What does Islam say about wealth and heaven?

[Great I am not]

It is and it used to be that only the Jews were moneylenders, I believe the Talmud allows 10% to be charged before it can be considered usury. I certainly am against usury, but you have alot of people who dont follow the tenents of their religion anymore.

In some cases, this is bad.
In other cases this is good.

Man evolves and so does God. His laws should as well.

Regards
DL

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Gods laws don't need to change, since he knows what is best for His creation, past present and future. Man is NOT God and He cannot be equated with His creation.

 

[Zafran]

Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?

Trading of goods/needed raw materials - property/Inheritence - there are many halal/moral ways to mass wealth but wealth can corrupt peopl sometimes and some people use it for good.

 

[Great I am not]

Gods laws don't need to change, since he knows what is best for His creation, past present and future. Man is NOT God and He cannot be equated with His creation.

Oh my. Are we not created in His mental image?

If not then He is alien to mankind and should not rule over us.
Would you have us follow a Klingon or Farengy?

We are natural animals.

The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
The God of man should be a man, not some alien.

The first God was a man and the last shall be as well.
Who else can give a voice to God?

Regards
DL

 

[Great I am not]

Trading of goods/needed raw materials - property/Inheritence - there are many halal/moral ways to mass wealth but wealth can corrupt peopl sometimes and some people use it for good.

As I stated above and as your first example shows, most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of great wealth immoral in my view.

The property or inheritance you speak of, if more than a certain amount would have been bought with the same exploitation and still immoral to keep.

Jesus was clear about giving to the poor. He did not say give so much and retain a few million for personal needs.

Most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of wealth immoral.

Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?

Regards
DL

 

[Zafran]

Oh my. Are we not created in His mental image?
If not then He is alien to mankind and should not rule over us.
Would you have us follow a Klingon or Farengy?

We are natural animals.

The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
The God of man should be a man, not some alien.

The first God was a man and the last shall be as well.
Who else can give a voice to God?

Regards
DL

salaam
This is a highly anthromophic account - a lot of people have a problem getting out of the anthromophic box. -

Heres a smiple Quranic (translation) of what God is and isnt in Islam.



"1. Say: He is Allah, the One!
2. Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
3. He begetteth not nor was begotten.
4. And there is none comparable unto Him." - surat 112.

The last phrase is a good one to focus on. Talking about "mental images" is anthromophising God.

Peace.

 

[Zafran]

As I stated above and as your first example shows, most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of great wealth immoral in my view.

The property or inheritance you speak of, if more than a certain amount would have been bought with the same exploitation and still immoral to keep.

Jesus was clear about giving to the poor. He did not say give so much and retain a few million for personal needs.

Most wealth is amassed through exploitation of labor and markets.
This makes the accumulation of wealth immoral.

Are there moral ways to amass great wealth and what are they?

Regards
DL

This is preety questionable on how you see morality - if someone can sell products which are needed in society without illiegal means or intrest then that in Islamic terms it is halal - In Islam (fair) trade is moral - intrest isnt. You also call it exploitation of labour - that sounds very marxist - paying fair wages or the market price for the labour based on the laws of supply and demand do not seem like expliotation of labour but fair - as long as the labourer gets his share which the labour is worth.

In Islam there is something called Zakat which is a compulsory charity that people have to pay on the welath they have earned - as long as the wealth is earnt through

1 - legal and fair means
2 - not by intrest
3 - paid Zakat on it

Then "mass wealth" is ok or whatever wealth.

define explioting labour/markets?

 

[Great I am not]

salaam
This is a highly anthromophic account - a lot of people have a problem getting out of the anthromophic box. -

Heres a smiple Quranic (translation) of what God is and isnt in Islam.



"1. Say: He is Allah, the One!
2. Allah, the eternally Besought of all!
3. He begetteth not nor was begotten.
4. And there is none comparable unto Him." - surat 112.

The last phrase is a good one to focus on. Talking about "mental images" is anthromophising God.

Peace.

If none can compare to Him then what give this, with respect, alien God the right to rule men?

Does a lion rule cows? No.
Does a donkey rule dogs? No.

Should one so far from man rule men? No.

The same with the Christian God of mystery and unknowableness. Should one that man cannot understand rule men? No.

How can we know how to follow any God when we do not and cannot know His message with any clarity?

We cannot. Perhaps that is why the world is as screwed up as it is. Because we cannot understand God's message.

Are we animals. Yes. Should we do as all other animals do and follow one of us that we can understand? Yes.

That is exactly how Mohamed probably thought Praise be to Him, If a non Muslim can say so.

If you refute what I say then as far as I am concerned you would have tried to refute Mohamed. God is to be an archetypal goal, not a real entity.

No word has ever been said by God that did not come out of the mouth of a man.

In your case Mohamed.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

 

[Zafran]

If none can compare to Him then what give this, with respect, alien God the right to rule men?

Does a lion rule cows? No.
Does a donkey rule dogs? No.

Should one so far from man rule men? No.

The same with the Christian God of mystery and unknowableness. Should one that man cannot understand rule men? No.

How can we know how to follow any God when we do not and cannot know His message with any clarity?

We cannot. Perhaps that is why the world is as screwed up as it is. Because we cannot understand God's message.

Are we animals. Yes. Should we do as all other animals do and follow one of us that we can understand? Yes.

That is exactly how Mohamed probably thought Praise be to Him, If a non Muslim can say so.

If you refute what I say then as far as I am concerned you would have tried to refute Mohamed. God is to be an archetypal goal, not a real entity.

No word has ever been said by God that did not come out of the mouth of a man.

In your case Mohamed.

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Regards
DL

Nothing is camparable to God because God is far greater then anything on earth - thats from the Quran what Muslims believe in the word of God.

Just because you do know or understand the messge does not mean that other people do not know understand it or know it.

When we talk about God - the higher being we let God dictate the rules - not us. - God is all knowing not the human - God is all wise not the human etc etc.


We are not just animals - we have intellect, counciousness and the ability to communicate at higher levels - Humans are not just animals - animals have the rule of survuival of the fittest - shall we also apply that rule too?

Muhammad pbuh brought the Quran - I'm not sure if you have read it or not or even studied his life?

 

[Great I am not]

This is preety questionable on how you see morality - if someone can sell products which are needed in society without illiegal means or intrest then that in Islamic terms it is halal - In Islam (fair) trade is moral - intrest isnt. You also call it exploitation of labour - that sounds very marxist - paying fair wages or the market price for the labour based on the laws of supply and demand do not seem like expliotation of labour but fair - as long as the labourer gets his share which the labour is worth.

In Islam there is something called Zakat which is a compulsory charity that people have to pay on the welath they have earned - as long as the wealth is earnt through

1 - legal and fair means
2 - not by intrest
3 - paid Zakat on it

Then "mass wealth" is ok or whatever wealth.

define explioting labour/markets?

First. Zakat.

Charity is just that. Something given out of love or desire to help others. It is or should be freely given.
To force people to pay it makes it a tax and not charity as I understand that word.

Exploitation of labor. If a Muslim owns a shop that makes pots. He pays his men 1 dollar a day as a fair wage. Each worker makes 1 pot per day. The owner sells his pots for 2 dollar each.
His fair profit after paying his man is then 1 dollar per day per man because he always sells his pots.
There are 5 of these shop owners doing identical business.

An earthquake hits and destroys 2 shops.

The owners of the 3 shops know that there will be a shortage of pots the next day.

Standard practice in any profitable business is to buy cheep and to sell dear.

Knowing this the 3 owners raise their price because they know that they will sell all they have and more it they had it. They sell the pots for 3 dollars each. They keep the profits.

This is exploitation of labor and at the same time it can be said that they added an interest to their product.

It is legal for them to do what they did but is it fair?

To me making more profit on an investment is interest. To not pay the workers more than normal is to exploit their labor. If they had no middle man, the owner, they would have earned the extra profit.

Make sense to you?

Regards
DL

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Oh my. Are we not created in His mental image?

If not then He is alien to mankind and should not rule over us.
Would you have us follow a Klingon or Farengy?

We are natural animals.

The God of ants is an ant.
The God of lions is a lion.
The God of man should be a man, not some alien.

The first God was a man and the last shall be as well.
Who else can give a voice to God?

Regards
DL

This line of thinking is utter nonsense. Everything God has created is limited to a certain extent. God is not limited to anything, nor anything He has created. Thats why he is God. If God was His creation or anything similar to, how can we deem God to be Unique? This is fallacy in thinking and as Muslims, it doesn't correspond with Islam. At times, science is so caught up on trying to group everything together, then finally they deem us animals. We are not animals. Animals will have no judgement come Judgement day, humans will.


God is the Creator of ants, lions, man and anything else that exists. That doesn't rule out that He is an alien. Even if there was an alien, they still would be creation.

The God of man should be a man, not some alien.

You see that's a serious problem right here. It's not what we think "should" be but what is. Humans always think things should be a certain way but it's not up to us to decide what should be what. One person might say it should be this way, someone else might say no that way. Soon you have like 100 different opinions. What we think is right is not always right. God has legislated how things are or aught to be.

 

[Zafran]

This line of thinking is utter nonsense. Everything God has created is limited to a certain extent. God is not limited to anything, nor anything He has created. Thats why he is God. If God was His creation or anything similar to, how can we deem God to be Unique? This is fallacy in thinking and as Muslims, it doesnt correspond with Islam.


God is the Creator of ants, lions, man and anything else that exists. That doesn't rule out that He is an alien. Even if there was an alien, they still would be creation.



You see that's a serious problem right here. It's not what we think "should" be but what is. Humans always think things should be a certain way but it's not up to us to decide what should be what. One person might say it should be this way, someone else might say no that way. Soon you have like 100 different opinions. What we think is right is not always right. God has legislated how things are or aught to be.

salaam

Good response.
peace

 

[Zafran]

First. Zakat.

Charity is just that. Something given out of love or desire to help others. It is or should be freely given.
To force people to pay it makes it a tax and not charity as I understand that word.

Exploitation of labor. If a Muslim owns a shop that makes pots. He pays his men 1 dollar a day as a fair wage. Each worker makes 1 pot per day. The owner sells his pots for 2 dollar each.
His fair profit after paying his man is then 1 dollar per day per man because he always sells his pots.
There are 5 of these shop owners doing identical business.

An earthquake hits and destroys 2 shops.

The owners of the 3 shops know that there will be a shortage of pots the next day.

Standard practice in any profitable business is to buy cheep and to sell dear.

Knowing this the 3 owners raise their price because they know that they will sell all they have and more it they had it. They sell the pots for 3 dollars each. They keep the profits.

This is exploitation of labor and at the same time it can be said that they added an interest to their product.

It is legal for them to do what they did but is it fair?

To me making more profit on an investment is interest. To not pay the workers more than normal is to exploit their labor. If they had no middle man, the owner, they would have earned the extra profit.

Make sense to you?

Regards
DL

No Zakat is a Duty on the people that have the ability to pay it - it is not a favour - its what the rich OWE the poor. So its not realy like a charity.

Your example doesnt work - if the workers are paid more then before after the prices are risen - thefore making it fairer. The supply of the product would change in the market for pots (after the earthquake) which would also influence the price of labour - the market forces dictate the price and how much the labour costs.
The profit is what the shopkeeper makes (his earnings) and the wages are what the the labourer makes (his earnings) - If the profit increases that is a good thing not a bad thing - the market forces increased his profit which would also have an effect on the labour market anyway.

You also have to take inconsidertaion that there could be rational reasons of why the price has risen
1 - higher taxes
2 - higher cost of raw materials
and other reasons for Inflation in general

The Zakat, not dealing in intrest and paying the worker fairly is the duty of the owner - not beacsue he feels like it.

 

[Great I am not]

Light of Heaven

If God has no limits then why can he not create a sinless man?
If you think that Jesus is divine then you must disqualify him because he did not come from the seed of a man.

Regards
DL

 

[Great I am not]

No Zakat is a Duty on the people that have the ability to pay it - it is not a favour - its what the rich OWE the poor. So its not realy like a charity.

Your example doesnt work - if the workers are paid more then before after the prices are risen - thefore making it fairer. The supply of the product would change in the market for pots (after the earthquake) which would also influence the price of labour - the market forces dictate the price and how much the labour costs.
QUOTE]

Exactly but you notice in my scenario the owner did not pay more and exploited his employees.

Even today, if the price of oil goes up, does the oil worker get more? No. Stockholders do. Exploitation of the worker and the consumer or market.

Regards
DL

 

[Zafran]

Light of Heaven

If God has no limits then why can he not create a sinless man?
If you think that Jesus is divine then you must disqualify him because he did not come from the seed of a man.

Regards
DL

salaam

as muslims we believe all prophets were sinless men......so? Jesus pbuh came from a women - makes him human enough - like Adam and Eve pbuh who didnt have a father or mother.

We muslims do not believe Jesus pbuh is divine - thats what christains believe.

 

[Zafran]

No Zakat is a Duty on the people that have the ability to pay it - it is not a favour - its what the rich OWE the poor. So its not realy like a charity.

Your example doesnt work - if the workers are paid more then before after the prices are risen - thefore making it fairer. The supply of the product would change in the market for pots (after the earthquake) which would also influence the price of labour - the market forces dictate the price and how much the labour costs.
QUOTE]

Exactly but you notice in my scenario the owner did not pay more and exploited his employees.

Even today, if the price of oil goes up, does the oil worker get more? No. Stockholders do. Exploitation of the worker and the consumer or market.

Regards
DL

salaam - yes in purely captilalist market people can be explaioted thats why there are legal laws and governing bodies but does not make trade immoral does it - it depends on what people do - the market forces or the use of labour is not inheriently immoral which you were arguing before - were you not?

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

Light of Heaven

If God has no limits then why can he not create a sinless man?
If you think that Jesus is divine then you must disqualify him because he did not come from the seed of a man.

Regards
DL

If God was to create humankind sinless, there would be no sense in doing good nor seeking forgiveness from God nor turning to Him for help. As Muslims, we believe this life is a test. God has ordained what is wrong and what is right, the question is, are we willing to obey Him? The only people that were sinless were Prophets, yet they were as human as can get. They were the best amongst mankind, chosen by God to convey His message to the likes of us, so that we may be of the successful. God has given us free choice. Whatever we do, we are judged accordingly.

If you think that Jesus is divine then you must disqualify him because he did not come from the seed of a man.

We don't believe Jesus(pbuh) was divine. He(pbuh) was as human as anyone else. He(pbuh) was born the same way we all are, the only exception is it was miraculous birth and he was the best amongst those who walked the earth, the most obedient to God. The only divine Being is God Himself.

 

[Great I am not]

If God was to create humankind sinless, there would be no sense in doing good nor seeking forgiveness from God nor turning to Him for help. As Muslims, we believe this life is a test. God has ordained what is wrong and what is right, the question is, are we willing to obey Him? The only people that were sinless were Prophets, yet they were as human as can get. They were the best amongst mankind, chosen by God to convey His message to the likes of us, so that we may be of the successful. God has given us free choice. Whatever we do, we are judged accordingly.



We don't believe Jesus(pbuh) was divine. He(pbuh) was as human as anyone else. He(pbuh) was born the same way we all are, the only exception is it was miraculous birth and he was the best amongst those who walked the earth, the most obedient to God. The only divine Being is God Himself.

If prophets were sinless then they could not reach heaven if the Bible is to be believed.

2 Peter 3:9 KJ
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.


God wants man to sin.

Yes. Why else would God give us all a sinning nature?

Follow the logic and try to refute it.


God's will is that none be lost.
God's will is that all repent.
For all to repent then all must sin.

If God's will is supreme and cannot be thwarted, then all must sin so that all can repent and not be lost.



Regards
DL

 

[Great I am not]

God has given us free choice. Whatever we do, we are judged accordingly.
QUOTE]

What free choice from God?

My way or burn forever in hell.

That is not free choice it is an ultimatum.

Regards
DL