truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

alright peacelover. i wasn't too sure so i thought i'd ask. that said, reply whenever you find the time, i'm patient and i'm sure that i'll be able to find something to preoccupy myself with as i wait for your response. the same goes for everyone else whom i had asked for a reply within this thread.

(that said, congratulations on becoming a full member)

 

[missy]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

could you answer the 3 questions that I'm still waiting for people to answer?

Ok. I'd like you to clearly articulate WHY this belief is 1) unreasonable, 2) illogical, and 3) misunderstands divine nature. No mere assertions, please. SHOW me what doesn't work about it. You know that I will listen to REASON...so let's reason together, shall we? Thanks!

are you referring to these??

(that said, congratulations on becoming a full member)

In the pursuit of pleasing God!! May He accept the good deeds we send forth. Ameen

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

I could see Satan saying this to Allah when Allah said "Prostrate before Adam"...

"I will not bow to Your creature, Adam, O Great Allah. I will NOT! I will not do it because worship-like prostration is to be done to You and You ALONE! There is none co-equal or like You...especially not a mere CREATION of Yours. No, there is NONE equal to You...so I shall NOT bow to Adam, even though it is You, Allah, who is asking me to do so. You--of all people--should understand WHY I'm not bowing. I will DISOBEY You to keep my sense of HONOR towards You and Your Uniqueness."

This is JUST what Peter said to God, in effect...in the Acts 10 passage.

This is Satan-ic thinking!

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Reposting for Peacelover...

-------------------

For ease of reference, when I say "my depiction of the hypostatic union", I am specifically talking about the following:

Jesus of Nazerath, born of Mary by the power of the "Breath" of God, is a single person having two natures (uncreated "speech", "Word/Memra*" of God /created, human soul and body) in his singularity of existence JUST LIKE a single atom has two natures (wave, non-locality / particle, locality) in it's singularity of existence.

So....

1) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus contrary to logic? If so, please explain how.

2) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus incomprehensible to reason? If so, please show where and how.

3) Is my depiction of the hypostatic union in Jesus antithetical to fundmental beliefs in Islamic metaphysics? If so, please show where and how.

------------------------------------------

* The Memra as a cosmic power furnished Philo the corner-stone upon which he built his peculiar semi-Jewish philosophy. Philo's "divine thought," "the image" and "first-born son" of God, "the archpriest," "intercessor," and "paraclete" of humanity, the "arch type of man" (see Philo), paved the way for the Christian conceptions of the Incarnation ("the Word become flesh") and the Trinity.
​

 

[Chavundur]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

a ) The three states of matter does not make one matter three. Very very weak analogy can be produced in this way. If you describe one thing with three atributes, You can't ascribe different meanings to these atributes so easily. Mind and spirit could be used at this point, You can say that your mind and your spirit govern your body without conflicting. So you are two person. It is unrejectable , you can add different persons into that conclusion.


B) " imagine we were speaking of space: "of length, width, and height---these three OK...it was one at first. Now all of a sudden these three things come into place. "


"i have repeatedly returned to the example of space to show how the trinity functions (to the best of my knowledge) "


Three viewpoints of You around an object doesn't make that object three. You don't be two before a mirror too. It is a very weak analogy. This is a trick of mind,In one dimensional world, If someone says there is nothing like height, It is true, Because existence of height has been meaningless. Some attributes like ecuador line and meridians have no real existence also. If You increase the number of dimensions you can produce infinite attributes. And We talk about static objects of this world with our limited viewpoints.


c) "you are unable to distinguish the hypostatic union from the doctrine of the trinity and this is where you make your error. "


Yes, I am unable to distiguish , ( Actually adopting the Christianity can attracts a muslim's soul ( evil commanding soul) No prayers, no fast, no charity, commit sin and make priest forgive you. Is it illogical not to accept ? ) Oh My Lord it is illogical.

D ) the members of the trinity all have the same abilities (that is, they all possess the same attributes). what one member can do, the others can do as well seeing as they subsist in the same essence and comprise the single divine being (by this i mean to say that seeing as one's attributes are determined by one's essence, it is impossible to subsist within the single essence and not possess the same attributes). yet it is true that each member does indeed take on particular roles in salvation history (such that it is the son who was crucified etc.) but the matter of roles does not detract from the ontological equality possessed by these as it regards their nature. my very first job was working at a fast-food restaurant and there were three of us in the kitchen making the food (what a coincidence). each person had a specific role that they were assigned to do and while we worked as such, we each were fully capable of doing the job of the other. while we did have specific roles, it was not because we lacked the ability to perform any of the other roles.

( another c ) it is true that each member of the trinity can function 'separately' from the other, yet given that there is only a single divine will, we must identify what exactly we mean by separate. each member of the trinity knows the others full well and there is a mutual indwelling between these (each exists within the other, hence why we cannot really speak of separate persons but rather distinct persons). given the single divine will, none can act in opposition to the others for they all comprise the single divine being who--while existent as 3 real persons--shares a single divine will between these.


i have repeatedly returned to the example of space to show how the trinity functions (to the best of my knowledge). that said, it must again be said that one can understand the trinity not to be illogical without necessarily believing in it. one understands through logic but belief is predicated on faith and it is this fact that i have tried to emphasize. i believe that i have shown that the trinity cannot be attacked in terms of logic and the only credible opposition to it is merely in regards to one's faith (which is perfectly alright). if logic is what is being discussed then the fact that a three in one existence is exemplified in the universe should be enough to put claims to its incoherence to rest yet the fact that this is not actually the case says more (to me) about one's faith than about one's understanding of logic.

Summary


All possess the same attributes ( with different roles ) and subsist in the same essence ( No preference ) and comprise the single divine being ( without leaving option ) and take on particular roles ( By using same will ) and can be crucified ( elevated modesty ) , have ontological equality and mutual indwelling (No superiority or inferiority complex, they are equal, no different features, same body, same functions ), can function 'separately' ( but we cannot really speak of distinct persons), there is only a single divine will ( which can be used separately with same atributes), trinity knows the others full well, none can act in opposition to the others (No choice, function separately but not separately in meaning, they have to follow and know each other without intention), there are roles, certain roles).


Nothing matters, being independent or dependent at the same time, Obeying to roles ( Actually They don't need roles, one of them can handle everything ), having no different choice due to inseparable nature of will, One of them can act separately but others watch him and join him without judging ( They are inseparable with separable functioning option).


And a complex sentence ( It is logical ,if You try to believe necessarily)


" by this i mean to say that seeing as one's attributes are determined by one's essence, it is impossible to subsist within the single essence and not possess the same attributes "


Result


Trinity not to be illogical without necessarily believing in it. Three equal individuality with same attributes in one essence with uniformity.




Finally Dear Sol Invictes, I read carefully as You see, I tried to comment in parenthesis. I think You say that If I really try to think three as one, or one as three, I can make it. It is logical. It is not possible to disprove it and that makes it a strong argument by supporting different Gospels. What are We talking about here is the nature of individuality of Most Merciful One.


May Allah forbid. There is no god but Allah.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Complementarity.

The complementarity principle states that some objects have multiple properties that appear to be contradictory. Sometimes it is possible to switch back and forth between different views of an object to observe these properties, but in principle, it is impossible to view both at the same time, despite their simultaneous coexistence in reality. For example, we can think of an electron as either a particle or a wave, depending on the situation. An object that's both a particle and a wave would seem to be impossible because, normally, such things are mutually exclusive. Nonetheless, an electron is truly both at once.

Using this as analogy, there is a relationship of COMPLEMENTARITY between the Uncreated "Word/Memra" of God the Father and a created human body and soul in the ONE human being, Jesus of Nazareth.

I know y'all are feelin' this...right? ;D

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

The three states of matter does not make one matter three. Very very weak analogy can be produced in this way.

hello chavundur, it would seem that you have misunderstood my point. i didn't argue that we had three matters but rather one matter with three distinctions. as such, you have yet to refute my argument. furthermore, i didn't argue that that the distinctions were attributes either, rather these distinctions are the possessors of the attributes.

Three viewpoints of You around an object doesn't make that object three. You don't be two before a mirror too. It is a very weak analogy. This is a trick of mind,In one dimensional world, If someone says there is nothing like height, It is true, Because existence of height has been meaningless. Some attributes like ecuador line and meridians have no real existence also. If You increase the number of dimensions you can produce infinite attributes. And We talk about static objects of this world with our limited viewpoints.

if you are arguing that we can speak of two dimensional things such as drawings on paper then even this would not hurt my point because i'm speaking of space as it is in itself. by necessity space is existent as length, width, and height. the matter of a drawing on paper doesn't hurt my point at all for that very sheet of paper exists in a 3 dimensional realm as well.

Yes, I am unable to distiguish , ( Actually adopting the Christianity can attracts a muslim's soul ( evil commanding soul) No prayers, no fast, no charity, commit sin and make priest forgive you. Is it illogical not to accept ? ) Oh My Lord it is illogical.

i'm having trouble understanding this.

as for the rest of your post, i simply don't know what to say. it would seem that the language barrier is making us unable to communicate properly.

 

[Chavundur]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

as for the rest of your post, i simply don't know what to say. it would seem that the language barrier is making us unable to communicate properly.

Hi Sol Invictus
I think that it is not the language barrier but sincerity barrier, You can see your own sentences in that message. I am not a competent user of English , but I can see what is understandable or what is not understandable. I think some experienced members of this forum would tell us which barrier makes that message unable to understand.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Hi Sol Invictus
I think that it is not the language barrier but sincerity barrier, You can see your own sentences in that message. I am not a competent user of English , but I can see what is understandable or what is not understandable. I think some experienced members of this forum would tell us which barrier makes that message unable to understand.

oh dear, it would seem that i'm being called insincere. well there's nothing i can do about it save to say that if you were to browse through this thread, you would note that i have consistently responded to every objection. the only problem i have with your post is that it is difficult to make out what you're saying. anyway, if your post really is as good of a rebuttal as you seem to imply, then i certainly hope that your fellow muslims will be able to pick up on this and mount an attack on my argument will make me unable to raise the issue of the language barrier (seeing as it is your belief that i have only brought this up due to my insincerity).

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

why cant christians just say theres one God - instead we have pages and pages of a confusing expanation of the trinity and "hypostatic union"

Jesus pbuh is not all knowing - he doesnt know when the hour is - God knows that hour is - God is clearly all knowing - Jesus pbuh isnt God. - Simple.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

why cant christians just say theres one God - instead we have pages and pages of a confusing expanation of the trinity and "hypostatic union"

greetings zafran, christians do in fact say that there is only one god. the problem here is that you assume one to mean unitarian and you have yet to prove this point. in the pages and pages contained within this thread the arguments all end with a logical vindication of the trinity. before you make these claims please get to disproving the points presented herein by christians because as is, they remain unrefuted and what most muslims here have done is to simply state their opinion yet taking extreme care not to actually try to prove this nor actually try to pick apart the arguments that have been presented. instead of wondering why there are so many pages which talk about the trinity, one should wonder why there has yet to be a refutation of this concept if it is indeed logically incoherent. now, seeing as i want to give the muslim position every opportunity to prove their belief as to the incoherence of the trinity, would you care to look at my posts #15 and #56 and actually begin to engage the argument?

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

greetings zafran, christians do in fact say that there is only one god. the problem here is that you assume one to mean unitarian and you have yet to prove this point. in the pages and pages contained within this thread the arguments all end with a logical vindication of the trinity. before you make these claims please get to disproving the points presented herein by christians because as is, they remain unrefuted and what most muslims here have done is to simply state their opinion yet taking extreme care not to actually try to prove this nor actually try to pick apart the arguments that have been presented. instead of wondering why there are so many pages which talk about the trinity, one should wonder why there has yet to be a refutation of this concept if it is indeed logically incoherent. now, seeing as i want to give the muslim position every opportunity to prove their belief as to the incoherence of the trinity, would you care to look at my posts #15 and #56 and actually begin to engage the argument?

Heres my problem

You say Jesus pbuh is God
The holy spirit is God
The Father is God

The length is not space
The width is not space
The height is not space

All 3 togather make space - like 3 parts

which is not the trinity.

doesnt work.

 

[siam]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Now, back to some of Siam's stuff...

Siam:
The Shema requires Jews to Worship the ONE God alone. Therefore, they reject the concept of the trinity as against the Shema. Muslims agree with this rejection----and here is why.......
God is ONE and there is none co-equal or like him (disregard gender). God is ONE and is thereofore not divisible. ALL worship must be to God alone---none can share in it. Therefore, irrespective of the "created/uncreated" aspect ---Worship is to God alone.

Christians believe that there is ONE GOD (God the Father) who is UNDERIVATIVE in any way. It is this God whom Jesus worshipped. And it is THIS God the Father that Paul worshipped VIA Jesus! You've seen the Creeds so you know that what I'm talking about is true. Even if the practical outworkings of that have been sketchy (ala Mariolatry and other nonsense), it's STILL the case that Christianity at it's heart worships ONE GOD, God the Father, who is inseparable from his creative "Word" and his "Breath/Spirit."

I will say this one more time: Christianity per se does NOT abridge the Jewish Shema...not when all revelent Jewish beliefs are placed into context, particularly about the uncreated nature of the "Word/Memra" of God and the "Breath" of God.
---ok---I will try to give it more thought.......
************************

Siam:
Thus, irrespective of "created/uncreated" aspect of the Quran, Muslims do not equate the Quran with God, we do not worship the Quran as God, or as "co-equal" or semi-divine to God. Nor as God incarnate or any other form/shape of God. Worship is dedicated to the ONE God alone.

So, if God tells others to prostrate themselves before an Adamic (human) figure, God is WRONG to do so, right?
----If you are referring to the story of (Prophet)Adam(pbuh) in the Quran---that God asked "others" to worship (Prophet) Adam (pbuh) as God, then you are mistaken.

************************

Siam:
Now let us assume for the moment that there is an aspect of Jesus Christ(pbuh) that is "uncreated". If Christians were to adhere to the Shema---such an aspect would be a mere technicality as in practice ALL worship would be due to the ONE God alone---not to an "incarnation". Therefore---the "trinity" would serve no practical purpose....other than explaining a technicality of theology.

Ah, interesting. So you want to say the following:

Even IF it's the case that an aspect of Jesus is uncreated, it's still the case that ONLY God the Father should be worship or "bowed to" in any sense. So, insofar as the Trinity is related to an aspect of Jesus being uncreated, then the Trinity--even if true--is completely IRRELEVANT to whether or not Jesus should be worshipped along with God the Father.

Honestly, this line of thinking would make a lot of sense...if God himself hadn't TOLD us (Christians believe) to "prostrate before the New Adam, Jesus the Messiah." If God HAS exalted Jesus like that, then are we gonna be like Iblis on that?
---Again....you have misunderstood the story...can discuss it if you want, but as a seperate topic. (refer to Surah 2 verses 30-39, then read surah 7 verses 11-17---it is an interesting topic)

*********************

Siam:
The idea that an Omnicient, Omnipotent God "needs" to incarnate in order to understand his creation is a ridiculous notion. God intimately knows and loves his creation without any "need" for an incarnation---whether that creation is a planet, a human, or an animal. God is here---right now---with his creation. He is eternally present.

Don't misunderstand me. Of course God is omnsicient. At the same time, would you say that Allah has the subjective (1st person) experience of being a sweating, crying, breathing human being? No you wouldn't. Why? Because God is TRANSCENDENT of all of that, right? He knows human experience OBJECTIVELY, but not SUBJECTIVELY.
---This is the problem with western reductionist type of thinking---it is imbalanced so you end up with misunderstandings or partial understanding. God does not "think"/know subjectively/objectively!!!! Omnicient means God knows everything in all its variety---WHOLISTICALLY. That is precisely why God does not "need" to incarnate himself into a tree to feel/know how a tree funtions or what a tree is!!!!

We Christians say that God, through the Incarnation, knows human experience objectively AND subjectively.

Which is why your concept of God is limiting and incomplete

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Don't misunderstand me. Of course God is omnsicient. At the same time, would you say that Allah has the subjective (1st person) experience of being a sweating, crying, breathing human being? No you wouldn't. Why? Because God is TRANSCENDENT of all of that, right? He knows human experience OBJECTIVELY, but not SUBJECTIVELY.

---This is the problem with western reductionist type of thinking---it is imbalanced so you end up with misunderstandings or partial understanding. God does not "think"/know subjectively/objectively!!!! Omnicient means God knows everything in all its variety---WHOLISTICALLY. That is precisely why God does not "need" to incarnate himself into a tree to feel/know how a tree funtions or what a tree is!!!!

greetings siam, it would seem that you have misunderstood yielded. what his claim deals with is experiential knowledge. are you really going to say that god in himself has experiential knowledge of what it is like to cry, suffer etc.? if so, does he also have experiential knowledge of what it is like to sin? quite clearly you would say no and a such yielded is proven correct. there are different types of knowledge and god does not necessarily have experiential knowledge of everything for that would mean that he himself knows the experience of telling a lie etc. and both you and i would thoroughly disagree with this. so no, we are not in fact limiting god here. once again, if god has never told a lie then he possesses no experiential knowledge of the experience of telling a lie (sure, he may know all the characteristics of what it is like to tell a lie but he does not possess the knowledge of the experience of telling a lie). this is what yielded is getting at and in this respect he is completely correct.

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

greetings siam, it would seem that you have misunderstood yielded. what his claim deals with is experiential knowledge. are you really going to say that god in himself has experiential knowledge of what it is like to cry, suffer etc.? if so, does he also have experiential knowledge of what it is like to sin? quite clearly you would say no and a such yielded is proven correct. there are different types of knowledge and god does not necessarily have experiential knowledge of everything for that would mean that he himself knows the experience of telling a lie etc. and both you and i would thoroughly disagree with this. so no, we are not in fact limiting god here. once again, if god has never told a lie then he possesses no experiential knowledge of the experience of telling a lie (sure, he may know all the characteristics of what it is like to tell a lie but he does not possess the knowledge of the experience of telling a lie). this is what yielded is getting at and in this respect he is completely correct.

So God isnt all knowing in christainty??? wow

By the way God doesnt need experimental knowldege as God knows everything already. Your anthromorphing God thats a big problem and your going to run into a mess as God isnt like man.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Heres my problem

You say Jesus pbuh is God
The holy spirit is God
The Father is God

The length is not space
The width is not space
The height is not space

All 3 togather make space - like 3 parts

which is not the trinity.

doesnt work.

greetings zafran. thanks for the response but once again you have done nothing to show why your counter-intuitive example is at all true. if length is not space then what exactly is it? your claim that length, width, height are not space is thoroughly wrong. it is indeed true that length, width, and height make up the being of space and in this respect they can be called 'parts' of space (though you will note that the appropriate term is actually "distinctions/dimensions within space") but they each in themselves are the one space. what is true of space is true of length, width, and height. space is measured in terms of cm, kilometres etc. and length width and height are measured in these very same terms. cm, m, mm, etc. are a measurement of space. length, width and height are measured in cm, m, mm etc. now given that mm, cm, and m are measurements of space and that we use these to measure length, width and height, how can you then say that they are not space. length can be measured on its own, width can be measured on its own and height can be measured on its own and yet this does not lead to the claim that insofar as these are measured on their own they are not space (if your claim that they are only parts of space were true then we could not say that we are measuring space when we are measuring only one of these but of course this is absurd). given all the above, it's more than obvious that length, width, and height are the one space. if your claim were at all true then this would be like claiming that solid, liquid, and gas are not matter but only 'part' of matter or that the past, present, and future are not time but only parts of time. see how absurd such an objection is? that said, given all of the above, we must once again conclude that they are in fact space and as such your objection has been shown to be inaccurate.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

So God isnt all knowing in christainty??? wow

greetings safran, the claim isn't that god isn't all knowing but rather that he does not possess the experience of certain things. if god does not lie then he does not possess teh experience of lying. of course he knows what it is like to lie but he does not possess the experience of lying. experience is a type of knowledge and insomuch as we are talking about experiential knowledge then no, god does not possess certain experiences. you seem to not understand what experiential knowledge actually is. i'd be more surprised if you said that god possesses the experience of lying which would mean that god has sinned and that is wrong. god cannot sin hence why he cannot possess experiential knowledge of sin. before jumping to the conclusion you do above, it is advisable to make sure that you understand the concept that is being discussed.

By the way God doesnt need experimental knowldege as God knows everything already. Your anthromorphing God thats a big problem and your going to run into a mess as God isnt like man.

my claim wasn't that god needs experiential knowledge but rather that he does not have experiential knowledge of some things. you took issue with this and now here you are agreeing with me by effectively claiming that he doesn't have experiential knowledge of certain things. so therefore i must ask, what is your position, do you believe that god has experiential knowledge of all things or not? remember, inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

greetings zafran. thanks for the response but once again you have done nothing to show why your counter-intuitive example is at all true. if length is not space then what exactly is it? your claim that length, width, height are not space is thoroughly wrong. it is indeed true that length, width, and height make up the being of space and in this respect they can be called 'parts' of space (though you will note that the appropriate term is actually "distinctions/dimensions within space") but they each in themselves are the one space. what is true of space is true of length, width, and height. space is measured in terms of cm, kilometres etc. and length width and height are measured in these very same terms. cm, m, mm, etc. are a measurement of space. length, width and height are measured in cm, m, mm etc. now given that mm, cm, and m are measurements of space and that we use these to measure length, width and height, how can you then say that they are not space. length can be measured on its own, width can be measured on its own and height can be measured on its own and yet this does not lead to the claim that insofar as these are measured on their own they are not space (if your claim that they are only parts of space were true then we could not say that we are measuring space when we are measuring only one of these but of course this is absurd). given all the above, it's more than obvious that length, width, and height are the one space. if your claim were at all true then this would be like claiming that solid, liquid, and gas are not matter but only 'part' of matter or that the past, present, and future are not time but only parts of time. see how absurd such an objection is? that said, given all of the above, we must once again conclude that they are in fact space and as such your objection has been shown to be inaccurate.

This is absurd

If I gave you a length of an object would you give me an an answer by saying that I have given you the space of the object?

Length is length its not space as space needs length, Height and width to be space.

Width is width and not space as space needs all 3 combined

so is height - the measurement of anyone of these things alone is not space - space is all 3 combined - which the trinity is not - it doesnt work.

Solid is solid
Liquid is Liquid
Gas is Gas

My chair is matter, my bed is matter the atom is matter - everything physical is matter - the trinty doesnt work there as well (more of a pantheist belief here) - whats next the apple example???

Your like the million christian to give these examples and they dont work - we on this forum know this you can search these forums to find these false examples of the trinty.

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

greetings safran, the claim isn't that god isn't all knowing but rather that he does not possess the experience of certain things. if god does not lie then he does not possess teh experience of lying. of course he knows what it is like to lie but he does not possess the experience of lying. experience is a type of knowledge and insomuch as we are talking about experiential knowledge then no, god does not possess certain experiences. you seem to not understand what experiential knowledge actually is. i'd be more surprised if you said that god possesses the experience of lying which would mean that god has sinned and that is wrong. god cannot sin hence why he cannot possess experiential knowledge of sin. before jumping to the conclusion you do above, it is advisable to make sure that you understand the concept that is being discussed.



my claim wasn't that god needs experiential knowledge but rather that he does not have experiential knowledge of some things. you took issue with this and now here you are agreeing with me by effectively claiming that he doesn't have experiential knowledge of certain things. so therefore i must ask, what is your position, do you believe that god has experiential knowledge of all things or not? remember, inconsistency is the sign of a failed argument.

God is not like man - Humans need experimental knowledge - God already knows everything why would God use an experiment to know something he already knows - your camparing God to human knowledge - You have to understand that man has limited knowledge he needs experiences - God isnt human as God already knows what there is to know.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

This is absurd

If I gave you a length of soemthing would you give me an an asnwer by saying that I have given you space?

sorry but what does this mean to get at? if you did indeed give me the length of something then i would say that you have given me the measurement of space (which in this case is the measurement of that length). so no, you haven't shown that length is not space.

Length is length its not space as space needs length, Heigth and width to be space

Width is width and not space as space needs all 3 combined

so is height which - the measurement of anyone of these things alone is not space - space is all 3 combined

the above is completely wrong. the fact that in the above you can give me the measurement of only length shows that this point of yours is incorrect. if these were not individually space then we couldn't measure them yet the fact that we can measure them shows that they are space.

Solid is solid
Liquid is Liquid
Gas is Gas

My chair is matter, my bed is matter the atom is matter - everything physical is matter - the trinty doesnt work there as well (more of a pantheist belief here) - whats next the apple example???

you are only displaying your failure to grasp the argument. here is the argument as it relates to matter: just as the one matter exists as solid, liquid, and gas, in the same way does the one god exist as the persons of the father, the son, and the holys pirit. just as solid is not liquid, liquid is not gas, and gas is not either of these, in the same way is the father not the son, the son not the holy spirit, and teh holy spirit is not either of these. just as although the three distinctions are not identical with each other yet we only have one matter and not three matterS, in the same way are the persons of the holy trinity the one god instead of three godS. your example of what is constituted of matter is irrelevant and besides the point for whatever you point to, you can only refer to three distinctions (solid,liquid, gas) within the one matter and as such you still prove my point.

Your like the million christian do give these examples and they dont work - we on this forum know this you can search these forums to find these false examples of the trinty.

the problem with your claim is the fact that they do work. i am consistent and do not have to begin to deny the reality that length is space etc. if length were not space then it could not be measured by that which space is measured by. if space is measured in cm, m, mm etc. and length by itself is not space then by itself it could not be measured in terms of mm, cm, m etc. yet the fact of the matter is that you can in fact measure length by itself in terms of mm, cm, m etc. and as such your objection is proven false.