Religious Wars


  • 15th century: Crusades against Hussites, thousands slain. [DO30]
  • 1538 pope Paul III declared Crusade against apostate England and all English as slaves of Church (fortunately had not power to go into action). [DO31]
  • 1568 Spanish Inquisition Tribunal ordered extermination of 3 million rebels in (then Spanish) Netherlands. Thousands were actually slain. [DO31]
  • 1572 In France about 20,000 Huguenots were killed on command of pope Pius V. Until 17th century 200,000 flee. [DO31]
  • 17th century: Catholics slay Gaspard de Coligny, a Protestant leader. After murdering him, the Catholic mob mutilated his body, "cutting off his head, his hands, and his genitals... and then dumped him into the river [...but] then, deciding that it was not worthy of being food for the fish, they hauled it out again [... and] dragged what was left ... to the gallows of Montfaulcon, 'to be meat and carrion for maggots and crows'." [SH191]
  • 17th century: Catholics sack the city of Magdeburg/Germany: roughly 30,000 Protestants were slain. "In a single church fifty women were found beheaded," reported poet Friedrich Schiller, "and infants still sucking the breasts of their lifeless mothers." [SH191]
  • 17th century 30 years' war (Catholic vs. Protestant): at least 40% of population decimated, mostly in Germany. [DO31-32]
Jews


  • Already in the 4th and 5th centuries synagogues were burned by Christians. Number of Jews slain unknown.
  • In the middle of the fourth century the first synagogue was destroyed on command of bishop Innocentius of Dertona in Northern Italy. The first synagogue known to have been burned down was near the river Euphrat, on command of the bishop of Kallinikon in the year 388. [DA450]
  • 17. Council of Toledo 694: Jews were enslaved, their property confiscated, and their children forcibly baptized. [DA454]
  • The Bishop of Limoges (France) in 1010 had the cities' Jews, who would not convert to Christianity, expelled or killed. [DA453]
  • First Crusade: Thousands of Jews slaughtered 1096, maybe 12.000 total. Places: Worms 5/18/1096, Mainz 5/27/1096 (1100 persons), Cologne, Neuss, Altenahr, Wevelinghoven, Xanten, Moers, Dortmund, Kerpen, Trier, Metz, Regensburg, Prag and others (All locations Germany except Metz/France, Prag/Czech) [EJ]
  • Second Crusade: 1147. Several hundred Jews were slain in Ham, Sully, Carentan, and Rameru (all locations in France). [WW57]
  • Third Crusade: English Jewish communities sacked 1189/90. [DO40]
  • Fulda/Germany 1235: 34 Jewish men and women slain. [DO41]
  • 1257, 1267: Jewish communities of London, Canterbury, Northampton, Lincoln, Cambridge, and others exterminated. [DO41]
  • 1290 in Bohemian (Poland) allegedly 10,000 Jews killed. [DO41]
  • 1337 Starting in Deggendorf/Germany a Jew-killing craze reaches 51 towns in Bavaria, Austria, Poland. [DO41]
  • 1348 All Jews of Basel/Switzerland and Strasbourg/France (two thousand) burned. [DO41]
  • 1349 In more than 350 towns in Germany all Jews murdered, mostly burned alive (in this one year more Jews were killed than Christians in 200 years of ancient Roman persecution of Christians). [DO42]
  • 1389 In Prag 3,000 Jews were slaughtered. [DO42]
  • 1391 Seville's Jews killed (Archbishop Martinez leading). 4,000 were slain, 25,000 sold as slaves. [DA454] Their identification was made easy by the brightly colored "badges of shame" that all jews above the age of ten had been forced to wear.
  • 1492: In the year Columbus set sail to conquer a New World, more than 150,000 Jews were expelled from Spain, many died on their way: 6/30/1492. [MM470-476]
  • 1648 Chmielnitzki massacres: In Poland about 200,000 Jews were slain. [DO43]
(I feel sick ...) this goes on and on, century after century, right into the kilns of Auschwitz.
Native Peoples


  • Beginning with Columbus (a former slave trader and would-be Holy Crusader) the conquest of the New World began, as usual understood as a means to propagate Christianity.
  • Within hours of landfall on the first inhabited island he encountered in the Caribbean, Columbus seized and carried off six native people who, he said, "ought to be good servants ... [and] would easily be made Christians, because it seemed to me that they belonged to no religion." [SH200]
    While Columbus described the Indians as "idolators" and "slaves, as many as [the Crown] shall order," his pal Michele de Cuneo, Italian nobleman, referred to the natives as "beasts" because "they eat when they are hungry," and made love "openly whenever they feel like it." [SH204-205]
  • On every island he set foot on, Columbus planted a cross, "making the declarations that are required" - the requerimiento - to claim the ownership for his Catholic patrons in Spain. And "nobody objected." If the Indians refused or delayed their acceptance (or understanding), the requerimiento continued:
I certify to you that, with the help of God, we shall powerfully enter in your country and shall make war against you ... and shall subject you to the yoke and obedience of the Church ... and shall do you all mischief that we can, as to vassals who do not obey and refuse to receive their lord and resist and contradict him." [SH66]​
  • Likewise in the words of John Winthrop, first governor of Massachusetts Bay Colony: "justifieinge the undertakeres of the intended Plantation in New England ... to carry the Gospell into those parts of the world, ... and to raise a Bulworke against the kingdome of the Ante-Christ." [SH235]
  • In average two thirds of the native population were killed by colonist-imported smallpox before violence began. This was a great sign of "the marvelous goodness and providence of God" to the Christians of course, e.g. the Governor of the Massachusetts Bay Colony wrote in 1634, as "for the natives, they are near all dead of the smallpox, so as the Lord hath cleared our title to what we possess." [SH109,238]
  • On Hispaniola alone, on Columbus visits, the native population (Arawak), a rather harmless and happy people living on an island of abundant natural resources, a literal paradise, soon mourned 50,000 dead. [SH204]
  • The surviving Indians fell victim to rape, murder, enslavement and spanish raids.
  • As one of the culprits wrote: "So many Indians died that they could not be counted, all through the land the Indians lay dead everywhere. The stench was very great and pestiferous." [SH69]
  • The indian chief Hatuey fled with his people but was captured and burned alive. As "they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell." [SH70]
  • What happened to his people was described by an eyewitness:
    "The Spaniards found pleasure in inventing all kinds of odd cruelties ... They built a long gibbet, long enough for the toes to touch the ground to prevent strangling, and hanged thirteen [natives] at a time in honor of Christ Our Saviour and the twelve Apostles... then, straw was wrapped around their torn bodies and they were burned alive." [SH72]
    Or, on another occasion:
    "The Spaniards cut off the arm of one, the leg or hip of another, and from some their heads at one stroke, like butchers cutting up beef and mutton for market. Six hundred, including the cacique, were thus slain like brute beasts...Vasco [de Balboa] ordered forty of them to be torn to pieces by dogs." [SH83]
  • The "island's population of about eight million people at the time of Columbus's arrival in 1492 already had declined by a third to a half before the year 1496 was out." Eventually all the island's natives were exterminated, so the Spaniards were "forced" to import slaves from other caribbean islands, who soon suffered the same fate. Thus "the Caribbean's millions of native people [were] thereby effectively liquidated in barely a quarter of a century". [SH72-73] "In less than the normal lifetime of a single human being, an entire culture of millions of people, thousands of years resident in their homeland, had been exterminated." [SH75]
  • "And then the Spanish turned their attention to the mainland of Mexico and Central America. The slaughter had barely begun. The exquisite city of Tenochtitln [Mexico city] was next." [SH75]
  • Cortez, Pizarro, De Soto and hundreds of other spanish conquistadors likewise sacked southern and mesoamerican civilizations in the name of Christ (De Soto also sacked Florida).
  • "When the 16th century ended, some 200,000 Spaniards had moved to the Americas. By that time probably more than 60,000,000 natives were dead." [SH95]
Of course no different were the founders of what today is the US of Amerikkka.

  • Although none of the settlers would have survived winter without native help, they soon set out to expel and exterminate the Indians. Warfare among (north American) Indians was rather harmless, in comparison to European standards, and was meant to avenge insults rather than conquer land. In the words of some of the pilgrim fathers: "Their Warres are farre less bloudy...", so that there usually was "no great slawter of nether side". Indeed, "they might fight seven yeares and not kill seven men." What is more, the Indians usually spared women and children. [SH111]
  • In the spring of 1612 some English colonists found life among the (generally friendly and generous) natives attractive enough to leave Jamestown - "being idell ... did runne away unto the Indyans," - to live among them (that probably solved a sex problem).
    "Governor Thomas Dale had them hunted down and executed: 'Some he apointed (sic) to be hanged Some burned Some to be broken upon wheles, others to be staked and some shott to deathe'." [SH105] Of course these elegant measures were restricted for fellow englishmen: "This was the treatment for those who wished to act like Indians. For those who had no choice in the matter, because they were the native people of Virginia" methods were different: "when an Indian was accused by an Englishman of stealing a cup and failing to return it, the English response was to attack the natives in force, burning the entire community" down. [SH105]
  • On the territory that is now Massachusetts the founding fathers of the colonies were committing genocide, in what has become known as the "Peqout War". The killers were New England Puritan Christians, refugees from persecution in their own home country England.
  • When however, a dead colonist was found, apparently killed by Narragansett Indians, the Puritan colonists wanted revenge. Despite the Indian chief's pledge they attacked.
    Somehow they seem to have lost the idea of what they were after, because when they were greeted by Pequot Indians (long-time foes of the Narragansetts) the troops nevertheless made war on the Pequots and burned their villages.
    The puritan commander-in-charge John Mason after one massacre wrote: "And indeed such a dreadful Terror did the Almighty let fall upon their Spirits, that they would fly from us and run into the very Flames, where many of them perished ... God was above them, who laughed his Enemies and the Enemies of his People to Scorn, making them as a fiery Oven ... Thus did the Lord judge among the Heathen, filling the Place with dead Bodies": men, women, children. [SH113-114]
  • So "the Lord was pleased to smite our Enemies in the hinder Parts, and to give us their land for an inheritance". [SH111].
  • Because of his readers' assumed knowledge of Deuteronomy, there was no need for Mason to quote the words that immediately follow:
    "Thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth. But thou shalt utterly destroy them..." (Deut 20)
  • Mason's comrade Underhill recalled how "great and doleful was the bloody sight to the view of the young soldiers" yet reassured his readers that "sometimes the Scripture declareth women and children must perish with their parents". [SH114]
  • Other Indians were killed in successful plots of poisoning. The colonists even had dogs especially trained to kill Indians and to devour children from their mothers breasts, in the colonists' own words: "blood Hounds to draw after them, and Mastives to seaze them." (This was inspired by spanish methods of the time)
    In this way they continued until the extermination of the Pequots was near. [SH107-119]
  • The surviving handful of Indians "were parceled out to live in servitude. John Endicott and his pastor wrote to the governor asking for 'a share' of the captives, specifically 'a young woman or girle and a boy if you thinke good'." [SH115]
  • Other tribes were to follow the same path.
  • Comment the Christian exterminators: "God's Will, which will at last give us cause to say: How Great is His Goodness! and How Great is his Beauty!"
    "Thus doth the Lord Jesus make them to bow before him, and to lick the Dust!" [TA]
  • Like today, lying was OK to Christians then. "Peace treaties were signed with every intention to violate them: when the Indians 'grow secure uppon (sic) the treatie', advised the Council of State in Virginia, 'we shall have the better Advantage both to surprise them, & cutt downe theire Corne'." [SH106]
  • In 1624 sixty heavily armed Englishmen cut down 800 defenseless Indian men, women and children. [SH107]
  • In a single massacre in "King Philip's War" of 1675 and 1676 some "600 Indians were destroyed. A delighted Cotton Mather, revered pastor of the Second Church in Boston, later referred to the slaughter as a 'barbeque'." [SH115]
  • To summarize: Before the arrival of the English, the western Abenaki people in New Hampshire and Vermont had numbered 12,000. Less than half a century later about 250 remained alive - a destruction rate of 98%. The Pocumtuck people had numbered more than 18,000, fifty years later they were down to 920 - 95% destroyed. The Quiripi-Unquachog people had numbered about 30,000, fifty years later they were down to 1500 - 95% destroyed. The Massachusetts people had numbered at least 44,000, fifty years later barely 6000 were alive - 81% destroyed. [SH118] These are only a few examples of the multitude of tribes living before Christian colonists set their foot on the New World. All this was before the smallpox epidemics of 1677 and 1678 had occurred. And the carnage was not over then.
  • All the above was only the beginning of the European colonization, it was before the frontier age actually had begun.
  • A total of maybe more than 150 million Indians (of both Americas) were destroyed in the period of 1500 to 1900, as an average two thirds by smallpox and other epidemics, that leaves some 50 million killed directly by violence, bad treatment and slavery.
  • In many countries, such as Brazil, and Guatemala, this continues even today.
More Glorious events in US history


  • Reverend Solomon Stoddard, one of New England's most esteemed religious leaders, in "1703 formally proposed to the Massachusetts Governor that the colonists be given the financial wherewithal to purchase and train large packs of dogs 'to hunt Indians as they do bears'." [SH241]
  • Massacre of Sand Creek, Colorado 11/29/1864. Colonel John Chivington, a former Methodist minister and still elder in the church ("I long to be wading in gore") had a Cheyenne village of about 600, mostly women and children, gunned down despite the chiefs' waving with a white flag: 400-500 killed.
    From an eye-witness account: "There were some thirty or forty squaws collected in a hole for protection; they sent out a little girl about six years old with a white flag on a stick; she had not proceeded but a few steps when she was shot and killed. All the squaws in that hole were afterwards killed ..." [SH131]
    More gory details.
  • By the 1860s, "in Hawai'i the Reverend Rufus Anderson surveyed the carnage that by then had reduced those islands' native population by 90 percent or more, and he declined to see it as tragedy; the expected total die-off of the Hawaiian population was only natural, this missionary said, somewhat equivalent to 'the amputation of diseased members of the body'." [SH244]
20th Century Church Atrocities


  • Catholic extermination camps
    Surpisingly few know that Nazi extermination camps in World War II were by no means the only ones in Europe at the time. In the years 1942-1943 also in Croatia existed numerous extermination camps, run by Catholic Ustasha under their dictator Ante Paveli, a practising Catholic and regular visitor to the then pope. There were even concentration camps exclusively for children!

    In these camps - the most notorious was Jasenovac, headed by a Franciscan friar - orthodox-Christian serbians (and a substantial number of Jews) were murdered. Like the Nazis the Catholic Ustasha burned their victims in kilns, alive (the Nazis were decent enough to have their victims gassed first). But most of the victims were simply stabbed, slain or shot to death, the number of them being estimated between 300,000 and 600,000, in a rather tiny country. Many of the killers were Franciscan friars. The atrocities were appalling enough to induce bystanders of the Nazi "Sicherheitsdient der SS", watching, to complain about them to Hitler (who did not listen). The pope knew about these events and did nothing to prevent them. [MV]
  • Catholic terror in Vietnam
    In 1954 Vietnamese freedom fighters - the Viet Minh - had finally defeated the French colonial government in North Vietnam, which by then had been supported by U.S. funds amounting to more than $2 billion. Although the victorious assured religious freedom to all (most non-buddhist Vietnamese were Catholics), due to huge anticommunist propaganda campaigns many Catholics fled to the South. With the help of Catholic lobbies in Washington and Cardinal Spellman, the Vatican's spokesman in U.S. politics, who later on would call the U.S. forces in Vietnam "Soldiers of Christ", a scheme was concocted to prevent democratic elections which could have brought the communist Viet Minh to power in the South as well, and the fanatic Catholic Ngo Dinh Diem was made president of South Vietnam. [MW16ff]

    Diem saw to it that U.S. aid, food, technical and general assistance was given to Catholics alone, Buddhist individuals and villages were ignored or had to pay for the food aids which were given to Catholics for free. The only religious denomination to be supported was Roman Catholicism.

    The Vietnamese McCarthyism turned even more vicious than its American counterpart. By 1956 Diem promulgated a presidential order which read:
    • "Individuals considered dangerous to the national defense and common security may be confined by executive order, to a concentration camp."
Supposedly to fight communism, thousands of buddhist protesters and monks were imprisoned in "detention camps." Out of protest dozens of buddhist teachers - male and female - and monks poured gasoline over themselves and burned themselves. (Note that Buddhists burned themselves: in comparison Christians tend to burn others). Meanwhile some of the prison camps, which in the meantime were filled with Protestant and even Catholic protesters as well, had turned into no-nonsense death camps. It is estimated that during this period of terror (1955-1960) at least 24,000 were wounded - mostly in street riots - 80,000 people were executed, 275,000 had been detained or tortured, and about 500,000 were sent to concentration or detention camps. [MW76-89].

To support this kind of government in the next decade thousands of American GI's lost their life....
  • Rwanda Massacres
    In 1994 in the small african country of Rwanda in just a few months several hundred thousand civilians were butchered, apparently a conflict of the Hutu and Tutsi ethnic groups.
For quite some time I heard only rumours about Catholic clergy actively involved in the 1994 Rwanda massacres. Odd denials of involvement were printed in Catholic church journals, before even anybody had openly accused members of the church.
Then, 10/10/96, in the newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany - a station not at all critical to Christianity - the following was stated:
"Anglican as well as Catholic priests and nuns are suspect of having actively participated in murders. Especially the conduct of a certain Catholic priest has been occupying the public mind in Rwanda's capital Kigali for months. He was minister of the church of the Holy Family and allegedly murdered Tutsis in the most brutal manner. He is reported to have accompanied marauding Hutu militia with a gun in his cowl. In fact there has been a bloody slaughter of Tutsis seeking shelter in his parish. Even two years after the massacres many Catholics refuse to set foot on the threshold of their church, because to them the participation of a certain part of the clergy in the slaughter is well established. There is almost no church in Rwanda that has not seen refugees - women, children, old - being brutally butchered facing the crucifix.

According to eyewitnesses clergymen gave away hiding Tutsis and turned them over to the machetes of the Hutu militia.
In connection with these events again and again two Benedictine nuns are mentioned, both of whom have fled into a Belgian monastery in the meantime to avoid prosecution. According to survivors one of them called the Hutu killers and led them to several thousand people who had sought shelter in her monastery. By force the doomed were driven out of the churchyard and were murdered in the presence of the nun right in front of the gate. The other one is also reported to have directly cooperated with the murderers of the Hutu militia. In her case again witnesses report that she watched the slaughtering of people in cold blood and without showing response. She is even accused of having procured some petrol used by the killers to set on fire and burn their victims alive..." [S2]
As can be seen from these events, to Christianity the Dark Ages never come to an end....
References:

[DA] K.Deschner, Abermals krhte der Hahn, Stuttgart 1962. [DO] K.Deschner, Opus Diaboli, Reinbek 1987. [EC] P.W.Edbury, Crusade and Settlement, Cardiff Univ. Press 1985. [EJ] S.Eidelberg, The Jews and the Crusaders, Madison 1977. [LI] H.C.Lea, The Inquisition of the Middle Ages, New York 1961. [MM] M.Margolis, A.Marx, A History of the Jewish People. [MV] A.Manhattan, The Vatican's Holocaust, Springfield 1986.
See also V.Dedijer, The Yugoslav Auschwitz and the Vatican, Buffalo NY, 1992.
[NC] J.T.Noonan, Contraception: A History of its Treatment by the Catholic Theologians and Canonists, Cambridge/Mass., 1992. [S2] Newscast of S2 Aktuell, Germany, 10/10/96, 12:00. [SH] D.Stannard, American Holocaust, Oxford University Press 1992. [SP] German news magazine Der Spiegel, no.49, 12/2/1996. [TA] A True Account of the Most Considerable Occurrences that have Hapned in the Warre Between the English and the Indians in New England, London 1676. [TG] F.Turner, Beyond Geography, New York 1980. [WW] H.Wollschlger: Die bewaffneten Wallfahrten gen Jerusalem, Zrich 1973.
(This is in german and what is worse, it is out of print. But it is the best I ever read about crusades and includes a full list of original medieval Christian chroniclers' writings).
[WV] Estimates on the number of executed witches:

  • N.Cohn, Europe's Inner Demons: An Enquiry Inspired by the Great Witch Hunt, Frogmore 1976, 253.
  • R.H.Robbins, The Encyclopedia of Witchcraft and Demonology, New York 1959, 180.
  • J.B.Russell, Witchcraft in the Middle Ages, Ithaca/NY 1972, 39.
  • H.Zwetsloot, Friedrich Spee und die Hexenprozesse, Trier 1954, 56

 
Perhaps post 73 illustrated much better than I could say how some want to stifle opinion that they don't like and here she does it by posting a 6000 word copied from two sources and it is doubtful she had read either. If your read them you will find very little in the way of references and they rest on a presupposition that belief in which the direct word of God is the only absolute truth (Qu'ran). Clearly such a supposition is unprovable and all we really get here is a restatement of the usual Islamic arguments of supremacy and faultlessness with absurd and erroneous assumption that everything that is any value being derived from Islam.
 
Such test does Exist.... since God is Above Space and time, then the Revelation which is a True one should work for all Ages.... because only such a Revelation would be able to solve the Problems of Humanity in Present, have done it in the Past, and should be able to do it in future, which is itself Beyond Space and Time... everything in Space and time changes, but God does NOT change otherwise he is not god then!

Let me make it easy for you, prove that God exists? If you cannot do that then anything else is worthless.
 
Perhaps post 73 illustrated much better than I could say how some want to stifle opinion that they don't like and here she does it by posting a 6000 word copied from two sources and it is doubtful she had read either. If your read them you will find very little in the way of references and they rest on a presupposition that belief in which the direct word of God is the only absolute truth (Qu'ran). Clearly such a supposition is unprovable and all we really get here is a restatement of the usual Islamic arguments of supremacy and faultlessness with absurd and erroneous assumption that everything that is any value being derived from Islam.

it is called cementing your words with facts--proper recorded historical facts! you ought to try it sometimes so that everything you write also by way of 6000 words has some semblance of truth and not a product of wishful thinking..
Let me make it easy for you, prove that God exists? If you cannot do that then anything else is worthless.

truly you are a dynamo of a hyperbole!
 
How about the New Testament?

is that why Christianity is declining in all of Europe at a rate of 1% a year, and how is guidance in Christianity working out when you're holding vigils to burn books? :lol: you really are a tickle! ;D
 

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