"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

in Islam, everything is based on knowledge, the more knowledge you have , the more you trust in God, the more pious you are, and that's why the first word revealed is "Ekara" which means "READ", so knowledge is keept in high esteem.

so when you have something that is not well defined, a complex thing, then a number of definitions come from that, same as people can't really define the word "intelligence", cuz it's a complex thing.

A former Muslim told me the more knowledge you have the less your security you have. He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation. If that is the case, where do you think you stand? Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity. I do not commit shirk as you may suppose, because I believe in the true God and Creator of the worlds. The God I know first loved me, and it is His goodness that leads me to repentance. You must love your God in order to be loved back (maybe). We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it. We have something to offer that no other religion has, and it makes Satan mad. We have the light. According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word. To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth. I wouldn’t change shoes with anyone for the whole world. Glory to God in the highest.

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation.

No wonder this guy is a former Muslim... where did he get his knowledge from? Anti-Islamic websites? The Prophet knew fully well that he was granted Paradise.

Looks like you friend never had much knowledge to begin with.

Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity.

We are saved because of our own actions and the Mercy of God. It is called justice. Don't expect an evil sinning Muslim to enter paradise without being punished. That is not just.

No wonder your religion has so little rules that you need to follow. No one would follow them even if they did exist because they already think they are saved.

I don't know that I am covered. That is why I continue to do good deeds and strive in the way of Allah, because I need it. If I knew I was already guaranteed paradise I would not do half the good deeds I do now.

By the way, it is very arrogant of you to think you are guaranteed Paradise- you are not deed yet. You could die an atheist for all you know.

We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it.

Yeh, a solid foundation based on a book whose authenticity is disputed. :rollseyes

According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word.

Yeh, same goes to Christianity, we believe in the more or less the same prophets, duh.

To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth.

To the Muslim, God is well above all that you attribute to Him and your sin of attributing a Son to Him is so great that it even the mountains would crumble upon being exposed it, had God not protected them that.

To the Muslim, we know that God is Just and so would not punish an innocent with the sins of others, let alone allow Himself to be punished at the hands of His creation!! What blasphemy! We are all held accountable for our own deeds.

We know that our fate is in our own hands, and by doing good deeds ourselves and hoping for the Mercy of Allah we will be saved.

Paradise is for those who do good, not for lip service.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

No wonder this guy is a former Muslim... where did he get his knowledge from? Anti-Islamic websites? The Prophet knew fully well that he was granted Paradise.

Looks like you friend never had much knowledge to begin with.


We are saved because of our own actions and the Mercy of God. It is called justice. Don't expect an evil sinning Muslim to enter paradise without being punished. That is not just.

No wonder your religion has so little rules that you need to follow. No one would follow them even if they did exist because they already think they are saved.

I don't know that I am covered. That is why I continue to do good deeds and strive in the way of Allah, because I need it. If I knew I was already guaranteed paradise I would not do half the good deeds I do now.

By the way, it is very arrogant of you to think you are guaranteed Paradise- you are not deed yet. You could die an atheist for all you know.




Yeh, a solid foundation based on a book whose authenticity is disputed. :rollseyes



Yeh, same goes to Christianity, we believe in the more or less the same prophets, duh.



To the Muslim, God is well above all that you attribute to Him and your sin of attributing a Son to Him is so great that it even the mountains would crumble upon being exposed it, had God not protected them that.

To the Muslim, we know that God is Just and so would not punish an innocent with the sins of others, let alone allow Himself to be punished at the hands of His creation!! What blasphemy! We are all held accountable for our own deeds.

We know that our fate is in our own hands, and by doing good deeds ourselves and hoping for the Mercy of Allah we will be saved.

Paradise is for those who do good, not for lip service.

Is it not true that Muhammad said that even though he is an apostel of Allah he doesn't know what Allah will do to him? He even said that one can be tormented in the grave just for soiling his pants. If you are not sure it can be found in the hadith 5.266 and look at 2.460. Either you are not being honest with me or you don't know the QUR'AN as well as I thought!
Peace

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Is it not true that Muhammad said that even though he is an apostel of Allah he doesn't know what Allah will do to him? He even said that one can be tormented in the grave just for soiling his pants. If you are not sure it can be found in the hadith 5.266 and look at 2.460. Either you are not being honest with me or you don't know the QUR'AN as well as I thought!
Peace

Just want to clarify a few things. The Ahadith are not part of the Qur'an, although we do give much credability to the Ahadith and are obligated to obey the authentic Ahadith. The Hadith are much more like the Gospels, rather than being the words of God(swt) they are the words of reliable witnesses. The reliability of ahadith is dependent upon it's authenticity, which is why when we quote any Hadith it is essential to name the narrator of the Hadith.

Trying to find authentic hadith that correspond with the numbers that you mention I find from Bukhari:

Volumn 001, Book 005, Hadith Number 266.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By Maimuna bint Al-Harith : I placed water for the bath of Allah's Apostle and put a screen. He poured water over his hands, and washed them once or twice. (The subnarrator added that he did not remember if she had said thrice or not). Then he poured water with his right hand over his left one and washed his private parts. He rubbed his hand over the earth or the wall and washed it. He rinsed his mouth and washed his nose by putting water in it and blowing it out. He washed his face, forearms and head. He poured water over his body and then withdrew from that place and washed his feet. I presented him a piece of cloth (towel) and he pointed with his hand (that he does not want it) and did not take it.

There is no ayyat in the Qur'an numbered 5:266 so I am assuming you are talking about an Hadith.


I do not find any authentic hadith numbered 2:460,, Nor is there any ayyat in the Qur'an listed as 2:460

 

[Philosopher]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

LOL, alapiana1 got owned.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

LOL, alapiana1 got owned.

I don't see it that way. He is not Muslim and I do not expect him to be familiar with the Qur'an or the Ahadith. I can understand how there would be some confusion for a Non-Muslim over the words we use.

I do disagree with his beliefs and believe he is in error. But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe.

Because I disagree with his beliefs does not mean I believe he would intentionaly say something invalid.

 

[NoName55]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

.................But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe
.............I believe he would (not) intentionaly say something invalid.

Then why does he never give a direct answer when a straight forward question is asked?

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

.................But, I also believe he is very sincere as to what he does believe
.............I believe he would intentionaly say something invalid........
/quote]Then why does he never give a direct answer when a straight forward question is asked?

Only he can answer that.

I am assuming it is either an oversight or an honest lack of knowledge to answer the question. I believe that he was under the impression that his answers would be self evident and that he would never be questioned as to the validity of them.

I do not think he expected the reaction he gets from us and is only just now realizing that his beliefs and answers are self evident only to him. Since we as Muslims do question everything, we do not accept anything simply because it is told to us. This can be quite a difficult awakening to anybody who has accepted blind faith. I doubt that he expected the reactions he has been getting and that he expected us to believe everything because it is written in the Bible. We are probably the first people he has come across that do not accept the bible as being the word of God(swt)

 

[ummzayd]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

By the way, the Qur'an misrepresents Biblical Christianity. It bases its assumptions on Catholicism, because no where in the Bible does it state that followers of Christ are to include Mary as deity or part of the trinity. Remember, we do not see God as one in three gods. We see Him as one substance yet three persons, and contrary to the Qur'an, Mary is not part of it.

last time I looked Catholics were in the majority (by a long way) in the Christian world. and Catholics worship Mary. And a god is 'one who is worthy of worship'. so they take Mary as a god.

the part of qur'an you quoted doesn't mention bible or trinity. as usual, no mistake there. it is entirely correct and even precise. all praise belongs to Allah ta'ala.

peace

 

[NoName55]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Only he can answer that.

I am assuming it is either an oversight or an honest lack of knowledge to answer the question. I believe that he was under the impression that his answers would be self evident and that he would never be questioned as to the validity of them.

I do not think he expected the reaction he gets from us and is only just now realizing that his beliefs and answers are self evident only to him. Since we as Muslims do question everything, we do not accept anything simply because it is told to us. This can be quite a difficult awakening to anybody who has accepted blind faith. I doubt that he expected the reactions he has been getting and that he expected us to believe everything because it is written in the Bible. We are probably the first people he has come across that do not accept the bible as being the word of God(swt)

JazakAllah khaira wa Salaam Alaikum

 

[Malaikah]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Is it not true that Muhammad said that even though he is an apostel of Allah he doesn't know what Allah will do to him? He even said that one can be tormented in the grave just for soiling his pants. If you are not sure it can be found in the hadith 5.266 and look at 2.460. Either you are not being honest with me or you don't know the QUR'AN as well as I thought!
Peace

I know what I am talking about. I also know which hadith you are referring too, and that there is a context and interpretation to it. I can't remember what it was though- I think it might have been that the Prophet pbuh said it BEFORE it was clarified to him that he would enter paradise without being punished.

Anyway, don't quote me on that, I'm not 100% certain. The one thing I am certain about is that your friend is wrong and the Prophet was guaranteed paradise.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

A former Muslim told me the more knowledge you have the less your security you have. He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation. If that is the case, where do you think you stand? Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity. I do not commit shirk as you may suppose, because I believe in the true God and Creator of the worlds. The God I know first loved me, and it is His goodness that leads me to repentance. You must love your God in order to be loved back (maybe). We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it. We have something to offer that no other religion has, and it makes Satan mad. We have the light. According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word. To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth. I wouldn’t change shoes with anyone for the whole world. Glory to God in the highest.

This deception of falsely being assured of salvation is what may mislead Muslims from the straight path they are on. Muslims be warned!

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I know what I am talking about. I also know which hadith you are referring too, and that there is a context and interpretation to it. I can't remember what it was though- I think it might have been that the Prophet pbuh said it BEFORE it was clarified to him that he would enter paradise without being punished.

Anyway, don't quote me on that, I'm not 100% certain. The one thing I am certain about is that your friend is wrong and the Prophet was guaranteed paradise.

The only earnest we have of paradise is having the Holy Spirit and being sealded by the blood of the lamb hid in Christ.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I can see that you have not grasped the degree of security and assurance we do have as Muslims. We know that Allah(swt) is all just and merciful. We do know that he will punish us no more than what our sins warrant, but that out of his goodness and forgiveness he will reward us countless times more than what we could ever be worthy of. We trust in His word without any question and know fully that he will guide us as we walk on the path to Jannah.

True. Only with justice we go to Hell, but it's the forgivness of Allah swt that helps us to enter Jannah.
may Allah make us of those who enter Jannah.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

This deception of falsely being assured of salvation is what may mislead Muslims from the straight path they are on. Muslims be warned!

It sounds more like not having assurance leads away from the straight path. It is like walking in darkness with the blind leading the blind as Jesus puts it and the dead burying their dead.:blind:

 

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Hi, Woodrow. It's been months since I've been in any discussions on this board and I may not stick around to enter many now, but your words did seem to need some response.

I can see that you have not grasped the degree of security and assurance we do have as Muslims. We know that Allah(swt) is all just and merciful. We do know that he will punish us no more than what our sins warrant, but that out of his goodness and forgiveness he will reward us countless times more than what we could ever be worthy of. We trust in His word without any question and know fully that he will guide us as we walk on the path to Jannah.

Christians have "security and assurance" based on the promises of the Bible, the Word of God. That may appear as "arrogance," as you called it in another post, but we are simply trusting in God to keep His promises. The Apostle John wrote,

1 John 5:11. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

So, we can KNOW we HAVE eternal life---right now and forever. It's not something we can really boast or be arrogant about, because WE don't deserve it. We are all sinners. It is not the justice of God we seek. That would be US paying for all our own sins. It is His mercy and grace that gives us FREELY His forgiveness based on the shed blood of Christ for our sins. The problem we Christians see is that you Muslims are rejecting the payment that God Himself provided for your sins. That being the case, you have to pay for all of them yourself for all eternity. There are no scales. If you have one sin---just one single sin---that you are not relying on Christ to have paid for, you will pay for it yourself for all eternity. None of your so-called "good deeds" or "good works" will ever cancel out one single sin.

So, Christians see Muslims as mislead into thinking that they will ever get to heaven by their own efforts. Paul, writing to the Christians at Ephesus, put it this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace [=God's giving us freely that which we don't deserve] you have been saved [rescued, delivered from..hell] through faith [trusting in, relying upon Him], and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Writing to Titus, Paul said:

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared [=another way of saying "grace"],
5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7. that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So, we see you as being on the wrong path, headed exactly where you do NOT want to go, because what you're doing and relying on to get to heaven will not take you there. Thankfully, many Muslims have come to a saving knowledge of Christ and have embraced Him as Savior and Lord, receiving His gift of LIFE, both now and hereafter. As quoted above, "he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Peace

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Hi, Woodrow. It's been months since I've been in any discussions on this board and I may not stick around to enter many now, but your words did seem to need some response.



Christians have "security and assurance" based on the promises of the Bible, the Word of God. That may appear as "arrogance," as you called it in another post, but we are simply trusting in God to keep His promises. The Apostle John wrote,

1 John 5:11. And this is the testimony: that God has given us eternal life, and this life is in His Son.
12. He who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life.
13. These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God, that you may know that you have eternal life, and that you may continue to believe in the name of the Son of God.

So, we can KNOW we HAVE eternal life---right now and forever. It's not something we can really boast or be arrogant about, because WE don't deserve it. We are all sinners. It is not the justice of God we seek. That would be US paying for all our own sins. It is His mercy and grace that gives us FREELY His forgiveness based on the shed blood of Christ for our sins. The problem we Christians see is that you Muslims are rejecting the payment that God Himself provided for your sins. That being the case, you have to pay for all of them yourself for all eternity. There are no scales. If you have one sin---just one single sin---that you are not relying on Christ to have paid for, you will pay for it yourself for all eternity. None of your so-called "good deeds" or "good works" will ever cancel out one single sin.

So, Christians see Muslims as mislead into thinking that they will ever get to heaven by their own efforts. Paul, writing to the Christians at Ephesus, put it this way:

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace [=God's giving us freely that which we don't deserve] you have been saved [rescued, delivered from..hell] through faith [trusting in, relying upon Him], and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God,
9. not of works, lest anyone should boast.

Writing to Titus, Paul said:

Titus 3:4. But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared [=another way of saying "grace"],
5. not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit,
6. whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior,
7. that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

So, we see you as being on the wrong path, headed exactly where you do NOT want to go, because what you're doing and relying on to get to heaven will not take you there. Thankfully, many Muslims have come to a saving knowledge of Christ and have embraced Him as Savior and Lord, receiving His gift of LIFE, both now and hereafter. As quoted above, "he who has the Son has life; he who does not have the Son of God does not have life."

Peace

Amen to that:thumbs_up
The boasting is OK if it is in the Lord.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

What you see in us as insecurity we see as acknowledgement of the power of Allah(swt) We accept the fact that Allah(swt) is greater than us and it is only his will that is of importance. we have no control over what Allah(swt) will do, it is His will and it is for us to accept it and be forever grateful for what ever He chooses to bestow upon us. We also have faith that He will be fair and mercifull in his choices.

In contrast we see what you call security as being arrogance and an insult to the Power of Allah(swt). Do you not know that if for any reason He chooses he has the power to cast you and who ever he desires into the hellfire and he owes us humans no explanation as to why? Do you deny the absolute authority of Allah(swt) and feel that he does not have the right or ability to do as he wishes? Is not everything ultimatly up to the will of Allah(swt) and He will do as He wills, Inshallah?

I also believe Allah(swt) keeps his word and that in the Qur'an He has said:

This last point, that God keeps his word, is where the confidence and assurance comes from for the Christian. There should be no arrogance, because you are right, the only place that we are worthy of is hell. If God was only just then that is exactly where all Christians would spend eternity. But we also have found God to be gracious. A gracious that is not the result of any of our actions. We can't earn or merit any of God's blessings. They are all acts of God's mercy directed toward us. But we do have God's word, that those who believe in Jesus Christ, who confess him as their Lord and Savior, will be saved.

That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. (Romans 10:9)

Maybe others will be saved as well. I'm not going to exclude the possibility, because that is for God, not me, to determine. But we do have this promise, and, as a Christain, I trust God to keep his promise made to us in Christ Jesus. How could one call believing God to be true to his word arrogance? It's just confidence is all.

 

[ummzayd]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

There are no scales.

He will weigh me in accurate scales, and God will get to know my integrity. Job 31:6

 

[Philosopher]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

The choice is yours. Choose LIFE and live forever, by receiving His GIFT today!

Peace

All hail the flying spaghetti monster.

In all seriousness, I'd rather avoid heaven living with perverts and mass murderers and rather say in hell with Gandhi.