What happens to Muslims who leave Islam?

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in contrast to the thread... I thought I'd post what happens when you are caught spying as imposed by the laws of the civilized U.S ... Apparently "attempting to transmit govt secrets, is as bad as betraying your allegiance to G-D--- Gasp!

"The Rosenbergs were convicted on March 29, 1951, and on April 5 were sentenced to death by Judge Irving Kaufman under section 2 of the Espionage Act, 50 U.S. Code 32 (now 18 U.S. Code 794), which prohibits transmitting or attempting to transmit to a foreign government information "relating to the national defense." The conviction helped to fuel Senator Joseph McCarthy's investigations into anti-American activities by U.S. citizens. While their devotion to the Communist cause was well documented, the Rosenbergs denied the espionage charges even as they faced the electric chair.


http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/rosenb/ROSENB.HTM
 
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Just once and for all, so I don't leave this thread with any misunderstandings -

Islam actually tells you to kill apostates or not?
 
Just once and for all, so I don't leave this thread with any misunderstandings -

Islam actually tells you to kill apostates or not?

http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/4738-islam-apostasy.html

By: Ansar Al-'Adl
Administrator
In order to understand this issue, we need to examine the Islamic law on apostasy. Since religion is looked on as a personal affair in western society, the notion of state intervention in one's personal choice would naturally seem excessive. However, from the Islamic perspective, a number of points must be observed with regard to apostasy:
1. Islam has never compelled anyone to accept the religion. Anyone who becomes a Muslim does so purely through objective study of the religion. As Allah has informed us in the Qur'an:

2:256 There is no compulsion in religion.
10:99 So would you (O Muhammad) then compel people to become believers?

Likewise, Islam encourages its followers to reflect and contemplate upon the universe around us and to ponder over the beauty of the Qur'anic message:

47:24 Do they not ponder over the Qur'an or are their hearts locked up?

51:20-21. And on earth are signs for those endowed with inner-certainty; and [likewise there are signs] in yourselves, do you not observe?

29:20 Say: "Travel through the earth and see how Allah did originate creation; so will Allah produce a later creation: for Allah has power over all things.

Thus, Islam requires that one's faith be constructed upon logical investigation and study of the universe in which we live. Through logical contemplation, one realizes the supreme authority of the Creator and the veracity of Muhammad's (saws) claim to prophethood. Thus we find that, in the history of Islam, no knowledgeable Muslim has ever left Islam. The only cases we find of former Muslims are people who were never practicing Muslims in the first place, nor did they ever have a good understanding of Islam. Yet on the other hand, the list of educated converts to Islam is immense, and it includes educated leaders such as priests, rabbis and atheists.

2. Those who have left Islam have historically fallen under three categories: those who left having never properly understood the religion often due to social circumstances, those who faked a conversion into Islam in order to undermine the Islamic community from within, and those who left to support opposing forces in battle against the Muslims. Because of the first category, Islam requires that the person who has chosen to forsake the religion be consulted with in order that his doubts may be clarified to him if there is any specific issue of confusion, or so that he may learn the proper Islamic teachings that he may otherwise have not been exposed to. As for the second and third category, this was the original reason behind the Prophet's statement on apostasy. The Qur'an records (3:72) that the Jews of Madinah decided to initiate the practice of pretending to accept Islam and then publicly declare their rejection of it, so as to destroy the confidence of the newly-converted Muslims. Thus, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh ruled that a punishment should be announced so that those who decide to accept Islam do so because of a firm conviction not in order to harm the Muslim community from within.

3. Coming to the actual law of apostasy, the Prophet Muhammad pbuh did say, in the above historical context, "Whoever replaces his religion, execute him" (Bukhari, Abu Dawud) but how exactly do we understand this statement and does it conflict with the principles of freedom? The Prophet Muhammad pbuh himself clarified this statement in another hadith narrated in Sahih Muslim where he mentioned that the one who was to be fought against was the one who "abandons his religion and the Muslim community". It should be noted that every country has maintained punishments, including execution, for treason and rebellion against the state (See Mozley and Whitley's Law Dictionary, under "Treason and Treason Felony," pp. 368-369). Islam is not just a set of beliefs, it is a complete system of life which includes a Muslim's allegiance to the Islamic state. Thus, a rejection against that would be akin to treason. Rebellion against God is more serious than rebellion against one's country. However, one who personally abandons the faith and leaves the country would not be hunted down and assassinated, nor would one who remains inside the state conforming to outward laws be tracked down and executed. The notion of establishing inquisition courts to determine peoples' faith, as done in the Spanish Inquisition, is something contrary to Islamic law. As illustrated by the historical context in which it was mandated, the death penalty is mainly for those who collaborate with enemy forces in order to aid them in their attacks against the Islamic state or for those who seek to promote civil unrest and rebellion from within the Islamic state. When someone publicly announces their rejection of Islam within an Islamic state it is basically a challenge to the Islamic government, since such an individual can keep it to themselves like the personal affair it is made out to be.

4. From Islamic history, we can gain a better understanding of how this law has been implemented. Although the Prophet Muhammad pbuh threatened the death penalty in response to the attempts against the Muslim community, no such executions took place in his time (Imam Shawkani, Nayl Al-Awtar, vol. 7, p. 192) even though there is a report that a Bedouin renounced Islam and left Madinah unharmed in his time (Fath Al-Bari vol. 4, p.77 and vol. 13 p. 170; Sahih Muslim biSharh An-Nawawi, vol. 9, p. 391). Thus, we find that context plays an important role in determining how to deal with apostates. The case of one who enlists nations to fight against the Islamic state is more serious, for example. That is why the scholars of the Hanafi school of thought felt that the punishment only applies to the male apostate and not the female apostate because the latter is unable to wage war against the Islamic state. If someone simply has some doubts concerning Islam, then those doubts can be clarified.
So an Islamic state is certainly justified in punishing those who betray the state, committing treason and support enemy forces. As for anyone else, if they do not publicly declare their rejection of Islam, the state has no interest in pursuing them; if their case does become public, however, then they should be reasoned with and educated concerning the religion so that they have the opportunity to learn the concepts they may not have understood properly and they can be encouraged to repent.

From another of my posts:

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ansar Al-'Adl
Quote:
Originally Posted by blunderbus
If a predominantly Christian country were going to execute a former Christian who converted to another religion (in this hypothetical case, Islam) would you be ok with that?

As a side note, this has already happened, examples include the spanish inquisition. But on to your question...

First of all, the law on apostasy has been explained here (My view on muslims) and here (Islam and Apostasy). It is commonly taken out of context, but the point to note is that the Prophet Muhammad (saws) clarified that the one to be punished was the one who rebelled against the community. This is quite similar to state laws on treason. A state is justified in taking action against those who pose a significant threat. But the idea of setting up an inquisition to examine the beliefs of the people is against Islamic teachings, so someone who personally changes their religious convictions will be insignificant in the eyes of the state. It is the one who publically announces his rebellion, stirring civil unrest, who must be opposed. While the Christian inquisitions were bent on examining (through the use of torture) the beliefs of those Muslims and Jews who outwardly professed conversion to Christianity, in an Islamic state, someone who even outwardly professes acceptane of Islam is left alone because they cause no harm to society, and the Islamic state is only interested in the security of its society.

If someone poses a threat to a state's security, then they are justified in taking action against them. But if someone changes their personal religious views, then it is quite extreme for the state to attempt to pry into the hearts of its citizens to determine their faith and punish them.


__________________




there you go... am sure the link if not the above post will suffice to answer all your Q's

peace!
 
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Fi_Sabilillah said:
Hey. :)
I think its a part of christianity also:

No, you are mistaken.

If a person acts badly the Pope can discommmunicate a person from the church.

This means a person cannot partake in the sacraments of the church.

In other words the Pope can kick someone out of the church. Who then will punish the person for leaving the church?

-
 
As i understood , islam is not just a faith but also a law and a political system. Thats why leaving this is seen as a betray and punished by death.
And that is why islamic laws are so hard to co - exist in non islamic countries.
 
As i understood , islam is not just a faith but also a law and a political system. Thats why leaving this is seen as a betray and punished by death.
And that is why islamic laws are so hard to co - exist in non islamic countries.

How so? obviously Islamic laws can't be enforced on non-Muslims or in a non-Islamic state...

the link I provided in the previous page is by a scholar and is very comprehensive... otherwise, we are all handing out opinions... And there is certainly no shortage of dynamos of hyperbole's on board!

peace!
 
By bros Ansar Al 'Adl-- first regarding the fact that there are no (islamic states today) and second part discusses the rights of non-muslims under Islamic states as mandated by Islamic law.
http://www.islamicboard.com/refutations/40557-rights-dhimmi-non-muslim-muslim-islamic-state.html

;736299 said:
First- the statement that there are no Islamic states in existence today is not merely a claim. It is a fact that there is no country today that is implementing the Sharî'ah accurately and in its entirety. This is most notably visible in the absence of khilâfa, the Islamic political system of governance. In order to assess anyone's beliefs or actions from the Islamic perspective we need to go back to the original sources of Islamic law, the conclusions of which are summarized in the points found in the original post. The actions of any group or indvidual can only be attributed to their religion if it can objectively be demonstrated that such actions have explicit basis in the religious sources.

Second - Muslims need to start with educational reform in order to spread knowledge of the authentic Islamic teachings. Only then can we hope to move in the direction of correct and complete implementation of Islamic law.

Third - from the aforementioned points it should be clear that there is a definite purpose to be served spreading knowledge of the islamic laws in this regard, and it is not idle talk of a fanstasy 'utopia'. It is ironic that when misinformation is spread that paints Islamic law as unjust, no one complains but when accurate information is spread concerning the Islamic teachings, it is dismissed as a pointless discussion of a utopia! Rather, it is crucial for us to spread the accurate information about Islamic teachings if there is to be any positive reform in the Muslim Ummah. Our situation will not improve until Muslims return to their religion and begin practicing again.

Fourth - It is so easy to look at the problems around the world and throw all the blame on people's religious beliefs. It is not as easy to take an objective look at the situation and analyze the complex array of socioeconomic and geopolitical factors involved. But that is precisely what needs to be done.

Regards
 
One point and one point only.
Dont call it Islamic! My God...having only some islamic laws doesnt make it islamic cuz half the time it's established incorrectly. Im sick of the ignorance on this forum. So much info availabe yet we still have idiocy. Get the facts straight please.
 
He isn't here to learn... and we have been more than hospitable...I hope they give him the boot soon.

:w:
 
people often use statistics to try to prove two different sides of the same issue Chances are if you start up with a particular bias, you will end up finding exactly what you are looking for. No big mystery here---when you provoke, and have presupposed expectations-- you'll get a predictable reaction... you reap what you sow!
 
Let’s suppose that’s true, your first sentence, – and I’m not convinced it is. What good are excuses?

We live in a reality, not in a mythical world you would like to be true. The second class status of the dhimmi is nothing new in an Islamic state. Why would anyone believe your mythical Islamic state would be different.

Let’s take this board as a microcosm of islam’s adherents. I see plainly the revulsion and disrespect that many here have for the kafir. Why would anyone expect a larger cross section of Moslems to be different?

Interesting.

Let’s take this board as a microcosm of islam’s adherents. I see plainly the revulsion and disrespect that many here have for the kafir. Why would anyone expect a larger cross section of Moslems to be different?

Perhaps you have failed to notice that there are more than one or 2 non-Muslim who we disagree with strongly. Yet, We have very high respect for them and appreciate their views. Do you think it may be because they know how to agree to disagree?

It may be that it is not your views that are objectionable, but your presentation may leave something to be desired.
 
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Egypt actively discriminates against Christianity

i live in egypt and what you said just shows how much are you being deceived by your media because here in egypt christians have more privileges conserning their religious practices than muslims and i will till you some examples.

first
an egyption christian preacher who currently lives outside egypt, his name is Zakariya Botros, this man is attacking islam and mocking the muslims and he gives lectures through a sattelite channel in which he lies and misquote from islamic sources to decieve his audiences.

then an egyption scholar named Abd Allah Badr made a series of lectures to make responces to what this christian man is saying with giving evidences and conclusive arguments and after he made about 6 lectures, the egyption government took him to jail with the accusation of making a corruption in the relationship between muslims and christiansfor just defending his faith.

so the christian one gets away while the muslim one is still currently in jail.

another story someone told me which happened in egypt:
in a bus there was a bearded muslim and another christian also with a beard and a moustache, then some police officers stopped the bus and told the muslim to come with them (just for being a bearded muslim) then the muslim man said : why only me ,this man is bearded two and i will not come with you unless you take him (the christian man) too. then the officer hesitated a little and then told the bus to go on and no one was taken to interrogation, not the muslim nor the christian because this officer feared that he may be accused by christians (with the back up of outside ountries such as America) of being an sectarian or a non-muslims enemy.

besides if you visit egypt you will find a lot of churches being build inspite the low numbers of christians in the country

the bottom line is christians are having so much freedom in this country but they keep showing otherwise through your unhonest medias as a blackmailing to the egyption government.

and i almost forgot to tell you about how the christians are practicing christianization freely in the universities in egypt and they have done a bit of an effort in the last book exhibition also in egypt.

and if you want further evidences of what i said i can give you more.

and about the other countries, i think we will need someone from these countries to show you how misleaded are you.

the list goes on.

yes indeed, your lies list is going on & on; that i wish that after a long time it will eventually runs out.
 
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Let’s take this board as a microcosm of islam’s adherents. I see plainly the revulsion and disrespect that many here have for the kafir. Why would anyone expect a larger cross section of Moslems to be different?

Actually I disagree. I am not only atheistic but anti-religous, and most of the muslims here have been very friendly towards me since I've been here. Only two (out of at least 30) have been outwardly rude, and even they haven't hostile to the point of really concerning me (they just look like dolts). But you get that on any message board with any ideology, even baseball. Don't let a couple nutters distort your view of the whole.
 
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Ruggedtouch, if you really get so much people attacking you via PM, why not ask the mods and they'll try to see what's going on? No-ones stopping you. Because its against forum rules to start 'beef' with anyone anyway.


Regards.
 
I don’t believe anything will inflame passions more than religious discussions… well… maybe except for European soccer.

While I appreciate your comments, I’ve seen precisely the opposite. You should see my PM inbox. You would think that it’s been handed over to a bunch of European soccer fans and drunken sailors on shore leave.

We do not approve of anyone using the PM system for personal attacks against any member. If this is done Please forward the offending PMs to any Mod.
 
You provide no sources for your claims. I suspect there's a reason why.

It’s possible that you may have missed this article, then.
Muslims battle Christians in Egypt

again you speek without having the knowledge, you don't even live in egypt, you don't even watch the arabic channels to see what is really going on on these countries.

i have seen in Dream channel (which is considered a liberate one or atleast it may be controled by the government) a man who belongs to the human rights here in egypt, he was presenting the reports that shows how many innocent muslims are currently in jail, they are in jail even after they got the court's verdict of their innocance of any crime.

so don't you tell me about christians having bad times in egypt.

you only read the news that other people translated, so clever indeed ?!

and here is an arabic link about bearded muslims being taken to coustady and then letting them out after crude interrogation.

http://www.azzaman.com/index.asp?fname=2007\04\04-30\899.htm&storytitle

& here

http://www.almesryoon.com/ShowDetails.asp?NewID=33586&Page=1

and i have a part of a play made my christians inwich they mock the muslims and the religion of islam, if you want it i can send it to you and i can send to you the full text of this disgraceful play made by christians and played in the churches.

so what do you know about it.and who is mocking who ?

i have a recorded audio of christian man threatining that he will kill every muslim if he got the chance of being a leader.

and by the way the link you gave needs registration.
 
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and here is a link from some students of Shiekh Abd Allah Badr who are telling what happened to him. and that he is currently in jail just for defending his religion.

it is an arabic forum and you will need to register in it (if you can understand a thing in arabic language)
http://www.muslm.net/vb/showthread.php?t=166864

and i also have a video file of one of the egyption christian priests named Morkos Aziz and he is mocking the governmetal policies but no one took him to jail and the Government did not hurt him for what he said.

and for you to know the oppression made on any christian who chooses to convert to islam read this story about Wafaa` Qustantine, after she converted to islam the christians then made a huge propaganda and said that she was kidnapped by muslims but then she gave some statments to the press to say that she really wants to be a muslim.

http://hemo3d.awardspace.com/Asite/articl/hda/c/c33.htm

and after you read the story (if you can read it),here is other sources that assures what you read and it says that the christians forced Sister Wafaa` to come again to christianity. which is against her will.

here is the Full story in arabic

and i have a video of two former christian women who have converted to islam and they are telling the opression made by their families on them after converting.

and the list is indeed very long.

so from what you read you will realize how the egyption christians do all means necessary(even lying and fabrication of stories and using the principle of the cause justifies the means )to be able to gain more immunity than public muslims and for them to be able to act as they want without the government ask them why or how you did it .

and more links to post (all in arabic):

1-christian organizations call to disrupt after an egyption christian nun converts to islam
http://www.islammemo.cc/article1.aspx?id=9748

2-christian missionary christianizes poor muslims in egypt by the name of charity
http://www.islammemo.cc/article1.aspx?id=19010

and if you want more links just ask for it and atleast try to learn from both sides so that no one can trick and deceive you.
 
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Actually I disagree. I am not only atheistic but anti-religous, and most of the muslims here have been very friendly towards me since I've been here. Only two (out of at least 30) have been outwardly rude, and even they haven't hostile to the point of really concerning me (they just look like dolts). But you get that on any message board with any ideology, even baseball. Don't let a couple nutters distort your view of the whole.

I agree. I came to the same conclusion. It's an interesting observation really, the holy scriptures are in general a whole lot more aggressive and rude than most believers.
 
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