undisputed miracles of the Holy Quraan

[tarek samy]

i see all what you are posting is skeptical philosophy actually i am not discussing philosophy in this thread .some of the peopel on this thread have asked for more evidence we provided them with the scientists names and the links of their views .but the philosophical arguement you are up to is something i dont care about .simply we provide facts that we consider miracle . you are not ready to believe it so it is up to you . i will not be dragged to philosophical discussion of the xy type

 

[BlackMamba]

So...you're basically saying that the Quran is useless, and that it's ok to piggy-back on good science, claiming prior knowledge of a given discovery whenever it's made?

In that case, here's my holy book : "X works one this because of Y".

Whenever a new discovery is made I'll point to this text and proudly yell "SEE, I TOLD YOU SO!", as I (as an XY-person) posses divinely inspired knowledge that makes it possible for me to interpret X and Y as anything I like.

No I'm not sayingthe Quran is useless thats what you're saying not me. And you're not gettig it. If you read the Quran Allah is talking about his creation and while he is talking about it, you see that all the things discussed about the creation is true and actually keeps up with modern science. Such as the big bang theory (surah ambiyaa) that all life is from water(surah ambiyaa and nur I think). It's just like Allah is telling us about the creation through a religious
point I view, but if you want to look at it scientifically, nothing can be proved wrong. All facts in Quran about creation keep up with modern science.

 

[Tony]

We are slaves of Allah, as far as I know there are no scholars as such on here. So why you are trying so hard to trip up Muslims and hold us to account for your disbeleif, I think there is a nagging voice in the heads of agnostic and atheists that Islam is the true path, you post on here expecting great answers from mere slaves of Allah and I think you use our responses to excuse yourself from following the righteous path. We are not trying to convert anyone, this is your own responsibility, it is enough for us to stay on the right path and become ever closer to our exalted Lord Allah. I have all the proof I need when my Dua's are answered and Allah grants me peace. Stop trying so hard to catch people out, if you dont beleive thats up to you, I hope your eyes will be opened but its not our responsibility. There are miracles in the Qur'an and indeed the Qur'an itself is a miracle in as such as it is an everliving word of God. Peace to you all

 

[ZarathustraDK]

i see all what you are posting is skeptical philosophy actually i am not discussing philosophy in this thread .some of the peopel on this thread have asked for more evidence we provided them with the scientists names and the links of their views .but the philosophical arguement you are up to is something i dont care about .simply we provide facts that we consider miracle . you are not ready to believe it so it is up to you . i will not be dragged to philosophical discussion of the xy type

Miracle or not, you agree with me that whatever hearsay you hear from non-muslim scientists, Ayaan and Santa Claus is not in itself proof of anything, correct?

No I'm not sayingthe Quran is useless thats what you're saying not me. And you're not gettig it.

I am getting that you think something is a miracle, and it is your right to think so. But the moment you put it to a public forum your uttering becomes inter-subjective and subject criticism, criticism that you either have to refute or accept. I don't do this in order to bash you or islam, I'm above that sort of childish behavior. I simply don't understand how you can take personal belief as inter-subjective proof something, yet chide me when I employ the exact same mode of reasoning.

If you read the Quran Allah is talking about his creation and while he is talking about it, you see that all the things discussed about the creation is true and actually keeps up with modern science.

"True" as in "proof", or "true" as in "I believe it's true" (in which case it may not be true).

Such as the big bang theory (surah ambiyaa) that all life is from water(surah ambiyaa and nur I think).

Life cannot arise from water, it requires sulphur, phosphorous, carbon and nitrogen too. I know, I know, but you see how ambiguity plays a role here, right?

So why you are trying so hard to trip up Muslims and hold us to account for your disbeleif

I'm simply discussing a subject on a forum with the same tools I'd discuss politics, math, and Britney Spears' hair-length with, logic, as I wouldn't make much sense if I discussed illogically. It's not a matter of tripping up anybody and feeling gleeful about, stop feeling so sorry for yourself, I'm not trying to be mean.

Indeed, if the topic was about life, the universe and everything, I'd beg for people to trip me, prove me wrong, refute my arguments etc. because then I would that much wiser afterwards. But you guys treat it like I've thrown crap at you.

I think there is a nagging voice in the heads of agnostic and atheists that Islam is the true path, you post on here expecting great answers from mere slaves of Allah and I think you use our responses to excuse yourself from following the righteous path.

If I knew (knew as in inter-subjective proof) that Islam was the true path, I'd be the first to offer myself to Allah. Why would I do otherwise? What you're saying there is tantamount to jumping into a tiger-pit in order to excuse oneself from jumping into the tiger-pit, which would be kind of...counter-productive and senseless.

We are not trying to convert anyone, this is your own responsibility, it is enough for us to stay on the right path and become ever closer to our exalted Lord Allah. I have all the proof I need when my Dua's are answered and Allah grants me peace. Stop trying so hard to catch people out, if you dont beleive thats up to you.

Again with proof and belief mixing it up. They are different from each other.

There are miracles in the Qur'an and indeed the Qur'an itself is a miracle in as such as it is an everliving word of God

You believe that. Your personal belief is not proof it is true, yet you spout it as it was fact in order to rile up fellow muslims.
That is all I am saying. It's the "Emperors New Clothes" all over again. I'm just the little boy in the crowd calling a shovel for a shovel.

 

[Tony]

Zarath....DK you are presumptious. You do not know me yet you accuse me of feeling sorry for myself, Ive been thru it and back without ever having felt sorry for myself as for trying to stir up Muslims ????? You are a bizzare and I think a bit twisted person. Go stir yourself up and I would suggest ou spend a bit more time outdoors in the real world instead of trying to dish out underhanded aggression in cyber space.We are Muslims and we dont need to be stirred up any more than we already are

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

You do not know me yet you accuse me of feeling sorry for myself, Ive been thru it and back without ever having felt sorry for myself as for trying to stir up Muslims ????? You are a bizzare and I think a bit twisted person.

Listen to your own argument: you don't know him, yet you call him twisted and bizarre...

Re: the title of this thread

I think the progress of the thread so far has shown very convincingly that there are no "undisputed miracles of the Holy Quraan".

Peace

 

[Chuck]

First need to define what would most people consider a miracle in an scripture.

 

[Tony]

Greetings,


Listen to your own argument: you don't know him, yet you call him twisted and bizarre...

Re: the title of this thread

I think the progress of the thread so far has shown very convincingly that there are no "undisputed miracles of the Holy Quraan".

Peace

truth be told he hit a nerve. I reacted badly and I am sorry. Im just ordinary guy and a Muslim, I dont want to be battered constantly bout my beleifs, not just in here but everywhere, before ou say it, I am in forum to try and help and be helped not to argue with people. I wil hold my tongue in future and again I sincerely apologise to any one offended

The Qur'an in arabic form is unchangeable, A miracle.

 

[czgibson]

Greetings,

truth be told he hit a nerve. I reacted badly and I am sorry.

It's very big of you to say so. Much respect.

Peace

 

[ZarathustraDK]

First need to define what would most people consider a miracle in an scripture.

True, that's a hard enough question in itself.

My take on it: a miracle is something impossible that happens inter-subjectively anyway. Not chance, luck or extremely unlikely stuff. Something impossible.

Some people would say that extremely unlikely things happening also qualifies as a miracle. From my point of view this would be wrong, as attributing magic and/or divine intervention to something that has a set probability of happening (even by freak chance) would implicitly carry a risk of being wrong about a lot more than what the thing happening entails in itself. In other words, seeing Elvis' face burnt on a piece of toast should make me think "lol funny coincidence" (because it's perfectly possible for it to happen, although very unlikely), not make me start an Elvis-church (which there probably already is somewhere).

 

[tarek samy]

Subhanallah everything ALLAH has told us in QURAAN is coming true . your attempt to copare between Quraan and magic is comething we are told about in our holybook ,it is something repeated and dates back to the revolution of islam . TKtony i see your apology doesnt make sound you are critisizing the way of thinking of those peoeple i think you are right . all the time they are trying to do somthing but to attack islam . look what he sasya about creation froom water ,it is amiracle .nowadays it is unanimous that 90% of the human body is composed of water life cant go without water . these are the proofs they beleive in . all the other composition are trace element not as essential as water .now as i go through the minds of their peolple expressed in their maliciuos posts they actually not seeking conviction and one of them said it in one of their replies . they dont want to beleive that there is holybook which is miraculous what they know about QUraan AND ISLAM IS nul only adopt some idle openion like Ayaan AND magnify it . we muslims know taht islam is a light in heart strenthened by teh mirackles of Quraaan. they are seeking a scientific formula and even in case they are not gonna believe they have teh skeptical philosophy and this constitutes the core of teir misbeliefs

 

[ZarathustraDK]

Subhanallah everything ALLAH has told us in QURAAN is coming true . your attempt to copare between Quraan and magic is comething we are told about in our holybook ,it is something repeated and dates back to the revolution of islam .

Let me guess, it says something like "beware of the kuffir, for they will spin your head around with logic and make you doubt"? If I could sell books by writing "everything in this book is true and magnificent" at the first and last page, I'd be a rich man by now.

TKtony i see your apology doesnt make sound you are critisizing the way of thinking of those peoeple i think you are right . all the time they are trying to do somthing but to attack islam . look what he sasya about creation froom water ,it is amiracle .nowadays it is unanimous that 90% of the human body is composed of water life cant go without water . these are the proofs they beleive in . all the other composition are trace element not as essential as water .

But life can't arise from H20 alone, that's all I said. There is no "essentiality-priority" in this. Without carbon there'd be no life (they call it carbon-based life for a reason), without phosphorous there'd be no life (it's an essential part of the DNA-chain, among other things), without sulphur there'd be no life (well, there could be, but not humans, as they need sulphur for an essential amino-acid), without nitrogen there'd be no life (nitrogen is in all amino-acids which make up DNA).

now as i go through the minds of their peolple expressed in their maliciuos posts they actually not seeking conviction and one of them said it in one of their replies . they dont want to beleive that there is holybook which is miraculous what they know about QUraan AND ISLAM IS nul

Nothing but useless assumptions about other people (which you apparently find malicious) and their motives. You don't bring anything constructive to the table by whispering "boo" and "hooray" in the ears of other people. Sure, you might achieve making them angry at me, but I'd say that would be an underhanded tactic bereft of any sincerity.

only adopt some idle openion like Ayaan AND magnify it

I said it once and I'll say it again. I simply used Ayaan as an example. Whatever she thinks about Islam has nothing to do with what I was explaining. Read it again.

they are seeking a scientific formula and even in case they are not gonna believe they have teh skeptical philosophy and this constitutes the core of teir misbeliefs

Idle assumptions once again. They are close to being true, but could do without the negative spin you seem to put on them. I simply seek truth as revealed by logic, if your belief flies in the face of logic, then it is, by definition, illogical.

 

[Hamayun]

But life can't arise from H20 alone, that's all I said. There is no "essentiality-priority" in this. Without carbon there'd be no life (they call it carbon-based life for a reason), without phosphorous there'd be no life (it's an essential part of the DNA-chain, among other things), without sulphur there'd be no life (well, there could be, but not humans, as they need sulphur for an essential amino-acid), without nitrogen there'd be no life (nitrogen is in all amino-acids which make up DNA).

And you really think if those elements were mentioned to the people living in a desert 1400 years ago it would make any sense??? :?

Words like "Carbon" and "Phosphorous" weren't even invented.... :rollseyes

This place is just full of trolls...

 

[tarek samy]

Let me guess, it says something like "beware of the kuffir, for they will spin your head around with logic and make you doubt"? If I could sell books by writing "everything in this book is true and magnificent" at the first and last page, I'd be a rich man by now.

i see discussion with you is going through a funnel toworda the narrow end what you say here reflects that you know nothing about QURAAN or its versus you say let me guess is logic a matter of guessing ? you debunk yourself if you wanrt to discuss something especailly if it is divine miraculous and widely believed like QURAAN dont try to guess you better learn its literal verses even if you dont want to believe in it

But life can't arise from H20 alone, that's all I said. There is no "essentiality-priority" in this. Without carbon there'd be no life (they call it carbon-based life for a reason), without phosphorous there'd be no life (it's an essential part of the DNA-chain, among other things), without sulphur there'd be no life (well, there could be, but not humans, as they need sulphur for an essential amino-acid), without nitrogen there'd be no life (nitrogen is in all amino-acids which make up DNA).
i see it is completely ridiculous do you this that QURAAN will go desribe the composition of the body that it consists from 21 aminoacids and then names them like leucine ,arginine methionine ...etc to be satisfied ?what makes earth the only planet of life ? it is water which is absent from all other palnets you are forcing me into this basic discussion but no problem
it is obvious and easy judgable

 

[BlackMamba]

To this Zarasusdk dude,
Why do u think ur soo smart and think Muslims are stupid like no Muslim has ever thought "logically" about the quran or learned any science. Just cuz ur atheist and think religion is worthless doesn't mean ur smart there are many people 1000000s of times smarter and more logical than you that are muslim. What qualifications do u have anyway? I mean for some reason it just seems to me like u think u know more and have read more than any Muslim hear. Have you ever read the Quran?

 

[ZarathustraDK]

i see discussion with you is going through a funnel toworda the narrow end what you say here reflects that you know nothing about QURAAN or its versus you say let me guess is logic a matter of guessing ? you debunk yourself if you wanrt to discuss something especailly if it is divine miraculous and widely believed like QURAAN dont try to guess you better learn its literal verses even if you dont want to believe in it

Don't try and sidetrack this with supposed "learnedness" of the Quran. You are not right simply because you can recite a book by heart. I simply said that there is such a "Faith-failsafe" in the Quran. Now please your learnedness, do tell me if I'm wrong: does the Quran not say not to listen Kuffir's advice in matters of what to believe?

i see it is completely ridiculous do you this that QURAAN will go desribe the composition of the body that it consists from 21 aminoacids and then names them like leucine ,arginine methionine ...etc to be satisfied ?

It'd be a nice start. But I agree, it's completely ridiculous to expect that sort of thing from a book almost 1½ millennia old, unless, of course, it's sent from Allah himself who is supposedly omniscient and omnipotent. But does it do that? No. Does it indeed say anything about the sub-microscopic world in any sensical non-ambiguous manner? No, it doesn't, because the first magnifying lens wasn't invented until 3 centuries after the Qurans arrival.

what makes earth the only planet of life ? it is water which is absent from all other palnets you are forcing me into this basic discussion but no problem it is obvious and easy judgable

Sigh, when astronomers say that they look for water first when searching for life on other planets there's actually a reason for it:
1. Water is essential for biological life, just like carbon, sulphur, nitrogen and phosphorous. If one of these are missing, life can't be, they're all equally important in this aspect.
2. Flowing water is easier to identify with a telescope, compared to the other elements.
3. Different from the other elements water is a compund of hydrogen and oxygen (2 other elements) which requires certain circumstances to exist in a useful, life-supporting form. The air-pressure needs to be right, otherwise the water will simply evaporate into space or solidify, same thing goes for temperature. As such, liquid water is rare compared to the other elements, and since it is still essential for life to exist, it only makes sense to focus first and foremost on water when searching for life. But that does not, by no means, make it more/most essential for life to exist than any of the other compounds.

 

[ZarathustraDK]

To this Zarasusdk dude,
Why do u think ur soo smart and think Muslims are stupid like no Muslim has ever thought "logically" about the quran or learned any science. Just cuz ur atheist and think religion is worthless doesn't mean ur smart there are many people 1000000s of times smarter and more logical than you that are muslim. What qualifications do u have anyway? I mean for some reason it just seems to me like u think u know more and have read more than any Muslim hear. Have you ever read the Quran?

I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

Of education I am a philosopher (you know, the guys who discovered how LOGIC works almost a 1000 years before the Quran went to print).

And no, I haven't read the Quran because it (like the bible) basically goes "The Quran is the message Allah because it says so in the Quran, and because of that Allah must exist" which is circular reasoning and not proof of anything. The amount of content does not change anything, you can stuff a turkey all you want, it's still a turkey afterwards.

So Shakoor15-guy, I'm sure you find the Quran exhilerating and beautiful, that does not mean it's true. There are heaps of would-be proofs of an omnipotent god out there, some quite well thought out and advanced, yet all fail when logic is applied to them. All I can say is, those would-be proofs are leagues and bounds better than "This book says so, ergo it must be true".

 

[Tornado]

Intelligence and being religious are seperate. There are tons of incredibly intelligent people who are atheists, agnostics, Muslims, Christians, and etc.,

The take home message is, as czgibson said, is that these miracles aren't undisputed.

 

[BlackMamba]

I am an agnostic, not an atheist.

Of education I am a philosopher (you know, the guys who discovered how LOGIC works almost a 1000 years before the Quran went to print).

And no, I haven't read the Quran because it (like the bible) basically goes "The Quran is the message Allah because it says so in the Quran, and because of that Allah must exist" which is circular reasoning and not proof of anything. The amount of content does not change anything, you can stuff a turkey all you want, it's still a turkey afterwards.

So Shakoor15-guy, I'm sure you find the Quran exhilerating and beautiful, that does not mean it's true. There are heaps of would-be proofs of an omnipotent god out there, some quite well thought out and advanced, yet all fail when logic is applied to them. All I can say is, those would-be proofs are leagues and bounds better than "This book says so, ergo it must be true".

Wow man there you go again just listen to yourself go and re-read your posts. First you say that you haven't read the Quran, then in the very next sentence you try to sum up the Quran in one line as if you have mastered all the aspects of the Quran. Who do you think you are? And I've noticed that you've been doing this throughout the whole thread just acting like you are better than everyone.

 

[ZarathustraDK]

Wow man there you go again just listen to yourself go and re-read your posts. First you say that you haven't read the Quran, then in the very next sentence you try to sum up the Quran in one line as if you have mastered all the aspects of the Quran. Who do you think you are? And I've noticed that you've been doing this throughout the whole thread just acting like you are better than everyone.

I have supplied explanations and refutations for all your...musings... What have you supplied other than attempts trying to sully my background?

Truth does not care about whether you like the form in which it is delivered, that's the beauty of it. If it's true, then it's true.

Truth doesn't care whether you are an imam, Stephen Hawking or a buffoon, which is why not having read the Quran is not a prerequisite for questioning its veracity. How do you think new knowledge is discovered in this world? It's done by having a discoverer of something new being put into a shower of questions from fellow humans in order to see if his claims holds true in light of that which we know to be true with absolute certainty.
In your eyes new knowledge is discovered by having somebody supposedly discover something new, write a book about it, then "prove" its veracity by telling everyone who read the book that the book is to be read as it was the utmost truth in the world. Of course the book will be "true" on that premise, however we do not live in a world where we can say (with any sort of certainty) that that premise is fulfilled.