truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

God is not like man - Humans need experimental knowledge - God already knows everything why would God use an experiment to know something he already knows - your camparing God to human knowledge - You have to understand that man has limited knowledge he needs experiences - God isnt human as God already knows what there is to know.

you're not answering my point. i told you specifically that i'm not talking about need or anything but simply saying that god does not have experiential knowledge of certain things. you do not seem to understand that it is precisely because god is perfect as he is in himself that he possesses no experiential knowledge of certain things. experiential knowledge refers to the knowledge of the experience of a certain act. god does not possess the experience of sinning and as such eh has no experiential knowledge of sinning. this does not mean that he does not know how individuals feel like when they sin etc. but rather that he himself does not possess the experience pf sinning. experience is a type of knowledge and as such we say that god does not have experiential knowledge of certain things. you do not seem to understand what experiential knowledge refers to.

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

sorry but what does this mean to get at? if you did indeed give me the length of something then i would say that you have given me the measurement of space (which in this case is the measurement of that length). so no, you haven't shown that length is not space.


the above is completely wrong. the fact that in the above you can give me the measurement of only length shows that this point of yours is incorrect. if these were not individually space then we couldn't measure them yet the fact that we can measure them shows that they are space.


you are only displaying your failure to grasp the argument. here is the argument as it relates to matter: just as the one matter exists as solid, liquid, and gas, in the same way does the one god exist as the persons of the father, the son, and the holys pirit. just as solid is not liquid, liquid is not gas, and gas is not either of these, in the same way is the father not the son, the son not the holy spirit, and teh holy spirit is not either of these. just as although the three distinctions are not identical with each other yet we only have one matter and not three matterS, in the same way are the persons of the holy trinity the one god instead of three godS. your example of what is constituted of matter is irrelevant and besides the point for whatever you point to, you can only refer to three distinctions (solid,liquid, gas) within the one matter and as such you still prove my point.


the problem with your claim is the fact that they do work. i am consistent and do not have to begin to deny the reality that length is space etc. if length were not space then it could not be measured by that which space is measured by. if space is measured in cm, m, mm etc. and length by itself is not space then by itself it could not be measured in terms of mm, cm, m etc. yet the fact of the matter is that you can in fact measure length by itself in terms of mm, cm, m etc. and as such your objection is proven false.

So you actually believe if I give you length of something (without the width or the height) that I have given you the measurement of space??? Define space for me - you'll see it has nothing to do with the trinity what so ever - use the dictionery. can you see trinity.

Gas is matter, the liquid is matter, the solid is matter, the chair is matter, my bed is matter I can go on and on - non of this proves the trinty what so ever because non of these are in a trinty - matter is everthing is the physical world - is everything in the physical world (which is made out of matter) God?? clearly matter is not in a trinty. Again use a dictionery and please find it there and you'll see that you false - simple -

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

you're not answering my point. i told you specifically that i'm not talking about need or anything but simply saying that god does not have experiential knowledge of certain things. you do not seem to understand that it is precisely because god is perfect as he is in himself that he possesses no experiential knowledge of certain things. experiential knowledge refers to the knowledge of the experience of a certain act. god does not possess the experience of sinning and as such eh has no experiential knowledge of sinning. this does not mean that he does not know how individuals feel like when they sin etc. but rather that he himself does not possess the experience pf sinning. experience is a type of knowledge and as such we say that god does not have experiential knowledge of certain things. you do not seem to understand what experiential knowledge refers to.

right Jesus isnt God finally we agree on something as Jesus pbuh clearly had experimental knowledge.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

right Jesus isnt God finally we agree on something as Jesus pbuh clearly had experimental knowledge.

zafran, i do believe that that is some selective reading there because as i was writing all of my responses to you i had anticipated this response and so i wrote them in the most correct manner so that i would be able to quote myself (as i will do now) to show how you seem to not have a grasp on the terms being used in this discussion. you will note that i have consistently said:

you're not answering my point. i told you specifically that i'm not talking about need or anything but simply saying that god does not have experiential knowledge of certain things.

greetings safran, the claim isn't that god isn't all knowing but rather that he does not possess the experience of certain things.

my claim wasn't that god needs experiential knowledge but rather that he does not have experiential knowledge of some things.

so no, if you were to read my words more carefully you would see that the claim isn't that god possesses no experiential knowledge (for he does indeed possess the experience of loving, creating etc.) but rather that he doesn't possess the experience of some things (such as sinning, sex, riding a bike).

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

zafran, i do believe that that is some selective reading there because as i was writing all of my responses to you i had anticipated this response and so i wrote them in the most correct manner so that i would be able to quote myself (as i will do now) to show how you seem to not have a grasp on the terms being used in this discussion. you will note that i have consistently said:







so no, if you were to read my words more carefully you would see that the claim isn't that god possesses no experiential knowledge (for he does indeed possess the experience of loving, creating etc.) but rather that he doesn't possess the experience of some things (such as sinning, sex, riding a bike).

Your proving my point Jesus isnt God has he DID experience things that you claim God cannot. I'm reading like you read my posts - I think thats fair.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Your proving my point Jesus isnt God has he DID experience things that you claim God cannot. I'm reading like you read my posts - I think thats fair.

if you feel that i have been dishonest in my reading of your posts then i should apologize and say that i have not at all purposely tried to change your meaning. your question then brings us to the matter of the hypostatic union. once more i will say that i wrote my response in such a manner that when this objection would come up, i would be able to simply quote from what i had written (as i will do now) to show how you have misread my statements:

you do not seem to understand that it is precisely because god is perfect as he is in himself that he possesses no experiential knowledge of certain things.

but rather that he himself does not possess the experience pf sinning.

notice the statement "as he is in himself". this simply means to speak of the divine nature. in his own nature god cannot have experiential knowledge of certain things, such as riding a bike, the experience of learning a certain fact etc. but given that christ was both god and man, he could possess experiential knowledge of certain things...such as christ growing in wisdom and yet knowing all things (two things which the bible affirms), such as christ eating yet in his nature as god having no need to do so but should he wish for the human nature to work as it is intended to, he can require of himself food to eat. this then bring us to the topic of two natures and whether it is logical for a being to be both god and man at the same time and as such i would point you towards my very first post on the very first page that deals with this. i would very much like it if you could then try to pick it apart and see if my argument holds up.

i'll be waiting.

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

if you feel that i have been dishonest in my reading of your posts then i should apologize and say that i have not at all purposely tried to change your meaning. your question then brings us to the matter of the hypostatic union. once more i will say that i wrote my response in such a manner that when this objection would come up, i would be able to simply quote from what i had written (as i will do now) to show how you have misread my statements:





notice the statement "as he is in himself". this simply means to speak of the divine nature. in his own nature god cannot have experiential knowledge of certain things, such as riding a bike, the experience of learning a certain fact etc. but given that christ was both god and man, he could possess experiential knowledge of certain things...such as christ growing in wisdom and yet knowing all things (two things which the bible affirms), such as christ eating yet in his nature as god having no need to do so but should he wish for the human nature to work as it is intended to, he can require of himself food to eat. this then bring us to the topic of two natures and whether it is logical for a being to be both god and man at the same time and as such i would point you towards my very first post on the very first page that deals with this. i would very much like it if you could then try to pick it apart and see if my argument holds up.

i'll be waiting.

I'll debunk you - where does christ in his own words say I'm God - its preety imporatnat so it clearly should very clearly be stated that Jesus is God by Jesus himself - In Jesus the mans own words. Also find me where he says he has no natures. Jesus pbuh clearly doesnt talk about the trinty which Isee you've accepted defeat on - you see what a difference actually reading peoples posts makes.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I'll debunk you - where does christ in his own words say I'm God - its preety imporatnat so it clearly should very clearly be stated that Jesus is God by Jesus himself - In Jesus the mans own words. Also find me where he says he has no natures.

where in the qur'an does jesus say that he is the messiah or that he is a word from allah? if you believe these things to be true when there is no statement in the qur'an where jesus says "i am the messiah" or "i am a word from allah" then you have shown yourself to be inconsistent. you might counter with the fact that that's not important but then i should ask you, is belief in the person whom god has sent in order to give a person guidance not important?

that said, the jesus claims to be god by claiming the prerogatives of god:

"‘Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay everyone for what he has done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end… I, Jesus, have sent my angel to testify to you about these things for the churches. I am the root and the descendant of David, the bright morning star.’ … He who testifies to these things says, ‘Surely I am coming soon.’ Amen. Come, Lord Jesus!" Revelation 22:12-13, 16, 20

who according to islam is the first and the last?

And to God belongs the First and the Last. S. 53:25 Arberry

He is the First and the Last, and the Outward and the Inward; and He is Knower of all things. S. 57:3 Pickthall

who according to islam will judge every individual?

"Every soul shall have a taste of death; and only on the Day of Judgment shall you
be paid your full recompense..." (Qur'an, Ali Imran:185).

from the above we can clearly see that jesus was claiming to be god. if you don't think that the above is a claim of divinity then can you explain to us why the qur'an would say that allah is the first and the last as a proof that he is god? could you then also explain to us why it states that god will judge every individual? if a human were to claim that it will be them who will judge every soul on judgement day is this not a claim to being god? can you go around making such claims without these being blasphemous because you insinuate that you will do the things that god himself has said that he will personally do? if you disagree with this then i dare say that you disagree with islam. if you agree with my point then you agree with the fact that christ was claiming to be god. it's rather simple actually.

Jesus pbuh clearly doesnt talk about the trinty which Isee you've accepted defeat on - you see what a difference actually reading peoples posts makes.

thanks, i actually did not see your last reply concerning the issue of the trinity and far from refuting me all you have shown is that you either do not understand the basic physics of nature or that you are being dishonest in claiming that length is not space. but let's get to your post:

( a )So you actually believe if I give you length of something (without the width or the height) that I have given you the measurement of space??? ( b ) Define space for me - you'll see it has nothing to do with the trinity what so ever - use the dictionery. can you see trinity.

Gas is matter, the liquid is matter, the solid is matter, the chair is matter, my bed is matter I can go on and on - non of this proves the trinty what so ever because non of these are in a trinty - matter is everthing is the physical world - is everything in the physical world (which is made out of matter) God?? ( c ) clearly matter is not in a trinty. Again use a dictionery and please find it there and you'll see that you false - simple -

( a ) alright, let us suppose that you have given me a measurement of the length of something, you claim that in doing so you have not given me the measurement of space and as such i must ask you, what have you given me?

( b ) i don't know what other definition you need other than the basic one that the one space is existent as the dimensions/distinctions of length, width, and height. neither of these distinctions are identical to the other and yet each possess the very prerogatives of space. that said, we do not possess three spaces but rather one. that sure does sound like a trinity to me.

( c ) how can you claim that matter does not exist as a trinity when you've just named three distinctions within the one matter that are not identical to each other and yet we possess not three matterS but only one. that is three in one my friend and you'll have to do more than simply claim that this is not so in order to prove your point. you keep pointing to your bed and i must ask, what does that prove? you're still pointing to a solid. not matter how many other solid objects you point to you are still pointing to one distinction within matter which is not either liquid or gas but still is matter! you bring up the point of pantheism and i must say, what does this have to do with the subject? have i claimed that god is everything? have i claimed that god is matter or rather that matter exists as an expression of the concept of three in one. please stick to the matter at hand instead of going off on a tangent.

in the hope of furthering this discussion, here is what i will ask you:

how do you measure space? is it true to say that we variously measure space in terms of mm, cm, m etc? if this is indeed true then the units mm, cm, and m can only be used to measure space (in the same way that minutes, seconds, hours, can only be used to measure time). now, do we then not also measure length by itself in terms of mm, cm, m etc.? if we can measure length by itself in the same way that we measure space then it follows that length is space. it is like saying, we can measure the past by itself in terms of seconds, minutes, hours and thus it follows that the past is itself time (but then remember, the past is not the present, the present not the future, and the future not either of these but they each are the one time). in order to prove your point you have to show how length is not space and this is something that you have not done at all but merely asserted.

the logic is quite simple yet also quite robust. which is why you have no choice but to deny the reality of space as it relates to length, width, and height but this is deceiving. were you taught in school that length is not space? i can see that you fail to grasp the argument from the three distinctions within matter and as such for your betterment i am trying a different approach in the hopes that you will be able to understand the point i'm getting at. so once again, things which are not time cannot be measured in the manner that time is measured. we measure time by way of seconds, minutes, hours etc. and in the same manner do we measure the past (because the past not only is a distinction within time but it is time itself). yet unlike the past etc. i cannot measure my desk in seconds or minutes or hours because the properties common to my desk (length, width, height) are not the expression of the one time. yet we can however measure length, width, height by way of mm, cm, m etc. because they are in fact the expression of the one true space.

a measurement relates to how much of something we have. if i were speaking of something that happened 5 minutes ago, then it would be the case that the sum of the past i would be talking about is 5 minutes (i.e. the measurement of the past is 5 minutes' worth). this would mean that i'm talking about time itself even though i'm only speaking of the past (and not the present or the future). in the same way does the measure of how much length we possess speak of how much space one possesses even though they may just be speaking of length.

in the above i have shown you that you cannot deny that length in itself is space without also denying that the past in itself is time and we can clearly see how absurd and illogical this is. this my friend is a type of reductio ad absurdum argument.

 

[Chavundur]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Dear forum attendants here I paste 11 sentences of Sol Invictus with no comment. Lets say why these 11 sentences are opposite to each other. Why trinity approach is illogical.

All possess the same attributes
They subsist in the same essence
They comprise the single divine being
They take on particular roles
One of them can be crucified
They have ontological equality and mutual indwelling
They can function 'separately' ( but we cannot really speak of distinct persons),
There is only a single divine will
Trinity knows the others full well,
None can act in opposition to the others
It is logical ,if You try to believe necessarily

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Dear forum attendants here I paste 11 sentences of Sol Invictus with no comment. Lets say why these 11 sentences are opposite to each other. Why trinity approach is illogical.

All possess the same attributes
They subsist in the same essence
They comprise the single divine being
They take on particular roles
One of them can be crucified
They have ontological equality and mutual indwelling
They can function 'separately' ( but we cannot really speak of distinct persons),
There is only a single divine will
Trinity knows the others full well,
None can act in opposition to the others
It is logical ,if You try to believe necessarily

i'd much rather you refer them to the post you got the above from as i have been doing with every single individual who discussed with me. that said, while i have not checked everything else, one misrepresentation of my words which immediately jumped out at me was the following:

They can function 'separately' ( but we cannot really speak of distinct persons)

the above is not what i had said. rather this is what i had said:

( c ) it is true that each member of the trinity can function 'separately' from the other, yet given that there is only a single divine will, we must identify what exactly we mean by separate. each member of the trinity knows the others full well and there is a mutual indwelling between these (each exists within the other, hence why we cannot really speak of separate persons but rather distinct persons).

so your representation of my belief is actually wrong. that said, i would very much like for anyone interested to go back an dread my words within context. primarily i would direct everyone to my post #15 and #56.

 

[Muhaba]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

sorry i can't take part in this discussion as much as i would like to since i don't have internet at home and can only come to internet cafe once or twice a week.

if a christian wants to understand whether the trinity can be possible or not, its necessary to look at it from every angle.

for example, we know that God sent many prophets and messengers before Prophet Jesus. All of them preachedhat God is one. none of them even hinted to there being a trinity. Then Jesus came and he also preached the same thing (there are no words of Jesus that hint at the trinity). then some Paul person came and started spreading stories of the trinity. in the encycopedia of christianity it is written that for 300 years after Jesus, there was no knowledge of the trinity but after 300 years, the counil of nicia made trinity a part of christianity. this shows that the beliefe of trinity is manmade and not part of Jesus's original message.
after ward, the final Prophet (Muhammad SAW) came and once again stated that God is one and trinity is incorrect.

so you've got to compare the message of the prophets before Jesus, the message that Prophet Jesus brought and the message that Prophet Muhammad SAW brought to derive the answer whether the trinity is true or not. The message that all the prophets before Jesus brougt was that God is one , single and unique. if you say that Jesus preached about the trinity, then why didn't the messengers before him say anything about it? if tirinity were true, then all messengers would have preached it. since all messengers of God didn't hint at the trinity, that shows that it is incorrect.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam:
This is the problem with western reductionist type of thinking---it is imbalanced so you end up with misunderstandings or partial understanding. God does not "think"/know subjectively/objectively!!!! Omnicient means God knows everything in all its variety---WHOLISTICALLY. That is precisely why God does not "need" to incarnate himself into a tree to feel/know how a tree funtions or what a tree is!!!!

Ok. Now we're gonna go through this niiiiiiiiice and slooooooooooow so we can see something, ok? To you, Siam, has Allah ever had the PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of human death? I'm not asking you does Allah know the ins and outs of how human beings and other creaturely individually experience death or anything like that. Of course, Allah knows that. All knows all of our unconscious, pre-conscious, and conscious thoughts and emotions. What I'm asking is does Allah HIMSELF have a subjective understanding and personal experience dying and death? If Allah absolutely CANNOT die or experience death personally because of being Allah...how can you say that Allah has had the subjective, personal experience and belief of dying unto death? How can Allah on any level say "I have experienced my own death."?

That's how you will answer my question: Does Allah know what it feels like to experience the process of death personally, such that he can say "I have experienced my own death."? If so, please show me how, in your framework.

By the way, it's NOT a mark against God's omniscience to say this. It's simply talking about God's experience of God's own transcendence.

********************************************

Siam:
Again....you have misunderstood the story...can discuss it if you want, but as a seperate topic. (refer to Surah 2 verses 30-39, then read surah 7 verses 11-17---it is an interesting topic)

Surah 7:12, right...where Satan says he's "better" than Adam, an example of Satan's arrogance, yes? I've already got that. Mansur Al-Hallaj's take is not antithetical with this idea...but takes a different spin on it to make a point. (Which I thought was well made). The same principle applies: If God commands others to "prostrate oneself" or "bow the knee" to someone, to NOT do so is to break faith with God. This can be done from the pride of comparison (Surah 7:12) OR the pride of self-righteousness (Al-Hallaj).

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Siam:
If you are referring to the story of (Prophet)Adam(pbuh) in the Quran---that God asked "others" to worship (Prophet) Adam (pbuh) as God, then you are mistaken.

No, I didn't say that God told them to worship Adam as God. The whole reason I referred to the story at all (particular Al-Hallaj's take) was to show that God CAN tell creatures to "prostrate themselves" or "bend the knee" to another creature WITHOUT that inherently being idolatry.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Oh...and Siam. Could you answer those 3 questions about my view of the hypostatic union of Jesus. I'd really like to hear what you have to say about those...

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Brother Woodrow?

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Reposting for Siam and Woodrow..

-------------------

For ease of reference, when I say "my depiction of the hypostatic union", I am specifically talking about the following:

Jesus of Nazerath, born of Mary by the power of the "Breath" of God, is a single person having two natures (uncreated "speech", "Word/Memra*" of God /created, human soul and body) in his singularity of existence JUST LIKE a single atom has two natures (wave, non-locality / particle, locality) in it's singularity of existence.

So....

1) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus contrary to logic? If so, please explain how.

2) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus incomprehensible to reason? If so, please show where and how.

3) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus antithetical to fundmental beliefs in Islamic metaphysics (ala Qur'an as "uncreated speech" and the heavenly archetypal "Mother of the Book") ? If so, please show where and how.

------------------------------------------

* The Memra as a cosmic power furnished Philo the corner-stone upon which he built his peculiar semi-Jewish philosophy. Philo's "divine thought," "the image" and "first-born son" of God, "the archpriest," "intercessor," and "paraclete" of humanity, the "arch type of man" (see Philo), paved the way for the Christian conceptions of the Incarnation ("the Word become flesh") and the Trinity.
​

**************************************************************

Complementarity.

The complementarity principle states that some objects have multiple properties that appear to be contradictory. Sometimes it is possible to switch back and forth between different views of an object to observe these properties, but in principle, it is impossible to view both at the same time, despite their simultaneous coexistence in reality. For example, we can think of an electron as either a particle or a wave, depending on the situation. An object that's both a particle and a wave would seem to be impossible because, normally, such things are mutually exclusive. Nonetheless, an electron is truly both at once.

Using this as analogy, there is a relationship of COMPLEMENTARITY between the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God the Father and a created human body and soul in the ONE human being, Jesus of Nazareth.




​

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I would think of it like this: If my described theological concept of Jesus being "Immortal" (Uncreated) and "Mortal" (Created) at the same time is logically viable, understandable to basic use of reason, and compatible with Islamic metaphysical possibility...is there any reason not to accept that idea as valid?

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam:
This is the problem with western reductionist type of thinking---it is imbalanced so you end up with misunderstandings or partial understanding. God does not "think"/know subjectively/objectively!!!! Omnicient means God knows everything in all its variety---WHOLISTICALLY. That is precisely why God does not "need" to incarnate himself into a tree to feel/know how a tree funtions or what a tree is!!!!

Ok. Now we're gonna go through this niiiiiiiiice and slooooooooooow so we can see something, ok? To you, Siam, has Allah ever had the PERSONAL EXPERIENCE of human death? I'm not asking you does Allah know the ins and outs of how human beings and other creaturely individually experience death or anything like that. Of course, Allah knows that. All knows all of our unconscious, pre-conscious, and conscious thoughts and emotions. What I'm asking is does Allah HIMSELF have a subjective understanding and personal experience dying and death? If Allah absolutely CANNOT die or experience death personally because of being Allah...how can you say that Allah has had the subjective, personal experience and belief of dying unto death? How can Allah on any level say "I have experienced my own death."?

That's how you will answer my question: Does Allah know what it feels like to experience the process of death personally, such that he can say "I have experienced my own death."? If so, please show me how, in your framework.

By the way, it's NOT a mark against God's omniscience to say this. It's simply talking about God's experience of God's own transcendence.

----slow or fast---what is nonsense will remain nonsense There are two problems with your idea ---1) your concept of omnicient is deficient and 2) your idea that God has needs/desires which an "incarnation fills, is inadequate to the majesty of God.

1) Omnicient means---all-knowing----therefore God knows all. If we are to understand this in Islamic language, it would be that God is most Knowledgeable (the same way we say God is most Compassionate). When we as human beings understand words such as knowledge, compassion....etc we do so from a human-centric perspective (ofcourse)---but when these words are understood as God's attributes, it needs to be accepted that they are far beyond human experience. Therefore, when we say God is Most knowledgeable, it means God's knowledge encompasses far beyond the limitations of our human abilities to acquire knowledge. We may need to acquire knowledge from "experience"---however, this is a human limitation that does not/cannot apply to God who is ofcourse NOT human.

2) the other assumption you are making is that God wants/needs to have an experience of death, (or sin/evil as Sol suggested---a totally horrible notion). From our limited human-centric perspective...needs/wants arise out of a lack---we feel we lack something so we need/want in order to fill the lack. However, if we understand God's attribute of most Perfect, it would mean that God has no needs or wants because God lacks nothing---He is Perfection.

Perhaps for Christians, a concept of God that is less than omnicient as well as imperfect, works fine........but for Muslims, such a concept would be inadequate to the
the Majesty of God
********************************************

Siam:
Again....you have misunderstood the story...can discuss it if you want, but as a seperate topic. (refer to Surah 2 verses 30-39, then read surah 7 verses 11-17---it is an interesting topic)

Surah 7:12, right...where Satan says he's "better" than Adam, an example of Satan's arrogance, yes? I've already got that. Mansur Al-Hallaj's take is not antithetical with this idea...but takes a different spin on it to make a point. (Which I thought was well made). The same principle applies: If God commands others to "prostrate oneself" or "bow the knee" to someone, to NOT do so is to break faith with God. This can be done from the pride of comparison (Surah 7:12) OR the pride of self-righteousness (Al-Hallaj).
----in order to prevent a misunderstanding, I asked you to read parts of Surah 2. From an Islamic/Quranic perspective God does not "command" arbitrarily---there is a purpose/reason. Iblis understood the reason/purpose (which was demonstrated to him) and refused because of pride arrogance......As I have explained on several previous occassions---the Quran does not condone blind belief/faith.

*********************************************
Siam:
If you are referring to the story of (Prophet)Adam(pbuh) in the Quran---that God asked "others" to worship (Prophet) Adam (pbuh) as God, then you are mistaken.

No, I didn't say that God told them to worship Adam as God. The whole reason I referred to the story at all (particular Al-Hallaj's take) was to show that God CAN tell creatures to "prostrate themselves" or "bend the knee" to another creature WITHOUT that inherently being idolatry.
---I can agree to that---and if so, it offers an interesting interpretation to your assertion that God wants you to "worship" Jesus Christ(pbuh). While I did not see proof of such an assertion--let's leave that aside for the moment and assume that such exists----Let us further also assume that, as you say, there is an "uncreated/Divine" aspect to Jesus Christ(pbuh). The spirit of the Shema(Tawheed) require worship of God alone. Yet, John 14:6 says "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". Is it possible that God contradicts himself or is it more likely that humans misunderstand?

Perhaps a better way for Christians to adhere to the Shema as well as "worship" Jesus Christ(pbuh) would be to dedicate ALL worship to God alone but follow the Guidance/Sunna of Jesus Christ(pbuh) with his sayings and his life being the practical example that every Christian could emulate........This type of "worship" of Jesus Chrsit(pbuh) would result in both personal spiritual benefit as well as external social benefit......and in this way---would accomplish God's will (which is to benefit all of God's creations)

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

YO, I will look into the hypostatic union----The Athanasian creed seems illogical in the way it is phrased----however, it is possible that this is because of the limitations of the english language...?

Christians claim that 3-in-1 concept of God is the same as the One God.
Would you then also accept that 100s-in-1 concept of God is the same as the 3-in-1 concept of God?

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Jesus of Nazerath, born of Mary by the power of the "Breath" of God, is a single person having two natures (uncreated "speech", "Word/Memra*" of God /created, human soul and body) in his singularity of existence

Are you then saying that this "Word/Memra" is the totality of God?

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Siam, I noticed that you did NOT answer my question...

Does Allah know what it feels like to experience the process of death personally, such that he can say "I have experienced my own death."? If so, please show me how, in your framework.

I don't see how you can say this. And I think YOU know that you can't say that. But...let's just go with what you've said...

Siam:
1) Omnicient means---all-knowing----therefore God knows all. If we are to understand this in Islamic language, it would be that God is most Knowledgeable (the same way we say God is most Compassionate). When we as human beings understand words such as knowledge, compassion....etc we do so from a human-centric perspective (ofcourse)---but when these words are understood as God's attributes, it needs to be accepted that they are far beyond human experience. Therefore, when we say God is Most knowledgeable, it means God's knowledge encompasses far beyond the limitations of our human abilities to acquire knowledge. We may need to acquire knowledge from "experience"---however, this is a human limitation that does not/cannot apply to God who is ofcourse NOT human.

Philosophically, omniscience means knowing everything that is possible of being known proper to said omnscient being. An omniscient being cannot know the area of a square circle because there is no such thing. To say that an omniscient being cannot know an absurdity is NOT speaking against omniscience. In the same time, to say that an omniscient being--who happens to also be utterly transcendent of what we call life or death (like God the Father)--cannot know the experience of it's own demise is NOT speaking against omniscience. God the Father knows all experiences that are POSSIBLE for Him to know given who He is as "Unbegotten."

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Siam:
2) the other assumption you are making is that God wants/needs to have an experience of death, (or sin/evil as Sol suggested---a totally horrible notion). From our limited human-centric perspective...needs/wants arise out of a lack---we feel we lack something so we need/want in order to fill the lack. However, if we understand God's attribute of most Perfect, it would mean that God has no needs or wants because God lacks nothing---He is Perfection.

This is a gross misunderstanding of what I'm saying. I'm not saying that God shares the created experience of death from some limitation or lack in Him. I'm saying that this identification was for OUR sakes...so that WE can know that God personally shares our all-two-human experience on some level. This idea of God's sharing and identifying with humanity is NOT based in some lack or limitation in God at all. Just look at how Scripture describes it...Hebrews 4 speaking about Jesus...

For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin. Let us then with confidence draw near to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy and find grace to help in time of need.

The confession is that, in and through Jesus, we KNOW that we have an intercessor/high priest with God right now who has walked a "mile" in human shoes as Incarnate Word. We know that God KNOWS what we go through as far as temptation...because, through the personal experience of the Incarnate Word/Memra, he has shown that to be true.

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YO: I didn't say that God told them to worship Adam as God. The whole reason I referred to the story at all (particular Al-Hallaj's take) was to show that God CAN tell creatures to "prostrate themselves" or "bend the knee" to another creature WITHOUT that inherently being idolatry.
Siam: ---I can agree to that---


Cool.

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Siam:
and if so, it offers an interesting interpretation to your assertion that God wants you to "worship" Jesus Christ(pbuh). While I did not see proof of such an assertion--let's leave that aside for the moment and assume that such exists----Let us further also assume that, as you say, there is an "uncreated/Divine" aspect to Jesus Christ(pbuh). The spirit of the Shema(Tawheed) require worship of God alone. Yet, John 14:6 says "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the father except through me". Is it possible that God contradicts himself or is it more likely that humans misunderstand?

1) Jesus' statement doesn't break Shema. Again, God the Father is the one who set all this up...and there are multiple texts that specifically say that everything that Jesus is doing--even his lordship--is for the glorification of the One God, God the Father.

2) Jesus' statement makes sense with him being the Word/Memra of God. No one comes to the Father but through His self-declarative Word/Memra. God's Word is the "way" to God, the "truth" about God" and filed with the "life" of God. It ties back to John 1...

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life, and the life was the light of men. The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.


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Siam:
Perhaps a better way for Christians to adhere to the Shema as well as "worship" Jesus Christ(pbuh) would be to dedicate ALL worship to God alone but follow the Guidance/Sunna of Jesus Christ(pbuh) with his sayings and his life being the practical example that every Christian could emulate........This type of "worship" of Jesus Chrsit(pbuh) would result in both personal spiritual benefit as well as external social benefit......and in this way---would accomplish God's will (which is to benefit all of God's creations)

I'd say that all Christians need is a decent education in and/or understanding of what they supposedly already believe.

Christianly speaking, it's IMPOSSIBLE to "worship" Jesus as exalted Lord and Messiah...and NOT worship and glorify God the Father who exalted and anointed Jesus as such!

Remember, the Messiah's whole existence, mission, and exaltation was for God the Father's glorification. Let me show you something...1 Corinthians 15:20-28...

But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For “God has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God (the Father) may be all in all.

Let me lay out the steps of what Paul is saying here..

1) God the Father raises Jesus from the dead.

2) God the Father exalts Jesus to reign over "ever rule and every authority and power"; this is what Paul means that God the Father has put everything in subjection to Jesus.

3) Whenever all things have been consolidated under Jesus as God's reigning authority, then Jesus will place HIMSELF (and all he has) under God the Father, such that God the Father is exalted as "all in all."

For any Christian to believe that "worship" of Jesus is a STAND ALONE affair is just simply biblically illiterate. It's right in the text that the reign of Jesus is given to him by God the Father...and that Jesus GIVES that reign BACK to God the Father. Everything is from, of, and to God the Father in worship.

In short, for one to recognize Jesus' lordship fully (bow the knee, as it were), one HAS to worship the ONE GOD, God the Father, whom Jesus serves even as ascendent Messiah right now at God's right hand!

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Siam:
YO, I will look into the hypostatic union----The Athanasian creed seems illogical in the way it is phrased----however, it is possible that this is because of the limitations of the english language...?

Could very well be. Plus they didn't have quantum physics back then. They only had very limited analogical processes to use in the explication of the doctrine. We now have many more intellectual categories to work with.


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Siam:
Christians claim that 3-in-1 concept of God is the same as the One God. Would you then also accept that 100s-in-1 concept of God is the same as the 3-in-1 concept of God?

Nope. Remember, I talk about God being an uncreated, necessarily triune, personal reality in the eternal activity of self-relationship and self-expression. There's ONLY 3 aspects to this eternal self-communicative activity: God the Father, His Word/Memra, and His Breath/Spirit. No more is needed. Necessary TRI-UNITY

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Siam:
Are you then saying that this "Word/Memra" is the totality of God?

What do you mean the "totality" of God? I'm saying that God the Father's "uncreated speech" is always inseparably with God the Father's Presence, even sans Creation.