truthseeker63's Corner in Comparative religion

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Follow closely, Naidamar. I'm going to try to do this step by step...ok? Following the Creed I just posted...

1) Is Jesus of Nazareth the ONE GOD spoken of clearly in the of the Jewish Shema and the N-C Creed?
NO. Only God the Father is the ONE GOD of the Shema. God the Father is Jesus' God.

2) Is Jesus of Nazareth divine insofar as he is the embodiment of the Son/Word of the ONE GOD?
YES. The Son/Word of God comes FROM God the Father, is always WITH God the Father even sans Creation, meaning that the Son/Word is of the same uncreated nature AS God the Father. Hence, the language of the N-C Creed.

Siam. Please help me explain this to our brother, dude. It seems that YOU understood at least the gist of the "necessarily truine" activity of God the Father in self-relationship that I've been describing.

-----------------------

I really, really don't want to get off track with the main point of this thread: How is it that Christians can think that Jesus can be "Immortal" and "Mortal" at the same time? I have been trying to give a THEOLOGICAL MODEL (using the principle of complementarity between the uncreated "Word/Memra" of God and a created human soul/body) that can intelligibly, consistently articulate that belief.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

And where oh where is Woodrow? Man...

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Follow closely, Naidamar. I'm going to try to do this step by step...ok? Following the Creed I just posted... 1) Is Jesus of Nazareth the ONE GOD spoken of clearly in the of the Jewish Shema and the N-C Creed? NO. Only God the Father is the ONE GOD of the Shema. God the Father is Jesus' God. 2) Is Jesus of Nazareth divine insofar as he is the embodiment of the Son/Word of the ONE GOD? YES. The Son/Word of God comes FROM God the Father, is always WITH God the Father even sans Creation, meaning that the Son/Word is of the same uncreated nature AS God the Father. Hence, the language of the N-C Creed.

Sorry, still too confusing.
According to our resident pastor, Grace Seeker (who I'm sure follow the nicene creed and surely is an authority in christianity), jesus is God.
But in your answer: 1) jesus is not god, 2) jesus is god

So, you lost me there. You confuse me, YO.
It's like you are saying "the sun exist, and the sun does not exist", "barack obama is alive, and barack obama is dead", "god is eternal, and god is not eternal" at the same time.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

AHA! I think I've got it. Something to get some of my Muslim peeps off the hook, so to speak.

Check it out, yo. You may think there's no "sufficient reason" you can think of for God to do such a thing. You may not think that the hypostatic union of Jesus is actuality, per your own previous beliefs about whatever. That's all fine, well, and good. I will take things a step back. Is my conception of the hypostatic union intelligible PURELY AS AN IDEA, not necessarily ACTUALITY. In other words, saying that the idea is INTELLIGBLE doesn't mean that it's what ACTUALLY IS the case!

So any Muslim brother or sister does NOT have to say that the hypostatic union EXISTS in order to say that the idea itself communicates theological beliefs intelligibly. So a Muslim can talk about the intelligibility of the idea without fearing commiting some kind of sin against Islam or something. One can say this:

"As a Muslim, I don't believe this is the case for my own reasons--whatever those may be---but I do believe that a rational, informed person can believe this view to be intelligible purely as an idea within a certain theological motif."

Hopefully THAT will remove an obstacle. Hopefully. hew

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Naidamar:
According to our resident pastor, Grace Seeker (who I'm sure follow the nicene creed and surely is an authority in christianity), jesus is God.
But in your answer: 1) jesus is not god, 2) jesus is god.

Ask Grace Seeker over here, Naidamar (if he ain't here already). I think I know enough about his general belief structure to say this...

1) GraceSeeker WILL NOT say that Jesus is the One God spoken of either in the Shema OR in the N-C Creed.

2) GraceSeeker WILL NOT say that Jesus' humanity is, in and of itself, divine or uncreated.

3) GraceSeeker WILL say that Jesus is "very God from very God" (ala the N-C Creed), meaning that Jesus' divinity is UTTERLY GROUNDED in the ONE GOD (God the Father) and his relationship to his One God as uncreated, begotten Son/Word of God.

GraceSeeker! Holla back, bro. Let's see if I'm right...

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

AHA! I think I've got it. Something to get some of my Muslim peeps off the hook, so to speak. Check it out, yo. You may think there's no "sufficient reason" you can think of for God to do such a thing. You may not think that the hypostatic union of Jesus is actuality, per your own previous beliefs about whatever. That's all fine, well, and good. I will take things a step back. Is my conception of the hypostatic union intelligible PURELY AS AN IDEA, not necessarily ACTUALITY. In other words, saying that the idea is INTELLIGBLE doesn't mean that it's what ACTUALLY IS the case! So any Muslim brother or sister does NOT have to say that the hypostatic union EXISTS in order to say that the idea itself if intelligible. So a Muslim can talk about the intelligibility of the idea without fearing commiting some kind of sin against Islam or something. One can say this: "I don't believe this is the case for my own reasons--whatever those may be---but I do believe that a rational, informed person can believe this view to be intelligible purely as an idea." Hopefully THAT will remove an obstacle. Hopefully.

Well, this is even more confusing.
Please tell me in plain words, YO.
You may want to consider me as an illiterate farmer from a remote area in Indonesia, so convoluted words and conflicting concepts are certainly something that I would definitely fail to grasp.

So again, is jesus god or not?

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

So how many gods are there, YO?

You keep saying the one god as if there's a two god and a three god.

what's the difference between the one god and god?

is the one god the same or different than god?

and whats the difference between very god with plain god?

all this god classifications really confuse me further, YO.

Stop confusing me, YO.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Naidamar:
Well, this is even more confusing.

All that was trying to do was say that a Muslim could agree with the philosophical and theological viability of my view of the hypostatic union of Christ without 1) saying that it is actually true or 2) negating one's previously held Islamic faith. I'm just trying to make it EASIER for my questions to be answered without threat of "betraying" Islam in some kind of way.

***********************************************

Naidamar:
So how many gods are there, YO?
You keep saying the one god as if there's a two god and a three god.
what's the difference between the one god and god?
is the one god the same or different than god?
and whats the difference between very god with plain god?
Stop confusing me, YO.
all this god classifications really confuse me further, YO.

Dude, I guess I'm just not smart enough to help you, bro. That's my bad.

I will say this. I don't see how people can dismissively criticize trinitarian thinking when they can't even take the time to get the necessary background to understand WHY the whole thing came up in the first place. (Primarily the relationships between YHWH, the Word/Memra of YHWH, and the Spirit/Breath of YHWH). It would be like a Christian disputing the uncreated nature of the Quran or the heavenly archetypal nature of the "Mother of the Book" WITHOUT knowing anything about any of the discussions about how such a doctrine came to be.

Oh, well. Maybe Grace Seeker can do a better job.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

What difference would that make?!...because ultimately the point in your claim is that He became human…"changing the Divine nature into a human one" is just the same as taking on a 2nd nature" by the Divine.

umm, no it is not. this is precisely why i had asked you to read my first post in which i give examples for what i am saying. if you take on a second nature then by definition you have not changed the first one. no change happened to the divine nature, he merely took on a second one.

"that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him." (john 5:23)

Alright…but did he say "worship me" as you "worship God" ??....i'm not familiar with the whole of the Bible….but I don't think he might have said such a thing. And the fact that some of the verses (NOT "all") of the Bible are of questionable authenticity.

Moreover, the Quran has a similar verse…
"He who obeys the Messenger has obeyed Allah.." (an-Nisaa 4:80)

Now, do we say that the Prophet (pbuh) was claiming worship?!....of course NOT!
Such an interpretation would be blasphemy!
Both the verses simply ask us to follow the command of the Messengers who were Divinely guided by God Almighty.

the verse from the bible is not at all the same as the one in the qur'an. obeying god's prophet is the same as obeying god. on this we are in agreement. yet honouring god's prophet in the exact same way that one honour's god is completely different. we honour god by worshiping rightly as god! are you telling me that it would be perfectly alright for the islamic prophet to ask to be given the very same honour as god? if you prostrate to allah, will you then prostrate to muhammad? if you pray to allah, will you then pray to muhammad? is the average american citizen honoured in the exact same way that the president of america is honoured? clearly your argument does not work. it seeks to equivocate two different things and it doesn't succeed. from this point alone we can see that christ claimed to divinity and the very worship of god. this is enough to establish him as god.

You didn't get my point here; basically what I meant was that on asking such an "important" question directly by Jesus, Peter only says "Messiah of God" PERIOD…doesn't he find it necessary to continue saying like son of God, God etc? I'm curious!

i see nothing wrong with the above but if you would like for someone to call christ the son of god then there is no better individual than the father himself:

As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and lighting on him. 17And a voice from heaven said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.” ---Matthew 3:16-17 NIV

After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. 2There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. 3Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah, talking with Jesus.

4Peter said to Jesus, “Lord, it is good for us to be here. If you wish, I will put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.”

5While he was still speaking, a bright cloud enveloped them, and a voice from the cloud said, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased. Listen to him!”

6When the disciples heard this, they fell facedown to the ground, terrified. 7But Jesus came and touched them. “Get up,” he said. “Don’t be afraid.” 8When they looked up, they saw no one except Jesus.

9As they were coming down the mountain, Jesus instructed them, “Don’t tell anyone what you have seen, until the Son of Man has been raised from the dead.”--- Matthew 17:1-9 NIV

so we have in the above two separate occasions were god himself speaks from heaven to make known to those present that christ is his son. as such, your point has just been refuted.

Why in the world would God impose His Commands (meant for his creation) on Himself?? And obey them inspite of possessing a Will to…….GOD this is insane!!

because in being found a man, he submitted himself as a man to the will of the father. he partook in the very laws that he had decreed for jews because it was through perfect obedience that he would save the human race. as a man, he chose to follow the law given to men. i noticed that you called this insane. the bible has a response to that:

18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

“I will destroy the wisdom of the wise;
the intelligence of the intelligent I will frustrate.”

20 Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not know him, God was pleased through the foolishness of what was preached to save those who believe. 22 Jews demand signs and Greeks look for wisdom, 23 but we preach Christ crucified: a stumbling block to Jews and foolishness to Gentiles, 24 but to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 For the foolishness of God is wiser than human wisdom, and the weakness of God is stronger than human strength. [...] 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. --- 1 Corinthians 1:18-20; 27-30 NIV

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

All that was trying to do was say that a Muslim could agree with the philosophical and theological viability of my view of the hypostatic union of Christ without 1) saying that it is actually true or 2) negating one's previously held Islamic faith. I'm just trying to make it EASIER for my questions to be answered without threat of "betraying" Islam in some kind of way.

I've been a muslim since I was born, and I do not undertand what you said about jesus is god and jesus is not god.

Please explain YO, is jesus god or is jesus not god?

Dude, I guess I'm just not smart enough to help you, bro. That's my bad. I will say this. I don't see how people can dismissively criticize trinitarian thinking when they can't even take the time to get the necessary background to understand WHY the whole thing came up in the first place. (Primarily the relationships between YHWH, the Word/Memra of YHWH, and the Spirit/Breath of YHWH). It would be like a Christian disputing the uncreated nature of the Quran or the heavenly archetypal nature of the "Mother of the Book" WITHOUT knowing anything about any of the discussions about how such a doctrine came to be. Oh, well. Maybe Grace Seeker can do a better job.

you said "the one god" and then you said "very god", and then now you added "YHWH", "spirit of God", "memra", "shema", "spirit of YHWH"?

I just want you to explain who are these gods? how many are there?
What's the difference between "god", "YHWH", "the one god", "the essence of god", "the very god from the very god"? Are they different from each other? so who we should worship, YO?
Stop confusing me, YO!

I don't understand.
Am I too simple minded to understand trinity?
YO, is God that really that unfair and unjust that only a select people can understand the concept of God?

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Is my conception of the hypostatic union intelligible PURELY AS AN IDEA, not necessarily ACTUALITY. In other words, saying that the idea is INTELLIGBLE doesn't mean that it's what ACTUALLY IS the case!

i've noticed that this is somewhat of a problem within this thread. people seem to assume that if they admit the logical coherence of an idea, they would somehow have to believe it.

1) GraceSeeker WILL NOT say that Jesus is the One God spoken of either in the Shema OR in the N-C Creed.

i'm pretty sure that grace seeker would disagree with you yielded (my oh my, grace seeker sure is popular when christian matters are suddenly to be discussed in terms that gene would agree with. lol.). while i can certainly understand your idea of the trinity and even not find anything wrong with it per se, your identification of the father being the sole person spoken of in the shema is quite peculiar. at this point i am reminded of the following passage in exodus:

Moses and Aaron, Nadab and Abihu, and the seventy elders of Israel went up 10 and saw the God of Israel. Under his feet was something like a pavement made of sapphire, clear as the sky itself. 11 But God did not raise his hand against these leaders of the Israelites; they saw God, and they ate and drank. --- Exodus 24:9-10 NIV

but then we have the following passage:

But,” he said, “you cannot see my face, for no one may see me and live.” 21 Then the LORD said, “There is a place near me where you may stand on a rock. 22 When my glory passes by, I will put you in a cleft in the rock and cover you with my hand until I have passed by. 23 Then I will remove my hand and you will see my back; but my face must not be seen.” --- Exodus 33:20-23 NIV

now what will you make of the above yielded. if the person in the shema is merely the father then who did the israelites see? this individual whose face was seen is called the god of israel and the shema expressely claims to have to do with the god of israel. furthermore, another inidvidual who is identified as the god of israel says that his face cannot be seen and another individual who also is identified as the sole god of israel has shown his face and the text even says that god did not strike these individuals down for having seen him (so this shows that the passage is aware of the decree that none can see god and live). clearly both persons are the god of israel (the one who's face cannot be seen and the one who showed his face to moses, aaron and the seventy) and as such while your trinity is perfectly alright, i find it a bit odd that you identify only the father as being involved in the shema.

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

salaam

the christians themselves cant agree with the trinty as we can see here??? which christain has the right understanding of the trinity?? Do you see why its confusing. One christians says one thing the other has a different idea.

peace

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

the christians themselves cant agree with the trinty as we can see here??? which christain has the right understanding of the trinity?? Do you see why its confusing. One christians says one thing the other has a different idea.

clearly you have failed to read my post and cling to things which are only present in your imagination. i have repeatedly said that i found nothing wrong with yielded's conception of the trinity. what i did find strange is his basis for claiming that the shema only relates to the father. you would do well to start reading people's posts more carefully in hopes of saving yourself from further such embarrassment.

 

[YieldedOne]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Naidamar:
you said "the one god" and then you said "very god", and then now you added "YHWH", "spirit of God", "memra", "shema", "spirit of YHWH"? I just want you to explain who are these gods? how many are there? What's the difference between "god", "YHWH", "the one god", "the essence of god", "the very god from the very god"? Are they different from each other? so who we should worship, YO? Stop confusing me, YO!
I don't understand.
Am I too simple minded to understand trinity?
YO, is God that really that unfair and unjust that only a select people can understand the concept of God?

Ok. This is probably the simplest way I can begin to do this...

By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth.
Psalm 33:6

In this one passage, you have 3 things:

YHWH (the LORD)
the creative "word" of YHWH
the creative "breath" of YHWH.

These are all the makings of what will come to be an idea of triunity. I'm only using this one passage from the Hebrew Scriptures, but there are many more than talks about YHWH, His Word, and His Spirit.

Per the Shema, YHWH is the ONE GOD of the "Children of Israel"...and YHWH is NEVER, EVER, EVER without his "word" and his "breath", especially when working with Creation. It would be unfathomable for any prophet in Israel to NOT know about YHWH, His Word, and His (prophetic) Spirit; in fact, all of the major prophets of the Hebrew Scriptures talk about YHWH's word and Spirit in some form or fashion.

Now, in the Gospels, the Jewish Christian authors specifically associate this "Word/Memra" of YHWH to Jesus (John 1:1-18) and says that the Spirit/Breath of YHWH is upon and within Jesus as Messiah (Luke 4:16-21)

So, then for Jewish Christians and apostles, like Paul, Peter, and James, you have...

YHWH: Jesus' God

Word of YHWH: Jesus as "Word/Memra becoming flesh"

Spirit/Breath of YHWH: YHWH's prophetic, creative Breath upon and within Jesus as Messiah.


THIS is the sine qua non foundation for Christians seeing TRIUNITY in the Uncreated. Any Christians out there wanna verify this for me?

 

[Zafran]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

clearly you have failed to read my post and cling to things which are only present in your imagination. i have repeatedly said that i found nothing wrong with yielded's conception of the trinity. what i did find strange is his basis for claiming that the shema only relates to the father. you would do well to start reading people's posts more carefully in hopes of saving yourself from further such embarrassment.

It maybe a good idea to read your fellow christians post becasue its not the same understanding - You say that the God of Isreal has always been the trinty including christ and thats how its in the shema.

whilst Yeiledone has said many times that Jesus is NOT the God talked in the shema - clear cut contradiction.

Your both not consistent

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

so we have in the above two separate occasions were god himself speaks from heaven to make known to those present that christ is his son. as such, your point has just been refuted.

Let's see who else, according to bible, God claims as his sons:

Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.

Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn

Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

"He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son." (II Samuel 7:13-14),

and "Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"(Luke3: 38).

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

THIS is the sine qua non foundation for Christians seeing TRIUNITY in the Uncreated. Any Christians out there wanna verify this for me?

amen. i could not have said it better myself. though i must say that your language is very jewish. not that this is a bad thing but the individuals you're conversing with do not possess the appropriate basis for understanding the trinity is jewish thematic ideas. not to be derisive but there is little study of what the old testament actually says of god (hence why i have never met a muslim who is shocked by jesus calling himself the good shepherd) and as such it is hard for your points to make sense because you guys are somewhat speaking "different languages".

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

Ok. This is probably the simplest way I can begin to do this... By the word of the LORD were the heavens made, their starry host by the breath of his mouth. Psalm 33:6 In this one passage, you have 3 things: YHWH (the LORD) the creative "word" of YHWH the creative "breath" of YHWH.

Stop confusing me further, YO.

Are you saying that christians believe jesus is not god, but part of god?
and then part of god worship god?
so god cannot function without these two parts of god?
is it like me and my hands and feet, jesus as my hand and holy spirit as my feet, and they both worship me?
That's as far as i can stretch my feeble mind to understand christian concept of trinity.

 

[Sol Invictus]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

It maybe a good idea to read your fellow christians post becasue its not the same understanding - You say that the God of Isreal has always been the trinty including christ and thats how its in the shema.

whilst Yeiledone has said many times that Jesus is NOT the God talked in the shema - clear cut contradiction.

Your both not consistent

once again it is only you that has misunderstood things. yielded has specifically said that christ has always been god and with god. what he has however said concerning the shema is that it has in mind only the father. this isn't all that different to when christians say the father is god. they have in mind only the first person of the trinity and not the other two yet this does not then mean that neither of these are the one god as well. the trouble i have with yielded is on what basis he says that the shema is to be understood in the same sense as "the father is god" and not whether he is saying that jesus is not god. the only one's who keep willfully misunderstanding him are both you and naidamar.

Exodus 4:22 "Thus saith Jehovah, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.

Jeremiah 31:9 "I am a father to Israel, and Ephraim is my firstborn

Psalm 2:7 "....Jehovah had said onto me (David), thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee."

"He [Solomon] shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever. I will be his father and he shall be my son." (II Samuel 7:13-14),

and "Seth, which was the son of Adam, which was the son of God"(Luke3: 38).

psalm 2:7 is a prophetic psalm which christians consider to speak of christ. your points don't actually prove what you're saying. can you find us anywhere where an individual other than christ is called god's only-begotten son? christians consider themselves children of god yet this is not in the same sense as christ being the son of god. if you can find a reference to another individual being the only-begotten son then you'll have a point. the fact that you bring up all these other individuals who are called sons of god to somehow refute the christian position only shows how little you understand in the first place. anyway i'll be waiting naidamar.

 

[Ramadhan]

Re: Christians think that Jesus can be Immortal and Mortal at the sametime they say w

clearly you have failed to read my post and cling to things which are only present in your imagination. i have repeatedly said that i found nothing wrong with yielded's conception of the trinity. what i did find strange is his basis for claiming that the shema only relates to the father. you would do well to start reading people's posts more carefully in hopes of saving yourself from further such embarrassment.

so one christian believes jesus was god that was worshipped by all prophets, and another christian believes that jesus is not the god that the prophets worshipped.
That's what everyone's understanding here.

Will the real christian stand up?

As Zafran said, how many different concepts of God(s) are there in christianity?