"Views on Atonement for Sin."

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I think that is a very good question. And why butt in on a discussion of "Views on Atonement for Sin" when they don't believe in any of this. All their posts are really off-topic, challenging the very existence of things everyone else takes for granted or by faith. Seems to me they ought to start their own thread and see if they can get anyone to join it, but stay out of this one. They don't really want to learn or understand our faith; they just want to mock it and ridicule it.
Keloti says: "I almost sense an inkling of jealousy in many of the posts made by atheists on this forum. They do not believe in religion and think those that practice their faith are ignorant and foolish, yet they are members of a Muslim forum. The question in mind is why? It doesn't seem to revolve around interest in any particlular faith."

I think this atheist is outwardly fighting accountability but inwardly searching. He is a lost soul in need of being found. We should deal with him as such for evangelistic purposes. He may be jealous, but the atheists may not be the only ones. There are others that instead of submitting to God by accepting God’s forgiveness through Christ they go about seeking it through what a prophet tells them instead of seeking and hearing from God for themselves. They would rather make the mistake of someone else by establishing a righteous of their own that is not according to knowledge. They should a least make their own instead which wouldn’t be a mistake if they would only trust and obey Jesus. If they did that, they would have the direct channel to Allah they so desperately want! We have forgiveness for our sin and our names are written in the Lamb's book of life. We are heaven bound and there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. To somebody who doesn't have it and doesn't want it on God's terms they will be more than jealous; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
 
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Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

I bet that in 50 years by these standards you will not have existed.

It not wise to bet when you're Christian. After all, priests prophecised over a hundred times on the end of the world. They were wrong 100% of the time :D

Fundies make me laugh :)
 
All refuted here:

http://www.atheists.org/courthouse/charlotte.html

Here are what the presidents had to say about your lies:

“The greatest achievement ever made in the cause of human progress is the total and final separation of church and state. If we have nothing else to boast of, we could lay claim with justice that the first among the nations we of this country made it an article of organic law that the relations between man and his maker were a private concern, into which other men have no right to intrude. To measure the stride thus made for the Emancipation of the race, we have only to look back over the centuries that have gone before us, and recall the dreadful persecutions in the name of religion that have filled the world.”
(David Dudly Field (1805 - 1894) in describing ‘American Progress in Jurisprudence,’ as quoted in Anson Phelps Stokes, “Church And State In The United States,” Vol. 1., pg. 37)

“The United States have adventured upon a great and noble experiment, which is believed to have been hazarded in the absence of all previous precedent -- that of total separation of church and state. No religious establishment by law exists among us. The conscience is left free from all restraint and each is permitted to worship his maker after his own judgment... Such is the great experiment which we have tried; our system of free government would be imperfect without it.”

(Pres. John Tyler, 10th U.S. President and supporter of state-church separation).

“I believe that in America where the separation of church and state is absolute -- where no Catholic prelate would tell the president (should he be Catholic) how to act, and no Protestant minister would tell his parishioners for whom to vote -- where no church or church school is granted any public funds or political preference -- and where no man is denied public office merely because his religion differs from the president who might appoint him or the people who might elect him.”
(President John F. Kennedy)

“The twin doctrines of separation of church and state and liberty of individual conscience are the marrow of our democracy, if not indeed America's most magnificent contribution to the freeing of Western man.”
(Clinton Rossiter, American historian)

In addition, the New York Supreme Court, in a well known case (Miami Military Institute v. Leff 129 Misc. 481, 220 N.Y.S. 799, 810) said of the principle of religious freedom that “it, ‘has always been regarded by the American people as the very heart of its national life.’ This would be difficult to maintain in a democracy without constitutional separation of church and state.”
(Anson Phelps Stokes, "Church And State In The United States," Vol. 1, p. 34)

Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
-Thomas Jefferson, Notes on Virginia, 1782

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

To talk of immaterial existences is to talk of nothings. To say that the human soul, angels, god, are immaterial, is to say they are nothings, or that there is no god, no angels, no soul. I cannot reason otherwise: but I believe I am supported in my creed of materialism by Locke, Tracy, and Stewart. At what age of the Christian church this heresy of immaterialism, this masked atheism, crept in, I do not know. But heresy it certainly is.
-Thomas Jefferson, letter to John Adams, Aug. 15, 1820

This is excellent too:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u6h2fKZ_p6Y

I'd rather be in the pits of hell with Gandhi than in heaven with a tyrannical, egotistical, sexist, homophobic, genocidal, and evil deity. Then again, Jesus is probably be a thing of the fairytales in the future.

The reason why American is such a great, secular country is this:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y
Why don't you open a new thread on Separation of Church and State. I'll meet you there. You need to dig a little deeper. Separation of Church and state was never a part of the constitution. It is a distortion of what the founders wanted. The 1st adm was designed to keep the state out of the church ands not God out of the state. Does the tem "In God we trust" sound familiar to you?
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

A former Muslim told me the more knowledge you have the less your security you have. He said that even the prophet Muhammad wasn't sure of his salvation. If that is the case, where do you think you stand? Do you know that Allah will save you from you sin on the last day? No, I didn’t think so either. I know I am covered, and I don't have to worry about facing a Christless eternity. I do not commit shirk as you may suppose, because I believe in the true God and Creator of the worlds. The God I know first loved me, and it is His goodness that leads me to repentance. You must love your God in order to be loved back (maybe). We have a sure foundation and there is no devil in hell that can shake it. We have something to offer that no other religion has, and it makes Satan mad. We have the light. According to Islam Allah sent messengers to deliver the word. To the Christian, God sent His Son who is the light of the world and truth. I wouldn’t change shoes with anyone for the whole world. Glory to God in the highest.


About the quantity of knowledge we each have, there are two very important aspects of Shari'ah.

In one part it is illegal to impose upon any person with more knowledge than their mind can truly account for.

In another part, it is equally the law, that if any person acknowledged a fact, and then sought to defy that they knew, or seeks to avoid knowing because they notice that the knowledge bears a burden in Allah: then we are obligated to ensure that such persons are held within the information that they try to escape from.

Of course, each person to the limit of their own capacity to comprehend any knowledge, is how we must regard each individual's knowing.

Have you ever noticed that when a believer recites Qur'an, it is in full flow, and there are no gaps in comprehension of the certain meaning for that person. While when another person is reciting, their capacity to be actively intelligently attuning with what they recite, sort of drops in and out. It is very irritating for a believer, as though they only want to believe in every second or third verse, or even only half of each verse, or half of half of the verses. But in actual fact, we can not rightfully be annoyed, because it is only that their real biological capacity just can not stand for the whole truth.

Each individual can only be judged by that knowledge in which their mind finds meaning.

Yet similarly, when our mind has found meaning, if we then seek not to know, we can be proven to be wrong only for depriving our own mind of the knowledge of our own retribution.

Salam
 
alapiana1 said:
Why don't you open a new thread on Separation of Church and State. I'll meet you there. You need to dig a little deeper. Separation of Church and state was never a part of the constitution. It is a distortion of what the founders wanted. The 1st adm was designed to keep the state out of the church ands not God out of the state. Does the tem "In God we trust" sound familiar to you?

I do not have to dig any deeper. I have posted quotes from the writers of the Constitution, past presidents, and eminent American historians. As a Christian ignorant of history, maybe you should do more research on your own faith and country.

Does the tem "In God we trust" sound familiar to you?

This is why you need to go back to middle school and retake an American history course.

http://www.treas.gov/education/fact-sheets/currency/in-god-we-trust.shtml

The motto IN GOD WE TRUST was placed on United States coins largely because of the increased religious sentiment existing during the Civil War. Secretary of the Treasury Salmon P. Chase received many appeals from devout persons throughout the country, urging that the United States recognize the Deity on United States coins. From Treasury Department records, it appears that the first such appeal came in a letter dated November 13, 1861.

This is decent too:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/In_God_We_Trust#Controversy

This is the reason why Biblical law has long been rejected:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=vkXOwBIRX7Y
 
Yes, and you won't find anything about atonement for sin in the U.S. constitution either. I'm sure the mods would appreciate it if this thread returned to the topic, before somebody is forced to delete a bunch of posts.
 
Re: Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

About the quantity of knowledge we each have, there are two very important aspects of Shari'ah.

In one part it is illegal to impose upon any person with more knowledge than their mind can truly account for.

In another part, it is equally the law, that if any person acknowledged a fact, and then sought to defy that they knew, or seeks to avoid knowing because they notice that the knowledge bears a burden in Allah: then we are obligated to ensure that such persons are held within the information that they try to escape from.

Of course, each person to the limit of their own capacity to comprehend any knowledge, is how we must regard each individual's knowing.

Have you ever noticed that when a believer recites Qur'an, it is in full flow, and there are no gaps in comprehension of the certain meaning for that person. While when another person is reciting, their capacity to be actively intelligently attuning with what they recite, sort of drops in and out. It is very irritating for a believer, as though they only want to believe in every second or third verse, or even only half of each verse, or half of half of the verses. But in actual fact, we can not rightfully be annoyed, because it is only that their real biological capacity just can not stand for the whole truth.

Each individual can only be judged by that knowledge in which their mind finds meaning.

Yet similarly, when our mind has found meaning, if we then seek not to know, we can be proven to be wrong only for depriving our own mind of the knowledge of our own retribution.

Salam
That seems to go along with the Scriptures. It is written "He that does wrong out of ignorance is beaten with few stripes, but he that knows and does wrong will be beaten with many"
Salam
 
Keloti says: "I almost sense an inkling of jealousy in many of the posts made by atheists on this forum. They do not believe in religion and think those that practice their faith are ignorant and foolish, yet they are members of a Muslim forum. The question in mind is why? It doesn't seem to revolve around interest in any particlular faith."

I think this atheist is outwardly fighting accountability but inwardly searching. He is a lost soul in need of being found. We should deal with him as such for evangelistic purposes. He may be jealous, but the atheists may not be the only ones. There are others that instead of submitting to God by accepting God’s forgiveness through Christ they go about seeking it through what a prophet tells them instead of seeking and hearing from God for themselves. They would rather make the mistake of someone else by establishing a righteous of their own that is not according to knowledge. They should a least make their own instead which wouldn’t be a mistake if they would only trust and obey Jesus. If they did that, they would have the direct channel to Allah they so desperately want! We have forgiveness for our sin and our names are written in the Lamb's book of life. We are heaven bound and there is nothing that can separate us from the love of God. To somebody who doesn't have it and doesn't want it on God's terms they will be more than jealous; there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.
Typical - very typical of what we expect from you. You go out of your way to offend people don't you.
 
This country was founded under Christianity. Separation of church and state was never the founding fathers intentions for this country. In fact, It was the first president of the US that said, "Don't claim American patriotism if you ever attempt to remove religion from our institutions." He was referring to Christianity; that means, anyone in this country that wars against Christianity is not a true American. The only way you can get forgiveness for your sin is through Jesus. Without him, you will die in your sins. It is not my job to prove this to anyone. Jesus didn't try to prove anything to any one. He just is, and without faith, it is impossible to please God.

you are ignorant as well as arrogant! :enough!:
as a non-christian, i am every bit as american as you or anyone else of any religion or no religion at all. :raging:
 
Typical - very typical of what we expect from you. You go out of your way to offend people don't you.
If you expect this of me, then I trust you are not offended. But let me add this. What I share, I share out of love, and I am certainly not looking to win a popularity contest here. Jesus offended many with what he shared. I am looking to share just the truth. And one of our Islam brothers said, "if the truth be bitter let it be." I say, if the truth hurts, let it hurt, because "faithful are the wounds of a friend," the Bible states, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Jesus said, "A man's foes will be they of their own house." Let me apolgize about implying that Muslims don't want it on God's terms. I shouldn't say that. That was a judgment call. What I should have said was, they aren't going about it on God's terms but desire to or think they are.
you are loved
 
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There are others that instead of submitting to God by accepting God’s forgiveness through Christ they go about seeking it through what a prophet tells them instead of seeking and hearing from God for themselves.
I am sorry but Allah swt has already warned us about people like you 1400 years ago:

2:120. Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

2:135. They say: "Become Jews or Christians if ye would be guided (To salvation)." Say thou: "Nay! (I would rather) the Religion of Abraham the True, and he joined not gods with Allah."
 
2:120. Never will the Jews or the Christians be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: "The Guidance of Allah,-that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against Allah.

Hmmmm....sounds like this verse, right back at ya. "Never will the Muslims be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: 'The Guidance of God, -that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God." (The New Revised King Phil Version).
 
Can we keep this thread peaceful, please?
It may just be me being a little sensitive, but the tone seems to b getting quite aggressive in places ... :(

My way of life?? It is the burden of the believer to prove the positive. You claim God exists. Now prove it. If you cannot, we must assume God's non-existence. You have as much proof for your "Jesus" as the tooth fairy. It is because of secularists like myself Christianity is so watered down and their is separation between church and state.
Hi Philosopher

Many people in this forum are converts to their beliefs.
Those that are have had a moment in their lives when they came to the conclusion and the conviction that this (whatever it is) was the right religion and the right way of life.

All of us have our personal conclusions and our personal proofs to believe what we believe - just as you do.
Our proofs will not stand up to scientific scrutinty, as well you know ... that's why we call ourselves believers, rather than knowers.

If the existance of God could be proved, it would have been done by now - and we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Perhaps you are one of those atheists who hope that one day we will be able to disprove the existance of God?! Well, we shall have to wait and see ...

May I ask you your opinion, on a very personal level, and without wanting to enter into a debate about it? I would just be interested to hear your thoughts:
How does it make you feel when people believe in God?
I mean, do you take a each-to-their-own-approach, or do you have stronger feelings than that about it?
If so, why?

The reason I am asking is that I know atheists who seem to try their very hardest to take away the joy and peace and hope and love I experience through my faith. Why would anybody want to do that?
This is nothing to do with you, or with anybody else in this forum ... but perhaps by asking you I can glean an answer to my question ...

Peace :)
 
Hmmmm....sounds like this verse, right back at ya. "Never will the Muslims be satisfied with thee unless thou follow their form of religion. Say: 'The Guidance of God, -that is the (only) Guidance." Wert thou to follow their desires after the knowledge which hath reached thee, then wouldst thou find neither Protector nor helper against God." (The New Revised King Phil Version).

The difference is that Br. vpb quoted an actual verse of the Quran; whereas, yours was made up to suit your purposes. Perhaps, you were trying to make a joke, but I see it as a metaphorical example of what we claim the Biblical authors and scribes have done.

Quran 3:78 There are some among them who twist their tongues pretending a quote from their Holy Book; so that you may think that what they read is a part of the Book, whereas, in fact it is not a part of the Book. They also assert, "It is from Allah" whereas, in fact it is not from Allah. Thus they deliberately ascribe a lie to Allah.
 
If you expect this of me, then I trust you are not offended. (wrong) But let me add this. What I share, I share out of love, and I am certainly not looking to win a popularity contest here. Jesus offended many with what he shared. I am looking to share just the truth. And one of our Islam brothers said, "if the truth be bitter let it be." I say, if the truth hurts, let it hurt, because "faithful are the wounds of a friend," the Bible states, but the kisses of an enemy are deceitful. Jesus said, "A man's foes will be they of their own house." Let me apolgize about implying that Muslims don't want it on God's terms. I shouldn't say that. That was a judgment call. What I should have said was, they aren't going about it on God's terms but desire to or think they are.
you are loved
Well, how would you feel if I lumped you in with atheists? At least I concede that you have some sense of faith in Allah - you just out right ascribe partners to Him with your worship of the human, Jesus (pbuh). Every Muslim on this forum will witness that what you preach is FAR from the Truth. I believe that you are sincere in what you say and that you really and truly believe what you write, but you are getting no where with your incessant preaching.
 

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