What is Gaza?

[Suomipoika]

Perhaps you can not see that supporting an idea and supporting a group fighting for the idea are not the same. I, like Bro. aamirsaab, support what Hamas is fighting for, but I do not support Hamas or the methods they use.

Likewise I supported Bush's idea of freeing Iraq from Saddam, but I do not support Bush nor the method he used.

So why isnt methods that Id figure both of you support (peaceful negotiations) something that keeps Palestine on map but instead it is the methods that you dont support (violence, rocket attacks on civilians) that keep it on map?

 

[Woodrow]

So why isnt methods that Id figure both of you support (peaceful negotiations) something that keeps Palestine on map but instead it is the methods that you dont support (violence, rocket attacks on civilians) that keep it on map?

When have both side ever sincerely entered into peaceful negotiations?

I think you can blame the media and the mentality of most people for that. It seems violence gets noticed, and peace doesn't.

Yes, a loud noise has to be made to make the plight of the people of Gaza known. But this loud voice can come from peaceful demonstrations, publicity of the atrocities committed by the Zionists, selective boycotts of products that will actually hurt Israel financially, financial assistance for beneficial projects in Gaza, ie Schools, hospitals, housing, industrial development etc.

 

[sister herb]

Dear Suomipoika

by Palestinian Basic Law, that person called Mahmud Abbas has no right to negotiate about anything by Palestinian state with zionists as he is no president after 9th of January of 2009.

After that by law he is just a citizen of Palestine.

Article 36

The term of the presidency of the National Authority shall be the interim phase, after which the President shall be elected in accordance with the law.


Article 37
The office of the President shall be considered vacant in any of the following cases:

a. Death;
b. Resignation submitted to the Palestinian Legislative Council, if accepted by two-thirds of its members;

c. Loss of legal capacity, as per a ruling issued by the High Constitutional Court and subsequently approved by a majority of two-thirds of the members of the Legislative Council.

If the office of the President of the National Authority becomes vacant due to any of the above cases, the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council shall temporarily assume the powers and duties of the Presidency of the National Authority for a period not to exceed sixty (60) days, during which free and direct elections to elect a new President shall take place in accordance with the Palestinian Election Law.

 

[sister herb]

the Speaker of the Palestinian Legislative Council is Dr. Dweik.

By law he should to be president right now. He is in political prosoner in zionist jail.

 

[Suomipoika]

When have both side ever sincerely entered into peaceful negotiations?

Id imagine quite a few times, but thats besides the point. The point is why something you (well, you agreed with aamirsaab) claim to condemn, violence, and not sincere negotiations is the key for Palestine staying on map? All Hamas has to do is to recognice Israels right to exist and actually be sincere about permanent peace not ceasefire. The heroic road block is acting like stubborn idiots. Yet Israel gets blastered for not trying to "sincerely" negotiate.

How sincere are you (and aamirsaab or even me due to some Israeli actions) really for peace since you let (or even accept) your sweet idea to be associated with something that you supposedly condemn?

 

[جوري]

EDIT

let's see what if Hamas didn't exist


If Hamas Didn't Exist

January 10, 2009 By Jennifer Loewenstein


Jennifer Loewenstein's ZSpace Page



Let us get one thing perfectly straight. If the wholesale mutilation and degradation of the Gaza Strip is going to continue; if Israel's will is at one with that of the United States; if the European Union, Russia, the United Nations and all the international legal agencies and organizations spread across the globe are going to continue to sit by like hollow mannequins doing nothing but making repeated "calls" for a "ceasefire" on "both sides"; if the cowardly, obsequious and supine Arab States are going to stand by watching their brethren get slaughtered by the hour while the world's bullying Superpower eyes them threateningly from Washington lest they say something a little to their disliking; then let us at least tell the truth why this hell on earth is taking place.

The state terror unleashed from the skies and on the ground against the Gaza Strip as we speak has nothing to do with Hamas. It has nothing to do with "Terror". It has nothing to do with the long-term "security" of the Jewish State or with Hizbullah or Syria or Iran except insofar as it is aggravating the conditions that have led up to this crisis today. It has nothing to do with some conjured-up "war" - a cynical and overused euphemism that amounts to little more the wholesale enslavement of any nation that dares claim its sovereign rights; that dares assert that its resources are its own; that doesn't want one of the Empire's obscene military bases sitting on its cherished land.

This crisis has nothing to do with freedom, democracy, justice or peace. It is not about Mahmoud Zahhar or Khalid Mash'al or Ismail Haniyeh. It is not about Hassan Nasrallah or Mahmoud Ahmadinejad. These are all circumstantial players who have gained a role in the current tempest only now that the situation has been allowed for 61 years to develop into the catastrophe that it is today. The Islamist factor has colored and will continue to color the atmosphere of the crisis; it has enlisted the current leaders and mobilized wide sectors of the world's population. The primary symbols today are Islamic - the mosques, the Qur'an, the references to the Prophet Muhammad and to Jihad. But these symbols could disappear and the impasse would continue.

There was a time when Fatah and the PFLP held the day; when few Palestinians wanted anything to do with Islamist policies and politics. Such politics have nothing to do with primitive rockets being fired over the border, or smuggling tunnels and black-market weapons; just as Arafat's Fatah had little to do with stones and suicide bombings. The associations are coincidental; the creations of a given political environment. They are the result of something entirely different than what the lying politicians and their analysts are telling you. They have become part of the landscape of human events in the modern Middle East today; but incidentals wholly as lethal, or as recalcitrant, deadly, angry or incorrigible could just as soon have been in their places.

Strip away the clichés and the vacuous newspeak blaring out across the servile media and its pathetic corps of voluntary state servants in the Western world and what you will find is the naked desire for hegemony; for power over the weak and dominion over the world's wealth. Worse yet you will find that the selfishness, the hatred and indifference, the racism and bigotry, the egotism and hedonism that we try so hard to cover up with our sophisticated jargon, our refined academic theories and models actually help to guide our basest and ugliest desires. The callousness with which we in indulge in them all are endemic to our very culture; thriving here like flies on a corpse.

Strip away the current symbols and language of the victims of our selfish and devastating whims and you will find the simple, impassioned and unaffected cries of the downtrodden; of the ‘wretched of the earth' begging you to cease your cold aggression against their children and their homes; their families and their villages; begging you to leave them alone to have their fish and their bread, their oranges, their olives and their thyme; asking you first politely and then with increasing disbelief why you cannot let them live undisturbed on the land of their ancestors; unexploited, free of the fear of expulsion; of ravishment and devastation; free of permits and roadblocks and checkpoints and crossings; of monstrous concrete walls, guard towers, concrete bunkers, and barbed wire; of tanks and prisons and torture and death. Why is life without these policies and instruments of hell impossible?

The answer is because Israel has no intention of allowing a viable, sovereign Palestinian state on its borders. It had no intention of allowing it in 1948 when it grabbed 24 per cent more land than what it was allotted legally, if unfairly, by UN Resolution 181. It had no intention of allowing it throughout the massacres and ploys of the 1950s. It had no intention of allowing two states when it conquered the remaining 22 per cent of historic Palestine in 1967 and reinterpreted UN Security Council Resolution 242 to its own liking despite the overwhelming international consensus stating that Israel would receive full international recognition within secure and recognized borders if it withdrew from the lands it had only recently occupied.

It had no intention of acknowledging Palestinian national rights at the United Nations in 1976, when—alone with the United States—it voted against a two-state solution. It had no intention of allowing a comprehensive peace settlement when Egypt stood ready to deliver but received, and obediently accepted, a separate peace exclusive of the rights of Palestinians and the remaining peoples of the region. It had no intention of working toward a just two-state solution in 1978 or 1982 when it invaded, fire-bombed, blasted and bulldozed Beirut so that it might annex the West Bank without hassle. It had no intention of granting a Palestinian state in 1987 when the first Intifada spread across occupied Palestine, into the Diaspora and the into the spirits of the global dispossessed, or when Israel deliberately aided the newly formed Hamas movement so that it might undermine the strength of the more secular-nationalist factions.

Israel had no intention of granting a Palestinian state at Madrid or at Oslo where the PLO was superseded by the quivering, quisling Palestinian Authority, too many of whose cronies grasped at the wealth and prestige it gave them at the expense of their own kin. As Israel beamed into the world's satellites and microphones its desire for peace and a two-state solution, it more than doubled the number of illegal Jewish settlements on the ground in the West Bank and around East Jerusalem, annexing them as it built and continues to build a superstructure of bypass roads and highways over the remaining, severed cities and villages of earthly Palestine. It has annexed the Jordan valley, the international border of Jordan, expelling any ‘locals' inhabiting that land. It speaks with a viper's tongue over the multiple amputee of Palestine whose head shall soon be severed from its body in the name of justice, peace and security.

Through the home demolitions, the assaults on civil society that attempted to cast Palestinian history and culture into a chasm of oblivion; through the unspeakable destruction of the refugee camp sieges and infrastructure bombardments of the second Intifada, through assassinations and summary executions, past the grandiose farce of disengagement and up to the nullification of free, fair and democratic Palestinian elections Israel has made its view known again and again in the strongest possible language, the language of military might, of threats, intimidation, harassment, defamation and degradation.

Israel, with the unconditional and approving support of the United States, has made it dramatically clear to the entire world over and over and over again, repeating in action after action that it will accept no viable Palestinian state next to its borders. What will it take for the rest of us to hear? What will it take to end the criminal silence of the ‘international community'? What will it take to see past the lies and indoctrination to what is taking place before us day after day in full view of the eyes of the world? The more horrific the actions on the ground, the more insistent are the words of peace. To listen and watch without hearing or seeing allows the indifference, the ignorance and complicity to continue and deepens with each grave our collective shame.

The destruction of Gaza has nothing to do with Hamas. Israel will accept no authority in the Palestinian territories that it does not ultimately control. Any individual, leader, faction or movement that fails to accede to Israel's demands or that seeks genuine sovereignty and the equality of all nations in the region; any government or popular movement that demands the applicability of international humanitarian law and of the universal declaration of human rights for its own people will be unacceptable for the Jewish State. Those dreaming of one state must be forced to ask themselves what Israel would do to a population of 4 million Palestinians within its borders when it commits on a daily, if not hourly basis, crimes against their collective humanity while they live alongside its borders? What will suddenly make the raison d'etre, the self-proclaimed purpose of Israel's reason for being change if the Palestinian territories are annexed to it outright?

The lifeblood of the Palestinian National Movement flows through the streets of Gaza today. Every drop that falls waters the soil of vengeance, bitterness and hatred not only in Palestine but across the Middle East and much of the world. We do have a choice over whether or not this should continue. Now is the time to make it.

Jennifer Loewenstein is the Associate Director of the Middle East Studies Program at the University of Wisconsin-Madison. She can be reached at [email protected]

 

[sister herb]

All Hamas has to do is to recognice Israels right to exist

Has zionists state ever recognice Palestine right to exist? Zionists already occupied Palestine more than 60 years. Why ask victim to recognice that those criminals had right to take lives and land, kill and rape, not ask criminals to admit they crimes?

Why blame all the time that victim is criminal in this game?

http://www.uruknet.de/?p=m36111&hd=&size=1&l=e

Some interesting quotes about Palestine/Palestinians:

http://www.palestineremembered.com/Acre/Famous-Zionist-Quotes/Story637.html

 

[Woodrow]

Id imagine quite a few times, but thats besides the point. The point is why something you (well, you agreed with aamirsaab) claim to condemn, violence, and not sincere negotiations is the key for Palestine staying on map? All Hamas has to do is to recognice Israels right to exist and actually be sincere about permanent peace not ceasefire. The heroic road block is acting like stubborn idiots. Yet Israel gets blastered for not trying to "sincerely" negotiate.

How sincere are you (and aamirsaab or even me due to some Israeli actions) really for peace since you let (or even accept) your sweet idea to be associated with something that you supposedly condemn?

Do you understand the word both? I said BOTH sides need to be sincere.

sometimes I feel Hamas works for Israel. Hamas has provided excuses for Israel to act as Barbarians. Do you find the current carnage in Gaza to be justified? Apparently Israel does.

UNITED NATIONS – Hundreds of millions of dollars in humanitarian aid will be needed immediately to help Gaza's 1.4 million people and billions of dollars will be required to rebuild its shattered buildings and infrastructure, the U.N. humanitarian chief said Monday.

John Holmes said some neighborhoods have been almost totally destroyed, there are huge medical and food needs, sewage is flowing in some streets, and unexploded ordnance is posing a big problem.

While 100,000 people had their running water restored on Sunday, 400,000 still have no water, electricity is available for less than half the day, and 100,000 people are displaced from their homes, Holmes said.

"It may not be very clear who actually won this conflict, if such a concept means anything in Gaza, but I think it's pretty clear who lost and that was the civilian population of Gaza..." Holmes told reporters at U.N. headquarters.

Source: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/un_un_gaza_aid;_ylt=AoYwfL2HNmegU6E3Hoo.HnwLewgF

 

[Whatsthepoint]

does it really make a difference if the refugees were born in Gaza or are the children of Refugees that were exiled from what was Palestine?

Yes it does in concern to my original post, it's not Israel's fault Gaza is an overpopulated area.

It is difficult to find sources that specifically tell how many of those listed as refugees are actual refugees, or refugees born of refugees that had come to gaza. I believe it would be safe to say all refugees over the age of 60 were not born in Gaza. And all under 14 were born in Gaza. the 15-64 age group is going to be hard to calculate. But I believe a fair assumption would be 50/50

I'm gonna look into it.
I doubt it's 50/50 because the majority of Palestinians left Israel in 1948.

 

[Woodrow]

Yes it does in concern to my original post, it's not Israel's fault Gaza is an overpopulated area.

Whose fault is it they are even in Gaza. The parents of the Children born in Gaza, would have much rather had their children in their original homes.

 

[sister herb]

It is "Isreals'" fault that Gaza is overpopulated area. Many residents there are children or grandchildren of refugees by those whose zionists deported from they own land, Palestine, at 1948.

By international laws, they still have right to return to they own lands, it is just same what those racist zionists are saying.

 

[Suomipoika]

Do you understand the word both? I said BOTH sides need to be sincere.

sometimes I feel Hamas works for Israel. Hamas has provided excuses for Israel to act as Barbarians. Do you find the current carnage in Gaza to be justified? Apparently Israel does.

Ok then, I was wrong.

As for the current carnage in Gaza. I have very hard time seeing what Israel should do differently. It has been attacked from Gaza, just because their enemy is dug in among civilians should not be a reason why they cannot strike back. Especially since this enemy keeps repeatedly targetting Israeli civilians. The situation in Gaza is horrible but I cant fault Israel for defending itself. People seem to suggest that if evil monsters like the members of Hamas hide among enough civilians you cannot fight against the bad guys. All the blame lays on Hamas for breaking the ceasefire. Why did they need 3 weeks of Israel bombing Gaza to resume the ceasefire? Why couldnt they in december keep the ceasefire? What on earth was so heroic and road blocky to need this month of bombing and war before agreeing to it again? I can only wonder how exactly did this action lead to Palestine staying on map any better than Fatah way of negotiating.

 

[sister herb]

It has been attacked from Gaza, just because their enemy is dug in among civilians should not be a reason why they cannot strike back.

One more typical lie of zionists; who could possible give any kind of proves this really is happening? Claim is similar than during last massacre of Gaza - as zionists claimed that resistance is keeping they missiles and weapons in the schools, mosques, hospitals, universities, kindercarters etc. Unfortunately there wasn´t any proves for this - just only "word" of zionist attackers.

You seemly read your news only from western news agency whose get they "information" from zionists propaganda.

Idea of "have occupiers right to fight back when they victims try to protect themselves" is interesting. Have only occupier right to protect themselves, not an occupied to ask even they legal rights like live in peace and freedom in they own land?

Mostly Palestinian resistance have also attacked by they missiles to open areas or to military areas, not against civilians.

 

[جوري]

One more typical lie of zionists; who could possible give any kind of proves this really is happening? Claim is similar than during last massacre of Gaza - as zionists claimed that resistance is keeping they missiles and weapons in the schools, mosques, hospitals, universities, kindercarters etc. Unfortunately there wasn´t any proves for this - just only "word" of zionist attackers.

You seemly read your news only from western news agency whose get they "information" from zionists propaganda.

Idea of "have occupiers right to fight back when they victims try to protect themselves" is interesting. Have only occupier right to protect themselves, not an occupied to ask even they legal rights like live in peace and freedom in they own land?

It is more selective reading than anything, for even their own news which cows to the zionist influence can't blind itself fast enough to the injustice carried out there..

I am at a loss as to why we keep people as such on board really when I think they are best suited for Jihad/Pipes/dawkin type forums where they can slowely simmer in their ignorance, hatred and stupidity!..

sob7an Allah

 

[Woodrow]

Ok then, I was wrong.

As for the current carnage in Gaza. I have very hard time seeing what Israel should do differently. It has been attacked from Gaza, just because their enemy is dug in among civilians should not be a reason why they cannot strike back. Especially since this enemy keeps repeatedly targetting Israeli civilians. The situation in Gaza is horrible but I cant fault Israel for defending itself. People seem to suggest that if evil monsters like the members of Hamas hide among enough civilians you cannot fight against the bad guys. All the blame lays on Hamas for breaking the ceasefire. Why did they need 3 weeks of Israel bombing Gaza to resume the ceasefire? Why couldnt they in december keep the ceasefire? What on earth was so heroic and road blocky to need this month of bombing and war before agreeing to it again? I can only wonder how exactly did this action lead to Palestine staying on map any better than Fatah way of negotiating.

Having been a military man myself I firmly believe that the most humane war is fought with sufficient strength to render the target inoperable. However, one bullet beyond the necessary stregth is overkill and becomes a barbaric path of vengence.

Israel and most of the world was/is aware that most people in Gaza are unarmed. the ones with arms are poorly armed with mostly antiquated obsolete weapons.

Israel has very advanced weapons and the ability to almost surgically remove any threat without jeopardizing the lives of the innocent. This was overkill, with too much firepower concentrated on too small of an area.

I do not justify Israel attacking Gaza, but I do have some understanding that they wanted to stop the rocket attacks, although the rocket attacks were more nuisance, than danger. However, this was not an attack to stop rocket attacks, it was a blatant all out effort to obliterate Gaza.

I can only wonder how exactly did this action lead to Palestine staying on map any better than Fatah way of negotiating

It didn't. I have always said that the actions of Hamas were counter productive and could only hurt Gaza.

It is the freedom of Palestinians I would like to live long enough to see. Hamas also has a goal to free the Palestinians. I agree with that, but I do not agree with the methods used by Hamas. I also agree with the goals of Fatah in the West Bank, but do not always agree with their methods either.

 

[Suomipoika]

However, one bullet beyond the necessary stregth is overkill and becomes a barbaric path of vengence.

Except that even after the 3 weeks of bombing, after Israel had declared ceasefire, Hamas fired more rockets into Israel. They didnt even go up to the necessary strength to remove the threath when the threath is still able to fire at them.

I do not justify Israel attacking Gaza, but I do have some understanding that they wanted to stop the rocket attacks, although the rocket attacks were more nuisance, than danger. However, this was not an attack to stop rocket attacks, it was a blatant all out effort to obliterate Gaza.

The rocket attacks kill and wound people, how is that not a danger?

 

[Trumble]

Israel has very advanced weapons and the ability to almost surgically remove any threat without jeopardizing the lives of the innocent.

I don't believe anybody currently has that ability when applied to an area like Gaza (I say 'an area'; it is unique). Even if they did it would require precise and accurate intelligence about the location of the targets we have have no reason to believe the Israelis would have had. The Israelis knew they would kill civilians. So did Hamas.

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Whose fault is it they are even in Gaza. The parents of the Children born in Gaza, would have much rather had their children in their original homes.

I'm sure they would, what I'm saying is that it was their own choice to have such large families in such a small area.

 

[Woodrow]

I don't believe anybody currently has that ability when applied to an area like Gaza (I say 'an area'; it is unique). Even if they did it would require precise and accurate intelligence about the location of the targets we have have no reason to believe the Israelis would have had. The Israelis knew they would kill civilians. So did Hamas.

I will agree that Gaza is unique. The entire region all 360 Square KM is basically a residential area with a few spots the size of a small town park being called rural. Any munitions that have a blast radius of over 10 feet will endanger non-combatants. does one go into such a region with massive fire power unless the primary intent is to kill the entire population.

Now, let us look at the "Danger" the Qassam and Katyusha rockets posed:

The range is very limited. The qassams are home made and not much more than sky rockets in metal skins. The range I believe is no more than 1 KM. The katyushas although antiques do pose a greater danger the most modern Katyusha has a range of almost 4 miles. It seems the most humane action Israel could have taken would have been to declare a buffer zone extending 5 miles out from the Gaza border and outlaw the building of residences in that area. this would have rendered any rockets from Gaza useless.

I know it would be unfair to ask some Jewish settlers to move out of their homes. But what happened to the Palestinians that got kicked out of their homes in 1948 and forced to go to Gaza, is fair..

My point being Israel had options to disable the threat without needing to level Gaza.

 

[sister herb]

Whose are civilians in Gaza? By International Laws for example polices are civilians (at the first victims of massacre zionists attacked).

Are civilians only women and children under 16 or 18 years? Every others are then what?

For last idea all men in Gaza over 16 or 18 are not civilians? Just same if they have military training, any connections to resistance forces or weapon in they hand... are they non-civilians?

Whose are civilians in zionists state? Most of they citizens have military training. If parents keep they kids in illecal settlemets in the stolen lands like Sderot, kids are on they responsibility.