What is an agnostic?

[sevgi]

this whole subject of advertising and mind control is horrendous. there are people who spend their entire lives buying crap that they are told will make them more beautiful, loveable, successful, happy etc etc - and that they are not good enough the way the are. a whole nation (world?) believing that more things is the solution to everything.

and here is the best part of all. i am trying to change you to believe that it is wrong to try to change people!!!! ;D ;D

i see where ur getting at snakes...its definietly not nice to see people 'jumping' on one another in order to 'correct' them...

might i impose a new stance tho...perhaps the bible intends to urge its followers not to enforce christian dogma upon others, but to alter their misguided thoughts about christianity...

eg, i am a muslim...in no way do i feel the need or want to convert the people around me...i see that as an act of aggression...but what i do view as my 'mission'-so to speak- is to portray islam the best i can, the way it is truly and answer questions about islam when asked, in order to break the barriers and misunderstandings others may hold against islam and muslims.trying to change their perceptions on islam...not trying to make them accept islam as the one true path of Allah...

if they CHOOSE to convert along the way, halelulja...if not, at least theyve gained something and lost their bias.

about christians...i dnt know if they are all in the same mentality of wanting to 'correct' us infidels...but it may just be a self percieved thing...it may depend on the individual..the verses in the bible may be interpreted in many ways...it probably depends on the initial preecher...i doubt that the bible-due to the fact that they believe it is the word of God himself-is a text overrided with ideologies about correcting the others...i havent read the whole bible, but i have read it and studied it enough to know that half of it doesnt make sense for todays growing christian generation..and the other half is full of trying to convince them that a man was God...

there are missionary movements existent today...and especially in the past...Euro history of the late middle ages is full of it...i find it a little confronting..i mean..even at uni...im there to study...why are u shoving ur beliefs into my face and telling me im going to hell unless i embrace the grace or ur man-god.

its not right...so i agree in a way snakes...but i also think that 'correcting' can be seen in another light as i have presented above.

peace.

 

[barney]

The Bible is no different to the others in terms of violence. It's incorrect to say however that a word cant be said against it.
I'm sure that if i was in the middle of the bible belt of the US and I was to start burning bibles, the reception would be hostile. Mayby some nut would get his winchester out and pop me a cap. Perhaps...perhaps not.

I know I could do the same in England and people would just think I needed to get a life, cos burning books is nuts in itself (Exception: Harry Potter). The majority of people would just not give a monkeys.

In respect of the 2000 odd words about wasting life on forums, compare postcounts. Agnostics evangelicalise in my opinion with as much fanatisism as any religious person. Personally, i think it's a waste of time.

More broadly, converting from a religion to atheism or agnostisism is a personal journey as much as vice- versa. How many atheists grab a bible after a visit from the guitar playing door-wallopers? it's as far a leap to take to disbeleive as to beleive. Applying logic to evangelicalise agnostisism or applying spirituality to evangelicalise Theism has zero effect unless the person is open to receive.

 

[KAding]

Those who know me from this board probably won't believe me when I type this, but I do the same thing

There is indeed a certain group of atheists who try to speak for "atheists" and try to decide what atheists believe. Atheism is nothing more than a lack of belief in Gods. Full stop. That's it. There is nothing else to it. Atheism is not humanism and it is not whatever other ethical system these people try to pin on it. It is ironic when ones try to call themselves "free-thinkers" or "brights" (anybody remember that idiocy?). They are not freethinking; they are blindly following a doctrine, just like religious people do.

That said, this group of "atheists" though outspoken and organized are a very small minority of atheists in general. Most atheists are difficult to organize precisely because they have nothing in common other than their lack of belief in gods and perhaps their concerns about religion doing harm to society (but then not all atheists see religion as harmful).

I must say though, it also annoys me when people speak of writers like Dawkins as "atheist prophets". I don't follow Dawkins and I find him horrid. He doesn't speak for me and he doesn't speak for atheism or for anti-religion. Refering to Dawkins, or Darwin, as "atheist leaders" is a button many theists like to push to annoy atheists, and it works because it shows a fundamental lack of understanding of what atheism is and it tries to attribute a group identity and group think to people who usually treasure their free thinking and individuality (If they didn't they'd stay or become the prevailing religion in their community - its a much easier life)

:thumbs_up Well said. I am also not very fond of radical atheists like Dawkins. Atheists don't form a social group and are indeed quite unorganized.

 

[wilberhum]

You ran a random double blind study on what sorts of folks go into surgery?

Doesn’t this kind of rhetorical question work both ways?

It seems to me that the original insulter would have been very successful doing Social Analysis for the Third Reich. :embarrass
Well I guess not. That would be supporting the superiority of the Aryans and they already know which group is superior. :uuh:

But after thinking about how your belief system should dictate what kind of career one should choose, I came to the following conclusions.
I think agnostics would function best where an open mind is critical.
I think theists would make the best Fairy Tale writers.
I think atheists would function best where critical analysis of facts is paramount.

But then those are just the thoughts of a weak mind agnostic that is really not capable of making a decision. :shade:

 

[snakelegs]

It isn't just that they believe you will burn in hell forever. It is that they AGREE that it is JUST for you to burn in hell forever. You don't have to believe their dogma to see how morally bankrupt it is. And all of these negative views can and do carry over from their religion to their other views. Religious views do not exist in a vacuum.

Christianity teaches self-depreciation (we all deserve eternal torure). And it teaches that belief and worship are the way out instead of works. Those who disbelieve are not to be saved and are to be punished. Is it any wonder that highly religious countries such as the US are highly authoritarian and people there will snap at you for questioning the authority figure? Is it any wonder that disasters in the distant future like global warming are ignored, when a good portion of the country sees the end of the world as soon to come and as being a GOOD THING?

i agree with all that you have mentioned. we had a secretary of the interior who said we didn't need to worry about the trees because jesus would be coming back soon.
also, i think it is very possible that bush, inc and ahmedinijad will attempt to fullfill the prophecy about armegeddon, which they share.


Christianity teaches inherited blame. It says that we should be punished for what our ancestor, Adam did. Can you see bad behavoiurs that may result if this mindset is copied over to other aspects of life?

yes, of course i do.

Christianity teaches that blood and death are the way to make up for wrongdoing, rather than good deeds. It teaches that we are forgiven our sins not by working them off but by the death and torture of Jesus. Is it any suprise that the US allows capital punishment? And that so often punishment is placed above reform and reparation?

Chrisitanity, and most other religions, teach a black and white, good vs evil, God vs Satan view of the world. Is it then any wonder that US politics are so sharply polarized and binary and ingroup/outgroup? "We must destroy the evildoers before they destroy us". "You are with us or against us".

Because their views effect you.

i agree with most you have written above. these things do me and they concern me a lot. but this is when i think about it in the abstract. when i come across an individual who believes these things, i don't feel any need to try to change them. i hate it when they try to change me - is the answer to do the same thing to them?
we have to live with people of different beliefs. i think these beliefs are harmful but i am not about to try to "save them". i think political action is definitely laudable, in trying to fight tooth and nail attempts by christians to influence our government and nibble away at our separation of church and state. so i think the acts are worthy of criticism.

Do you also ignore white supremecists or those who speak speak terrorist sentiments?

no. i avoid them.
i don't believe for one minute that i could convince them that they were wrong. i have had political arguments with people in the past. we both came away with the same beliefs and opinions that we started out with.



Indeed, and if it were released for the first time today, as a novel or a movie, it would likely be banned as hate speech designed to encourage violence and intolerance. But because it is a religious holy book it is taboo to speak a word against it.

agree.

No, because secularism has subdued this part of Christianity in the west. But so long as the bible reads as it does and so long as Christians continue to pass it off as the word of God, the part of Christianity you refer to is merely subdued, not dead, and it could very well rise up again.

i too, recognise this danger.

I don't advocate "correcting" the christian next door. I don't "correct" the racists next door either. We're not about to round people up like an inquisition.

But we should speak against these things, and we should encourage people to question the authority that pushes these beliefs on them and to question these beliefs themselves by looking at them in other contexts. We should not allow Christian to go unchallanged. Our voices as non believers need to be heard as well.



That is true. But its far easier to justify attrocity to yourself and your society when there is a handy religious texts to support it.

And as I mentioned above, many religions encourage hate and intolerance. For example, do you know many non-religious people who oppose same sex couples having equal rights to heterosexual couples? Or is it mostly religous people who take this stance? And if you've asked those religious people why they descriminate like this, have they ever given you good rational and fair explanations, or do they just tell you its an "abonimation" and their God declares it "evil"? At the extreme you've got Fred Phelps - and he and those like him have plenty of bible passages directly backing their views.



I was not one of them. Was it posted in a fellowship section of the board or here in "Comparative Religion"? If the former I'd equate an atheist jumping in and "correcting" the post to somebody rushing into a mosque or church and screaming at everybody. Rude. But if it was here in "Comparative Religion" I see nothing wrong with people pointing out the flaws in the logic.

it was posted in comparative religion. do you think it possible that a poem such as this (seeing nature as confirmaton of god's existence) might be a good thing because it is something that muslims, christians and jews can agree on - that can bring them together? i think there is value in that.

So you are alarmed by the growth of the christian right and its influence but you feel it is wrong to do anything about it?

no - fight it, if you're an activist type (i confess i am not) - fight their attempts to chisel away at our constitution. but spare somebody's aunt emily from having to hear "The Truth" as you see it, and respect her religious beliefs. again - it's about actions, not beliefs. i agree the beliefs cause the actions, as you've said - but you can only fight the actions.
not every christian is going to do this stuff. there are many very decent people who happen to be christian.
i am convinced that the people who want to do the types of things we've been talking about are that type of people and would be no different if they were marxists instead of christians. many christians find things in their religion that lead them to do positive things.

Nor will I. I find that offensive too. People like Dawkins (the author of "the god delusion") do more harm than good. But I also won't just sit around and smile as a hateful ideology spreads and tries to control my environment either. That is just as bad, if not worse.

so you think you can come to an islamic forum and enlighten the misguided and they will read your comments and say aha! of course! i've been wrong - pygo is right and the qur'an is wrong!

Yep. They try to control what you wear, what you eat, and what you believe about just about everything so that they can profit from it. Advertising, religion, fashion "trends", it is all the same deal.

Tell that to Martin Luther King Jr. It is not wrong to try to change people's beliefs and opinions, especially if those beliefs and opinions are harmful or dangerous. Its just a matter of how you go about it.

i think you are on the belief level and i am on the acts level. it doesn't matter if a person thinks blacks are inferior to him, as long as he accepts the fact that there is something unfair about discrimination and that it is wrong. (i've known people like this - who will admit their own racism and at the same time, realize that injustice needs to be corrected).

and yes, i guess our disagreent bascially centres around how you go about it.
mind control is much easier for people to grasp when it is in a more neutral territory such as advertising.
you might (or might not) want to ask yourself why millions of christians have their beliefs and read their holy books for inspiration and are led to try to be better human beings in their dealings with their fellow men, and some christians, reading the same holy books, will feel compelled to do a terrorist act - like murder a doctor or bomb an abortion clinic.

 

[snakelegs]

i see where ur getting at snakes...its definietly not nice to see people 'jumping' on one another in order to 'correct' them...

might i impose a new stance tho...perhaps the bible intends to urge its followers not to enforce christian dogma upon others, but to alter their misguided thoughts about christianity...

i confess - i have never read the "new testament". i don't think christians are any more or less misguided than i am, even though i don't share their beliefs.
if you mean, the way they go about trying to convert people, i don't know if they are misguided or following what their book tells them. but i have noticed that christians vary widely in the amount of effort they feel complelled to devote to this (proselytizing) aspect of their religion.

eg, i am a muslim...in no way do i feel the need or want to convert the people around me...i see that as an act of aggression...but what i do view as my 'mission'-so to speak- is to portray islam the best i can, the way it is truly and answer questions about islam when asked, in order to break the barriers and misunderstandings others may hold against islam and muslims.trying to change their perceptions on islam...not trying to make them accept islam as the one true path of Allah...

if they CHOOSE to convert along the way, halelulja...if not, at least theyve gained something and lost their bias.

your religion tells you that you should do dawah.
i have never known a muslim to go about this the same way christians do.
dawah means invitation, i believe. and this seems to be the muslim approach. they put the food on the table and invite you but they don't try to force you into your chair and force feed you! it is a difference that i appreciate.

about christians...i dnt know if they are all in the same mentality of wanting to 'correct' us infidels...but it may just be a self percieved thing...it may depend on the individual..the verses in the bible may be interpreted in many ways...it probably depends on the initial preecher...i doubt that the bible-due to the fact that they believe it is the word of God himself-is a text overrided with ideologies about correcting the others...i havent read the whole bible, but i have read it and studied it enough to know that half of it doesnt make sense for todays growing christian generation..and the other half is full of trying to convince them that a man was God...

yes - it strictly depends on the individual. i was talking about this in my last post (to pygo). there are just as many decent christians, as there are muslims, agnostics, atheists etc etc
i disagree with most things about christianity, but i can respect the individual, who is prompted by their religion to be a decent human being.

there are missionary movements existent today...and especially in the past...Euro history of the late middle ages is full of it...i find it a little confronting..i mean..even at uni...im there to study...why are u shoving ur beliefs into my face and telling me im going to hell unless i embrace the grace or ur man-god.

its not right...so i agree in a way snakes...but i also think that 'correcting' can be seen in another light as i have presented above.

peace.

yes, there is a different way of looking at it. but something in me just simply does not want to be "corrected" and i really don't want to "correct" anyone else either.

 

[barney]

If a Christian bombs a clinic, a Muslim smashes a Skyscraper or a Atheist murders a Child, they are following Humanitys natural instincts for destruction.

The only difference is the rational they give themselves.
A Christian will beleive he is doing Gods work, so will a muslim, the Atheist is following their own self-interests or insanitys.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Not sure how you're doing it but your posts are showing your text inside quoteboxes, making them unquotable and I'm having to cut and paste to reply to you.

when i come across an individual who believes these things, i don't feel any need to try to change them.

If I can do anything that could change them, I will. You say you agree that their mentality is dangrous and does us harm and then you say we should make no effort to change their mentality.

If they are so far gone that its pointless then sure, leave them be. But if they are young and their ideas are maleable, that is when to reach them and either safeguard them from this insanity or pull them back from it.

it was posted in comparative religion. do you think it possible that a poem such as this (seeing nature as confirmaton of god's existence) might be a good thing because it is something that muslims, christians and jews can agree on - that can bring them together? i think there is value in that.

I went back and looked for the post and found it. I see abosolutely nothing wrong with criticizing a post entitled "there is a god - take a glance" when its in a "comparative religion section". It is a claim being made, and a insinuation that all should agree with that claim by "taking a glance". As I said above, if this was posted in a fellowship room thats one thing, but posted here it is little more than a provocative statement.

but spare somebody's aunt emily from having to hear "The Truth" as you see it, and respect her religious beliefs.

As I said before I don't go hunt down harmless grandmas on their death beds clinging to their delusions.

but you can only fight the actions.

Not true. You can fight the beliefs. We do it all the time for other beliefs, why not this one? You can especially fight the beliefs by reaching the young impressionable minds these people are brainwashing.

so you think you can come to an islamic forum and enlighten the misguided and they will read your comments and say aha! of course! i've been wrong - pygo is right and the qur'an is wrong!

Now you are building straw men.

it doesn't matter if a person thinks blacks are inferior to him, as long as he accepts the fact that there is something unfair about discrimination and that it is wrong.

That is quite a mental contortion. If you truly believe blacks are inferior or a "lesser race" why would you think it unfair or wrong to discriminate against them and put yourself above them? Thats a direct contradiction.

mind control is much easier for people to grasp when it is in a more neutral territory such as advertising.

It is nowhere near as neutral territory or lacking in political charge as you seem to think. Consider those inane PC vs Apple fights back in the day by their users, or try to switch a trendy teenage girl's brand name jeans and sweaters with generic brand X stuff.

 

[barney]

Yah, interesting tpic here. Us Aggys and Atthys are here for one of three reasons.
1)we want to find God, we think we will find him in Islam.
2) we are here to convert people by use of logic and science into throwing away their dusty old tomes and get everyone into the hip 'n happening modern age WhOOOO!
3) We are interested in religions and wonder what answers the Theists have for our logic. we know we wont change a Theist's mind, but love to poke about exploring religio-psychosocial frameworks.

(i'm number 3 BTW)

 

[snakelegs]

Not sure how you're doing it but your posts are showing your text inside quoteboxes, making them unquotable and I'm having to cut and paste to reply to you.

apologies. i was doing it the lazy way.

If I can do anything that could change them, I will. You say you agree that their mentality is dangrous and does us harm and then you say we should make no effort to change their mentality.

If they are so far gone that its pointless then sure, leave them be. But if they are young and their ideas are maleable, that is when to reach them and either safeguard them from this insanity or pull them back from it.


I went back and looked for the post and found it. I see abosolutely nothing wrong with criticizing a post entitled "there is a god - take a glance" when its in a "comparative religion section". It is a claim being made, and a insinuation that all should agree with that claim by "taking a glance". As I said above, if this was posted in a fellowship room thats one thing, but posted here it is little more than a provocative statement.

we'll just disagree.

As I said before I don't go hunt down harmless grandmas on their death beds clinging to their delusions.

i don't see how you can be so confident that her beliefs are "delusions". i don't share any christian beliefs at all that i am aware of. but i cannot say they are deluded. religion is belief. belief can not, by its very nature, be proven one way or the other. maybe christians are right, for all i know. i just don't share their beliefs.

Not true. You can fight the beliefs. We do it all the time for other beliefs, why not this one? You can especially fight the beliefs by reaching the young impressionable minds these people are brainwashing.

you are trying to brainwash them that they have been brainwashed and deluded by their religious teachings.

Now you are building straw men.

am i? why does an atheist hang around a religious forum?

That is quite a mental contortion. If you truly believe blacks are inferior or a "lesser race" why would you think it unfair or wrong to discriminate against them and put yourself above them? Thats a direct contradiction.

indeed it is, but i have actually met such people.

It is nowhere near as neutral territory or lacking in political charge as you seem to think. Consider those inane PC vs Apple fights back in the day by their users, or try to switch a trendy teenage girl's brand name jeans and sweaters with generic brand X stuff.

not sure what you are saying here. i don't have tv or listen to commercial radio, so i don't really see many ads - pretty much just bill boards and the few magazines i read. (they're pretty easy to ignore in magazines).
if you want to show people how they are manipulated by television or advertising, i think they will be much able to hear you than if you try telling someone that their religion is wrong.
creepy part of it is that i think a lot of people are of this, but continue to be dictated to out of fear of being different. so you may convince them to believe that they can still be a happy human being without the latest designer jeans.... and they will still continue to waste money on them. even though their beliefs may have changed - their actions will remain the same.
and this is the really scary part!

 

[Pygoscelis]

i don't see how you can be so confident that her beliefs are "delusions". i don't share any christian beliefs at all that i am aware of. but i cannot say they are deluded. religion is belief. belief can not, by its very nature, be proven one way or the other. maybe christians are right, for all i know. i just don't share their beliefs.

And perhaps that guy in the assylum really IS napoleon.

Regardless of if they are right or not, they teach an ideology that is offensive and dangerous (you agreed to this above). Ideologies that are offensive and dangerous should be fought and resisted, and we should save young minds from falling into them.. It doesn't matter if we are talking about white supremecy, fascism, or christianity. Have you seen that now infamous documentary "Jesus Camp". Would you make no effort to reach and rescue such young minds if you could?

am i? why does an atheist hang around a religious forum?

I do it for a variety of reasons. Barney shares one with me (see the post directly above your last one). I was a psychology major in my undergrad. I studied social cognition and a part of that is the psychology of group think and of religion. Living where I do I don't have much access to muslim minds other than here.

Another reason to read islamic boards is concern and investigation. After all the 9/11 hype, Islam became a more interesting religion to me. Is it as horrible as the US media makes it out to be? Does it repress women? Does it lead to terrorism? Is it as negative, dangerous, and offensive a mindset as Christianity? Should I fight it? Should I protect muslims when they are verbally attacked by Christians (I can identify with them when they are)? And I have discovered that while some dangers about Islam the west talks about are exagerated or flatly wrong (and its amazing just how wrong), others are never mentioned.

Another reason is the one you point to as the only reason - to possibly reach some people and help them. That is not my main reason for being here and I expect it isn't anybody's because it is rarely effective, but it can and does happen from time to time. Not everybody who reads boards such as these, especially in a "comparative religion section", are die hard believers. Some lurkers who don't post are doubters and if I can help them progress, why would I not?

indeed it is, but i have actually met such people.

I think there is a good chance that they are trying to reconcile their internal beliefs (racism) with the external pressures of political correctness. They may be telling you what they think you want to hear so they can appear in a good light to you.

not sure what you are saying here. i don't have tv or listen to commercial radio, so i don't really see many ads - pretty much just bill boards and the few magazines i read. (they're pretty easy to ignore in magazines).

There are people who get as caught up in and as victimized by advertising and other group think (trends) as those who get caught up in religion.

if you want to show people how they are manipulated by television or advertising, i think they will be much able to hear you than if you try telling someone that their religion is wrong.

What about when both are involved? Televangelists who swindle people out of their money. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popoff (my personal favourite), Jack Van Impe. How do you feel about talking to their victims? Is it different than how you feel about the victims of other frauds?

creepy part of it is that i think a lot of people are of this, but continue to be dictated to out of fear of being different. so you may convince them to believe that they can still be a happy human being without the latest designer jeans.... and they will still continue to waste money on them. even though their beliefs may have changed - their actions will remain the same.
and this is the really scary part!

The exact same thing happens when people break free from religion. There are far more doubters and atheists in the closet than there are open atheists. And think about how much more difficult it is to come out as an atheist than to come out as no longer liking Coca-Cola. You're not likely to get shunned by your friends or disowned by your family for the latter.

 

[snakelegs]

And perhaps that guy in the assylum really IS napoleon.

Regardless of if they are right or not, they teach an ideology that is offensive and dangerous (you agreed to this above). Ideologies that are offensive and dangerous should be fought and resisted, and we should save young minds from falling into them.. It doesn't matter if we are talking about white supremecy, fascism, or christianity. Have you seen that now infamous documentary "Jesus Camp". Would you make no effort to reach and rescue such young minds if you could?

how do you account for the many people who read the same holy book, and are not affected by all the horrendous stuff, but moved by the positive stuff and inspired to be better people, more compassionate to other living beings?

I do it for a variety of reasons. Barney shares one with me (see the post directly above your last one). I was a psychology major in my undergrad. I studied social cognition and a part of that is the psychology of group think and of religion. Living where I do I don't have much access to muslim minds other than here.

Another reason to read islamic boards is concern and investigation. After all the 9/11 hype, Islam became a more interesting religion to me. Is it as horrible as the US media makes it out to be? Does it repress women? Does it lead to terrorism? Is it as negative, dangerous, and offensive a mindset as Christianity? Should I fight it? Should I protect muslims when they are verbally attacked by Christians (I can identify with them when they are)? And I have discovered that while some dangers about Islam the west talks about are exagerated or flatly wrong (and its amazing just how wrong), others are never mentioned.

Another reason is the one you point to as the only reason - to possibly reach some people and help them. That is not my main reason for being here and I expect it isn't anybody's because it is rarely effective, but it can and does happen from time to time. Not everybody who reads boards such as these, especially in a "comparative religion section", are die hard believers. Some lurkers who don't post are doubters and if I can help them progress, why would I not?

you are on a mission! :giggling:
seriously, thanks for your honest answer.

I think there is a good chance that they are trying to reconcile their internal beliefs (racism) with the external pressures of political correctness. They may be telling you what they think you want to hear so they can appear in a good light to you.

possibly. i am thinking of a couple of old people from the south. they confessed that they were unable to change their thinking about blacks but nevertheless accepted the premise that discrimination was wrong and at least tried to judge each individual as an individual.

There are people who get as caught up in and as victimized by advertising and other group think (trends) as those who get caught up in religion.



What about when both are involved? Televangelists who swindle people out of their money. Pat Robertson, Jerry Falwell, Jimmy Swaggart, Peter Popoff (my personal favourite), Jack Van Impe. How do you feel about talking to their victims? Is it different than how you feel about the victims of other frauds?

this combo is frightening indeed. i never heard of peter popoff (name makes me laugh). it has also armed christian missionaries with huge piles of money to go to poor countries and buy people (the missionary industry). i have some hindu friends who are very upset at this practice in india. in addition to adopting a foreign religion, they adopt a negative view of their own culture.

The exact same thing happens when people break free from religion. There are far more doubters and atheists in the closet than there are open atheists. And think about how much more difficult it is to come out as an atheist than to come out as no longer liking Coca-Cola. You're not likely to get shunned by your friends or disowned by your family for the latter.

i would question whether the atheist who spends time arguing with religious people has really broken free from his religion or is just practicing its polar opposite.
you are right though - in many parts of the country, you keep quiet if you're an atheist.
i consider myself very lucky to have been born neither in to a religion or in to an "anti-religion".

 

[wilberhum]

how do you account for the many people who read the same holy book, and are not affected by all the horrendous stuff, but moved by the positive stuff and inspired to be better people, more compassionate to other living beings?

People always find justification for what they want to do.

Want to harm those that have harmed you, an eye for an eye.
Don't want to harm them, turn the other cheek.

So I can do what I want and still follow the "Good Book".

 

[Pygoscelis]

how do you account for the many people who read the same holy book, and are not affected by all the horrendous stuff, but moved by the positive stuff

Most of them have never read the bible. Seriously. Getting these folks to read it is one very effective way of turning them away from the religion. Its amazing how many times I have seen it happen. You'd think they'd have read their book, but no. And they are shocked to see what it ACTUALLY SAYS. Others will turn a blind eye and ignore the obvious horribleness in their bible, prefering to pretend it isn't there.

I actually know one self-professed christian who it turns out supports everything polar opposite to his religion and his god's commandments but doesn't seem to either realize it or want to admit it to himself. He himself is a homosexual as well and sees no conflict between that and his faith.

you are on a mission! :giggling:

Not really. You seem to be lacking reading comprehension, or you're being dishonest and trying to force words and ideas into me.

i never heard of peter popoff

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff is pretty accurate.

He is the guy who will heal you with his miracle water (really from his tap) that he'll send to you if you send his ministry a "donation". He will also bring you good business fortune and pretty much anything else you've ever wanted - so long as you support his ministry and send your donations (which increase over time).

Hundreds of americans have fallen for his ridiculus fraud, a fraud which SHOULD be obvious to anybody not desperate and completely brainwashed by religion.

So what do you think about his victims as compared to the victims of a regular secular scam? (like those people who call up old ladies and tell them they've won a million dollars and just have to send the access fee or whatever and it'll be theirs).

Does it being a religious scam make you more hesitant to try to save the victims of it?

Does it being a religious scam make you less willing to call out for prosecution of those who practice it?

If yes, you're right in the mainstream american view. Popoff, though completely exposed as a fraud long ago (which was highly publicized on Johny Carson's show) was never prosecuted. He has never paid a fine or anything as far as I'm aware. His scam "ministry" went bankrupt for a while following the exposee but he bounced back pretty quick and is right back at his old activities. You can buy his "miracle water" today.

We should not not respect frauds and hate and bigotry because those speaking it shroud it in "religion", but many many of us do just that. It is an idiotic unquestioning respect our society has for all things "religious" that does that. Those magic words "Jesus" and "faith" are CONSTANTLY being used to make criticisms taboo and to win cheap support. Politicians do it all the time. It needs to stop.

i would question whether the atheist who spends time arguing with religious people has really broken free from his religion or is just practicing its polar opposite.

There is a backlash phenomenon when people first break free from their former religion, that is true. Often they are angry at those who have misled them for so long and often they will become quite passionate and lash out and argue with believers, just as a believers do. They usually mellow with time and join the rest of us though.

All atheists SHOULD be able to see the dangers of group think and religious programming, simply by being constantly surrounded by it. And many atheists do think where possible action should be taken to combat it, especially when the danger becomes immediate.

you are right though - in many parts of the country, you keep quiet if you're an atheist.

And that needs to change. And it is, slowly but surely, even in the deepest sectors of the bible belt.

i consider myself very lucky to have been born neither in to a religion or in to an "anti-religion".

I was born atheist (as are all people) and my family only dabbled in religion. My father I actually suspect was an atheist but went along with religion to please my mother. My mother was one of those feel-good christians from the top paragraph above who never read the bible and followed exactly zero of its directoins. She just wanted to believe to have a warm fuzzy and a sense of belonging I think.

 

[zarhad]

See personally I cant relate I had two parents who wernt really religious, we ate halal at home that was about it, unfortinatly after my grandfather passed away my father said he was "athiest" it was very difficult for him, but i dont condone him rejecting religion...
now the funny thing is personally i have always believed in Allah with out either of my parents even mentioning the word God in our house, even when my father proclaimined other wise i didnt believe him...I was actually mad at him, and it hurt our relationship.

My mother being a non muslim and my father being muslim people are generally suprised with how religious i am...i always strive to learn more and be better as most do but im diffrent then everyone in my family.

none of them pray, or fast or give charity and i try my best to do all of them.
so personally i cant understand agnostic being "unsure of what they believed" because even as young as 5 or 6 i can remeber talking to god in my own way ( i didnt learn to pray untill high school) and feeling the presence of allah all around me. I look at the wonderious and beautiful things round me and wonder how someone could be "unsure" or even so nieve to believe there is no higher being (tobah)

I also had a religious dream and a near death experence that would make most non believers roll there eyes...but i know what happened i know what i feel and i am not just conforming to anthing im really truly confident in my beliefs and the feelings i have and research ive done

 

[snakelegs]

Most of them have never read the bible. Seriously. Getting these folks to read it is one very effective way of turning them away from the religion. Its amazing how many times I have seen it happen. You'd think they'd have read their book, but no. And they are shocked to see what it ACTUALLY SAYS. Others will turn a blind eye and ignore the obvious horribleness in their bible, prefering to pretend it isn't there.

I actually know one self-professed christian who it turns out supports everything polar opposite to his religion and his god's commandments but doesn't seem to either realize it or want to admit it to himself. He himself is a homosexual as well and sees no conflict between that and his faith.

you're right that many have not even read the book. still, you will find that 2 people given the same material, a book, a lecture etc. will focus on different aspects of it over other aspects, since everyone has filters. so the individual's "receptors" will determine what parts he hears/reads.

Not really. You seem to be lacking reading comprehension, or you're being dishonest and trying to force words and ideas into me.

i am half joking, but you are doing something similar to a missionary in that you are trying to change people's beliefs. so i use the word in the broad sense of the term. maybe it is incorrect. you believe that you are right and they are misguided and it is your duty to enlighten them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Popoff is pretty accurate.

He is the guy who will heal you with his miracle water (really from his tap) that he'll send to you if you send his ministry a "donation". He will also bring you good business fortune and pretty much anything else you've ever wanted - so long as you support his ministry and send your donations (which increase over time).

Hundreds of americans have fallen for his ridiculus fraud, a fraud which SHOULD be obvious to anybody not desperate and completely brainwashed by religion.

So what do you think about his victims as compared to the victims of a regular secular scam? (like those people who call up old ladies and tell them they've won a million dollars and just have to send the access fee or whatever and it'll be theirs).

Does it being a religious scam make you more hesitant to try to save the victims of it?

Does it being a religious scam make you less willing to call out for prosecution of those who practice it?

personally, i am much too busy in my own little world. however, you are right - in theory there is no difference here between religious scams and other scams. the gullible make good prey.

If yes, you're right in the mainstream american view. Popoff, though completely exposed as a fraud long ago (which was highly publicized on Johny Carson's show) was never prosecuted. He has never paid a fine or anything as far as I'm aware. His scam "ministry" went bankrupt for a while following the exposee but he bounced back pretty quick and is right back at his old activities. You can buy his "miracle water" today.

We should not not respect frauds and hate and bigotry because those speaking it shroud it in "religion", but many many of us do just that. It is an idiotic unquestioning respect our society has for all things "religious" that does that. Those magic words "Jesus" and "faith" are CONSTANTLY being used to make criticisms taboo and to win cheap support. Politicians do it all the time. It needs to stop.

i agree. are we talking about the use of religion for selfish gain or about the entire religion itself?
mind control and manipulation goes on at all levels - and i think it is right to fight this. (tho i am not a fighter).

There is a backlash phenomenon when people first break free from their former religion, that is true. Often they are angry at those who have misled them for so long and often they will become quite passionate and lash out and argue with believers, just as a believers do. They usually mellow with time and join the rest of us though.

All atheists SHOULD be able to see the dangers of group think and religious programming, simply by being constantly surrounded by it. And many atheists do think where possible action should be taken to combat it, especially when the danger becomes immediate.

well, this makes sense of course. still, i say the culprit is groupthink and programming and religion may be a symptom of that, but i don't think it's the cause.

And that needs to change. And it is, slowly but surely, even in the deepest sectors of the bible belt.



I was born atheist (as are all people) and my family only dabbled in religion. My father I actually suspect was an atheist but went along with religion to please my mother. My mother was one of those feel-good christians from the top paragraph above who never read the bible and followed exactly zero of its directoins. She just wanted to believe to have a warm fuzzy and a sense of belonging I think.

in general, i would agree - these things do need to change. yet i think there are people who follow a religious teaching not because some cleric said so, but because his experience confirms it, it makes sense to him intuitively etc.
it is difficult for me to discuss this because altho i believe in god, i am anti-religion. but something in me just bristles at preaching - be it in the name of religion, politics or laundry detergent.
i think you and i share many views. i just don't agree with you that one should criticize and pass judgment on religious people. i have known many who were fine human beings and far from morons, who questioned and contemplated. so when some atheists say stuff like god doesn't exist and you are deluded - this seems as wrong to me as a christian missionary telling me that i am blind because i don't share his belief in jesus.
so in the end, on this aspect, we will have to disagree.

 

[Ebtisweetsam]

So if an agnostic believs in God, does he believe in Life after Death?

 

[sevgi]

So if an agnostic believs in God, does he believe in Life after Death?

not that i know of...life after death is a production of faith...in islam...it is one of the six pillars...

for agnostics..the only belief they have is that there exists a God....

perhaps it also falls into individual perceptions...there are no guidlines to being an agnostic..so views or beliefs of life after death may vary.

salams.

 

[ranma1/2]

So if an agnostic believs in God, does he believe in Life after Death?

Yes, No, maybe.
That is a seperate subject.

 

[poga]

I know this may sound dumb- its confusing enough to work out the difference between a christain and a catholic..... but what is a agnostic?

agnostic is the person who agonise and suffers with belief and disbelief
they try to understand the faith with knowledge and logic alone and knowledge and logic needs supporing evidence while sign of ALLAH is every where but ALLAH is AL BATIN therefore faithful are he who believes the unseen ALLAH