truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YieldedOne said:
I'm wondering how the wave/particle complementarity analogy is "exceedingly confusing." (I didn't come up with it, by the way. See James Loder.) If a person understands the fundamental aspects of the wave/particle reality of atoms, then it's a VERY helpful analogy of how a SINGULAR reality can have TWO mutually exclusive aspects within it without any contradiction or conflation.
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hey yielded, i'm not going to argue the matter with you and if it did seem like i did then i apologize. that said, i simply meant that the triangle-box was more concrete (in my opinion). once again though, the more examples the better.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

SolInvictus:
once again though, the more examples the better.

Agreed. Hopefully, it's a helpful addition. :statisfie
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Aprender:
OK:
the single OK. He's One. Got it.
divine being exists eternally as the persons Wait a minute. Persons? I thought he was one?
of the father, the son, and the holy spirit---these three OK...He was one at first. Now all of a sudden these three things come into place.
are the one true god and yet each is not identical with the other. Now we are back to one again? But each one is not identical?
that christ is fully god, and fully man and the two should not be confused There we go with the plurals again. So is he one, two or three now?

Figured I may as well give this a shot too...

Let's try this: The ONE God as necessarily triune uncreated personal being. Basically, if God's uncreated self-experience and self-expression ("I Am that I Am"; Tetragammaton, etc) can be conceived as a triune event (God as "Speaker" using His "Breath" to bring forth His "Spoken Word" )--even sans Creation--then this can be a pointer to the Christian view of the Trinity. My own personal view is that the uncreated self-revelatory "spoken Word" of God 1) is hypostatic, meaning reflective of the personality of God Himself and 2) is expressed in created human existence [human body, soul, and spirit] as a divinely creative "word" to Mary.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

jesus peace be upon him was born a child like any other child is born. childbirth isn't very godly. and i think that should be enough to convince any christian that jesus isn't god. after being born a child, Jesus had to be fed by his mother and cleaned, etc. he went to the bathroom, etc. again not very godly qualities. he was just a weak little baby, unable to do anything for himself. all these prove that Jesus wasn't God. if god wanted to come to earth in the shape of a human He didn't have to make himself be born and raised as a baby, soiling his diapers, frying for food, etc. God could've just come as an adult human.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

WRITER said:
jesus peace be upon him was born a child like any other child is born. childbirth isn't very godly. and i think that should be enough to convince any christian that jesus isn't god. after being born a child, Jesus had to be fed by his mother and cleaned, etc. he went to the bathroom, etc. again not very godly qualities. he was just a weak little baby, unable to do anything for himself. all these prove that Jesus wasn't God. if god wanted to come to earth in the shape of a human He didn't have to make himself be born and raised as a baby, soiling his diapers, frying for food, etc. God could've just come as an adult human.
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Many people have seen the incarnation as an enigma. Others have seen it as something "below" God to do. God does not think like we think, estimate like we estimate, judge as we judge. Let's remember the words of the prophet Isaiah who said,

For thus saith the high andlofty One that inhabiteth eternity, whose name is Holy; I dwell in thehigh and holy place, with him also that is of a contrite and humble spirit, to revive the spirit of the humble, and to revive the heart of the contrite ones.
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Writer:
jesus peace be upon him was born a child like any other child is born. childbirth isn't very godly. and i think that should be enough to convince any christian that jesus isn't god.

I think something needs to be clear here. This is like the kind of argumentation I often hear against the simultaneity of uncreated and created reality in Jesus:

1) Creaturely beings cannot be uncreated, by definition.

2) Jesus is a creaturely being.

Therefore...

3) Jesus cannot be uncreated (ie. Jesus cannot be divine.)

Looked at this way, it seems like rank absurdity to consider Jesus to be God in any way. However, I believe that this is a false dichotomy insofar as the uncreated and created are pitted against each other as the logic above states without any type of complementarity involved. This would be like saying that since particles cannot be waves and vice versa--and because an atom exhibits tendencies of particles--said atom CANNOT be a wave in any form or fashion. But we realize scientifically the inaccuracy of such a statement. An atom is always fully "wave" and fully "particle", even though those realities manifest in different ways under different circumstances. As a world community, we now have a category of thought (ala quantum mechanics) that allows for two mutually exclusive realities to be attributed to a single object. This category of thought is excellent analogically for approximating what is meant by saying that Jesus is fully God (uncreated) and fully human (created). As such, a rational, informed, intelligent person and still give cogent meaning to the idea.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

glad to see my christian brothers posting but what we need now is input from our muslim brethren concerning what we have presented so far. a discussion is a two-way street and while we would love to continue speaking of the blessed trinity, we do want to see input stemming from a opposing opinions as it relates to the arguments we have made concerning the logical foundation of the trinity.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sol Invictus said:
glad to see my christian brothers posting but what we need now is input from our muslim brethren concerning what we have presented so far. a discussion is a two-way street and while we would love to continue speaking of the blessed trinity, we do want to see input stemming from a opposing opinions as it relates to the arguments we have made concerning the logical foundation of the trinity.
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I agree any debate does need to be a 2 way. an obstacle I see facing us here is that we are both using different sources of truth and considering any other than our own as false.

Point one:

The Trinity we are discussing is a Christian belief. We as Muslims do not accept things such as Christian doctrine or Scriptures to be valid sources of proof. This is a bit of an impasse here.

Point 2:

We accept only the Qur'an and valid Ahadith as being the only valid sources of Islamic belief. Christians do not accept these as valid sources.

We seem to have a problem here, in how we can conduct a debate without an agreement over the sources we accept.

Perhaps it is possible to conduct a discussion of the Trinity without reference to either Christianity or Islam? I do not see how, but suggestions are welcome.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Woodrow:
Perhaps it is possible to conduct a discussion of the Trinity without reference to either Christianity or Islam? I do not see how, but suggestions are welcome.

Since suggestions are welcome...

There has been philosophical argumentation about a necessarily triune uncreated reality in areas of process philosophy that doesn't deal with very many Scriptures at all, if any. But that's a little heady, honestly.

I'd say that the best way to go about it is just talk about what we know from the JEWISH faith. In the Jewish faith, you have God, His "Breath", and His creative "Word". No orthodox, conservative, or even reform Jew in their right mind would deny that these things have historically existed in the Jewish faith. Nor would they deny that God is a self-communicating God who enacts personal self-revelation ala "I am that I am", etc. If you put all those things into a certain framework--divine self-expression as necessarily triune personal event sans Creation--an idea of God's eternal self-expression can easily form the idea of the revealed, self-communicating God as uncreated necessarily triune personal reality insofar as God eternally knows Himself and empowers His own self-expression by that self-knowledge.

As I recall, Woodrow, when I mentioned these ideas elsewhere, you didn't see any real philosophical problem with this idea as long as there was no personality and/or personal identity attributed to either God's "Breath" or "Spoken Word." The "Breath" and "Spoken Word" being facets or aspects of the One Speaking God. Insofar as that's true, the only difference between you and me on this issue is that I DO grant personality/personal identity to those things. Sure, we can disagree on that, via our divergent faith commitments. But it's still the case that it's not an inconceivability or logical absurdity to talk about God being a singular uncreated necessarily triune personal reality.

------------------------------

Prospective Jewish Bases of Uncreated Triunity:

1) YHWH (Name of God)
2) Spirit of YHWH (Holy Spirit / Shekinah)
3) Word of YHWH (Memra)
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Woodrow said:
I agree any debate does need to be a 2 way. an obstacle I see facing us here is that we are both using different sources of truth and considering any other than our own as false.

Point one:

The Trinity we are discussing is a Christian belief. We as Muslims do not accept things such as Christian doctrine or Scriptures to be valid sources of proof. This is a bit of an impasse here.

Point 2:

We accept only the Qur'an and valid Ahadith as being the only valid sources of Islamic belief. Christians do not accept these as valid sources.

We seem to have a problem here, in how we can conduct a debate without an agreement over the sources we accept.

Perhaps it is possible to conduct a discussion of the Trinity without reference to either Christianity or Islam? I do not see how, but suggestions are welcome.
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greetings woodrow, i certainly see what you're saying but you'll note that none of my posts were predicated on the bible but rather on logic. i did make a distinction between believing something out of faith and understanding something from reason (in my example of whether it is logically reasonable to suppose that god could use a 7th century arab to spread his message) earlier and logic tells us that the concept of the trinity is not illogical. we would come to a problem if i had wished to make muslims believe that god does really exist as a trinity but that is not the case (for belief that god exists as a trinity is predicated on belief in the truth of the bible in much the same way that belief in the allah of the qur'an is predicated on the belief in the truth of the qur'an). i did not argue that muslims should agree with christians that god is a trinity but rather that they should cease claiming that the trinity is illogical for it certainly isn't and no one of the islamic faith has shown it to be so. once again, i'm not trying to get muslims to accept the bible (though this would certainly be for the best), but merely to cease claiming to things that they wholly cannot prove. it is perfectly fine to not believe in the trinity and i have never argued against this, what isn't fine is to deny it's coherence in terms of logic.

now if we function on the premise of mere logic (which both muslims and christians claim to adhere to) then this discussion can indeed continue (as it has) and i would still await for an objection by the part of the muslim as it relates to the supposed logical incoherence of the holy trinity. i'm perfectly fine with basing our arguments on simple logic as i have done in my prior posts.

edit: oh dear, i see that the tone of my post could certainly be taken the wrong way. as such, i will say that i have spoken nothing with the purpose of offending. on this board you are one of the very few members of the islamic faith with whom i feel i can have a proper discussion without it degenerating into an exercise in insulting one's interlocutor.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sol Invictus said:
greetings woodrow, i certainly see what you're saying but you'll note that none of my posts were predicated on the bible but rather on logic. i did make a distinction between believing something out of faith and understanding something from reason (in my example of whether it is logically reasonable to suppose that god could use a 7th century arab to spread his message) earlier and logic tells us that the concept of the trinity is not illogical. we would come to a problem if i had wished to make muslims believe that god does really exist as a trinity but that is not the case (for belief that god exists as a trinity is predicated on belief in the truth of the bible in much the same way that belief in the allah of the qur'an is predicated on the belief in the truth of the qur'an).
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The difficulty arises because this is a core issue in both of our faiths. We as humans do have a very strong emotional investment in what is essential to our respective faiths and tend to in see them as self evident truths.

When we hear or read of something that is in violation of anything seen as a self evident truth, we tend to view any explanation, something different can be logically reasoned, as a statement that is attacking us. Emotionalism is very often a built in component of a religious discussion.



Sol Invictus said:
i did not argue that muslims should agree with christians that god is a trinity but rather that they should cease claiming that the trinity is illogical for it certainly isn't and no one of the islamic faith has shown it to be so. once again, i'm not trying to get muslims to accept the bible (though this would certainly be for the best), but merely to cease claiming to things that they wholly cannot prove. it is perfectly fine to not believe in the trinity and i have never argued against this, what isn't fine is to deny it's coherence in terms of logic.
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I can not deny the validity of what you are saying hear. What I see as an issue is this part:
they should cease claiming that the trinity is illogical
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. That carries with it a feeling of being a challenge. I agree it would be nice and may even be possible we can discuss the logic of a trinity existence. But all parties involved need to be able to accept that the logical explanation of such does not necessitate nor suffice as proof. A good mathematician well versed in topology and non-euclidean geometry can show logical explanations as to how the earth is a flat surface, but that is not proof the earth is flat.

For an issue to be conducted in pure logical terms all parties involved need to have a working concept of logic.


Sol Invictus said:
now if we function on the premise of mere logic (which both muslims and christians claim to adhere to) then this discussion can indeed continue (as it has) and i would still await for an objection by the part of the muslim as it relates to the supposed logical incoherence of the holy trinity. i'm perfectly fine with basing our arguments on simple logic as i have done in my prior posts.
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At this point I will attempt to express my reason for viewing the Trinity as illogical, or to be more precise the Christian concept of a Trinity.

For purpose of this reply I am speaking specifically of the Trinity as being the triune existence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To show what I a consider as illogical I had best first describe what I see as the the Christian concept of the trinity.

1. The Christian concept is not 3 attributes of one entity. It is the actual separate personifications of 3 unique identities being one entity. Three beings yet each being the same unique being.

2. Each person of the trinity having it's own unique identity, it's own personal abilities and each with a specific role.

3. Each person of the trinity can and does function separate from the other 2

While that probably is not an all inclusive view of how all Christians view the Trinity, it is what I understand the Christian trinity to be. Correct me if I am wrong. It would be a bit pointless if we are debating different concepts.

I find that concept as being illogical because looking at it we either have 3 attributes, very strong attributes but still attributes of a single God(swt). If that is the case there is no Trinity. It is one god and only one with the ability to do all things. but, he is one and not a Triune.

If that is not correct than it means we have Three separate but essentially equal beings functioning as one being. That does not logically make sense as by definition God(swt) is all powerfull. That would mean the 3 personifications could not be Equal one would be dominate and the other 2 subordinate. Again ruling out the concept of a triune god as that would be 3 gods and not a trinity.



Sol Invictus said:
edit: oh dear, i see that the tone of my post could certainly be taken the wrong way. as such, i will say that i have spoken nothing with the purpose of offending. on this board you are one of the very few members of the islamic faith with whom i feel i can have a proper discussion without it degenerating into an exercise in insulting one's interlocutor.
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No problem Sol. I also sometimes reply without first proof reading.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w


I think that the hypostatic union is linked to the Trinity Christianity has a God in Heaven God the Father and a God on Earth God the Son also all Humans have souls but we are still Mortal because we die.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

greetings woodrow, i must say that this thread is becoming even more enjoyable. while i would love to respond right at the moment, it's far more likely that i'll be unable to do so until sunday evening.

truthseeker63 said:

I think that the hypostatic union is linked to the Trinity Christianity has a God in Heaven God the Father and a God on Earth God the Son also all Humans have souls but we are still Mortal because we die.
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the hypostatic union is only casually related to doctrine of the trinity for one does not necessarily lead nor supposes the other and as such i must say that the above is an error. furthermore, neither the hypostatic union nor the trinity make any claims concerning god's 'location' but rather speak of his being. from these doctrines, we cannot make the claim that what you have stated above is at all a necessary inference.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

As Salamun Alaikum

According to logic , According to physics, according to history, according to mind created, there can be only one unique creator free from time and abode and form.

In an organized group of beings, every member of the group can not be an organized and an obedient at the same time. We here discuss three beings, there can not be such a relationship between them, it is contrary to mind , logic, wisdom. All particles of molecules, all planets of universe have to directed by one organizer. Unique organizer is not in need of having some partners also. Just don't try to make partner one of your kind to the Allah. Jews did that also, as explained in Qur'an. Just even don't take the religion into account. Christian or Muslim , Trinity is illogical and sentimental supposition created by enemy of real Christianity.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Sorry there is a letter mistake above , please read this one,

According to logic , According to physics, according to history, according to mind created, there can be only one unique creator free from time and abode and form.

In an organized group of beings, every member of the group can not be an organizer and an obedient at the same time. We here discuss three beings, there can not be such a relationship between them, it is contrary to mind , logic, wisdom. All particles of molecules, all planets of universe have to directed by one organizer. Unique organizer is not in need of having some partners also. Just don't try to make partner one of your kind to the Allah. Jews did that also, as explained in Qur'an. Just even don't take the religion into account. Christian or Muslim , Trinity is illogical and sentimental supposition created by enemy of real Christianity.
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Woodrow:
At this point I will attempt to express my reason for viewing the Trinity as illogical, or to be more precise the Christian concept of a Trinity.
For purpose of this reply I am speaking specifically of the Trinity as being the triune existence of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. To show what I a consider as illogical I had best first describe what I see as the the Christian concept of the trinity.

Sounds good.

************************

Woodrow:
1. The Christian concept is not 3 attributes of one entity. It is the actual separate personifications of 3 unique identities being one entity. Three beings yet each being the same unique being.

Just helping with language. There are 3 unique personal identities that "emerge" from the eternal self-relationship and self-expression of the ONE God (the Father). What this means is that they are not "separate" like unto how human beings are separate from one another. The 3 are distinct and unique, but not separate or separable.

*****************************

Woodrow:
2. Each person of the trinity having it's own unique identity, it's own personal abilities and each with a specific role.

It's more accurate to say that each person has their unique identity as "person". Trying to delineate personal abilities and roles to the Godhead begins to import human ways of understanding interpersonal "abilities" and "roles"...which inevitably leads to tritheistic thinking.

******************************

Woodrow:
3. Each person of the trinity can and does function separate from the other 2

This is seriously inaccurate. Again, the ONE Speaking God (the Father) does not function as Speaking God with His Spirit and His Word/Image. God, His Word/Image, and Spirit are mutually interdependent, though distinct.

********************************

Woodrow:
I find that concept as being illogical because looking at it we either have 3 attributes, very strong attributes but still attributes of a single God(swt). If that is the case there is no Trinity. It is one god and only one with the ability to do all things. but, he is one and not a Triune. If that is not correct than it means we have Three separate but essentially equal beings functioning as one being. That does not logically make sense as by definition God(swt) is all powerfull. That would mean the 3 personifications could not be Equal one would be dominate and the other 2 subordinate. Again ruling out the concept of a triune god as that would be 3 gods and not a trinity.

Looking at what you say here, we can only have a formal "Trinity" if...

1) the relationship between God, His Word, and His Spirit is not merely one of God possessing "attributes"...like God simply having certain characteristics. There must be an distinct, unique ontological reality granted to God, Word, and Spirit.

and...

2) there is a way that perfect equality (in the all powerful department) occurs between all 3 persons. No one identity can be all-powerful...while the other two are not.

In other words, mere modalism is NOT triunity...and tritheism is NOT triunity.

Fair enough.

Let's start with moving away from modalism first. As I see things, the eternal self-knowing, self-communicating, self-expressing activity of the God the Father brings forth God's own perfect Self-Image (the Son) by way of the Father's agency of self-knowledge and self-communication, God's own Spirit. In other words, the uncreated truine being of God is an eternal ACT of the one God presenting His own Self-Expressing Image to Himself...and reciprocally relating to His Image...with active "oversight" of that relationship by His Spirit. In this way, God, God's Word/Image, and God's Relationship to His Image (via the Spirit) are all "aspects" of one entity. And all have the same uncreated nature because the whole process is grounded in the uncreated One God, the Father; the UNITY of the triune Godhead is the Father. Moreover, God's personality is reflected in God's Word/Image. You may say that the personality of the Father is "transferred" to the Word/Image as personal image. And the personality of the Father is "in" the Father's Spirit which "rests in" the Word/Image. The best analogy I can give for this is the human ability for construction and perception of inner dialogue. We are able to relate to ourselves in the following way:

1) Subject (Talker/Initiator)
2) Self (Listener/Responder)
3) Witness of Subject/Self Relationship. (Watching/Contouring the Conversation)

If you look at yourself, you are actually able to hold a "conversation" with yourself, while witnessing yourself BOTH as communicator TO yourself and recipient of communication FROM yourself...and as witness, communicate to BOTH your "talker" and your "listener." This is because of the inherent self-relational dimension of human existence. It is that which all of the different existentialist philosophers aptly pointed out about human beings and what separates us from animals. For all we know, animals do not have the capacity for inner "conversation" like we do. It's been shown that human beings can actually come to new levels of self-awareness and insight into oneself based upon inner dialogue and conversation.

In like manner, God holds "eternal conversation" within himself via God's self-relationship and self-expression...and the result of that eternal event is uncreated necessarily triune personal reality. God in 3 "persons."

NOW, let's move on to the equality issue.

The question is simple: how can there be 3 "all-powerful" beings. If one is immutably all-powerful, the other two cannot be, the logic runs. Here's the problem. There is a interpentrative, self-giving relationship between God, His Self-Image, and His Spirit such that each of the 3 persons participate in the very life of the others. The characteristics of God are found in each unique person, because of this interpentration. Let's go back to our inner dialogue analogy. The 3 participants in the inner dialogue all have the same characteristics: It's basically you talking to yourself, answering yourself, and overseeing the conversation to yourself. Each participant responds with YOUR characteristics...and each is EQUALLY "you".

If the self-relational ability of the human spirit is a good analogy, then we can see something like how the Uncreated God's self-knowing, self-communicating, self-expressing activity can bring forth a reality of eternal, uncreated necessarily triune personal being.
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

All this above is why anyone who tries to tell me that because I'm a trinitarian that I INHERENTLY and EXPLICITLY DENY the Shema with that belief...all I can conclude is that they obviously DON'T UNDERSTAND what being articulated (ie they are uninformed about what the Trinity ACTUALLY IS). Anyone who looks at the Nicene Creed can see this clearly...

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

...

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one being with the Father.

...

We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father.

Just a cursory examination of the Creed demonstrates that Christians believe that there is ONE GOD...and that that ONE GOD is the God the Father of ALL peoples on the earth in general and of the people of Israel in particular (qua Jewish belief). Both the Word/Son and the Spirit are spoken of in terms of that ONE GOD. And there's a very important REASON for that. Hopefully my discussion above show part of what that reasoning is. Keeping the analogy from the above posts, God the Father is the "Conversation Initiator", the Word/Image/Son of God is the "Listener/Responder", and the Spirit of God is the "Witness/Conversation Enabler"...such that the Trinity is the Eternal Self-Relational, Self-Communication Activity of God.

:D
 
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Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Yielded One,
Would you explain me shortly please , Why one artist wants to be a part of its own art, what is the wisdom in it ? If you know every single details and time periods of a project and all variables and their moves in accordance with every variation, and also all of them is in your hands second by second, I mean Why Creator have to be in his scenario by splitting his personality and limiting his sublime power and feature for resembling a created one ?, And We Muslims believe that Allah Almighty is free from time, a moment or millennium are same for him, I see a lot of contradictions in such a condition but I wonder at first that one ?
 
Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Brief answers. Got it. ;)

Chavundur:
Why one artist wants to be a part of its own art, what is the wisdom in it ? If you know every single details and time periods of a project and all variables and their moves in accordance with every variation, and also all of them is in your hands second by second, I mean Why Creator have to be in his scenario by splitting his personality and limiting his sublime power and feature for resembling a created one ?, And We Muslims believe that Allah Almighty is free from time, a moment or millennium are same for him...

1) One aspect of art is artistic self-expression ie. bestowing the contents of your own subjective experience and self-understanding to others artistically. Basically, it's completely wise for an artist to want to be "found" in and through their art.

2) God doesn't split or divine his personality in the Trinity. It is the necessarily triune reality that just IS self-expression and self-communication. The "Trinity" is the eternal outcome of God the Father's necessarily triune self-experience of knowing, loving, and expressing Himself.

3) It could be argued that in Jesus, God demonstrated his highest self-expression and self-communication in human form. Jesus is the epitome of what it means to be a human in the One God's image and likeness. In fact, this is EXACTLY what Christians believe.

Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.
Hebrews 1:1-3

Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.
John 14:8-11

4) On God and Time.

a) God's omnipresence definitely means that a "moment" and "millenium" (light-year, even?) are the same for him. God's presence in Los Angeles, California is no less there and full...than in the Andromeda Galaxy...or any where else in spatio-temporal Universe as we know it. God is equally in the quantum world of subatomic structure...as God is in the hugest expanse of star clusters in the Universe. So, speaking on those terms, there is no real difference between God's perception of a nanosecond and a light year...or a billion light years.

b) God obviously transcends time/space as we know it. God is uncreated. At the same time (no pun intended), God's transcendent EVENT of self-communication implies a Divine Temporality only experienced by God in God's own inner life. Basically, what I'm saying is that God's divine self-relationship and self-communication implies temporality within God's life...and this temporality is COMPLETELY outside of time/space as we know it as creatures.
 
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