US to promote gay rights abroad

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Abz2000 said:
"On the advice of an astrologer and others, he decided to marry a bi*ch to get cured.
Then we arranged Selvakumar's marriage with a bi*ch.
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lol why are you censoring the word *****? it's a harmless, proper, English word when used it proper context. :omg:;D
 
Tragic Typos said:
It is not as simple as that unfortunately. Some people don't believe in Islam. There needs to be an argument that can persuade non-Muslims that gay marriage will cause problems. Like members have raised issues concerning people marrying their immediate family members, animals, objects and so on...
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In some cases it's not as simple as that. But in an Islamic state (which this forum is ultimately about), it is! We don't owe America the Great an explanation tyvm. On-the-other-hand there are many persuasive arguments, hence, even most of America doesn't accept gay marriage.
"Since 2001, ten countries have begun allowing same-sex couples to marry nationwide." None of which are the hypocritical United states.
 
the U.S government is becoming a real pain in the a*** for other nations
 
ariginality said:
But in an Islamic state (which this forum is ultimately about), it is!
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Salaam,

Unfortunately, it is still complicated. There are Muslims that are attracted to people of the same sex. Now there is massive support for homosexuals to get married, adopt children and so on. Some gay Muslims also support these ideas. Muslims must be able to develop arguments that can show others why homosexual sex is forbidden. If we fail to do this, people will not take Islam seriously and some Muslims may even leave their faith as a result.

You can have an Islamic state but that does not mean it will survive if we continue to treat controversial topics in a simplistic manner. They must be addressed and discussed.
 
Tragic Typos said:
Salaam,

It is not as simple as that unfortunately. Some people don't believe in Islam. There needs to be an argument that can persuade non-Muslims that gay marriage will cause problems. Like members have raised issues concerning people marrying their immediate family members, animals, objects and so on...
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Indeed. And as a heterosexual non-muslim, arguments that "Allah forbids it" will obviously hold no sway whatsoever over me. However, I would be open to rational secular arguments like you're suggesting, if there are any. I have yet to encounter any good ones.

The best argument I have against gay marriage would be against marriage itself. One may argue that people should not get special rights just because they find a spouse (of the opposite sex or otherwise) and that this discriminates against single people. One could also put forth a feminist argument, that marriage started as the ownership of women by men, etc.

But I'm aware of no good arguments that would support heterosexual marriage but oppose homosexual marriage. The only arguments I've seen for that boil down to tradition and/or bigotry dressed up as religion.
 
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There are plenty of good rational secular arguments against homosexual relations itself, and by extension, homosexual marriage.

Just because you don't accept it, doesn't mean there isn't any.

The same with religions:
By all accounts, Islam theology is foolproof and much superior than christianity, and yet christians reject rational arguments of Islam while preferring their own irrational illogical theology.
 
Ramadhan said:
There are plenty of good rational secular arguments against homosexual relations itself, and by extension, homosexual marriage.
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Salaam,

Can you please list these arguments? I would like to know them as well.
 
As would I.

I strongly suspect he doesn't actually have any though.

One I sometimes hear is that "homosexual couples don't procreate".... well neither do infertile couples and we don't push to ban them from marrying.

Another I sometimes hear is that homosexuality is "unatural", but in fact many non-human animal species have homosexuals.

Another I sometimes hear is that it will lead to a myriad of crime and abuse and disease. But if you look at the countries that have legalized homosexual marriage you don't see any such increases.

The only remaining argument I've heard is that "marriage is between a man and a woman" and that homosexual marriage makes a mockery of the "institution of marriage" (whatever that is supposed to mean). But we don't see the same people pushing to outlaw short term marriages or celebrity attention seeking marriages or political marriages or any other kind of marriage that makes a mockery of it.

So what's left? I can think of nothing but "It should be banned because its wrong, and its wrong because my God says so".

At the end of the day I see no rational reason to stop homosexuals from marrying the people they love, like everybody else. And I don't think their relationships are anybody's business but theirs. I do agree that they shouldn't flaunt it or push it at people, but I feel the same way about heterosexuals, and for that matter, about religion.

Also, I wish people would stop letting their religions motivate them to exclaim that homosexuality is a "choice", when the fact is that their subscribing to their religion is far more a choice than the homosexual's sexual orientation is.
 
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Tragic Typos said:
Salaam,

Can you please list these arguments? I would like to know them as well.
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:wa:

http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134300393-homosexuality.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/health-science/134293001-homosexuality.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/general/134304700-muslims-homosexuality-discussion.html


Pygoscelis said:
Also, I wish people would stop letting their religions motivate them to exclaim that homosexuality is a "choice", when the fact is that their subscribing to their religion is far more a choice than the homosexual's sexual orientation is.
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Yes, subscription to religion is a choice, and so is homosexual relations (notice I didn't use the word homosexuality).
So, what's your point?
 
Pygoscelis said:
Indeed. And as a heterosexual non-muslim, arguments that "Allah forbids it" will obviously hold no sway whatsoever over me. However, I would be open to rational secular arguments like you're suggesting, if there are any. I have yet to encounter any good ones.

The best argument I have against gay marriage would be against marriage itself. One may argue that people should not get special rights just because they find a spouse (of the opposite sex or otherwise) and that this discriminates against single people. One could also put forth a feminist argument, that marriage started as the ownership of women by men, etc.

But I'm aware of no good arguments that would support heterosexual marriage but oppose homosexual marriage. The only arguments I've seen for that boil down to tradition and/or bigotry dressed up as religion.
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actually its the women who want to get married and get to "be the bride." I am sure most, if not all, kaafir men would be happy in sleeping around with that woman without all that marriage event thing if it socially acceptable and if the woman was not putting pressure.
 
Homosexual relations is very much so a choice, but homosexuality is not. When someone is homosexual, it's not easy to force themselves to act or do heterosexual things. It's not who they are. So, they feel very uncomfortable and end up rejecting the oppressors who do not accept them for how they were born. It diminishes their faith in any god when they have to struggle with a situation like this making them very unhappy and insecure. That's just what happens.

I honestly think people are simply grossed out by it and have to utilise their religion to come up with excuses as to why it's wrong, which obviously does not hold up in any fair debate. That's why anti-gay marriage people always refer to it as "sexual relations" and "what happens in the bedroom" as if that's what it's about. Homosexual relationships are the same as heterosexual ones. The gender may be different, but the love is very real and very much so the same. If anything, gay couples can be stronger because they're forced to go through the hardships it is to be oppressed by a society for even existing.

If anyone says homosexuality is a choice, then say that your religion said heterosexuality was wrong and homosexuality was right. How easy would it be to change that part of yourself to fit your religion? You wouldn't want anything to do with it, would you?
 
i would like if someone can open new thread that homosexual will wrecked a country either economically or socially. :hmm:
 
Pygoscelis said:
Another I sometimes hear is that homosexuality is "unatural", but in fact many non-human animal species have homosexuals.
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I think we all can agree that we do not use animals as a standard to judge human behaviour...
 
polygamy is also 'natural' amongst animals.. so why pick and choose the model animal behavior you desire to subscribe to and ban the other?
 
ßlµêßêll said:
polygamy is also 'natural' amongst animals.. so why pick and choose the model animal behavior you desire to subscribe to and ban the other?
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as well as incestuous. Just google "bonobos".

Some animals also marry themselves, so why don't we allow people to get married to themselves.
 
ßlµêßêll said:
polygamy is also 'natural' amongst animals.. so why pick and choose the model animal behavior you desire to subscribe to and ban the other?
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Exactly. This shows the weakness of the "its not natural!" argument you sometimes hear. Neither are a lot of other things. Its not "natural" for humans to fly, but we do build airplanes and nobody says that's wrong.
 
Pygoscelis said:
Exactly. This shows the weakness of the "its not natural!" argument you sometimes hear. Neither are a lot of other things. Its not "natural" for humans to fly, but we do build airplanes and nobody says that's wrong.
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Natural is what is in conformity with the majority.. there are indeed things skewed to the left and skewed to the right, they're excluded from the bell curve for a number of reason, not merely because they're not representative with the corpus but because of their futility. It goes under a different heading.. If you view sexuality as mere gratification and decadence then sure this can be 'natural' and so is any other act forbidden or not.. if you view it as a tool for progress, growth, improvement and betterment for the human race then it is indeed an aberration and a dead end one at that..both in 'nature' and by the moral code of religion. It is 'natural' for weed to grow amongst cultivated plants..
Decadence is viewed as a degeneration of morality...

best,
 
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