What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?

[morrissey]

As requested, I have begun this query as a new thread:

Hi Ansar, thankyou for linking to this site from J4J....

Above you quote that the Quran has added to what the Jews have in their Torah. The Jews were commanded not to add or subtract from it, yet these differences in your quote above mean possibly 2 things: 1 - The Jews re-wrote their Torah, or 2 - The Quran goes against G-d's commandment not to add or subtract from His Torah. What proof do you have that the Jews re-wrote their Torah? (as in physical/archaeological, without a doubt proof). Someone (even if they claim to be a prophet) just making a 'claim' that they did is just that - an unsubstantiated claim.


Do you know how the Jews have recorded their Torah word-perfect through the centuries, meticulously ensuring each one is identical? (http://www.torah.net/eng/kids/know/torah.htm) Millions of Jews around the world (obviously the majority of whom have never met, so therefore it is impossible for them to conspire) have identical copies of the Torah - if there was a difference it might be in the spelling of a word with the same meaning (eg color/colour in english), and I think the most differences they have ever found between 2 Sefer Torahs is about 9 spelling differences, as I have given in the example of the english word above. If a Torah Scroll is found to have an error, it is forbidden to use it, it is not 'kosher' and has to be religiously disposed of. It is useless.

Why, therefore, is it claimed by your religion that the Jews have corrupted their Torah? From my experience, they are obsessed to the point of almost neurotic that their Torah doesnt become corrupted.

I am not Jewish by the way, I am an ex-christian who has been seeking her true Creator and discovered the pathway to Him through the Teachings of Judaism.

Best wishes
Rebecca

 

[morrissey]

http://scheinerman.net/judaism/synagogue/torah.html#how

Also describes the way a Sefer Torah is made.

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Well for starters I would like to make a few points:

It is not my intention to offend any Jewish or Christian members through this discussion. I doubt that there is any knowledgeable scholar of the Tanakh or Bible who would claim that it has been preserved. If I do offend anyone, please forgive me as it was not my intention. My belief in this matter is that the present day scriptures have been altered.

Before we begin this discussion, we need to understand some points. What are the attributes of God? How can we distinguish between God's words and those of men. We should have certain expectations of God's revelation correct?

And if anyone wishes to jump ahead in the subject they can take a look at the article posted here:
http://www.islamicboard.com/showpost.php?p=15935&postcount=12

Although I intend to take a more in-depth look at the subject.

 

[morrissey]

I read such things as this: http://www.beingjewish.com/unchanged/true_mesorah.html
and I can see how it would be absurd that anything could have been changed.

A snippet from that link:

So: How do we know that the Tradition, that is, the Laws and other Teachings of the Torah, have been transmitted correctly?

Let us examine the method of Transmission of the Torah that Jews have used, as well as other relevant factors. We will see that the way the Torah has been transmitted through the ages makes errors and falsifications impossible.

The first thing to note is that the Torah is not the property of a few people. It is not esoteric or secret knowledge kept in the hands of a secret organization. Every Jew is expected to study Torah. We each have our individual abilities and gifts, and we are all therefore expected to study Torah at the highest level we can attain. (And before I get letters about this, it applies to women too. Women are required to study -- at the very least -- all the Laws that they must fulfill, and today much, much more study and knowledge is expected of them than in years past.)

Some people think the Talmud was written by a few Rabbis plotting together in an attic somewhere, deciding what Jews should do and not do. This is a radical error. It is completely false, and not even close to fact by any means. It was not composed, but recorded, by thousands upon thousands of Rabbis and students working in public, openly discussing all the issues. This ensured the highest safety against errors.

We are a nation of Torah. We have always been, and we always will be. There were times of great oppression, when Torah study was made difficult by the gentile governments around us, but through it all we stuck to it. And not individually -- but en masse. Torah has always been taught publicly. Not, as some seem to think, one little old Rabbi in a basement or dungeon teaching one decrepit geek of a student, neither of whom has any idea of how the common man lives.

The truth is that Rabbis taught the Torah in public, with other Rabbis at their sides, and with thousands of students learning and asking challenging questions. These were Rabbis who usually had jobs in what some people call "the real world," and they came from all sectors of Jewish society. Some were poor, some were rich, but all of them lived the Torah they taught, and lived in the world around them like everyone else.

The Talmud tells us that Rabbi Akiva had twenty-four thousand students. He was not unusual. The Talmud doesn't say he had an inordinately large number of students. No, quite the contrary. In the Torah Academies of Israel and Babylon there were learned Rabbis sitting together in a semi-circle, with all their thousands of students sitting behind them. And the Talmud teaches that every Rabbi should create many, many students (Avos 1:1).

The Talmud says that for a while Rabbi Gamliel of Yavneh would allow entry to the highest Academy in Yavneh only to some students. But then one day that was changed, and they allowed all students to enter. That day, says the Talmud, they had to add seven thousand more benches to the academy! We're not talking about private study here. We're talking about study that involved all the people. An entire nation.

The Talmud says (Sanhedrin 91b) that whoever refuses to teach Torah to another Jew is stealing his inheritance from him. The Torah says, "The Torah that Moses taught us is an inheritance of the Congregation of Jacob" (Deut. 33:4). Therefore, the Torah belongs to all Jews, by ancestral right. Thus, if you refuse to teach a Jew Torah, you are stealing his inheritance, his birthright.

Moreover, say the Talmudic Rabbis, why does the verse use the term "Congregation of Jacob? Why not say, "the Children of Jacob," or "the descendants of Jacob?" It is to teach us, explain the Rabbis, that the Torah should not be kept private, but should be taught in public, with the congregation participating (Midrash Tehillim 1:1).

The Tradition did not begin with the Mishnah and Talmud, of course. Remember, Moses taught the Torah to all of the Children of Israel. As I have written elsewhere, Moses was taught directly by Hashem, every single word of Torah, both the Written Torah and the Oral Torah. Hashem made special arrangements so Moses could ask any question he needed to ask. Hashem taught Moses the Torah passage by passage.

Moses then taught Aharon the High Priest everything he had learned. Then, while Aharon was still sitting there, he called in Aharon's two sons Elazar and Isamar, and he taught them. Then they called in the Seventy Elders and he taught them. Then they called in all the Children of Israel, and Moses taught them. The Children of Israel would write each teaching down.

Then Aharon taught everyone the same passage. Then the two sons of Aharon taught everyone the passage. Then the Elders would teach it. This way, each person learned it at least four times, at several levels. (We can imagine that each probably had their own teaching style as well, which maximized general understanding.) Then people would gather with the leaders and learn with them, reviewing, asking questions, discussing each issue. Every group of ten Jews had a Teacher. Ten groups had a Teacher of that hundred, and ten hundreds had a Teacher of that thousand, and so on. (The Teachers were chosen from the most honorable and learned people to be found.) So again, all this was done in public.

After Moses passed away the Children of Israel continued to study Torah. In the Land of Israel they built yeshivos, and Teachers taught Torah to thousands upon thousands of students constantly. Some yeshivos were smaller, of course. We find, for example, that the Prophet Elisha had at least one hundred students (2 Kings 4:38-44). Students generally searched until they found the best Teacher for them, since people aren't all able to learn at the same level.

We also had, when we all lived in Israel, the Torah's complex system of appellate courts, to guarantee self-correction and various other checks and balances. Each city had a Jewish Court of 23 highly-qualified Judges, who were also required to teach Torah publicly. Jerusalem alone had at least three courts, the Supreme Court (later called the Sanhedrin) consisting of 71 Judges with their students. All this was to ensure that the Torah was preserved accurately, and to ensure that all of Israel knew the Torah.

Other countries have gross national products. The national product of the Jews is the Torah. The Nation of Israel never had gladiators, nor circuses, nor sports arenas, nor theaters, nor pageants, nor any of the recreational diversions that were found so often among other nations. The study of Torah has been our national recreation, our pastime, our holy service to Hashem.

And it was not a casual pastime. Most Rabbis devoted their entire lives to studying Torah. They studied it day and night, and slept and ate little. Many Rabbis had to work for a living, but their lives were wholly devoted to Torah study. They recited Torah as they worked. (This is true even today. I actually knew a man who did this constantly. He worked in a warehouse, walking around filling orders. He would recite Mishnayos by heart all day. When I wanted to speak to him I often had to wait until he finished the Mishnah he was reviewing.) And after work they hurried to study Torah in whatever time they had for as long as they could stay awake. As King David says in Psalms, "I love your Torah so much that that's what I talk about all day" (119:97).

Hillel the Elder (112 B.C.E. - 8 C.E.) began as a very poor man. He earned very little money a day. Each day he would give half his money to the doorkeeper of the yeshivah so he could attend the classes of Shmaya and Avtalyon, the leading Elders of the generation. Once, on a Friday, when he did not have the few pennies it cost, Hillel climbed up the wall of the Academy and listened through the skylight. It began to snow, and he stayed on. Eventually, he got stuck there, and his body was noticed Shabbos morning, stuck on the skylight on the roof under the snow. The Leaders of the generation themselves, Shmaya and Avtalyon, ran and brought a ladder and climbed up and took him down. To save his life, they started a fire (even though it was the Sabbath, since we are obligated to break the Sabbath to save a life).

This sort of man will make sure to learn Torah without errors, and he certainly does not falsify his teachings. He loved the Torah too much for that.

The study of Torah was so important, that Jews would stop at nothing to learn it. And because it was so important to them, they took great care to preserve the teachings of the Torah perfectly.

It was Avtalyon, one of those two Rabbis in that story, who used to warn his students and colleagues, "Rabbis! Be very careful with your words, so that your students do not make any mistakes" (Avos 1:11). How very important it was to the Rabbis that the Torah be taught carefully and correctly, so that mistakes do not occur.

The study of Torah was so dear to the Jews that many safeguards were put in place to ensure that it was done properly. The Talmud talks about Rabbis teaching the same material hundreds of times to the same student to make sure it was understood properly. The Rabbis instructed all Torah students to review every lesson at least one hundred and one times (Babylonian Talmud, Chagigah 9b).

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I am skeptical about the possibility of a fruitful discussion if we simply exchange articles. I think it would be more beneficial if we discuss individual points one-by-one, but certainly use such articles as a reference.

I did read that article, and its argument revolves around the claim of continuous teaching and strict adherence to the Torah. I am slightly perplexed as to why the authors of the article chose not to include the narrative of the Jews conduct as provided by the Tanakh, as it certainly has much to say on the subject. If we examine both, I think t will become obvious that the article is certainly not very comprehensive, and can be misleading at various points.

I think we should examine a historical perspective of Judaism, and examine if the followers were truly as devoted to the Torah as the above article claims.

Let's just start from the beginning.

One year after the Exodus, Prophet Moses and Aaron counted the total number of men who were at least twenty years of age and of fighting strength. Their tally yielded 603, 550 Israelites. See Bamidbar/Numbers 1:20-46. The Levi tribe was not included in this number, and neither were females of all ages, old men, and any young men under twenty. Taking these groups into account, we can infer that according to the Torah, the toal number participating in the exodus probably exceeded 2 million Jews. As a side point, I'm not sure how this number arose from a tribe of seventy people (Genesis 46:26-27) in only 215 years, especially when they're new born males were being systematically killed for the previous eight decades.

Let's move onwards. Prophet Moses went up to the mount and supplicated there for forty days. Let's examine the narrative in the Tanakh:

Shemot/Exodus 32:1-6
When the people saw that Moses was late in coming down from the mountain, the people gathered against Aaron, and they said to him: "Come on! Make us gods that will go before us, because this man Moses, who brought us up from the land of Egypt we don't know what has become of him."

Aaron said to them, "Remove the golden earrings that are on the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters and bring them [those earrings] to me."

And all the people stripped themselves of the golden earrings that were on their ears and brought them to Aaron.

He took [them] from their hand, fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made it into a molten calf, upon which they said: "These are your gods, O Israel, who have brought you up from the land of Egypt!"

When Aaron saw [this], he built an altar in front of it, and Aaron proclaimed and said: "Tomorrow shall be a festival to the Lord."

On the next day they arose early, offered up burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings, and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and they got up to make merry.

So even after God feed the Israelits and parted the sea for their escape, this is their display of ingratitude. And these were his immediate followers who had witnessed these miracles themselves.

On the verge of punishing them for their transgression, at the last moment, Prophet Moses reprimanded God at
Shemot 32:14 The Lord [then] reconsidered the evil He had said He would do to His people.

And in some versions it is translated as 'repented' instead of reconsidered. The idea of God repenting or reconsidering His already perfect decree, after being corrected by His servant, is another one of the unfathomable notions on the Torah.


I'll leave you with this for now, and we can move on later.

 

[morrissey]

Ansar, you claim the Jews re-wrote the Torah, yet you use quotes from that Torah to support your arguments.

You beleive the above quotes are not corrupted? How do you differentiate between which ones were corrupted and which ones were not?

If one man has claimed this from revelations he alone had, why should I beleive him? I have millions of Jews, most of whom have never met,and are scattered all over the face of the earth, who tell the story as it is writen in the Torah, identically, as told to them in an unbroken chain by their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and so on, all the way back to their ancestors at Sinai. And then 1 man, Mohammed, tells me it is something different.

You are going to have to find proof about the corruption of the Torah without using the Torah - as I need proof as to which bits got corrupted, you know, where, when, why, and how......and group eyewitness accounts of this. Just one man claiming to be an eyewitness is useless - I could pretend to 'eyewitness' some strange event right now, and you would undoubtably laugh at me as a fool for expecting me to believe you.

 

[morrissey]

Shemot/Exodus 32:1-6
When the people saw that Moses was late in coming down from the mountain, the people gathered against Aaron, and they said to him: "Come on! Make us gods that will go before us, because this man Moses, who brought us up from the land of Egypt we don't know what has become of him."

Aaron said to them, "Remove the golden earrings that are on the ears of your wives, your sons, and your daughters and bring them [those earrings] to me."

And all the people stripped themselves of the golden earrings that were on their ears and brought them to Aaron.

He took [them] from their hand, fashioned it with an engraving tool, and made it into a molten calf, upon which they said: "These are your gods, O Israel, who have brought you up from the land of Egypt!"

When Aaron saw [this], he built an altar in front of it, and Aaron proclaimed and said: "Tomorrow shall be a festival to the Lord."

On the next day they arose early, offered up burnt offerings, and brought peace offerings, and the people sat down to eat and to drink, and they got up to make merry.

So even after God feed the Israelits and parted the sea for their escape, this is their display of ingratitude. And these were his immediate followers who had witnessed these miracles themselves.

All these actions contradict the prescription of service to HaShem that is laid out in the Torah. Whenever the Jews have been corrupt, throughout the TaNaKh, they have strayed from the blueprint of the Torah, which has never been altered, to this day. They have never been so proud that they altered the actual blueprint, the 613 laws, or been so proud to re-write their history to deny any of their failures.

Why would they, en-masse, re-write their Torah, make the rules harder for themselves, and then write about themselves not living up to these made up rules? Is that corruption? It sounds more like insanity to, me, a nation which writes a book about, essentially self-abuse: ie, lets give ourselves extremely stricter rules than G-d originally gave us, and then when we fail, we will record for all of mankind our suffering because of it...

Or, G-d gave the 613 laws, as recorded in the Torah, and yes, the Jews did stray, but miraculously, enough righteous Jews survived to this day, and these ones have successfully abided by these laws, and preserved the Torah as prescribed in the Torah also to this day.

 

[morrissey]

the toal number participating in the exodus probably exceeded 2 million Jews. As a side point, I'm not sure how this number arose from a tribe of seventy people (Genesis 46:26-27) in only 215 years, especially when they're new born males were being systematically killed for the previous eight decades.

This is easy for me to understand - have you seen your average Orthodox Jewish family size? These people breed like rabbits 12 is normal, 5 children, the woman weeps because she assumes she is barren

(just wish my husband would let me have as many children! )

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

Greetings Morrissey,

Ansar, you claim the Jews re-wrote the Torah, yet you use quotes from that Torah to support your arguments.

You beleive the above quotes are not corrupted? How do you differentiate between which ones were corrupted and which ones were not?

Good question. Many non-muslims ask this when we quote from the New testament or Tanakh. The answer is that the function of the Qur'an is a criterion. It confirms the truth in the previous revelations and negates any falsehood. Eg. We don't believe in the verses that slander the Prophets by attributing criminal acts to them, because Allah swt tells us that they were shining examples of moral conduct.

This is the whole purpose of the Qur'an, to let us know which parts are corrupted and which aren't. There are many contradictions and statements in the Tanakh that I could not accept as truth from God.

Moreover, your article claims that the Children of Israel took the utmost care in preserving the Torah, while the Tanakh records a different story. One of them must be wrong. And both cases prove the point.

If one man has claimed this from revelations he alone had, why should I beleive him? I have millions of Jews, most of whom have never met,and are scattered all over the face of the earth, who tell the story as it is writen in the Torah, identically, as told to them in an unbroken chain by their parents, grandparents, great-grandparents and so on, all the way back to their ancestors at Sinai. And then 1 man, Mohammed, tells me it is something different.

It is actually not just one man. I have hundreds of quotes from biblical scholars that record this corruption. But I thought you would simply disregard their statements, so I decided to prove my point with the scripture itself.

You are going to have to find proof about the corruption of the Torah without using the Torah - as I need proof as to which bits got corrupted, you know, where, when, why, and how......and group eyewitness accounts of this.

That's fine, but the most reliable source to start with is the Tanakh itself.

All these actions contradict the prescription of service to HaShem that is laid out in the Torah.

Is Shemot/Exodus not part of the Torah?!

Why would they, en-masse, re-write their Torah,

There is a difference between re-writing something and simply neglecting it, mixing it up with the work of humans etc.

make the rules harder for themselves,

Well, whenver Judaism differs in ruling from Islam, it seems that Judaism is not harder. Jews aren't prohibited from alcohol, for example.

and then write about themselves not living up to these made up rules?

I don't think they re-wrote that. It was a simple fact that no-one could possibly deny.

There are whole centuries where the Torah has gone missing.

This is easy for me to understand - have you seen your average Orthodox Jewish family size? These people breed like rabbits 12 is normal, 5 children, the woman weeps because she assumes she is barren

(just wish my husband would let me have as many children! )

lol...okay let's discuss this for awhile. I think its scientifically impossible, but lets work out the details.

Let's say that they each have 12 children, right? say 1 child per year. And these children have their own children at the age of fifteen, say. And let's assume that out of the original seventy tribesmen, 40 were women, about to give birth.

Genetically, approx. half of the children will be male.

I'll work on this problem, and get back to you, insha'Allah.

 

[yoshiyahu]

Hi, I don't know if i'll have enough time to actively participate in this thread, but I'd like to hit a few things...

As a side point, I'm not sure how this number arose from a tribe of seventy people (Genesis 46:26-27) in only 215 years, especially when they're new born males were being systematically killed for the previous eight decades.

The original Israelite nation was composed of converts and native israelites. Also, IIRC, Genesis 46 only mentions the males. I don't have a TNK on hand to verify that, however. That was also from a period in time where the average lifespan was very short, women had children as soon as they were capable of bearing them, and polygamy was the norm.

 

[yoshiyahu]

Assuming there were 70 couples who had 10 children each, and each generation being 20 years, here's the numbers we get:

700 after 20 years.
7000 after 40 years.
70,000 after 60 years.
700,000 after 80 years.
7,000,000 after 100 years.

As you can see - especially when you figure in converts - the 2 million number isn't a great exxageration. Even if there were 10 children every 40 years instead, the number would still exceed 7,000,000 possible descendants.

 

[yoshiyahu]

Some Muslims have claimed that the "original" Torah is in Mecca. Do y'all have any proof on that one?

 

[morrissey]

Well, whenver Judaism differs in ruling from Islam, it seems that Judaism is not harder. Jews aren't prohibited from alcohol, for example.

Okay, have a husband and 3 sons to deal with today, but this statement jumped out at me. So a brief response:

Islam 'permits' the Jews not to keep Shabbas, with all it's intricate implications in the definition of not working (eg, driving on Shabbas, turning lights on and off). Islam 'permits' the Jews to eat shellfish. Islam insists that the Jews dont keep Pesach, Rosh Hoshannah, Yom Kippur and other holy days, as directed by G-d for them to do in the Torah. If Mohammed tells them they may break any of these rules (these are just a small example) then his prophecy is false and he is deemed a false prophet by Israel.

Does Islam allow the Jew to live in the manner G-d directed them in the Torah? If the answer is no, then Islam is trying to defy G-d's command when He clearly stated that nothing should be added or subtracted from the Torah.

If Islam insisted that the Jews follow the Jewish Torah (ie the Sefer Torah they keep in their Synagogues), then I might prick my ears up and listen, as I think Islam probably has some good things to teach non-Jews. But since it does not, it falls under the category of false prophecy, as described in Deuteronomy 13. I am sorry, I just cant get around this.

 

[morrissey]

Some Muslims have claimed that the "original" Torah is in Mecca. Do y'all have any proof on that one?

If you have the original Torah, gee, why dont you just make the contents public and this debate can end once and for all.....

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

If you have the original Torah, gee, why dont you just make the contents public and this debate can end once and for all.....

Please morrisse, I could write an "original" Torah and many Muslims would accept it provided it followed the Quran somewhat and "predicted" mohammed a few times.

 

[morrissey]

Maybe that's your mission in life, SF, as apparently only one person has to 'hear' from G-d for us all to be required to fall into submission..... You're just one person...unless you are a trinity.....

sorry, I'm being far too silly now , please forgive me, I'll shut up now :zip:

 

[yoshiyahu]

Ansar, you claim the Jews re-wrote the Torah, yet you use quotes from that Torah to support your arguments.

Hi Morrissey. I'd compare it to us using the NT to prove a few points to the Christians. Or when a person quotes from the DSS.

 

[yoshiyahu]

Jews aren't prohibited from alcohol, for example.

Actually, they're commanded to use wine certain times. In other times it is absolutely forbidden (one may not pray while intoxicated, for example).

 

[Ansar Al-'Adl]

I'll get your other points later, I just wanted to answer Yoshiyahu's question:

Some Muslims have claimed that the "original" Torah is in Mecca. Do y'all have any proof on that one?

No, that's ridiculous.


How old is the oldest copy of the Torah, btw?

 

[SpaceFalcon2001]

(one may not pray while intoxicated, for example).

I do not think that is true. While it is true during a formal service, one can pray while intoxicated. The chassids believe it allows you to free your mind a little.

How old is the oldest copy of the Torah, btw?

Since we bury it in the ground when it becomes too old, it's hard to have an old one.

The very oldest is wherever the Ark of the covenant is (because that is where the first was kept).

The oldest we have is the one that was found with the dead sea scrolls, along with some Tefillin, both having the same text that exists today.

How old is the oldest copy of the Quran?