"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[Phil12123]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

helloooooo? , are you up to date with the thread, we have been already talking about mercy of Allah swt. The trial on the day of judgment happens before entering heaven., the trial is not held in heaven or hell, but after the trial people go to heaven or hell. and those who recieve Allah's mercy, their sins are forgiven and are cleaned and put in Jannah, since nothing bad can enter Jannah. there can be someone who has more bad deeds that good deeds, but if Allah wants to give mercy to him, he will forgive his sins. CAUTION: Allah forgives anything but joining partnership with him. if you die in that state you'll enter Hell through the 7 doors.

Subhanallah !!!!!. When you say "I am granted paradise", you are telling God "hey, i believed in you, now you have to put me in paradise". This thing about "the gift" one of the biggest tricks of Shaitan, trying to mislead people. There is no such gift, you have to work all your life so you win the Jannah on the afterlife, this life is a test, nothing more. Have you ever seen someone get a BSc+MSc+PhD without ever going to univesity?just recieveing a gift, "heyyy I got a diploma on my post mail". no, you have to study and do exams to get the degrees and in every signel aspect of your life, it's common sense, you work, you get. if you don't work you don't get. there's no such thing as , ops it came.
Jesus Christ did not die for you sins, he didn't even die at all, he will come , and then die as all other prophets. Jesus Christ will be held accountable for himself, not for you. If you are on university, don't ever try to hold on someone else and say "my friend studied, I will get an A on the exam", no, on the day of judgement, everybody will be preoccupied with him/her self. Even Mary will forget Jesus, from being herself occupied. Nobody's gonna help you on day of judgement, this is a trick of Shaitan, and when you die, you'll see that no one is gonna be able to help you. NO JESUS. it's gonna be you, and your deeds, and your belief, and if you joined partnership with Allah, wallahi , you will enter among one of the 7 gates of the hell, cuz Allah doesn't forgive this sin of joining him partnership. and it's going to be too late. don't get tricked by Shaitan. We see in our daily life, everyone is responsible for their own duties, so we are ,for our deeds that we did.

You just don't get it, do you? But then you are expressing the Muslim view, so I shouldn't expect you to get the Christian view. From all the posts, both Muslim and Christian, we can conclude that there is agreement on some very clear points:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. The view you have expressed represents the Muslim view that Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

I think that covers points of agreement. Have I left anything out?

Peace

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Christians what they believe or should believe when they both obviously don't believe it, and have clearly explained why they don't believe it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

I disagree. We are both presenting our views of the Truth in the Comparative Religion section to which I see this thread still fits.

What flavor of ice cream do you like?????

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You just don't get it, do you? But then you are expressing the Muslim view, so I shouldn't expect you to get the Christian view. From all the posts, both Muslim and Christian, we can conclude that there is agreement on some very clear points:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. The view you have expressed represents the Muslim view that Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

I think that covers points of agreement. Have I left anything out?

Peace

i think it's fine except would be could to make this point a little bit more clear

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

5.Muslims have to do good deeds as much as possible, but they also depend on Allah's mercy for the forgivness of sins and in getting mercy in general too, so they can enter Heaven , and they don't know wether they go to Heaven or not, till the trial on the day of judgmenet.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

anyone correct me, cuz my english still is bad

 

[Trumble]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

:sunny: I disagree. We are both presenting our views of the Truth in the Comparative Religion section to which I see this thread still fits.

What flavor of ice cream do you like?????

Chocolate. But if you said you preferred coffee ice-cream I wouldn't tell you that you must, in fact, actually prefer chocolate ice-cream because you had previously said you prefer prefer chocolate cake to coffee cake!

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

You just don't get it, do you? But then you are expressing the Muslim view, so I shouldn't expect you to get the Christian view. From all the posts, both Muslim and Christian, we can conclude that there is agreement on some very clear points:

1. We are all sinners, whether daily or hourly, in word, thought, or deed.

2. Heaven is a perfect place where no sin will ever enter.

3. Without forgiveness of sins, no sinner will ever enter Heaven.

4. No sinner can work enough, or do anything, or be "good" enough, to deserve Heaven.

5. Muslims are hoping in their repentance and Allah's mercy to overcome their sin problem and enter Heaven, which they can never be assured of until the Judgment Day.

6. Christians are relying on repentance and faith in Christ's atoning death for sins, and resurrection, as payment in full for all their sins, in order to receive forgiveness and eternal life as a free gift, here and now and forevermore.

7. The view you have expressed represents the Muslim view that Christ did not die on the cross, let alone for anyone's sins. This view is diametrically and irreconcilably opposed to the Christian Gospel that Christ died for our sins and rose again.

8. According to the Christian view, a person who denies the Deity of Christ will die in his sins (John 8:24,58), and be barred from Heaven.

9. According to the Muslim view, believing Christ is God is associating with Allah, the unforgiveable sin that will bar a person from Heaven.

I think that covers points of agreement. Have I left anything out?

Peace

Excellent Phil, that is a great summary. I believe your points 8 & 9 give a full explanation as to why we can not agree. In accordance with the Bible point 8 is true. In accordance with the Qur'an point 9 is true.

I firmly believe the Qur'an is the truth and that for me to follow Christianity would be the path to Hellfire. I know I can no more convince you the Qur'an is the truth, than you can convince me that the Bible is true. All I can do is Thank Allah(swt) that I was lead away from the Bible and to the Qur'an. I know you are probably Thanking God(swt) that you have the Bible.

There can be no mutual acceptance over the Trinity. The best we can do as Muslims and Christians is disagree in peace.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Christians what they believe or should believe when they both obviously don't believe it, and have clearly explained why they don't believe it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

Chocolate. But if you said you preferred coffee ice-cream I wouldn't tell you that you must, in fact, actually prefer chocolate ice-cream because you had previously said you prefer prefer chocolate cake to coffee cake!

Agreed. I personally find the stream of comments telling Others what flavor of ice-cream they like or they must like when they obviously don't like it, and have clearly explained why they don't like it, both tedious and pointless. It's just repetition of what they consider a 'killer' point by people totally unable to recognise that it is a 'killer' point only to them, and not the folks it is directed at.

So this thread is not about talking for the flavors of ice cream we like. So I think the thread should be closed

;D;D;D

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

When you say "I am granted paradise", you are telling God "hey, i believed in you, now you have to put me in paradise". This thing about "the gift" one of the biggest tricks of Shaitan, trying to mislead people. There is no such gift, you have to work all your life so you win the Jannah on the afterlife, this life is a test, nothing more. Have you ever seen someone get a BSc+MSc+PhD without ever going to univesity?just recieveing a gift, "heyyy I got a diploma on my post mail". no, you have to study and do exams to get the degrees and in every signel aspect of your life, it's common sense, you work, you get. if you don't work you don't get. there's no such thing as , ops it came.

One of the differences between the Christian and the Muslim understanding of salvation is found in the word redemption. I am not sure, it may be that Muslims also use this word, but for Christians it has to do with being restored back to something that we understand we have all lost. As Muslims do not believe in original sin or inherited depravity, there is no need for redemption in the Christian understanding of that term. However, for the Christian, it is this redemptive process, not the passing of a test, that "earns" us salvation. And redemption is not something that we can do for ourselves, that is why we need Christ's atonement to do for us what none of us can do for ourselves.

There is one other reason that the analogy of passing a test to earn a degree does not connect with Christians. We understand that in being redeemed that we are adopted into God's family.

In love he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will. (Ephesians 1:5)

Romans 8
13 If you live according to the sinful nature, you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the misdeeds of the body, you will live, 14because those who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. 15For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear, but you received the Spirit of sonship. And by him we cry, "Abba, Father." 16The Spirit himself testifies with our spirit that we are God's children. 17Now if we are children, then we are heirs—heirs of God and co-heirs with Christ....
23b ...we wait eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our bodies. 24For in this hope we were saved.

While it is true that to get a degree one needs to study and pass a test. And if being admitted to Jannah is like being admitted to the Bar to practice law, then this is a good analogy. But if being admitted to heaven is like being claimed as a member of God's family, then it has no relevance, for parents don't ask their children to do anything to become their children. They are automatically children by being born into it, or in other cases adopted into it. In the case of adoption, the judge makes that decision and it is done, no tests to pass, you just are. (And as regards the law of adoption, I speak from personal family knowledge.)



So, as on many other things, our views as to what we even mean by salvation, though we both use the same word, change the way we view what is and is not reasonable with regard to the process. For Muslims a test seems to be obligatory. For Christians a test would be anathema.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Peace Phil,

You just typed a very key sentence.



That is very true, If Isa(as) had died on the cross for our sins.


We do not believe Isa(as) has died an earthy death and was taken up to Allah(swt) and will return to live the remainder of his earthly life during which he will destroy the anti-Christ.

Why is it you don't believe He died and rose when His death was witnessed even by a centurion who said "Truly this was the Son of God?" Moreover, his resurrection was witnessed and the disciples saw Jesus caught up to heaven. This is very significant statement. All of Christendom is leaning on this being true.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I am not attacking any person's character on this forum like mine is being attacked (everyone knows who’s doing that).

are u talking about me? it's not a big deal if you mention the name, I don't mind.

since Christ did not die for any of His own; He had none.

when you say 'He had none' , it means that Jesus a.s was tempted by evil (commiting sins), but he didn't. So therefore he had none. now, how can God be tempted from evil/sins????? you cannot say about God that he has no sins, bc there are is no 'sin' terminology for God, that terminology works only for us, humans. but anyways

cheers guys. I need to relax now cuz i just finished my exams mmMM what a relief

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

when you say 'He had none' , it means that Jesus a.s was tempted by evil (commiting sins), but he didn't. So therefore he had none. now, how can God be tempted from evil/sins????? you cannot say about God that he has no sins, bc there are is no 'sin' terminology for God, that terminology works only for us, humans. but anyways

I disagree with your suggestion that one cannot "tempt" God. Deuteronomy 6:16 is rendered in various translations:

Ye shall not tempt the LORD your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. -- KJV
Do not test the LORD your God as you did at Massah. -- NIV
Ye do not try Jehovah your God as ye tried in Massah -- Young's
You shall not put the LORD your God to the test, as you tested Him at Massah. -- NASB
Ye shall not tempt Jehovah your God, as ye tempted him in Massah. -- ASV



The key is to understand what it means "to tempt". An oft mistaken notion is that to be tempted is itself is tantamount to sin. In reality temptation says absolutely nothing about the moral character of the one being tempted, good or bad. It means simply that another is attempting to put one to a test.

Can we put God to a test? Well, we shouldn't. But we can try. Trying doesn't mean that God actually experiences the sensation of being tested. Was Jesus tested in the wilderness by the devil? Well, again, the devil tried, but we don't see any signs that Jesus actually felt any experience of being tested by the devil. I think Jesus felt tested more by the physical aspects of fasting than by the devil's attempts at testing him.

cheers guys. I need to relax now cuz i just finished my exams mmMM what a relief

Well, it sounds like you've been through your own time of testing. Congratulations on coming through it. May your results be the ones you are looking for.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Go ahead and bring us your evidence from the Quran then. I see no greater accommodation than this!

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source. He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9) I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this. I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source. No offense intended, but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source. His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3) She basically was telling him what to believe and encouraging him to continue good works and he would be fine. It looks to me that she had some power of influence over the way he viewed his first revelation. This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men (I do not believe this to be true) One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control? Muhammad doubted his revelation, and since it is on the holiest month on the Islamic calendar, Waraqa told Muhammad they would call him a liar; they will persecute thee; they will banish thee, and they will fight against thee. It seems like that was enough to stop the prophet from doubting his revelation. It is written in many reliable documents that Muhammad doubted the source of his revelations as well, and it seems like the only ones that deny this are Muslims. No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation; they may have wonder how God was going to bring a thing to pass. I don’t think it is fair of you to attack my person when the purpose of this post is comparative religion. Moreover, we have been discussing the reliability between The Bible and the Qur’an. I think this documentation is important in determining spiritual validity between the two Books and consistent with determining where the lie lies. We Christians and you Muslims both believe the other is wrong. Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS? We can attack the belief, but we shouldn’t attack the believer as you have done with me.
peace
You are loved

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

The date is important, as it clearly shows the story was an invention and not a true event.

In truth, only some Christians believe that priests should not have children, and no Christians believe that priests are above having children. The reason that those who do not have children have chosen not to is for other reasons than the story implies.

I don't believe priest are above having children because all of us Christians are kings and priests unto the Lord, and many of us have children. You might be thinking of Catholic priest.

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Can we put God to a test? Well, we shouldn't. But we can try. Trying doesn't mean that God actually experiences the sensation of being tested. Was Jesus tested in the wilderness by the devil? Well, again, the devil tried, but we don't see any signs that Jesus actually felt any experience of being tested by the devil. I think Jesus felt tested more by the physical aspects of fasting than by the devil's attempts at testing him.

i;m sorry to say but with this you are put Jesus so low, even that you believe he is God. Devil does not even try to do anything to God, bc God has power over all things, also over the devil, cuz God created him. God is not tempted or tested in any form. you can't test God, but God can test you. but I dont see anything to discuss further bc we percieve God in different ways.

Well, it sounds like you've been through your own time of testing. Congratulations on coming through it. May your results be the ones you are looking for.

thanks

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source. He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9) I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this. I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source. No offense intended, but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source. His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3) She basically was telling him what to believe and encouraging him to continue good works and he would be fine. It looks to me that she had some power of influence over the way he viewed his first revelation. This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men (I do not believe this to be true) One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control?

Of course he run away, and of course he was suprised, it was the first time we was seeing something he never saw before. and of course he run to Khadija, cuz she was his wife, where do u think he was supposed to go? and as for proving that he really recieved a revelation, not Khadija but many many other sahabas have witnessed it, but it seems you read a book and now you think you know everything and try to point things. One example is when the foot of the Prophet saws was laying on the body of a sahaba, and when the Prophet started reciving some verses, his foot became very heavy, so that it was going to break the sahaba's bone where the Prophet's foot was laying. and the revelation didn't happen just that night but it happened for 23 years. so lot of people witnessed it. and concerning women, it's not that women are inferior, it's just that their memory is not the same as the men's memory, and we know this everyday life, usually women are smarter on manipulating, while men are not as good as women, but women forget more than man do. what's wrong with this? both genders have their own problems. just please don't be like those people who read a book on shariah and then come up on tv and say "i'm an expert on shariah" . you're not saying you are an expert but the statements that you are making look like u discovered something, things like this people claimed long time before you, but no luck, cuz things are already proved. just please read more about Quran and it's revelation and they will clear your doubts

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I don't believe priest are above having children because all of us Christians are kings and priests unto the Lord, and many of us have children. You might be thinking of Catholic priest.

Alapiana, what did I say?


"Only some Christians believe that priests ......"


Yes, those who think that way are indeed Catholics. I.e. "Only some Christians (i.e. and these would be those who are Catholics, but not even all Catholics) believe ....."

The suggestion provided by Muslim Woman was incorrect because it was made as a categorical universal statement. I corrected it by noting examples where there were those who held different than she had been told about. But I tried to respect that she might also be aware of some who had those views that I was not aware. I felt this fair, as I am not omniscient, and am aware that in a world as large as ours, that all manner of ideas are presented out there, and she living in a different part of the world than me, might well have run into some things that I was not aware of.

But I don't understand what you are trying to correct me on? Clearly I said, "only some". Do you mean to imply that my statement is wrong because I said some Christians and you don't consider Catholics to be Christian?

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

see the narrators,

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 2: Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) Al-Harith bin Hisham asked Allah's Apostle "O Allah's Apostle! How is the Divine Inspiration revealed to you?" Allah's Apostle replied, "Sometimes it is (revealed) like the ringing of a bell, this form of Inspiration is the hardest of all and then this state passes ' off after I have grasped what is inspired. Sometimes the Angel comes in the form of a man and talks to me and I grasp whatever he says." 'Aisha added: Verily I saw the Prophet being inspired Divinely on a very cold day and noticed the Sweat dropping from his forehead (as the Inspiration was over).

Volume 1, Book 1, Number 3:
Narrated 'Aisha:
(the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read.
The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."
Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.
Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):
'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."







Volume 1, Book 1, Number 4:
Narrated Said bin Jubair:
Ibn 'Abbas in the explanation of the Statement of Allah. 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Quran) to make haste therewith." (75.16) Said "Allah's Apostle used to bear the revelation with great trouble and used to move his lips (quickly) with the Inspiration." Ibn 'Abbas moved his lips saying, "I am moving my lips in front of you as Allah's Apostle used to move his." Said moved his lips saying: "I am moving my lips, as I saw Ibn 'Abbas moving his." Ibn 'Abbas added, "So Allah revealed 'Move not your tongue concerning (the Qur'an) to make haste therewith. It is for us to collect it and to give you (O Muhammad) the ability to recite it (the Qur'an) (75.16-17) which means that Allah will make him (the Prophet ) remember the portion of the Qur'an which was revealed at that time by heart and recite it. The Statement of Allah: And 'When we have recited it to you (O Muhammad through Gabriel) then you follow its (Qur'an) recital' (75.18) means 'listen to it and be silent.' Then it is for Us (Allah) to make It clear to you' (75.19) means 'Then it is (for Allah) to make you recite it (and its meaning will be clear by itself through your tongue). Afterwards, Allah's Apostle used to listen to Gabriel whenever he came and after his departure he used to recite it as Gabriel had recited it."




Volume 1, Book 1, Number 5:
Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
Allah's Apostle was the most generous of all the people, and he used to reach the peak in generosity in the month of Ramadan when Gabriel met him. Gabriel used to meet him every night of Ramadan to teach him the Qur'an. Allah's Apostle was the most generous person, even more generous than the strong uncontrollable wind (in readiness and haste to do charitable deeds).




Volume 1, Book 1, Number 6:
Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Abbas:
Abu Sufyan bin Harb informed me that Heraclius had sent a messenger to him while he had been accompanying a caravan from Quraish. They were merchants doing business in Sham (Syria, Palestine, Lebanon and Jordan), at the time when Allah's Apostle had truce with Abu Sufyan and Quraish infidels. So Abu Sufyan and his companions went to Heraclius at Ilya (Jerusalem). Heraclius called them in the court and he had all the senior Roman dignitaries around him. He called for his translator who, translating Heraclius's question said to them, "Who amongst you is closely related to that man who claims to be a Prophet?" Abu Sufyan replied, "I am the nearest relative to him (amongst the group)."
Heraclius said, "Bring him (Abu Sufyan) close to me and make his companions stand behind him." Abu Sufyan added, Heraclius told his translator to tell my companions that he wanted to put some questions to me regarding that man (The Prophet) and that if I told a lie they (my companions) should contradict me." Abu Sufyan added, "By Allah! Had I not been afraid of my companions labeling me a liar, I would not have spoken the truth about the Prophet. The first question he asked me about him was:
'What is his family status amongst you?'
I replied, 'He belongs to a good (noble) family amongst us.'
Heraclius further asked, 'Has anybody amongst you ever claimed the same (i.e. to be a Prophet) before him?'
I replied, 'No.'
He said, 'Was anybody amongst his ancestors a king?'
I replied, 'No.'
Heraclius asked, 'Do the nobles or the poor follow him?'
I replied, 'It is the poor who follow him.'
He said, 'Are his followers increasing decreasing (day by day)?'
I replied, 'They are increasing.'
He then asked, 'Does anybody amongst those who embrace his religion become displeased and renounce the religion afterwards?'
I replied, 'No.'
Heraclius said, 'Have you ever accused him of telling lies before his claim (to be a Prophet)?'
I replied, 'No. '
Heraclius said, 'Does he break his promises?'
I replied, 'No. We are at truce with him but we do not know what he will do in it.' I could not find opportunity to say anything against him except that.
Heraclius asked, 'Have you ever had a war with him?'
I replied, 'Yes.'
Then he said, 'What was the outcome of the battles?'
I replied, 'Sometimes he was victorious and sometimes we.'
Heraclius said, 'What does he order you to do?'
I said, 'He tells us to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship anything along with Him, and to renounce all that our ancestors had said. He orders us to pray, to speak the truth, to be chaste and to keep good relations with our Kith and kin.'
Heraclius asked the translator to convey to me the following, I asked you about his family and your reply was that he belonged to a very noble family. In fact all the Apostles come from noble families amongst their respective peoples. I questioned you whether anybody else amongst you claimed such a thing, your reply was in the negative. If the answer had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man was following the previous man's statement. Then I asked you whether anyone of his ancestors was a king. Your reply was in the negative, and if it had been in the affirmative, I would have thought that this man wanted to take back his ancestral kingdom.
I further asked whether he was ever accused of telling lies before he said what he said, and your reply was in the negative. So I wondered how a person who does not tell a lie about others could ever tell a lie about Allah. I, then asked you whether the rich people followed him or the poor. You replied that it was the poor who followed him. And in fact all the Apostle have been followed by this very class of people. Then I asked you whether his followers were increasing or decreasing. You replied that they were increasing, and in fact this is the way of true faith, till it is complete in all respects. I further asked you whether there was anybody, who, after embracing his religion, became displeased and discarded his religion. Your reply was in the negative, and in fact this is (the sign of) true faith, when its delight enters the hearts and mixes with them completely. I asked you whether he had ever betrayed. You replied in the negative and likewise the Apostles never betray. Then I asked you what he ordered you to do. You replied that he ordered you to worship Allah and Allah alone and not to worship any thing along with Him and forbade you to worship idols and ordered you to pray, to speak the truth and to be chaste. If what you have said is true, he will very soon occupy this place underneath my feet and I knew it (from the scriptures) that he was going to appear but I did not know that he would be from you, and if I could reach him definitely, I would go immediately to meet him and if I were with him, I would certainly wash his feet.' Heraclius then asked for the letter addressed by Allah's Apostle
which was delivered by Dihya to the Governor of Busra, who forwarded it to Heraclius to read. The contents of the letter were as follows: "In the name of Allah the Beneficent, the Merciful (This letter is) from Muhammad the slave of Allah and His Apostle to Heraclius the ruler of Byzantine. Peace be upon him, who follows the right path. Furthermore I invite you to Islam, and if you become a Muslim you will be safe, and Allah will double your reward, and if you reject this invitation of Islam you will be committing a sin by misguiding your Arisiyin (peasants). (And I recite to you Allah's Statement
'O people of the scripture! Come to a word common to you and us that we worship none but Allah and that we associate nothing in worship with Him, and that none of us shall take others as Lords beside Allah. Then, if they turn away, say: Bear witness that we are Muslims (those who have surrendered to Allah).' (3:64).
Abu Sufyan then added, "When Heraclius had finished his speech and had read the letter, there was a great hue and cry in the Royal Court. So we were turned out of the court. I told my companions that the question of Ibn-Abi-Kabsha) (the Prophet Muhammad) has become so prominent that even the King of Bani Al-Asfar (Byzantine) is afraid of him. Then I started to become sure that he (the Prophet) would be the conqueror in the near future till I embraced Islam (i.e. Allah guided me to it)."
The sub narrator adds, "Ibn An-Natur was the Governor of llya' (Jerusalem) and Heraclius was the head of the Christians of Sham. Ibn An-Natur narrates that once while Heraclius was visiting ilya' (Jerusalem), he got up in the morning with a sad mood. Some of his priests asked him why he was in that mood? Heraclius was a foreteller and an astrologer. He replied, 'At night when I looked at the stars, I saw that the leader of those who practice circumcision had appeared (become the conqueror). Who are they who practice circumcision?' The people replied, 'Except the Jews nobody practices circumcision, so you should not be afraid of them (Jews).
'Just Issue orders to kill every Jew present in the country.'
While they were discussing it, a messenger sent by the king of Ghassan to convey the news of Allah's Apostle to Heraclius was brought in. Having heard the news, he (Heraclius) ordered the people to go and see whether the messenger of Ghassan was circumcised. The people, after seeing him, told Heraclius that he was circumcised. Heraclius then asked him about the Arabs. The messenger replied, 'Arabs also practice circumcision.'
(After hearing that) Heraclius remarked that sovereignty of the 'Arabs had appeared. Heraclius then wrote a letter to his friend in Rome who was as good as Heraclius in knowledge. Heraclius then left for Homs. (a town in Syrian and stayed there till he received the reply of his letter from his friend who agreed with him in his opinion about the emergence of the Prophet and the fact that he was a Prophet. On that Heraclius invited all the heads of the Byzantines to assemble in his palace at Homs. When they assembled, he ordered that all the doors of his palace be closed. Then he came out and said, 'O Byzantines! If success is your desire and if you seek right guidance and want your empire to remain then give a pledge of allegiance to this Prophet (i.e. embrace Islam).'
(On hearing the views of Heraclius) the people ran towards the gates of the palace like onagers but found the doors closed. Heraclius realized their hatred towards Islam and when he lost the hope of their embracing Islam, he ordered that they should be brought back in audience.
(When they returned) he said, 'What already said was just to test the strength of your conviction and I have seen it.' The people prostrated before him and became pleased with him, and this was the end of Heraclius's story (in connection with his faith).

 

[vpb]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Please be patient and read it all, so then we continue our discussion.

btw, since I took the hadiths from a summarized sahih bukhari, the hadiths are put only once, since it is the summarized version, but if we check the full version of sahih bukhari, probably 4-5 people would be narrating the same hadith. and most of narrators are men, apart from Aisha.

 

[جوري]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source.

go ahead show me where it says that in the Quran, since that is where you first mentioned was your source and all the evidence that we refuse to admit to!

He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9) I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this.

So exactly what is your point with this? was Mary not an open Channel? if we are to go by your logic, the only explanation would be there is no such thing as a virgin birth! That is what a miracle is by definition " an extremely outstanding or unusual event, thing, or accomplishment"-- each messenger had a gift, Joseph had the gift of dreams, Solomon had power unsurpassed, Jesus had the gift to heal, prophet Mohammed PBUH had the gift of words, what is your point?

I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source.

really do tell.. I think thee is wisdom in Jews by the same token not believing that there is such a thing as a "miracle birth"

No offense intended

None taken, I am not sure where what you wish to instigate an offense by or what emotion your hoping to evoke with this none sense?

but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source

.
oh why is that? the same as we should have doubted Mary's virgin birth?

His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3) She basically was telling him what to believe and encouraging him to continue good works and he would be fine.

So? that was an extraordinary event, undoubtedly the same as the annunciation of Christ by the Angel Gabriel to Mary!

It looks to me that she had some power of influence over the way he viewed his first revelation.

Ahahaha, under what psychological assessment do you make this point? were you there?

This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men

There is nothing in Islam to state that we are intellectually inferior we are given highest status amongst all women. Let's contrast to the bible shall we? have a look at this though from your bible.. think women would get a kick out of it

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.

Is.3:12 As for my people, children are their oppressors, and women rule over them.

1 Cor.11:3 "But I would have you know, that the head of every man is Christ; and the head of the woman is the man; and the head of Christ is God."

1 Cor.14:34-36 "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law. And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church."

Eph.5:22-24 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as unto the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife, even as Christ is the head of the church: and he is the saviour of the body. Therefore as the church is subject unto Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in every thing."

Col.3:18 "Wives, submit yourselves unto your own husbands, as it is fit in the Lord."

1 Tim.2:11-15 "Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection. But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence. For Adam was first formed, then Eve. And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression. Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing

1 Pet.3:1 "Likewise, ye wives, be in subjection to your own husbands."

(I do not believe this to be true)

It is too bad because above in your bible it tells women off, and you appear oh so devoted, I thought you'd be the sort to really get a kick out of subjugating women!

One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control?

Your mention isn't worth jack... Here is the portion that deals with why there needs to be two witnesses of women, said in the most beautiful of words in the noble Quran... certainly nothing along your biblical lines above... BTW for what it is worth, I think it is a far better system than your corrupt one of 12 juries. I can get into that a little later, I don't wish to digress from topic!

يَا أَيُّهَا الَّذِينَ آمَنُواْ إِذَا تَدَايَنتُم بِدَيْنٍ إِلَى أَجَلٍ مُّسَمًّى فَاكْتُبُوهُ وَلْيَكْتُب بَّيْنَكُمْ كَاتِبٌ بِالْعَدْلِ وَلاَ يَأْبَ كَاتِبٌ أَنْ يَكْتُبَ كَمَا عَلَّمَهُ اللّهُ فَلْيَكْتُبْ وَلْيُمْلِلِ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ وَلْيَتَّقِ اللّهَ رَبَّهُ وَلاَ يَبْخَسْ مِنْهُ شَيْئًا فَإن كَانَ الَّذِي عَلَيْهِ الْحَقُّ سَفِيهًا أَوْ ضَعِيفًا أَوْ لاَ يَسْتَطِيعُ أَن يُمِلَّ هُوَ فَلْيُمْلِلْ وَلِيُّهُ بِالْعَدْلِ وَاسْتَشْهِدُواْ شَهِيدَيْنِ من رِّجَالِكُمْ فَإِن لَّمْ يَكُونَا رَجُلَيْنِ فَرَجُلٌ وَامْرَأَتَانِ مِمَّن تَرْضَوْنَ مِنَ الشُّهَدَاء أَن تَضِلَّ إْحْدَاهُمَا فَتُذَكِّرَ إِحْدَاهُمَا الأُخْرَى وَلاَ يَأْبَ الشُّهَدَاء إِذَا مَا دُعُواْ وَلاَ تَسْأَمُوْاْ أَن تَكْتُبُوْهُ صَغِيرًا أَو كَبِيرًا إِلَى أَجَلِهِ ذَلِكُمْ أَقْسَطُ عِندَ اللّهِ وَأَقْومُ لِلشَّهَادَةِ وَأَدْنَى أَلاَّ تَرْتَابُواْ إِلاَّ أَن تَكُونَ تِجَارَةً حَاضِرَةً تُدِيرُونَهَا بَيْنَكُمْ فَلَيْسَ عَلَيْكُمْ جُنَاحٌ أَلاَّ تَكْتُبُوهَا وَأَشْهِدُوْاْ إِذَا تَبَايَعْتُمْ وَلاَ يُضَآرَّ كَاتِبٌ وَلاَ شَهِيدٌ وَإِن تَفْعَلُواْ فَإِنَّهُ فُسُوقٌ بِكُمْ وَاتَّقُواْ اللّهَ وَيُعَلِّمُكُمُ اللّهُ وَاللّهُ بِكُلِّ شَيْءٍ عَلِيمٌ {282}​

[Pickthal 2:282] O ye who believe! When ye contract a debt for a fixed term, record it in writing. Let a scribe record it in writing between you in (terms of) equity. No scribe should refuse to write as Allah hath taught him, so let him write, and let him who incurreth the debt dictate, and let him observe his duty to Allah his Lord, and diminish naught thereof. But if he who oweth the debt is of low understanding, or weak, or unable himself to dictate, then let the guardian of his interests dictate in (terms of) equity. And call to witness, from among your men, two witnesses. And if two men be not (at hand) then a man and two women, of such as ye approve as witnesses, so that if the one erreth (through forgetfulness) the other will remember.

nothing about being a half wit, but does describe the emotional nature of women in very eloquent tongue!

Muhammad doubted his revelation, and since it is on the holiest month on the Islamic calendar

what does that mean? how do you even this to be true? if Ramadan didn't come about until Islam as a whole was established? do you make up stuff as you go along? do you honestly expect us to buy this?

Waraqa told Muhammad they would call him a liar; they will persecute thee; they will banish thee, and they will fight against thee.

Do you even know who waraqa was?
again what is your point? that was the case of the people, they slaughtered their messengers, Ad; Tahmud etc etc before prophet Mohammed PBUH, they were refractory and ungrateful as you are now

It seems like that was enough to stop the prophet from doubting his revelation.

lol, I know that is your wish, But Allah motim noorih wlaw karha alakeroon!

It is written in many reliable documents that Muhammad doubted the source of his revelations as well,

Mecamylamine is making a come back for this sort of tick...are you going to repeat yourself every two sentences? what sort of Aphasia is this?

and it seems like the only ones that deny this are Muslims.

deny what exactly?

No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation;

you might as well be the author of the bible, it means nothing to me all the adding and subtracting, I believe Abraham the father of all monotheism had a lot of doubt, he even asked G-D to prove to him he can raise the dead, G-D asked him, do you not believe, he said-- yes, but so my heart would be at peace! so what do you know, I can name many examples. But don't want to take an effort to respond to you, since you never learn! or even want to learn! You are very insincere.

they may have wonder how God was going to bring a thing to pass.

again I am not sure what you mean by this?

I don’t think it is fair of you to attack my person when the purpose of this post is comparative religion.

I attack you because you seem to want to impress upon us how under educated you are, with the same rhetoric in every post. we are not buying!

Moreover, we have been discussing the reliability between The Bible and the Qur’an.

ok

I think this documentation is important in determining spiritual validity between the two Books and consistent with determining where the lie lies.

I think it is visible to the naked eye where the "lies lie"

We Christians and you Muslims both believe the other is wrong.

we believe you to be misguided (those who have gone astray!)

Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS?[/QUOTE]
lol..you are just comical now. You want to take me on, do some real research like Dr. Gary miller, and then come have a real dialogue!

We can attack the belief, but we shouldn't attack the believer as you have done with me.

Ok deal. I believe you to be a pagan no different than someone who would worship Zeus and believe Hercules was his son.. just substitute G-D the father, Jesus, and hear for Mary or whatever mortal woman he was with, and you are all set.

peace

And to you!

You are loved

I know I am loved!
in closure please state your purpose here, if you think you are going to bring anyone back to the "light", then let me be the first to let you know how delusional you are-- you'll have better luck converting us to Jews than to Christians! At least we won't have to devolve into mythology with Judaism.

 

[Woodrow]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS? We can attack the belief, but we shouldn’t attack the believer as you have done with me.
peace
You are loved

I'm going to attempt to reduce this into managable segments and respond to each as best as I can.

The first revelation shows he was not sure it was from God or some other spiritual source. He admits that he is just basically an open channel. I repeat he is not sure who is working through him. He says: "I am not an innovation among messengers, nor do I know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear" (surah 46:9)

I fail to see where that statement is any indication of doubt. Especially when taken in it's entirety.

46: 1. Ha Mim. P Y C
46: 2. The revelation of the Book is from Allah, the Mighty, the Wise. P Y C
46: 3. We did not create the heavens and the earth and what is between them two save with truth and (for) an appointed term; and those who disbelieve turn aside from what they are warned of. P Y C

46: 4. Say: Have you considered what you call upon besides Allah? Show me what they have created of the earth, or have they a share in the heavens? Bring me a book before this or traces of knowledge, if you are truthful. P Y C
46: 5. And who is in greater error than he who calls besides Allah upon those that will not answer him till the day of resurrection and they are heedless of their call? P Y C

46: 6. And when men are gathered together they shall be their enemies, and shall be deniers of their worshipping (them). P Y
46: 7. And when Our clear communications are recited to them, those who disbelieve say with regard to the truth when it comes to them: This is clear magic. P Y C
46: 8. Nay! they say: He has forged it. Say: If I have forged it, you do not control anything for me from Allah; He knows best what you utter concerning it; He is enough as a witness between me and you, and He is the Forgiving, the Merciful. P Y C

46: 9. Say: I am not the first of the messengers, and I do not know what will be done with me or with you: I do not follow anything but that which is revealed to me, and I am nothing but a plain warner. P Y C
46:10. Say: Have you considered if it is from Allah, and you disbelieve in it, and a witness from among the children of Israel has borne witness of one like it, so he believed, while you are big with pride; surely Allah does not guide the unjust people. P Y C

46:11. And those who disbelieve say concerning those who believe: If it had been a good, they would not have gone ahead of us therein. And as they do not seek to be rightly directed thereby, they say: It is an old lie. P
Y C
46:12. And before it the Book of Musa was a guide and a mercy: and this is a Book verifying (it) in the Arabic language that it may warn those who are unjust and as good news for the doers of good. P Y C

46:13. Surely those who say, Our Lord is Allah, then they continue on the right way, they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. P Y C
46:14. These are the dwellers of the garden, abiding therein: a reward for what they did. P Y
46:15. And We have enjoined on man doing of good to his parents; with trouble did his mother bear him and with trouble did she bring him forth; and the bearing of him and the weaning of him was thirty months; until when he attains his maturity and reaches forty years, he says: My Lord! grant me that I may give thanks for Thy favor which Thou hast bestowed on me and on my parents, and that I may do good which pleases Thee and do good to me in respect of my offspring; surely I turn to Thee, and surely I am of those who submit. P Y C

46:16. These are they from whom We accept the best of what they have done and pass over their evil deeds, among the dwellers of the garden; the promise of truth which they were promised. P Y C
46:17. And he who says to his parents: Fie on you! do you threaten me that I shall be brought forth when generations have already passed away before me? And they both call for Allah's aid: Woe to you! believe, surely the promise of Allah is true. But he says: This is nothing but stories of the ancients. P Y C

46:18. These are they against whom the word has proved true among nations of the jinn and the men that have already passed away before them; surely they are losers. P Y C
46:19. And for all are degrees according to what they did, and that He may pay them back fully their deeds and they shall not be wronged. P Y C
46:20. And on the day when those who disbelieve shall be brought before the fire: You did away with your good things in your life of the world and you enjoyed them for a while, so today you shall be rewarded with the punishment of abasement because you were unjustly proud in the land and because you transgressed. P Y C

46:21. And mention the brother of Ad; when he warned his people in the sandy plains,-- and indeed warners came before him and after him-- saying Serve none but Allah; surely I fear for you the punishment of a grievous day. P Y C
46:22. They said: Have you come to us to turn us away from our gods; then bring us what you threaten us with, if you are of the truthful ones. P Y C

46:23. He said: The knowledge is only with Allah, and I deliver to you the message with which I am sent, but I see you are a people who are ignorant. P Y C
46:24. So when they saw it as a cloud appearing in the sky advancing towards their valleys, they said: This is a cloud which will give us rain. Nay! it is what you sought to hasten on, a blast of wind in which is a painful punishment, P Y C

46:25. Destroying everything by the command of its Lord, so they became such that naught could be seen except their dwellings. Thus do We reward the guilty people. P Y C
46:26. And certainly We had established them in what We have not established you in, and We had given-- them ears and eyes and hearts, but neither their ears, nor their eyes, nor their hearts availed them aught, since they denied the communications of Allah, and that which they mocked encompassed them. P Y C

46:27. And certainly We destroyed the towns which are around you, and We repeat the communications that they might turn. P Y C
46:28. Why did not then those help them whom they took for gods besides Allah to draw (them) nigh (to Him)? Nay! they were lost to them; and this was their lie and what they forged. P Y C
46:29. And when We turned towards you a party of the jinn who listened to the Quran; so when they came to it, they said: Be silent; then when it was finished, they turned back to their people warning (them). P Y C

46:30. They said: O our people! we have listened to a Book revealed after Musa verifying that which is before it, guiding to the truth and to a right path: P Y
46:31. O our people! accept the Divine caller and believe in Him, He will forgive you of your faults and protect you from a painful punishment. P Y C
46:32. And whoever does not accept the-Divine caller, he shall not escape in the earth and he shall not have guardians besides Him, these are in manifest error. P Y C

46:33. Have they not considered that Allah, Who created the heavens and the earth and was not tired by their creation, is able to give life to the dead? Aye! He has surely power over all things. P Y C
46:34. And on the day when those who disbelieve shall be brought before the fire: Is it not true? They shall say: Aye! by our Lord! He will say: Then taste the punishment, because you disbelieved. P Y C

46:35. Therefore bear up patiently as did the messengers endowed with constancy bear up with patience and do not seek to hasten for them (their doom). On the day that they shall see what they are promised they shall be as if they had not tarried save an hour of the day. A sufficient exposition! Shall then any be destroyed save the transgressing people? P Y C

Shakir's Quran Translation

That is what Allah(swt) has told Muhammad(PBUH) to reply when any one asks who he is. Astagfirulla

I don't think anything bad about the prophet for this. I think his concerns were wise ones. He was afraid of his revelation source. No offense intended, but I think he had very good cause to doubt the source. His heart beat severally he went to Khadija saying: "Cover me, cover me!" After being covered his fears subsided and he said "I fear something may happen to me." She replied, "Never! By Allah..." (hadith1.1.3)

Dosen't it makes sense that a person would initially feel fear if God(swt) began speaking to them through an Angel. Would they not have doubt and want to be certain that they are not hearing things? If you look through the Bible you will notice that the Prophet who were spoken too all initially had doubts and showed great fear. Even Mary did not initially seem to be very happy to hear the words of Gabriel. Now also remember the Ahadith are not the words of Allah(swt) these are eye witness accounts as to what Muhammad did and/or said. this simply verifies to us that Muhammad(PBUH) saw and/or heard something that was not a routine daily occurrence.

Volumn 001, Book 001, Hadith Number 003.
-----------------------------------------
Narated By 'Aisha : (The mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read."

The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones."

Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while.

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran):

'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."

I have difficulty in why you feel that makes for doubt in the Qur'an. I see it as verification the eyewitnesses saw something out of the abnormal happen and that this was the begining of the revelations to Muhammad(PBUH)

This is the irony, Islamic theology appears to assert that woman are intellectually inferior to men (I do not believe this to be true) One hadith explains, "The Prophet said, 'Isn't the witness of a woman equal to half that of a man?' The women said, 'Yes,' He said, 'This is because of the deficiency of a woman's mind'" As I had mentioned, it was Khadija that confirms his revelation. That makes me wonder, who was in control? Muhammad doubted his revelation, and since it is on the holiest month on the Islamic calendar,

I honestly can not see any relevance about anything. At that given time Ramadam had yet to be considered a Holy month. It took on that status as it was the Month the Qur'an was first revealed to Muhammad(PBUH)

It seems like that was enough to stop the prophet from doubting his revelation. It is written in many reliable documents that Muhammad doubted the source of his revelations as well, and it seems like the only ones that deny this are Muslims.

Since we read it in the Ahadith, what makes you think we deny it?

No prophet in the Bible ever doubted the source of revelation; they may have wonder how God was going to bring a thing to pass.

I believe if you look closely at every Prophet, they initially showed much doubt and fear as to what was happening.

Why do you insult me when I AM SINCERELY TRYING TO GET YOU TO SEE THE ERROR OF YOUR WAYS JUST AS YOU ARE DOING AMONG CHRISTIANS? We can attack the belief, but we shouldn’t attack the believer as you have done with me.

I have a feeling that comment is not very conducive to get your point across.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?



Salaam/ peace ;

... now I feel I need your permission to prove to you the valid source

u don't need my permission to do anything......i m not the moderator here.


U may discuss about Islam here .


Things in Islam I am curious about...


http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/37118-things-islam-i-am-curious-about-39.html

I am truly sorry to have offended you.

ok , thanks .......pl. correct me if hurt anyone's feelings unwillingly.


All i can request u to judge a matter regarding holy books.

Man made laws , belief , opinions change from time to time.... laws of God's final & last will remain unchanged till the Last Day.

What u dislike about Islam , pl justify that by quoting verses from Bible so that i can understand ...ya , he has his point to dislike it.

So , give me verse from Bible that says early marriage is a sin. A 9 yrs. old girl ( after her puberty ) can not get married even if her parent & the bride give consent.


verses of the Day :


Say, ‘Do you argue with us about God when He is our Lord and your Lord? We have our actions and you have your actions.


We act for Him alone.’


(Qur’an 2: 139)


Do not imagine that God will break His promise to His Messengers. God is Almighty, Exactor of Revenge.


(Qur’an 14:47)