What happens to Muslims who leave Islam?

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This has been pointed out. However, it has been centuries since someone was forcibly evicted from a majority Christian country just for leaving Christianity.

This only means two things:

1) The christians have abandoned the law as the brother mentioned.

2) No christian ever left christianity during these late centuries.

If it is the first then it does not benefit you as it is abandonment of the law and such the one guilty for such is the one who abandons the law (i.e. christians) not the one who establishes the law (i.e. muslims).

If it is the second, then the christian stand is the same as the muslim stand therefore again there is no transgression by the muslims. Indeed it says in the bible:

"If anyone secretly entices you--even if it is your brother, your father's son or your mother's son, or your own son or daughter, or the wife you embrace, or your most intimate friend--saying, "Let us go worship other gods," whom neither you nor your ancestors have known. . . . Show them no pity or compassion and do not shield them. But you shall surely kill them; your own hand shall be first against them to execute them, and afterwards the hand of all the people. (Deuteronomy 13:6-10)
 
So, what I gleen out of all this is that Islam is not compatable with basic religious freedom because part of religious freedom is the ability to change your beliefs or to decide to believe in nothing. That might be an affront to God, but ultimately only God can really do anything about that. I am now extreemly doubtful of the ability for the Islamic world to coexist with the West.
 
So, what I gleen out of all this is that Islam is not compatable with basic religious freedom because part of religious freedom is the ability to change your beliefs or to decide to believe in nothing. That might be an affront to God, but ultimately only God can really do anything about that. I am now extreemly doubtful of the ability for the Islamic world to coexist with the West.

It perfectly matches christianity in this matter. If the west has nothing in common with Judaism, Christianity and Islam then it is the west that should check it's status not the other way around. After all are not the majority of the west from these religions? Let me ask the question the other way around: Can the west coexist with any religion (Judaism, Christianity and Islam)?
 
So, what I gleen out of all this is that Islam is not compatable with basic religious freedom because part of religious freedom is the ability to change your beliefs or to decide to believe in nothing. That might be an affront to God, but ultimately only God can really do anything about that. I am now extreemly doubtful of the ability for the Islamic world to coexist with the West.


Isn't that saying that i can change my religion because i have 'more authority than God'? That's like saying 'i can throw my scripture behind my back since it doesnt fit in with the society i live in today.' Is that really how a religion should be? When you can give it up just because societies changed? Or do you remain firm upon your morals since you know that society without Divine Guidance is in the times of ignorance, no matter how advanced it may be technologically etc. Because Divine Guidance from God should be for all times, no matter how secular the people are.

If we were to use that logic - then one wouldn't even follow a religion, and they would turn their back on God. Which then leads to the question - what truelly is the purpose of life?
 
Isn't that saying that i can change my religion because i have 'more authority than God'? That's like saying 'i can throw my scripture behind my back since it doesnt fit in with the society i live in today.' Is that really how a religion should be? When you can give it up just because societies changed? Or do you remain firm upon your morals since you know that society without Divine Guidance is in the times of ignorance, no matter how advanced it may be technologically etc. Because Divine Guidance from God should be for all times, no matter how secular the people are.

If we were to use that logic - then one wouldn't even follow a religion, and they would turn their back on God. Which then leads to the question - what truelly is the purpose of life?

Brother. I suppose that if any did such, the answer from Jesus would be as in luke 19:27

27But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me."

Although this is not the very western concept right?
 
Isn't that saying that i can change my religion because i have 'more authority than God'? That's like saying 'i can throw my scripture behind my back since it doesnt fit in with the society i live in today.' Is that really how a religion should be? When you can give it up just because societies changed? Or do you remain firm upon your morals since you know that society without Divine Guidance is in the times of ignorance, no matter how advanced it may be technologically etc. Because Divine Guidance from God should be for all times, no matter how secular the people are.

If we were to use that logic - then one wouldn't even follow a religion, and they would turn their back on God. Which then leads to the question - what truelly is the purpose of life?

I'm not saying that leaving the true religion is OK. If someone stopped being a Christian, I would tell them that they were making the wrong decision. But I would not stop talking to them and I wouldn't want them kicked out of the country.
 
^^No one is saying to kick them out. But if the person is a threat to the country or community and was affecting how you or others thought about the particular faith, would you still want the person to be there?
 
^^No one is saying to kick them out. But if the person is a threat to the country or community and was affecting how you or others thought about the particular faith, would you still want the person to be there?

If they're a threat to the country or community, then it has nothing to do with religion and becomes a public safety issue. However, if all they have are different ideas about religion, then I have no problem with them being there. We need to be strong enough in our faith to encounter different ideas without abandoning God.
 
If they're a threat to the country or community, then it has nothing to do with religion and becomes a public safety issue. However, if all they have are different ideas about religion, then I have no problem with them being there. We need to be strong enough in our faith to encounter different ideas without abandoning God.

True and in an Islamic country an Apostate can be a threat to the country. The degree of punishment inflicted upon the person will be in accordance to how much of a threat they are.

It is very difficult to prove apostasy unless a person is doing some very overt anti-Islamic acts.
 
^^Thats what I meant.

You seem to be missing the point August. Unless the person is a major threat as in bashing Islam or anything else, no harm comes to them.
 
Unless the person is a major threat as in bashing Islam or anything else, no harm comes to them.

How is "bashing Islam" a major threat? I know all kinds of people who bash Christianity that are not threats to anyone.
 
what do you think about someone who is blaspheming the creator ?

will you say thay we should leave him do it because he is not causing any harm to the society !!!!
 
what do you think about someone who is blaspheming the creator ?

will you say thay we should leave him do it because he is not causing any harm to the society !!!!

I disagree with someone who blasphemes the creator, of course. However, I live in a society in which freedom of religion is protected for everyone, including atheists. The US was founded in part by people who came to the new world to flee religious persecution. Also, I was once a very loud atheist. If my Christian family had refused to speak to me or if I had been made to leave my country, I would never have become a Christian myself.
 
Being a traitor to the Unites states Govt. is punishable by death -- do you remember Julius and Ethel Rosenberg ? Well that is just the Untied States "barbaric laws"... So I'd not comment much on the ones decreed by G-D for traitors to religion .

peace!
 
How is an apostate any more of a threat than a non believer who has never believed?
 
How is an apostate any more of a threat than a non believer who has never believed?


Because when the number of Muslims was growing in the Islamic state in Madinah, there were a group of people who wanted to lead others astray, and to make them doubt their religion. So what they would do is pretend to accept Islaam one day, then come back the next day saying that they've left it - this would then weaken the believers who were new to the faith, and it was a good way to spread propaganda.

Therefore a hypocrite is much worse than a non muslim living in an Islamic State, since this person is causing internal conflict compared to a non-muslim who is outwardly staying neutral, or outwardly expressing his/her opposition to Islaam.


And Allaah Almighty knows best.



Regards.
 
How is an apostate any more of a threat than a non believer who has never believed?

How is a citizen selling their home country's secrets a threat, more than commis and American haters else where? it is a breech of allegiance by hypocrites... to betray your country I think is a lesser crime than betraying G-D-- yet here we are-- these are the laws of the lands... and those are the laws of the divine. . ..

Great reply Bros Fi

:w:
 
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Okay ^ now please create a new thread if you want to start that discussion. :) Thankyou.
 
Fear is a powerful motivational tool.
indeed no different than "Speak Softly and Carry a Big Stick" Roosevelt

That's why some use a form of mind control to gain and keep their members.
right again-- no different than mao (Z)xedong tyranny leading to the death of 15 million peasants (communism)

Islam uses heaven and hell, the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape, the requirement of a savior to ameliorate the gap between gods and men..
These are certainly fundamentals but not the crux of the religion... you are no theologian-- you are an atheist... I fail to see an honest unbiased in depth analysis...

The religion cloaks itself under dynamics which affects commercial life (tithing for instance)
I don't see anything wrong with mandatory charity-- no different than state tax-- What hypocrisy in exalting man-made laws even if they were to let the demise of millions, or rob many of their freedom-- yet have the audacity to point the finger at religion...

educational (teaching the doctrine of the religion is inerrant even in the face of overwhelming proof contrary to the religious doctrine).
let's see the contrary then..

and psychological (gods with a vested interest in the behaviors of men, who can see their sins, who are able to mete out justice

What is the point here? What is the point of existence if there is no culmination and consequence or any form of justice?
all of these are severe and inescapable mental leveragings that dictate human behavior-- i.e., psychologies).

indeed.. Islam is here to perfect the qualities of the righteous--
G-D dictating the psychology and morality of man I believe to be more noble than Rupert Murdoch vis a vis Fox news--- happy letting loads of empty vessels imbue loads of bull ranging "freedom fries" to freedom toast to echo hateful sentiment and to evoke that some significance and value to come out of patriotism-- even at the price of human life-- that is what I call brain washing en masse
 
Fear is a powerful motivational tool. That's why some use a form of mind control to gain and keep their members. Islam uses heaven and hell, the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape, the requirement of a savior to ameliorate the gap between gods and men. The religion cloaks itself under dynamics which affects commercial life (tithing for instance), educational (teaching the doctrine of the religion is inerrant even in the face of overwhelming proof contrary to the religious doctrine), and psychological (gods with a vested interest in the behaviors of men, who can see their sins, who are able to mete out justice -- all of these are severe and inescapable mental leveragings that dictate human behavior-- i.e., psychologies).

Let me start by saying that any religion is composed of two major principles.

1)Beliefs

2) Laws

In this respect even atheism is a religion of it's own whether you like it or not as even the atheists have their set of beliefs such as the denial of the existance of God, implying that there was never a messenger sent, inexistance of divine scriptures, inexistance of angels and so on. Also they too have a set of rules which in their view represent the fundamental basics to be followed whether they are derived from themselves or borrowed. So no one escapes following a religion whether they accept it or not and whether they call it a religion or a way of life or whatever it is.

You say that: "Fear is a powerful motivational tool.That's why some use a form of mind control to gain and keep their members".

I say, true and false at the same time. As far as the true part, then you will not fail to see such a motivation at everyone whether a believer or not as in it's broad sense fear is of two types:1) Fear of what you hate to befall to you 2) Fear of loosing what you have of what you like and appreciate. In these premises fear is indeed a motivation tool.

However, this notion is false when it is taken in it's absolute sense as you have put it when it comes and relates to muslims. This is because this kind of fear is fatalism, and fatalism is prohibited in Islam. Indeed it is one of the major sins that a muslim fears God to the point of desparing of His mercy. Therefore if fear was what was sought in and of itself then this is not the fear that God wants you to have towards Him. This is well explained throughout the Qur'an and I will only mention here two verses that explain the reality of the mater.

The first is the very first verse in the Qur'an which says: "In the name of Allah, the Most Gracious, the Most Merciful". The other verse I will mention is the verse that does encompass all people, believers and disbelievers, it says: "Say: "O my Servants who have transgressed against their souls! Despair not of the Mercy of Allah: for Allah forgives all sins: for He is Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful" (39:53).

You said: "Islam uses heaven and hell, the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape, the requirement of a savior to ameliorate the gap between gods and men".

I say: As for the heaven and hell, it is a piece of information regarding the final abodes of people. It is not as you put it as if it was such, then what was explained by the Prophet would not mention that the transgressing sining believers will not abide eternally in hell. At one point they will come out of hell provided that they did not fall into idolatory.

as for: "the concept of sin, a corrupted nature no one can escape", it is not true when it comes to Islam as God and His Prophet indeed have told us that Islam does not deny the fact that man was created weak and that it can fall into temptation, and this is one of the reasons why repentance is accepted from all, indeed from the disbelievrs too. Our Prophet said: "If you did not sin at all, Allah would remove all of you and would bring other people in your place who would sin and would repent from sin".

Now as to what constitutes sin, not only the textual proofs but also the unadulterated thinking and mind agree. I know that you will take the position to say that disbelieving is not a sin in you view and as I am not trying to make you accept my oppinion I will not delve into this matter (perhaps if you like we can open another thread where we can talk about this, later on).

However, you will not fail to agree with me transgression in relation to the other fellow beings is wrong whether you like to call it sin or something else. Now if you were to dissagree with this too (and I do not believe that) then a question is raised for you: "What is right, and what is wrong. Where does the right begin and where it stops. Where does the wrong begins and where it stops. What is the criterion to distinguish between the two?!".

as for: "the requirement of a savior to ameliorate the gap between gods and men", this is the wrong concept towards Islam and muslims as such does not constitute what we believe and what we take as our religion. If you want we can elaborate on that in another thread.

You said: "The religion cloaks itself under dynamics which affects commercial life (tithing for instance), educational (teaching the doctrine of the religion is inerrant even in the face of overwhelming proof contrary to the religious doctrine), and psychological (gods with a vested interest in the behaviors of men, who can see their sins, who are able to mete out justice -- all of these are severe and inescapable mental leveragings that dictate human behavior-- i.e., psychologies)".

I say: First this is confirmation of what I said as to what constitutes a religion and this principle is valid also on the way you have chosen to follow upon the principles and beliefs that you have chosen to follow.

Second: This is completely wrong when you apply them to islam and if you want to take examples of your chosing we can show to you that indeed this principle does not characterise islam. (I only mentioned islam as I am a muslim and speak from a muslim's point of view).

I hope that you really reflect on this issue with a balanced view and indeed your intelect will not fail to see that the understanding that you have toward islam is not accurate. I do not blame you as media and other than them do play a major role in distorting and missinterpreting islam whether by design or accident.
 
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