"Views on Atonement for Sin."

[vpb]

The muslim's duty is to tell u the message, now wether u accept it or not, that has nothing to do with us. wether by citing you Qur'anic verses or hadiths your beliefs get stronger, or not I totally don't care. We as muslims believe that we can't guide people, it is only Allah az who guides people, , for those who reject the message, Allah either increases their stubborn against Islam, or brings them toward Islam. we might just deliver the message, and wether Allah az wants to guide you or not, that is Allah's decision. inshaAllah we have completed our duty upon you guys so we don't have to answer in front of Allah az on the day of judgmenet "why didn't u tell the people about the message".

so guys, this forum is to teach people about Islam, in case you have anything to ask concerning Islam, we are here to provide you with the guidelines.

I'm glad that we had such a long discussion, which started being a pain , but it was great to discuss with you.

 

[Grace Seeker]

The muslim's duty is to tell u the message, now wether u accept it or not, that has nothing to do with us. wether by citing you Qur'anic verses or hadiths your beliefs get stronger, or not I totally don't care. We as muslims believe that we can't guide people, it is only Allah az who guides people, , for those who reject the message, Allah either increases their stubborn against Islam, or brings them toward Islam. we might just deliver the message, and wether Allah az wants to guide you or not, that is Allah's decision. inshaAllah we have completed our duty upon you guys so we don't have to answer in front of Allah az on the day of judgmenet "why didn't u tell the people about the message".

This would be perhaps good to discuss more in a thread "What are the Responsibilities of a Believer with Regards to an Unbeliever?".

so guys, this forum is to teach people about Islam, in case you have anything to ask concerning Islam, we are here to provide you with the guidelines.

That is indeed the purpose of the forum as a whole. That was one of the primary reasons I came here, and I have certainly used it that way. But I have stayed because it seems that there are many questions that Muslims have about Christianity as well. (Plus a few misconceptions as well.) I find these things fill the majority of this particular board on the forum. And that seems appropriate for a board entitled "Comparative Religion". We should be able to compare beliefs here without having any ideology rammed down another's throat. I expect that in the "Discover Islam" section, but not this section of the forum.

Rather, I hope we can address questions, concepts, and misconceptions in productive openly engaging, but not condemnatory nor proselytizing ways.

 

[vpb]

We should be able to compare beliefs here without having any ideology rammed down another's throat.

Even if I want to do that I can't. I can't force my belief into u.

" Verily, you will not guide everyone whom you love, but Allah guides whom He wills and He knows best those who Will guided" (Qur'an 28:56)

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Originally Posted by MustafaMc
You don't understand, because your frame of reference, is different from ours. Every Muslim holds the Quran as the literal Word of Allah. The Quran is unambiguous and clear that calling Jesus the Son of God is disbelief in the Oneness of Allah and that it is putting partners with Allah. According to the Quran this is the unforgivable sin if one dies in that state without repenting.

There is no question whatsoever that Jesus and Allah are distinct. For example, Jesus prayed to Allah in Gethsemane and Jesus sits at the right hand of Allah (brought near to Allah).

(added my statement)

And here is an example of something that is not true from a Christian persepctive:
This is true only from a Muslim perspective, but not Christian.
From a Christian perspective there is no question that Jesus and the Father are distinct. We affirm that the Father is NOT the Son and the Son is NOT the Father. They are two different people.

Sounds like you just contradicted yourself.

But we do not affirm that either is distinct from God. In so much as Allah is the Arabic word for God, I find that Muslims have little problem saying that when we Christians speak of the Father that we are speaking of Allah. Yet, what a strange thought that this is not considered blasphemous or adding partners to God.

A clear distimction is that the "Father" is who Jesus prayed to and gave credit for his miracles. To Muslims, we pray to the same "entity" or "being" that Jesus prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane. I see absolutely no partnership in this case.

For the Father is no more and no less God than either the Son or the Holy Spirit. If Jesus is distinct from Allah, then so is the Father distinct from Allah. We Christians do not claim that Jesus is all there is to God, we do not claim that the Father is all there is to God, and we do not claim that Jesus and the Father are identical.

This clearly illustrates that we have a different concept of God. So, yes, in this sense Muslims and Christians worship a different God. Muslims worship the One God; whereas, Christians worship a God - expressed as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

What we claim that the Father and the Son (along with the Holy Spirit) though separate persons are one in essence, one individual (even though three personas are manifested), and that this being that they are in unity is God.

So the Father and God are not distinct. Nor are Jesus and God distinct. Nor are the Spirit and God distinct. But the Father and the Son and the Spirit are each distinct from the other while being at the same time one.


Now, to Islamic ears that has to sound like blasphemy. So, rather than going their immediately, lets look at the definition of blasphemy provided -- the act of claiming the attributes of deity. Yet, you do not call it blasphemy when Allah claims the attritubes of deity. Why not? Because it is not blasphemous for God to claims the attributes of diety. Thus, if it could be shown that Jesus truly was God, it would not be blasphemous.

Yes, in that sense that would be true, but consider an analogy: if a color blind person could prove to a normal visioned person that a green balloon and a red one are really identically the same color, then, yes, I could agree that green is not green at all but it is also really red just like red is.

For now, I will leave this as a BIG "IF". But will you admit that if it could be shown that Jesus truly was God, then it would not be blasphemous for him to claim the attributes of diety?

If that was the case, you would be correct.

Please do not say that you know it is not true, or that the Qur'an says that saying it were true is shirk. I understand these things. So I am not asking you to admit its truth. I am just posing it as a hypothetical...IF a person could be shown to truly be God, would it still be blasphemous to ascribe to him attributes of diety?

No, in that case it would not be blasphemy, but the green balloon is still green and the red one is still red.

 

[ummzayd]

One of the complaints about Christianity is that it isn't just. Granted most of us recognize that God has a beef with humanity in regard to sin(s). But for that to be set right by another being (even if it is God himself) sacrifice himself as an atonement for the first being's sins goes against our normal human concepts with regard to justice.

In one sense I admit that it isn't just, at least not human justice. My argument usually is that God's ways are above our ways and his ways are beyond our understanding. So, God's justice is not going to look like mankind's justice. In the Christian understanding of the atonement, it is God's demand for justice (a penalty for sin) that is satisfied by Christ's self-sacrifice as vicarious payment for humanity's sin. To which all outside of Christianity argue, "but that's not fair". And you are right, it has nothing to do with fairness. Fairness and justice would be humanity going to hell for our sins, but God steps into our lives to thwart that end.

So, why do we call it justice? Well, there is another definition of justice that maybe it would be helpful to look at: Given that what happens in Jesus' sacrificial atonement is that human kind's original, but now broken, relationship with God is restored, then perhaps we can understand the Cross to fit this understanding of justice.


(Of course, this assumes that there actually is a broken relationship between God and human kind to begin with, and that vicarious offerings might have efficacy. But these are apriori assumptions in the Christian faith experience.)

I'm afraid this is one area where you will never get a Muslim to concur. According to our beliefs, God has given us the free will to choose whether or not to commit evil, but also the critierion by which to judge what is right and what is wrong. Justice is Justice.

It seems to me meaningless to say 'well this is manifestly unjust but only for humans, God has a different standard of justice which we cannot comprehend'. That is another way of saying 'This action of God is unjust'. the logical conclusion to that is 'God is unjust'.

If anyone on earth were to apply your idea of God's justice to a situation, it would certainly be seen as an outrage, an enormity. But God, perfect God, God who is Most High and who is known as The Just, expects us to believe in His injustice as a 'Good Thing'.

The Islamic point of view is expressed perfectly in Ezekial chapter 18. Please read it and consider whether this passage conforms with the Christian beliefs of inherited sin and atonement by the blood of the christ. God is declaring, through the prophet Ezekial, what justice is. I wonder at which point He changed His Mind?

"Suppose there is a righteous man who does what is just and right. He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. he does not defile his neighbour's wife or lie with a woman during her period.
He does not oppress anyone, but returns what he took in pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery, but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked.
He does not lend at usury or take interest. He withholds his hand from doing wrong judges fairly between between man and man.
He follows My decrees and faithfully keeps My laws. That man is righteous, he will surely live, declares the sovereign lord.
Suppose he has a violent son, who sheds blood or does any of these other things (though the father has done none of them). He eats at the mountain shrines. he defiles his neighbour's wife. He oppresses the poor and needy. He commits robbery. He does not return what he took in pledge. He looks to the idols. He does detestable things.
He lends at usury and takes interest.
Will such a man live? He will not! because he has done all these detestable things he will surely be put to death and his blood will be on his own head.
But suppose this son has a son who sees all the sins his father commits, and though he sees them, he does not do such things.
He does not eat at the mountain shrines or look to the idols of the house of Israel. he does not defile his neighbour's wife.
He does not oppress anyone or require a pledge for a loan. He does not commit robbery, but gives his food to the hungry and provides clothing for the naked.
He withholds his hand from sin and takes no usury or interest. He keeps my laws and follows my decrees.
He will not die for his father's sin, he will surely live.
But his father will die for his own sin, because he practised extortion, robbed his brother and did what was wrong among his people.
Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father? Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live.
The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the fater share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live, he will not die.
None of the offences he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the things he has done, he will live.
Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign Lord. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn away from their ways and live.
But if a righteous man turns away from his righteousness and commits sin and does the same detestable things the wicked man does, will he live? None of the righteous things he has done will be remembered. Because of the unfaithfulness he is guilty of and because of the sins he has committed, he will die.

YET YOU SAY, 'THE WAY OF THE LORD IS NOT JUST.' HEAR, O HOUSE OF ISRAEL: IS MY WAY UNJUST? IS IT NOT YOUR WAYS THAT ARE UNJUST?"

Now (ok this is me now), I can hear the christian bursting to 'explain', about the New Covenant, about the marvellous plan of God for how the miserable sinner can live after all and not die for his own sins - because of the sacrifice etc. etc.

Well go ahead. but don't call it justice. It's not human justice and, from the above, we can see that it is not God's idea of justice either according to their own scriptures.

peace

 

[MustafaMc]

I'm afraid this is one area where you will never get a Muslim to concur. According to our beliefs, God has given us the free will to choose whether or not to commit evil, but also the critierion by which to judge what is right and what is wrong. Justice is Justice.

...

The Islamic point of view is expressed perfectly in Ezekial chapter 18. Please read it and consider whether this passage conforms with the Christian beliefs of inherited sin and atonement by the blood of the christ. God is declaring, through the prophet Ezekial, what justice is. I wonder at which point He changed His Mind?

....

Now (ok this is me now), I can hear the christian bursting to 'explain', about the New Covenant, about the marvellous plan of God for how the miserable sinner can live after all and not die for his own sins - because of the sacrifice etc. etc.

Well go ahead. but don't call it justice. It's not human justice and, from the above, we can see that it is not God's idea of justice either according to their own scriptures.

Glory to Allah! Brother, this is an amazing post. The concept of justice and Oneness of God from the OT is most similar to what we believe through the Quran.

 

[ummzayd]

I also wanted to put the Islamic point of view, which refutes the Christian claim that God cannot 'forgive' or 'wipe out our sins' or enter us 'miserable sinners' into paradise without the (manifestly unjust) sacrifice of the Christ.

""(Allah) will expel out of you
all the evil in you
and admit you to a gate
of great honour". (qur'an 4:31)

peace

 

[ummzayd]

Glory to Allah! Brother, this is an amazing post. The concept of justice and Oneness of God from the OT is most similar to what we believe through the Quran.

subhan'Allah the refutations against the 'people of the book' are contained within their own scripture, all praise belongs to Allah ta'ala.

(btw alhamdulillah I'm a sister - ummzayd = mother of zayd).

 

[glo]

I also wanted to put the Islamic point of view, which refutes the Christian claim that God cannot 'forgive' or 'wipe out our sins' or enter us 'miserable sinners' into paradise without the (manifestly unjust) sacrifice of the Christ.

""(Allah) will expel out of you
all the evil in you
and admit you to a gate
of great honour". (qur'an 4:31)

peace

Greetings, sister

For clarification, are you saying that according to Islamic teachings Allah cannot forgive sins, even if the one who has committed the sin is repentent and asking for forgiveness?

This is really puzzling me, because in the last year here in LI I have been led to believe that Muslims do ask Allah for forgiveness for their sins, and that Allah does grant it ...

In my mind the concept of God forgiving our sins and the concept of atonement are two separate things.
I will try to put my own view of atonement for our sins and Jesus' role in it across in this thread ... but I will need more time for it than I have at the moment.

Peace

 

[NoName55]

Originally Posted by ummzayd
I also wanted to put the Islamic point of view, which refutes the Christian claim that God cannot 'forgive' or 'wipe out our sins' or enter us 'miserable sinners' into paradise without the (manifestly unjust) sacrifice of the Christ.

""(Allah) will expel out of you
all the evil in you
and admit you to a gate
of great honour". (qur'an 4:31)

peace

Greetings, sister

For clarification, are you saying that according to Islamic teachings Allah cannot forgive sins, even if the one who has committed the sin is repentent and asking for forgiveness?

This is really puzzling me, because in the last year here in LI I have been led to believe that Muslims do ask Allah for forgiveness for their sins, and that Allah does grant it ...

In my mind the concept of God forgiving our sins and the concept of atonement are two separate things.
I will try to put my own view of atonement for our sins and Jesus' role in it across in this thread ... but I will need more time for it than I have at the moment.

Peace

how did you come to that conclusion from Sister's Post?

Looks like distortion of her post to silly ole me!

 

[glo]

how did you come to that conclusion from Sister's Post?

Looks like distortion of her post to silly ole me!

I re-read post 223 again, and to my shame have to admit that I completely misread it ... and I feel a right fool for it! It wasn't so much distortion, but perhaps a case of 'selective reading' ...
Sorry, ummzayd, that was not intentional! :-[

And thanks, NoName, for bringing it to my attention.

Anyway, I am glad to hear that Muslims do believe in God's forgiveness for our sins! :statisfie
Now we are clear on the forgiveness, it still leaves us with the issue of atonement ...

Peace

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

And now, somehow you and I are discussiing the Trinity in a thread on the atonement. hhahaha

Poor Woodrow. Will he have to move some posts back to their original thread?

(added my statement)
Sounds like you just contradicted yourself.

A clear distimction is that the "Father" is who Jesus prayed to and gave credit for his miracles. To Muslims, we pray to the same "entity" or "being" that Jesus prayed to in the Garden of Gethsemane. I see absolutely no partnership in this case.

Where do you see that I contradicted myself? Is it within the single posts, or do you mean this post with previous posts?


I said that I agree that there is a distinction between Jesus and the Father. But, I disagree with what many Muslims do when they equate the Father with Allah. I equate God with Allah, not the Father with Allah. To speak of the Father is not to speak of the fullness of God's revelation of himself. Just like to speak of Jesus is not to speak of the fullness of God's revelation of himself. Where I could see how one might think I am contradicting myself is that I also affirm that the scriptures say that the fullness of God dwelled in Jesus. I do think that is true. It did dwell in him; he was fully God just as the Father is fully God. But, getting a little bit modal in my conversation (always a dangerous thing, so don't take it too far), while the full nature of God is fully present in each person (Father, Son, Spirit) God is only fully manifested in their combined manifestaion, not each one singularly.

So, when Muslims pray to the same person that Jesus prayed to in the garden, we Christians say "Amen!" to that. Muslims pray to God; yes, even the very same God that we do. But if Muslims only know God as Father, then from a Christian perspective, Muslims don't understand the fullness of God. They only know one of his persona, and not his whole being.

If I was to use an analogy, it is as if Muslims are answering a 3-part question about God. They have done extremely well, on one part of that question, but left the other two parts of the question incomplete. It's not so much that they are wrong. Their answer is in many ways true, but it just doesn't go far enough. (Of course, I anticipate the Muslim response is that Christians have gone too far in answering the question. So far that our answer is actually wrong.)

This clearly illustrates that we have a different concept of God. So, yes, in this sense Muslims and Christians worship a different God. Muslims worship the One God; whereas, Christians worship a God - expressed as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

I find it intersting that you choose to use the singular article "a" in speaking of the Christian concept of God. The article "a" can only be used when referencing one not many. If that was intentional, then I think you've got it. That is exactly what we mean.

 

[Redeemed]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

And now, somehow you and I are discussiing the Trinity in a thread on the atonement. hhahaha

Poor Woodrow. Will he have to move some posts back to their original thread?





Where do you see that I contradicted myself? Is it within the single posts, or do you mean this post with previous posts?


I said that I agree that there is a distinction between Jesus and the Father. But, I disagree with what many Muslims do when they equate the Father with Allah. I equate God with Allah, not the Father with Allah. To speak of the Father is not to speak of the fullness of God's revelation of himself. Just like to speak of Jesus is not to speak of the fullness of God's revelation of himself. Where I could see how one might think I am contradicting myself is that I also affirm that the scriptures say that the fullness of God dwelled in Jesus. I do think that is true. It did dwell in him; he was fully God just as the Father is fully God. But, getting a little bit modal in my conversation (always a dangerous thing, so don't take it too far), while the full nature of God is fully present in each person (Father, Son, Spirit) God is only fully manifested in their combined manifestaion, not each one singularly.

So, when Muslims pray to the same person that Jesus prayed to in the garden, we Christians say "Amen!" to that. Muslims pray to God; yes, even the very same God that we do. But if Muslims only know God as Father, then from a Christian perspective, Muslims don't understand the fullness of God. They only know one of his persona, and not his whole being.

If I was to use an analogy, it is as if Muslims are answering a 3-part question about God. They have done extremely well, on one part of that question, but left the other two parts of the question incomplete. It's not so much that they are wrong. Their answer is in many ways true, but it just doesn't go far enough. (Of course, I anticipate the Muslim response is that Christians have gone too far in answering the question. So far that our answer is actually wrong.)





I find it intersting that you choose to use the singular article "a" in speaking of the Christian concept of God. The article "a" can only be used when referencing one not many. If that was intentional, then I think you've got it. That is exactly what we mean.

Are sure about that? I never heard a Muslim call Allah Father or refer to Father as Allah. They don't call Him Father, because they don't believe He has a Son.

 

[vpb]

Are sure about that? I never heard a Muslim call Allah Father or refer to Father as Allah. They don't call Him Father, because they don't believe He has a Son.

me either, I haven't heard anyone calling Allah, as 'father'. And there is no such calling in Qur'an or Sunnah.

 

[MustafaMc]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

Where do you see that I contradicted myself? Is it within the single posts, or do you mean this post with previous posts?

It's just that I said that Jesus and Allah (implying the Father) are distinct and you said this was not true from a Christian perspective, but followed by saying Jesus and the Father are distinct. I think I see now that you did not see my implication and that you see Allah as the "full manifestation" of your concept.

I said that I agree that there is a distinction between Jesus and the Father. But, I disagree with what many Muslims do when they equate the Father with Allah. I equate God with Allah, not the Father with Allah. To speak of the Father is not to speak of the fullness of God's revelation of himself. Just like to speak of Jesus is not to speak of the fullness of God's revelation of himself. Where I could see how one might think I am contradicting myself is that I also affirm that the scriptures say that the fullness of God dwelled in Jesus. I do think that is true. It did dwell in him; he was fully God just as the Father is fully God. But, getting a little bit modal in my conversation (always a dangerous thing, so don't take it too far), while the full nature of God is fully present in each person (Father, Son, Spirit) God is only fully manifested in their combined manifestaion, not each one singularly.

So, when Muslims pray to the same person that Jesus prayed to in the garden, we Christians say "Amen!" to that. Muslims pray to God; yes, even the very same God that we do. But if Muslims only know God as Father, then from a Christian perspective, Muslims don't understand the fullness of God. They only know one of his persona, and not his whole being.

If I was to use an analogy, it is as if Muslims are answering a 3-part question about God. They have done extremely well, on one part of that question, but left the other two parts of the question incomplete. It's not so much that they are wrong. Their answer is in many ways true, but it just doesn't go far enough. (Of course, I anticipate the Muslim response is that Christians have gone too far in answering the question. So far that our answer is actually wrong.)

I think I understand your point, but I don't see that we can ever agree with the other without changing our religions - which neither of us show an inclination to do. There is no way that I, or any Muslim, can agree that Jesus was the human manifestation of God (Allah), nor can you, or any "Trinitarian" Christian, ever agree that Jesus was just a prophet, messenger and servant of Allah. However, I do see that we are making some headway towards understanding the other person's point of view.

I find it intersting that you choose to use the singular article "a" in speaking of the Christian concept of God. The article "a" can only be used when referencing one not many. If that was intentional, then I think you've got it. That is exactly what we mean.

Perhaps, I was being sarcastic to make a distinction between the One God that Muslims worship and a "different" concept of God that the Christians worship. This is not to admit however that there is in fact a different God, just to make a conceptual distinction.

Please, forgive me if this "word-play" is confusing or offensive, but perhaps it has been beneficial to understanding.

Peace, my friend.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I think I understand your point, but I don't see that we can ever agree with the other without changing our religions - which neither of us show an inclination to do.

No. Of course not. We have to accept that there are some difference that we cannot change or accept and still keep our original faith. Christianity and Islam ARE different religions.

There is no way that I, or any Muslim, can agree that Jesus was the human manifestation of God (Allah), nor can you, or any "Trinitarian" Christian, ever agree that Jesus was just a prophet, messenger and servant of Allah. However, I do see that we are making some headway towards understanding the other person's point of view.

I see that progress too.

It is hard because even as we try to communicate with one other we are hampered strangely not so much by our different views with regard to God, but by our similar ones. We use much of the same terminology, but behind the many similar words are completely different concepts and it takes time and a willingness to genuinely listen (not just engage in apologetics) to get to a sincere understanding. Thank you for making the investment in growing in that understanding.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Are sure about that? I never heard a Muslim call Allah Father or refer to Father as Allah. They don't call Him Father, because they don't believe He has a Son.

me either, I haven't heard anyone calling Allah, as 'father'. And there is no such calling in Qur'an or Sunnah.

I don't think you two read carefully. I ddin't say that Muslims called Allah "Father". I said that Muslims tend to equate Christian references to "the Father" to their understanding of "Allah".

All you have to do is take a look at the discussion that MustafMc and I are having to see that

Allah (implying the Father)

And vpb, you yourself have said as much:

so basically the father in your bible, is Allah swt, just that you add 'the son', and the 'holy spirit'.

That statement sounds an awful lot like a Muslim referring to the Father as if he is Allah.

 

[Phil12123]

There is no doubt that we have different views on perhaps the two most important theological issues: (1) Who was Jesus (God in the flesh or just a prophet), and (2) Did He die for our sins or not. Or put another way, the Trinity issue and the Atonement issue. Both sides are totally committed their respective views, and I think both sides pretty much understand the other side's teaching on these issues. After lengthy discussions of both, all of us involved in both discussions may be discussed out. I mean, what more can we say? What more need we say? Would that be a fair assessment of the situation?

 

[vpb]

There is no doubt that we have different views on perhaps the two most important theological issues: (1) Who was Jesus (God in the flesh or just a prophet), and (2) Did He die for our sins or not. Or put another way, the Trinity issue and the Atonement issue. Both sides are totally committed their respective views, and I think both sides pretty much understand the other side's teaching on these issues. After lengthy discussions of both, all of us involved in both discussions may be discussed out. I mean, what more can we say? What more need we say? Would that be a fair assessment of the situation?

I agree with you. even when I buy books, I try to avoid huge books, since when people try to go too much on detail, they just deviate from what they started. so i think it's best to stop posting in this thread
:threadclo

 

[Grace Seeker]

I agree with you. even when I buy books, I try to avoid huge books, since when people try to go too much on detail, they just deviate from what they started. so i think it's best to stop posting in this thread

Well, I'm glad that MustafaMc and I continued in the discussion long enough to be able to perhaps understand each other a little better. Like Phil said, we aren't going to agree because we are committeed to what we each believe, but I still think increased understanding is a good thing.

I also expect that even though these threads will eventually die, that when the next "new" thread on either the Trinity or the Atonement is begun, that the same names will dominate the discussion. And probably rehash all the old points, too.