truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YO:I talk about God being an uncreated, necessarily triune, personal reality in the eternal activity of self-relationship and self-expression. There's ONLY 3 aspects to this eternal self-communicative activity: God the Father, His Word/Memra, and His Breath/Spirit. No more is needed. Necessary TRI-UNITY.

Siam: Then I suppose the same agrument would apply to Shema/Tawheed---God is ONE not a Tri-Unity.

Wow. Ok. Let's just do it like this. Jewishly speaking, is YHWH ever without the "Spirit of YHWH" or His "Memra"? Is there any Jewish adherent that you know or have read that would say this? Well, let's say for the sake of argument that adherents to Judaism would affirm that YHWH is never, ever, ever without the Spirit of YHWH or the "Memra" of YHWH. Doesn't this imply tri-unity, with YHWH as the ground of the tri-unity?

1) YHWH
2) Spirit of YHWH
3) Word/Memra of YHWH

TRI-unity in one uncreated personal reality.

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

please do read all of the above in their context seeing that this will make more sense then just the random verse (i would think).

I did go through the references….but can't say much now…cuz I really think I should read more before concluding anything…but as for now I reeeeeeealy doubt the authenticity of such speculative verses…
and in fact I find the bible very confusing….As a Muslim I believe that the Injeel was revealed to Jesus (pbuh) and the Torah to Moses (pbuh)..and Islam requires me to have faith in the previous scriptures also, but the problem is that they are no more in their original form!

But anyway, what do you have to say about these verses….
1) “...the Father is greater than I.”(John 14:28)
2) “...I live because of the Father...” (John 6:57).
3) “By myself I can do nothing...” (John 5:30).
4) “I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17).
5) "No one has ever seen God…" (1 John 4:12)
6) " ….You have never heard his voice nor seen his form"(John 5:37).
7)"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." (Luke 22:42)
8) “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)
9) “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” (Luke 23:46).
10) " He asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "The Messiah of God." (Luke 9:20)
11) "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32)

^ these are a few verses from the Bible that I could find in support of the fact that Jesus never claimed to be God/ God incarnate and neither did his disciples think of him more than a Messenger from God.

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Oh...and we can tie this back...

Personally, I would say that the "hypostatic union" is based upon Jesus' humanity being a direct product of a pre-existent self-disclosing Uncreated Spoken "Word" of God to humanity through Mary...bringing forth the Incarnate "Word" of God. Using Philo's language, Jesus of Nazareth is the incarnation of the uncreated self-communicating "Memra (Word)" of God through which all things are continually created. In essence, God the Father self-communicates himself to humanity in Jesus' human existence by the power of the Holy Spirit of God.


Going back to my earliest ideas...reposting...

--------------------------------

Trinitarian Christian teaching effectively states that the human being Jesus of Nazareth is the effect of God's Uncreated Self-Revealing "Word" (empowered by the Spirit/Breath of God) taking on created human nature. That is to say that the Eternal "Word" has taken on a human body, soul, and spirit in time...becoming a human being.

Insofar God's Self-Revealing Word is uncreated, it cannot be destroyed. At the same time, the human nature taken on by the "Word" can experience human death.

I tend to think of the reality of Jesus from the perspective of the complementary seen in atomic reality: The wave/particle complementarity. The singular reality of an atom functions as BOTH wave and particle, even though some "wavelike" aspects of an atom are MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE from the "particle-like" aspects of that same atom. So the analogy would go as follows:

Atom <=> Incarnate Word (Jesus of Nazareth)

Wave Aspect <=> Uncreated Spoken "Word" of God

Particle Aspect <=> Created human nature (body, soul, spirit)

As long as it's not logically inconsistent for God's directly "spoken word" to actualize as human existence...then I don't see what the problem is.

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In Scripture "the word of the Lord" commonly denotes the speech addressed to patriarch or prophet (Gen. xv. 1; Num. xii. 6, xxiii. 5; I Sam. iii. 21; Amos v. 1-8); but frequently it denotes also the creative word: "By the word of the Lord were the heavens made" (Ps. xxxiii. 6; comp. "For He spake, and it was done"; "He sendeth his word, and melteth them [the ice]"; "Fire and hail; snow, and vapors; stormy wind fulfilling his word"; Ps. xxxiii. 9, cxlvii. 18, cxlviii. 8). In this sense it is said, "For ever, O Lord, thy word is settled in heaven" (Ps. cxix. 89). "The Word," heard and announced by the prophet, often became, in the conception of the seer, an efficacious power apart from God, as was the angel or messenger of God: "The Lord sent a word into Jacob, and it hath lighted upon Israel" (Isa. ix. 7 [A. V. 8], lv. 11); "He sent his word, and healed them" (Ps. cvii. 20); and comp. "his word runneth very swiftly" (Ps. cxlvii. 15).​

I said I would look into this---so here goes.....:exhausted but....its difficult.............I hope I get this right..........:exhausted
above is an attempt to explain tri-unity using the wave-particle complemetary theory which posits that because these two phenomenon (wave and particle) cannot be measured simultaneously, they are mutually exclusive. According to the theory of "wave-particle duality", the "wave funtion" is where all the info of a particle is encoded. The particle behaviour is associated with measurements in quantum mechanics. HOWEVER, the Relational Quantum Mechanics-(RQM) theory says that a "sate of a quantum system is observer dependent"---this means that the observer determines the behaviour of a quantum system.

As to the idea that "wave-particle" cannot be measured at the same time(mutually exclusive)---an experiment in 2007 seems to have determined that it is possible. Some scientist hold the view that the whole universe---at its most basic---- is made out of "waves"/vibrations/vibrating waves.......Prof Micheal Green says "You can think of the Universe as a symphony or a song---for both are produced by strings vibrating in particular ways". ------nice isn't it?

What is interesting about all this from an Islamic perspective---is that, through the pursuit of knowedge about quantum physics, scientists are trying to come of with a theory that unifies everything in a coherent manner. ---in other words ----a theory that has the 2 aspects of Unity and Coherence


Update on wave-particle duality
"Today, it is clear that intermediate particle-wave behaviours exist and, in addition to that, there are single experiments in which both classical wave-like and particle-like behaviours are showed total and simultaneously on an individual system. For instance, in the Bose’s double-prism experiment , tunnelling and perfect anticoincidence were observed in single photon states. Consequently, the meaning of the wave-particle duality must incorporate the simultaneous use of the two classical descriptions in the interpretation of experiments, loosing their original mutual exclusivity , which is incorporated as an extreme case in the new interferometric duality, a continuous quantum concept ."---http://philsci-archive.pitt.edu/3568/

Now, lets get to tri-unity.
I don't know how tri-unity relates to quantum mechanics---but with regards to "Word"/Memra---in the above it is defined as "speech" and that this "speech" has the power to create....(right?)
We know that the universe was created---yet we do not say the Universe is God incarnate or "Word" incarante. We know that we, human beings are also created--and we further know that we are created through God's will, irrespective of the biological process of creation. ---that is, if God did not will it so, we would not exist---our existence is totally dependent on God's will. Whatever the laws and/or process that God may have used for our creation, we do not consider ourselves God incarnate or "Word" incarnate.
YO further states that God/"Word" incarnated for the purpose of communicating to human beings. Since we all agree that God is not arbitrary--then there needs to be a compelling reason for God to communicate in this manner when other modes of communication have sufficed quite well.
If YO were to posit that God chose to communicate this way because it was "tangible"---then this is insufficient reason as scrolls/books/Prophets are a "tangible" communication also.
If YO were to posit that God chose to communicate this way because "we" could understand God---then this too is an insufficient reason---as understanding/knowledge of God does not depend upon "incarnation"---that is irrespective of God incarnating or not---our limited human capacity to understand God does not change....we only have the capacity to understand God from our human perspective.
If YO were to posit that --"what God wills is a mystery" and he can incarnate if he wants to---then we have a concept of a God who goes about incarnating himself into various "creations" for reasons we cannot fathom.....but only known to God.....which, IMO...would also be insufficent reason.....

 

[UsayIsaIsayGod]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

My post got buried under others pretty quick.

I just wanted to state again: this thread is about how an 'incarnated Jesus' could be both immortal and mortal, right? Why don't we stick to that topic and not talk about whether or not incarnation is the case and whatever?

Regarding the topic: are humans not both immortal and mortal? We are mortal in that our physical body may stop functioning, causing our soul and our body to separate, yet we are immortal in that we never cease to 'be', and there will be a glorious resurrection (reuniting of soul and body) and judgment at the end of days, after which soul and body will never separate again -- some will be in Paradise, others in Hell.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Thanks for the getback, Siam. I'll get atcha a little later.

Peace be unto you, my sibling.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Hey, Siam. Some things.

1) It seems that you took my complementarity analogy of the hypostatic union of Jesus...and thought I was talking about the Trinity. I wasn't. The whole of the analogy was to assert this: there is a logically-consistent, conceptual model (complementarity, exampled in mutually-exclusive wave/particle behavior of subatomic/atomic phenomena) can be applied for the sake of a theological model of how Jesus can be "Immortal" (uncreated, God's Word/Memra) and be "Mortal" (created, human soul and body) at the same time. I argue that complementarity is a logically consistent, comprehensible, metaphysically viable way of meaningfully describing the hypostatic union of the Uncreated and Created in Jesus of Nazareth. I'm looking for some one to show me that this assertion is invalid. That's why I'm waiting for someone--anyone--to straightforwardly answer the 3 questions I've posted and reposted.

2) I am not arguing for any possible sufficient reason of God's decision. All I'm arguing for is a a logically-consistent, conceptual model for the hypostatic union of Christ.

3) To me, the Trinity conversation is very tangential to this one. If you look at the whole thread, you can see that the majority of my discourse has been about the hypostatic union of Jesus: How Jesus is "immortal" and "mortal" at the same time.

Just for clarity.

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Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary by the power of God, is a single person having two natures (uncreated "speech", Word/Memra* of God /created, human soul and body) in his singularity of existence LIKE UNTO how a single electron has two "natures" ^(wave, non-locality / particle, locality) in it's singularity of existence. In other words, there is a relationship of complementarity between the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God the Father and a created human body and soul in the ONE human being, Jesus of Nazareth.

* The Memra as a cosmic power furnished Philo the corner-stone upon which he built his peculiar semi-Jewish philosophy. Philo's "divine thought," "the image" and "first-born son" of God, "the archpriest," "intercessor," and "paraclete" of humanity, the "arch type of man" (see Philo), paved the way for the Christian conceptions of the Incarnation ("the Word become flesh") and the Trinity.


^ The complementarity principle states that some objects have multiple properties that appear to be contradictory. Sometimes it is possible to switch back and forth between different views of an object to observe these properties, but in principle, it is impossible to view both at the same time, despite their simultaneous coexistence in reality. For example, we can think of an electron as either a particle or a wave, depending on the situation. An object that's both a particle and a wave would seem to be impossible because, normally, such things are mutually exclusive. Nonetheless, an electron is truly both at once.


So....

1) Is this depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus contrary to logic? If so, please explain how.

2) Is this depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus incomprehensible to reason? If so, please show where and how.

3) Is this depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus antithetical to fundmental beliefs in Islamic metaphysics (ala Qur'an as "uncreated speech" and the heavenly archetypal "Mother of the Book") ? If so, please show where and how.

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Jesus of Nazareth, born of Mary by the power of God, is a single person having two natures (uncreated "speech", Word/Memra* of God /created, human soul and body) in his singularity of existence LIKE UNTO how a single electron has two "natures" ^(wave, non-locality / particle, locality) in it's singularity of existence. In other words, there is a relationship of complementarity between the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God the Father and a created human body and soul in the ONE human being, Jesus of Nazareth. * The Memra as a cosmic power furnished Philo the corner-stone upon which he built his peculiar semi-Jewish philosophy. Philo's "divine thought," "the image" and "first-born son" of God, "the archpriest," "intercessor," and "paraclete" of humanity, the "arch type of man" (see Philo), paved the way for the Christian conceptions of the Incarnation ("the Word become flesh") and the Trinity. ^ The complementarity principle states that some objects have multiple properties that appear to be contradictory. Sometimes it is possible to switch back and forth between different views of an object to observe these properties, but in principle, it is impossible to view both at the same time, despite their simultaneous coexistence in reality. For example, we can think of an electron as either a particle or a wave, depending on the situation. An object that's both a particle and a wave would seem to be impossible because, normally, such things are mutually exclusive. Nonetheless, an electron is truly both at once. So.... 1) Is this depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus contrary to logic? If so, please explain how. 2) Is this depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus incomprehensible to reason? If so, please show where and how. 3) Is this depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus antithetical to fundmental beliefs in Islamic metaphysics (ala Qur'an as "uncreated speech" and the heavenly archetypal "Mother of the Book") ? If so, please show where and how.

---As I tried to explain---mutual exclusivity no longer holds---the updated experiments demonstrate that. Therefore wave and particle are no longer "mutually exclusive." The updated concept says that the universe is all "wave" at its most basic.

---Since all of it is created and dependent/relational to time/space---I don't see how an "uncreated" aspect can get into it?

---At most you might be able to say that since quantum systems are observer-dependent (the mind/knowledge of the observer determines their behaviour) One could perhaps think of God being the "observer" whose knowledge determines the behaviour of the quantum systems.....Though scientists would not agree to this as they theorize such an "observer" would have to be a physical entity in space-time.......

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YO:I talk about God being an uncreated, necessarily triune, personal reality in the eternal activity of self-relationship and self-expression. There's ONLY 3 aspects to this eternal self-communicative activity: God the Father, His Word/Memra, and His Breath/Spirit. No more is needed. Necessary TRI-UNITY.

Siam: Then I suppose the same agrument would apply to Shema/Tawheed---God is ONE not a Tri-Unity.

Wow. Ok. Let's just do it like this. Jewishly speaking, is YHWH ever without the "Spirit of YHWH" or His "Memra"? Is there any Jewish adherent that you know or have read that would say this? Well, let's say for the sake of argument that adherents to Judaism would affirm that YHWH is never, ever, ever without the Spirit of YHWH or the "Memra" of YHWH. Doesn't this imply tri-unity, with YHWH as the ground of the tri-unity?

1) YHWH
2) Spirit of YHWH
3) Word/Memra of YHWH

TRI-unity in one uncreated personal reality.

--'fraid this doesn't work either.....In Judaism the "ruach"(Spirit) is created ---I forget, but it might be in that Jewish encyclopedia link you gave me.
Judaism does not have a Tri-Unity----it simply does not fit ----no matter what kind of re-interpretation and revision you might want to come up with.

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

For this analogy, let... CEO <=> God the Father VP <=> Jesus, God's Messiah Other workers under CEO <=> People loyal to God the Father. Now what I hear from Siam would be analogical to saying this: Only the CEO should receive "CEO-like" respect and authority and it should not be "transferable" or linked to the VP for any reason. I honestly don't see how much more simple I can make this...

inadequate analogy---but I'll work with it....

Unless the CEO wants to abdicate or is incapable---it would be unwise to relinquish authority. Over time the workers will forget the CEO and consider the VP as the head of the company.

unless the CEO is foolish---such a scenario is unlikely.............

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

2) Here's the simplified meaning: God the Father has exalted His Messiah, Jesus, such that all creatures, angelic and human, will "bow the knee" to Jesus...and all of this brings glory to God the Father. Since you've agreed that God can tell creatures to "prostrate themselves" or "bow the knee" to another creature without that inherently being idolatry, then for a person to proclaim Jesus as God's authorized Lord and Messiah--and "bow the knee" to him as such--is NOT idolatry. In other words, a person being under the lordship of Jesus in obedience and glorification to the One God, God the Father, is NOT being idolatrous to God the Father. Just like the angels prostrating before Adam at God's command wasn't idolatrous to God.

---the angels weren't worshipping (Prophet) Adam (pbuh) as God.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

But anyway, what do you have to say about these verses….
1) “...the Father is greater than I.”(John 14:28)
2) “...I live because of the Father...” (John 6:57).
3) “By myself I can do nothing...” (John 5:30).
4) “I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.” (John 20:17).
5) "No one has ever seen God…" (1 John 4:12)
6) " ….You have never heard his voice nor seen his form"(John 5:37).
7)"Father, if you are willing, take this cup from me; yet not my will, but yours be done." (Luke 22:42)
8) “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?” (Matthew 27:46)
9) “Father, into your hands I commit my spirit.” (Luke 23:46).
10) " He asked them, "But who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "The Messiah of God." (Luke 9:20)
11) "No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father." (Mark 13:32)

^ these are a few verses from the Bible that I could find in support of the fact that Jesus never claimed to be God/ God incarnate and neither did his disciples think of him more than a Messenger from God.

i'm glad that you bring up these references. i will not at this time go through each of them in detail but give you just a general statement which is true in every case (though, if you do wish to talk about any references in particular then i am more than happy to do so) that you have brought up. notice that you have brought me references to the effect that jesus is a man, and from the very same books i have brought you passages to the effect that jesus is god. now which one of us is correct? it is more than obvious that it is teh christian who is correct because christians say that christ is both god and man. muslims only claim that jesus is man and so they have to ignore large parts of teh bible which contradict them. christians agree with the whole bible because it clearly teaches what they claim (notice how both of us were able to find references to show that jesus is god and that jesus is man? isn't this what christians have been saying the whole time?). clearly the bible supports my position and not yours (but once again, i am more than happy to discuss particular passages) and so we now are back to the question of coherence. can an individual be both god and man? clearly they can and if you had missed my post on the matter (i am still waiting for the muslim response on this one as well) i would direct you to my very first post on the very first page of this thread.

^ these are a few verses from the Bible that I could find in support of the fact that Jesus never claimed to be God/ God incarnate and neither did his disciples think of him more than a Messenger from God.

the above is wrong. they thought of him as both man and god. mark, peter, luke, john, matthew all have passages with reference to christ's divinity and so you could only make this claim if you decide to ignore everything that disproves your point. i on the other hand have nothing that can disprove my point because my point is exactly that christ was god and man. wherever the bible teaches that christ is human, i can heartily agree with that, wherever the bible teaches that he is god, then i can heartily agree with that as well. what you have done is not disprove my position at all because any reference to the humanity of christ is a reference i agree with as well. so now our problem is once again about whether this is logical or not and so i would once again direct you to my first post.

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

it is more than obvious that it is teh christian who is correct because christians say that christ is both god and man.

It'll be nice if we don't jump to conclusions.....as yet

If I'm not wrong the Christians also believe that Jesus (God the Son according to ya'll) and God the Father have the same essence. Now, I get the point that he was perfect as a man and as a result was liable to do everything that a normal man does (I totally agree with this)…but this definitely goes against your belief that their essence was the same!
If at all the essence was the same why would he say "The Father is greater than I" ?!….this indicates that he considered himself inferior to God the Father of the "Trinity" of which he EQUALLY (acc. to ya'll) is a part!?

And on asking his disciples who he was, Peter said "Messiah of God"…now why such an answer if they believed that he was God Incarnate or Son of God or simply God (if the essence is the same)?!?!

"...yet not my will, but yours be done" <---the Christians say that the will of each person of the Trinity is the same...here Jesus himself testifies to the fact that his will is not the same as God's..

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam:
As I tried to explain---mutual exclusivity no longer holds---the updated experiments demonstrate that. Therefore wave and particle are no longer "mutually exclusive." The updated concept says that the universe is all "wave" at its most basic.

See "Alternative views" in one of the sites I posted.

It seems that you really keep missing the point here. We are not arguing about whether or not "wave monism" or "wave-particle duality" is the better description of ultimate reality. The question is does the principle of complementarity--which essentially says that mutually-exclusive phenomena can be cogent spoken of in terms of a singular reality--is a logically viable way of approaching the hypostatic union of Christ. Sure, you can hold to the "wave-only" view in quantum physics if you choose. That's fine. But that doesn't mean that the idea of complementarity is incomprehensible or logically incoherent. It wouldn't have been the dominating theory up to late if it was. (Incidentally the paper you mentioned said that wave/particle complementarity was still reproducable within the "interferometric duality", the concept still has meaning. )

What I've been asking is simple: Can proposing a theological model based upon a relationship of complementarity between the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God the Father and a created human body and soul in the ONE human being, Jesus of Nazareth, actually convey intelligible theological meaning? I say yes. I would even posit a form of "wave monism" myself with respect to Divine Omni-Presence (ala panENtheism) but that's a whole different ballgame.

So...what's up with those questions, Siam? Can I please get some straightforward answers to the straightforward questions, bro? Please?

**********************************************************

Siam:
inadequate analogy---but I'll work with it....
Unless the CEO wants to abdicate or is incapable---it would be unwise to relinquish authority. Over time the workers will forget the CEO and consider the VP as the head of the company.
unless the CEO is foolish---such a scenario is unlikely

The CEO is not relinquishing authority at all. In fact, it is by the CEO's continuing authority that grounds the delegated authority of the VP. We are not talking about the CEO basically making the VP into CEO. That wouldn't make sense. We are talking about a CEO who promoted a mail room clerk into being VP...and expects his people to respect his authoritatively-made choice as such...and will take disrespect of the VP as an affront to the CEO's authority who exalted, appointed, and authorized the VP.

******************************************

Siam:
the angels weren't worshipping (Prophet) Adam (pbuh) as God.

Nope, they weren't. So, are you saying that if Christians "bow the knee" to Jesus in absolute universal lordship being God the Father's chosen Lord and Messiah...but DIDN'T worship him as the Eternal Word/Son of God...then you'd have no problem, right?

*******************************************

YO: Ok. Let's just do it like this. Jewishly speaking, is YHWH ever without the "Spirit of YHWH" or His "Memra"? Is there any Jewish adherent that you know or have read that would say this? Well, let's say for the sake of argument that adherents to Judaism would affirm that YHWH is never, ever, ever without the Spirit of YHWH or the "Memra" of YHWH. Doesn't this imply tri-unity, with YHWH as the ground of the tri-unity?
1) YHWH
2) Spirit of YHWH
3) Word/Memra of YHWH
TRI-unity in one uncreated personal reality.

Siam: 'fraid this doesn't work either.....In Judaism the "ruach"(Spirit) is created ---I forget, but it might be in that Jewish encyclopedia link you gave me. Judaism does not have a Tri-Unity----it simply does not fit ----no matter what kind of re-interpretation and revision you might want to come up with.

I found more on the citation they used in the Jewish Encyclopedia. It relates to the ten things created on the first day are from Genesis 1 text...

In the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth. The earth was without form and void, and darkness was over the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters. And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. And God saw that the light was good. And God separated the light from the darkness. God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And there was evening and there was morning, the first day.

According to the citation, the "ten things" are said to be...
heaven
earth
tohu
bohu
light
darkness
wind
water
day
night

The "wind" being spoken about seems to be referring to this..."And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."

1) This seems to deal specifically with a literal, young earth creational interpretation of the text. (Which is a debateable issue currently...not as much when and before the article was written) And it was taken to deal with the atmosphere ("wind") that was upon the earth, crucial to life's emergence. See the first part of "Biblical View of the Spirit."

2) At the same time, it is said that the "Divine Spirit" comes directly from God and is inseparable from God's Presence, as in the Shekinah.

3) There is no creative or re-creative activity that God does without his Spirit and Word. That's clear in the Creation account, however it's taken.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Forget Waldo. WHERE'S WOODROW???:happy:

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Maybe here's another way of asking...is the principle of complementarity intelligible at all?

The complementarity principle states that some objects have multiple properties that appear to be contradictory. Sometimes it is possible to switch back and forth between different views of an object to observe these properties, but in principle, it is impossible to view both at the same time, despite their simultaneous coexistence in reality.

In other words, it is conceptually possible to envision a paradoxical situation where a single "object" may have multiple properties belonging to itself that appear to be mutually exclusive...but authentically describe the reality of the singular object. I believe this is TOTALLY intelligible. The long use of the concept in physics up to date actively demonstrates it's intelligibility! If it is, I'm saying that we can say the same thing about Jesus...like this...

Jesus, as a individual personal being, has both uncreated and created properties attributable to his singularity of being. The Uncreated (Word/Memra) and created (human soul and body) simutaneously coexist in Jesus of Nazareth. This appears to be contradictory because the uncreated and created realities definitely have areas of mutually-exclusivity...but this explanation is how reason leads us to describe the reality of Jesus.

Make sense?

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

1) If there were no mysticism in Islam, there would be no Sufism...at all. But there IS Sufism. And Sufism is INHERENTLY mystical. Read books on it, sister. So what are you saying?

The Sufis are a DEVIANT sect!!....Please, I advise you to read the Quran if you want authentic knowledge...you're basing your points on stuff that is not right in itself..if you think mysticism is something acceptable in Islam, then your wrong!!

can't blame you though...cuz you're in a position were you want to justify everything you believe...

Make sense?

NO it doesn't...because we DO NOT need any analogy to explain the position of God Almighty!!

For God's Sake..try to get this straight..

"...There is nothing like unto Him.." (Surat Ash-Shūraá 42:11)

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

i just want to let you know that i'm aware of your post peace_lover and i hope to respond soon (either later on in the evening or tomorrow afternoon).

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Peacelover:
The Sufis are a DEVIANT sect!!....Please, I advise you to read the Quran if you want authentic knowledge...you're basing your points on stuff that is not right in itself..if you think mysticism is something acceptable in Islam, then your wrong!!

Read all of this abou Sufi Muslim, Rabia Basri...and tell me she's a "deviant." Seriously. I want to hear you call her a "deviant" Muslim.

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Peacelover:
For God's Sake..try to get this straight..
"...There is nothing like unto Him.." (Surat Ash-Shūraá 42:11)

I hold to the Shema believed by Jesus, Peacelover. Guess that's all can I say.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Waiting...:uhwhat

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam:
As I tried to explain---mutual exclusivity no longer holds---the updated experiments demonstrate that.

What I've been asking is simple: Can proposing a theological model based upon a relationship of complementarity between the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God the Father and a created human body and soul in the ONE human being, Jesus of Nazareth, actually convey intelligible theological meaning? I say yes. I would even posit a form of "wave monism" myself with respect to Divine Omni-Presence (ala panENtheism) but that's a whole different ballgame.

I also like some of the ideas of panentheism---such as the idea that the created is IN the Divine. Such an idea can explain the vastness of Divine-presence without dividing it---so this aspect of panentheism would be interesting in terms of Tawheed.

---are you familiar with Miroslav Volf?---I'm not very--but read a few commentaries of his works---it seems he has the idea of a Tri-unity (apparently based on something the Anglican Archbishop wrote)...that says that the 3 "aspects"/persons of God do not act on their own---that is, they have only one will and all act as a unit together.
what do you think?
As to the created/uncreated combination----if we take the view that the idea that the created is IN the (undivided) Divine---then such a state/combination cannot be rejected outright----but that brings me to the problem I have with the idea of incarantion. Incarnation is essentially pantheistic--that is, the idea that the "created" has a divinity (or that God is IN all things)---but such an idea seems to divide God into many peices......as if interconnected parts of the divine permeate all things.....This would not work well with Tawheed.
---So ---in reference to your questions---basically, right now I am trying to figure out what parameters would be acceptable to me under Tawheed and which would not....
---I found your statement about a "necessary triune" interesting. ---I am thinking on that.....

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Siam:
inadequate analogy---but I'll work with it....
Unless the CEO wants to abdicate or is incapable---it would be unwise to relinquish authority. Over time the workers will forget the CEO and consider the VP as the head of the company.
unless the CEO is foolish---such a scenario is unlikely

The CEO is not relinquishing authority at all. In fact, it is by the CEO's continuing authority that grounds the delegated authority of the VP. We are not talking about the CEO basically making the VP into CEO. That wouldn't make sense. We are talking about a CEO who promoted a mail room clerk into being VP...and expects his people to respect his authoritatively-made choice as such...and will take disrespect of the VP as an affront to the CEO's authority who exalted, appointed, and authorized the VP.

----That's the problem with the trinity---can never get it right---so you are saying that the "God-incarnate" is subordinate to God-Supreme?
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Siam:
the angels weren't worshipping (Prophet) Adam (pbuh) as God.

Nope, they weren't. So, are you saying that if Christians "bow the knee" to Jesus in absolute universal lordship being God the Father's chosen Lord and Messiah...but DIDN'T worship him as the Eternal Word/Son of God...then you'd have no problem, right?
---Yes (Depending on how you defined "Lord")---but it's what I suggested previously----and some Christians are actually moving in this direction---I think its called the emerging church or something like that.......
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YO: Ok. Let's just do it like this. Jewishly speaking, is YHWH ever without the "Spirit of YHWH" or His "Memra"? Is there any Jewish adherent that you know or have read that would say this? Well, let's say for the sake of argument that adherents to Judaism would affirm that YHWH is never, ever, ever without the Spirit of YHWH or the "Memra" of YHWH. Doesn't this imply tri-unity, with YHWH as the ground of the tri-unity?
1) YHWH
2) Spirit of YHWH
3) Word/Memra of YHWH
TRI-unity in one uncreated personal reality.

Siam: 'fraid this doesn't work either.....In Judaism the "ruach"(Spirit) is created

The "wind" being spoken about seems to be referring to this..."And the Spirit of God was hovering over the face of the waters."

1) This seems to deal specifically with a literal, young earth creational interpretation of the text. (Which is a debateable issue currently...not as much when and before the article was written) And it was taken to deal with the atmosphere ("wind") that was upon the earth, crucial to life's emergence. See the first part of "Biblical View of the Spirit."

2) At the same time, it is said that the "Divine Spirit" comes directly from God and is inseparable from God's Presence, as in the Shekinah.

3) There is no creative or re-creative activity that God does without his Spirit and Word. That's clear in the Creation account, however it's taken.

Ok--so what exactly is this Tri-Unity composed of?
a) God-Supreme, God-Son, Holy Ghost
b) God-Supreme, "Word", Holy Spirit
c) God-Supreme, "Word", Schechina (Sakina in Arabic---translated as the Spirit of traquility)
or perhaps.....
God uses all kinds of "agencies" in his creative process such as "Word", Holy Spirit, God's breath, Sakina, Angels, Spirit, laws, forces ...etc.