What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?

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yoshiyahu said:
Hi Morrissey. I'd compare it to us using the NT to prove a few points to the Christians. Or when a person quotes from the DSS.

The reason I ask why he uses it, is because he states it has been re-written/corrupted to suit the Jews, so that is why it states that G-d's requirements are different for mankind in the Quran and are in contradiction to what the Torah states.

If he believes it is corrupted, it therefore must be considered an unreliable source document, so I dont understand how he can find a reliable account of events from a document that has supposedly become fiction.

The claims that it is fiction came from 1 man: Mohammed. Millions of Jews who use the Torah all claim it's authenticity. 1 man said it's wrong, and millions of other men say it's correct.

Unless he can come up with archaeological evidence, or eyewitness accounts of several people, at the same momment, witnessing all the Jewish scribes, (ie all of them on the face of the planet after assimilation) conspiring to write the Torah identically (since as we know, each Sefer Torah is meticulously copied and therefore they all match perfectly) in contradiction with what G-d originally commanded them at Sinai, then I am afraid his claims are merely hearsay, and extremely slanderous against the Jewish people.

Last night I couldnt get this out of my head. The 4 different types of belief.

1: Those who choose not to beleive

2: Those who really want to believe, so they set about trying to prove this belief

3: Those who are insane, so their beliefs are theres alone ;)

and 4: Those whose belief is merely a side-effect of what has been proved to them.

So, does Ansar believe that the Torah was corrupted because he really wants to believe it is (option 2), so therefore 'knowing' is a secondary side-effect in an effort to prove his beliefs, or does he know something which forces him to believe without a doubt, as he has witnessed undeniable proof.

If it is the 4th type of belief, then I wonder why he can't just lay it on the table so we can also believe, as a side-effect of witnessing what has been proven to us.....
 
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Question and Answer Details

Name Abdullah - United Arab Emirates
Topic Faith & Practice
Title What Islam says about the Bible
Question Assalamu Alaykum!

We (the Muslims) were discussing various topics with Christians on an Islamic discussion forum. The Christians made certain comments, which I'd like you to respond to. Here is what they said: “All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed.
...Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

Surah 3 Verse 93

The Christians said: “The problem is that the ayah is saying to follow the Torah. However, Muslims say that the Torah has been corrupted and lost. How could the Jews study the Torah unless the book they had at Muhammad's time is the Book from Moses' time?”
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Surah 10 Verse 94

The Christians said: “First, this ayah says to ask the People of the Book, not merely the upright people. But if Muslims asked even the good Christians, they would say Jesus died and rose again.”
And dispute ye not with the People of the Book, except with means better (than mere disputation), unless it be with those of them who inflict wrong (and injury): but say, "We believe in the revelation which has come down to us and in that which came down to you; Our God and your God is one; and it is to Him we bow (in Islam)."

Surah 29 Verse 46

The Christians said: “This says to believe not only in the revelation come Abraham, Moses, and Jesus but also to 7th century Christians, and to all Christians! The Christians are trying their best to prove that the Qur'an does not say the Torah and the Bible have been corrupted. They're also trying their best to prove that the Qur'an says Muslims should follow the Torah and the Bible.

I would appreciate it if you kindly respond to the comments of the Christians and teach all of us the tafseer of each ayah that was mentioned, and kindly clear the misconceptions and misunderstandings of the Christians with regards to each ayah that was mentioned.

Wassalamu Alaykum
Date 2002/7/6

Name of Consultant Shahul Hameed
Content of Reply

Dear Brother Abdullah,
Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah, thank you very much for your mail.

First of all, I would like to clear a misunderstanding among certain Muslims, which some Christian missionaries are trying to take undue advantage of: The Muslims do not believe that the Torah and Bible are lost, that they are completely lost. The Qur’anic position about the Torah and Bible is very clear. Here, I would like to point out that it is well attested by learned Christian scholars too. That is, the Books of God as revealed to Moses and Jesus do not exist now in the original form and language.

Many Muslims misunderstand that the Christian Old Testament is the Torah. This is not true. The first five books of the Old Testament, often called the Pentateuch (the Five Books), contain some of the ideas in the original Torah - that is all. The language of the original Torah was ancient Hebrew; now nobody speaks that language. The first five books of the Old Testament contain ideas from the original Torah and also stories, which could have never been part of the divinely revealed Book. So the Jewish or Christian Torah contains some parts of the Original Torah, as well as other things.

The same is the case of the Bible. It was revealed to Jesus by God, in Jesus’ own language of Aramaic, which is a Semitic language, an eastern language similar to Hebrew and Arabic. The “original” extant copies of the gospels are in Greek, a western language. Now there are four gospels, supposed to have been written by four of the disciples of Jesus: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Was Jesus quoting, from these Greek books, written many years after his disappearance when he was addressing his people? Certainly not! He was quoting from the Book he received from God, which was the original Bible in the language of his own people. The argument that God revealed his Bible to Jesus in Greek is like saying that God revealed the Qur’an to Muhammad in English!

So the original Gospel was not in Greek, it was in the language Jesus and his people spoke and understood. We have no record or evidence to indicate that; this original Gospel was written down by scribes under Jesus’ own supervision. I repeat: We have no original Gospel existing now as a single volume, in the original language. Every educated Christian must know this fact! (Those who are in doubt can go to the Jerome Biblical Commentary, or any authentic book by genuine scholars that deal with the subject. Nevertheless, missionaries give the impression that this is only a baseless charge by Muslims.

Instead of the original Gospel, we have four books written by persons who are supposed to have been Jesus’ disciples. I say ‘supposed’, because modern scholars who have done research on the subject, question the claim that these were the disciples of Jesus, in the first place. These four books called the Gospels are placed at the beginning of some 27 books, bound together into one volume, called The New Testament. Out of these 27 books, thirteen were written by a man called St. Paul. This Paul was not a disciple of Jesus, nor has Jesus met him, as he himself testifies. Modern Christians are ardent followers of St. Paul, even in cases where Paul clearly contradicts Jesus!

The Islamic request to Christians is just this: Please follow Jesus, don’t follow Paul, who preaches a different gospel! The Islamic belief about the present Book, which the Christians use as “the word of God”, called the New Testament is that it is not the Gospel of Jesus mentioned in the Qur'an. Still, Muslims believe that the Gospels in the bible contain some teachings of Jesus, as well as the interpretations of the writers of those books, whoever they might have been. Also Muslims believe that in the words quoted from Jesus in these gospels, you come across certain ideas, which he received from God too. So the New Testament (particularly the Gospels) is valuable to the Muslims. It is valuable in that there is the “word of God” in it, exactly as the Old Testament (particularly the Pentateuch) is valuable to Muslims in that it contains also the “word of God” in it.

There is a couple of things that we must understand about God commanding Muslims to go to Christians or Jews and ask them about any particular point, to verify whether it is in their books.



God wants to make Muslims, as well as the People of the Book, understand the continuity of Divine Guidance.

He wants to encourage understanding and dialogue between Muslims and others, for Allah knows best.



The Qur’an does not say anywhere that the older scriptures remained pure and free from corruption. On the contrary, the Qur’an very clearly says that they have been corrupted. One of the functions of the Qur’an is to confirm the truth that is left in the older scriptures, even after many interpolations and revisions have affected substantial changes in them.

The Qur’anic position about the previous scriptures is clarified in the following verse:
To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety: so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute;

Surah 5 Verse 48

This verse means that the Qur’an confirms the truth that remains in the former scriptures. The Arabic word translated, “Watcher over” is Muhaymin, which clearly indicates that the Qur’an confirms only the truth in the previous books. That the keepers of the previous books had distorted them is made clear in another verse:
Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say:"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.

Surah 2 Verse 79

From these two verses, it is quite clear that the Qur’an does not support the Christian claim that the Torah and the Bible remain uncorrupted all through history. What is more, this is not a claim they can maintain in the light of their own scripture:

“How can you say, 'We are wise, and the law of the Lord is with us'? But behold, the lying pen of the scribes has made it into a lie” (Jeremiah 8:8, quoted from the New American Standard Bible).

Here the Prophet Jeremiah is scolding the Israelites that their corrupt scribes have made the Law of the Lord (that is the Torah) into a lie by their ‘lying pen’ (that is the pen they used to change the verses). This proof in the Book, the People of the Book are carrying, clearly establishes that their Book has been corrupted by their own scribes.

We have good evidence in the Gospels themselves that Jesus was using the original Bible for his preaching. He used to refer to it as The Gospel of the Kingdom:
“And Jesus went about all Galilee, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the gospel of the kingdom, and healing all manner of sickness and all manner of disease among the people.” (Matthew 4: 23)

Here it is said that Jesus preached the Gospel of the Kingdom. Ask those Christian disputants whether Jesus was preaching one of the four Canonical gospels included in the Bible in 325 C.E, written not in Jesus’ own Aramaic language, but in the western language of Greek, at least thirty years after his alleged crucifixion. It is so obvious that no Christian scholar, worth his salt, can deny the fact that the present gospels contain the words of God, the words of Jesus and the words of the writer. That means that they are not fully God’s word. The Islamic belief is also the same.

Now let us turn specifically to the Qur’anic verses you quoted:

First,
All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel Made unlawful for itself, before the Law (of Moses) was revealed. Say: "Bring ye the Law and study it, if ye be men of truth."

Surah 3 Verse 93

Second,
If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt.

Surah 10 Verse 94

We must understand that these verses were originally addressed to the Prophet and his contemporaries. They had no means of knowing many of the ideas, which were being revealed to them by God. This is because there were so many things new to them, particularly about Jews and Christians, which were already really confusing to those polytheists or ex-polytheists of Mecca and Madinah. I believe (Allah knows best), it is to these people that the verses are primarily addressed.

"The truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt" - is clearly addressed to those who doubt, or to those who are likely to have some doubts. It is only natural for humans to have all kinds of doubts and questions, arising in the mind, especially in the light of so much of new material. It seems the Christian argument is that we are commanded not to doubt the Christian claims. However, as we have seen, this is not what the Qur'an commands us to do.

May Allah guide us to truth!

Mr. Lamaan Ball, editor of Ask About Islam, adds:

We are told in the Qur'an only to verify that what is in the Qur'an agrees with some extant verses of the Bible. The Muslims can quote the Bible, because they believe there is some truth in it. But we need to be clear: we understand that there is also falsehood there, which is wrongly presented as truth. By quoting the Bible we can show that the Qur'an confirms teachings already present in the earlier books. We must however always be clear that we are not asserting anything else about the remaining contents of those earlier books.
 
SpaceFalcon2001 said:
I do not think that is true. While it is true during a formal service, one can pray while intoxicated. The chassids believe it allows you to free your mind a little.

How much of a drink do the Chassidim allow? Perhaps it is only prohibited in Sephardic Halakah. See the URL below for a discussion on the issue from R. Eli Mansour.

http://www.dailyhalacha.com/Display.asp?PageIndex=2&ClipID=843
 
Question :


What sura in the Quran is related or mentions about the curruption of the Torah and Gospel?

Answer :



Praise be to Allaah.

Allaah says about the Jews (interpretation of the meaning): “Do you (faithful believers) covet that they will belive in your religion in spite of the fact that a party of them (Jewish rabbis) used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it?” [al-Baqarah 2:75]

Qutaadah said: “The phrase ‘then they used to change it knowingly after they understood it’ refers to the Jews, who used to hear the words of Allaah, then they altered it after they had understood what it meant.”

Abu ‘Aaliyah said: “They took what Allaah had revealed in their Book describing Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and changed its meaning.” Ibn Zayd said: “The phrase ‘[they] used to hear the Word of Allaah (the Tawraat), then they used to change it’ refers to the Tawraat which Allaah revealed to them; they changed it, making what it permitted forbidden, and what was forbidden allowed, changing the truth to falsehood and falsehood to truth…” [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

Allaah also said (interpretation of the meaning): “Among those who are Jews, there are some who displace words from (their) right places and say: ‘We hear your word (O Muhammad) and disobey,’ and ‘Hear and let you (Muhammad) hear nothing.’ And Raa’ina [in Arabic this means, ‘Be careful, listen to us and we listen to you,’ whereas in Hebrew it means ‘an insult.’] with a twist of their tongues and as a mockery of the religion (Islam). And if only they had said, ‘We hear and obey,’ and ‘Do make us understand,’ it would have been better for them, and more proper, but Allaah has cursed them for their disbelief, so they believe not except for a few.” [al-Nisaa’ 4:46]

The phrase “[they] displace words from (their) right places” means that they misinterpret them and understand them in a way that Allaah did not intend, doing this deliberately and inventing lies against Allaah. [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

Allah says (interpretation of the meaning): “So because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard. They change the words from their (right) places and have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them. And you will not cease to discover deceit in them, except a few of them. But forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds). Verily, Allaah loves al-Muhsineen (good-doers).” [al-Maa’idah 5:13]

The phrase “because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them” refers to the fact that they broke the Covenant which had been made with them, so Allaah cursed them, i.e., He kept them away from following the True Guidance. “[We] made their hearts grow hard” means that they will not benefit from any preaching because their hearts are so hard. “They change the words from their (right) places” means that they play havoc with the words of Allaah and misinterpret His Book, taking it to mean things that were never meant and attributing to Allaah things that He never said; may Allaah protect us from that.

“[They] have abandoned a good part of the Message that was sent to them” means that they stopped following its teachings because they did not want to follow them. Al-Hasan said: “They did not adhere to their religion or keep their duties towards Allaah, without which no deeds are acceptable to Him; their fitrah (innate nature) was not sound and their deeds were not righteous.” [Tafseer Ibn Katheer]

So it becomes quite clear that the ways in which the Children of Israel tampered with the Tawraat and Injeel include the following:

Changing
Omitting
Adding things and attributing to Allaah words that He did not say
Misinterpreting the words of Allaah.
When Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) was sent, the original Tawraat and Injeel had already been altered and distorted. Allaah revealed the Qur’aan to His Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him), and guaranteed that He Himself would preserve it, as He says (interpretation of the meaning): “Verily We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’aan) and surely, We will guard it (from corruption).” [al-Hijr 15:9]

This distinguishing feature was not found in any Book before the Qur’aan. From the time of Muhammad (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) until the present (more than fourteen hundred years) the Qur’aan has stayed the same, and not a single letter of it has been changed, as ancient manuscripts and the hearts of generation after generation of people who have memorized the entire text and earned the title of “haafiz” bear witness. We ask Allaah to guide us to the true and straight path. And Allaah knows best.



Islam Q&A
Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)
 
Question :


It is well known among us Muslims that Allaah revealed the Gospel (Injeel) to ‘Eesa (peace be upon him), but when I studied some things about Christianity, they told me that the Gospel was not brought by the Messiah, rather it was written by the disciples of the Messiah after the crucifixion (or after Allaah raised him up to Him, as it says in the Qur’aan). How can we reconcile between the two views?.

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

There is no contradiction between the two views such that we would need to ask how they can be reconciled. Rather the reason why the questioner is confused is that he is mixing up two things that we must believe in and that are both true, praise be to Allaah.

The first issue is the Gospel that was revealed from the Lord of the Worlds to the Prophet of Allaah ‘Eesa (peace be upon him). Belief that Allaah revealed a Book to His Prophet ‘Eesa and that the name of this book was the Gospel (Injeel), are basic principles of faith that we must believe in. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“The Messenger (Muhammad) believes in what has been sent down to him from his Lord, and (so do) the believers. Each one believes in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, and His Messengers. (They say,) ‘We make no distinction between one another of His Messengers’ — and they say, ‘We hear, and we obey. (We seek) Your forgiveness, our Lord, and to You is the return (of all)’”

[al-Baqarah 2:285]

The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said to Jibreel, when he asked him about faith, as mentioned in the well-known hadeeth: “Faith means to believe in Allaah, His angels, His books, His messengers, the Last Day, and to believe in His divine will and decree, both good and bad.” (Agreed upon).

Disbelieving in that or doubting it is misguidance and kufr or disbelief in Allaah. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning):

“O you who believe! Believe in Allaah, and His Messenger (Muhammad), and the Book (the Qur’aan) which He has sent down to His Messenger, and the Scripture which He sent down to those before (him); and whosoever disbelieves in Allaah, His Angels, His Books, His Messengers, and the Last Day, then indeed he has strayed far away.

137. Verily, those who believe, then disbelieve, then believe (again), and (again) disbelieve, and go on increasing in disbelief; Allaah will not forgive them, nor guide them on the (right) way”

[al-Nisa’ 4:136-137]

“Verily, those who disbelieve in Allaah and His Messengers and wish to make distinction between Allaah and His Messengers (by believing in Allaah and disbelieving in His Messengers) saying, “We believe in some but reject others,” and wish to adopt a way in between.

151. They are in truth disbelievers. And We have prepared for the disbelievers a humiliating torment”

[al-Nisa’ 4:150-151]

The second issue is the Gospel or, more precisely, the Gospels that the Christians have today. Although one of the basic principles of our faith is to believe in the Gospel that was revealed to ‘Eesa, we also believe that there is no longer any book that remained as it was revealed by Allaah, neither the Gospel nor anything else, apart from the Qur’aan. Even the Christians themselves do not believe that the books that they have before them were revealed in that form from God, nor do they claim that the Messiah wrote the Gospel or at least that it was written during his lifetime. Imam Ibn Hazm (may Allaah have mercy on him) says in al-Fasl fi’l-Milal (2/2):

We do not need to try hard to prove that the Gospels and all the books of the Christians did not come from God or from the Messiah (peace be upon him), as we needed to do with regard to the Torah and the books attributed to the Prophets that the Jews have, because the Jews claim that the Torah that they have was revealed from God to Moosa, so we needed to establish proof that this claim of theirs is false. With regard to the Christians, they have taken care of the issue themselves, because they do not believe that the Gospels were revealed from God to the Messiah, or that the Messiah brought them, rather all of them from first to last, peasants and kings, Nestorians, Jacobites, Maronites and Orthodox are all agreed that there are four historical accounts written by four known men at different times. The first of them is the account written by Matthew the Levite who was a disciple of the Messiah, nine years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Hebrew in Judaea in Palestine, and it filled approximately twenty-eight pages in a medium-sized script. The next account was written by Mark, a disciple of Simon ben Yuna, who was called Peter, twenty-two years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek in Antioch in the land of the Byzantines. They say that the Simon mentioned is the one who wrote it, then he erased his name from the beginning of it and attributed it to his disciple Mark. It filled twenty-four pages written in a medium-sized script. This Simon was a disciple of the Messiah. The third account written was that of Luke, a physician of Antioch who was also a disciple of Simon Peter. He wrote it in Greek after Mark had written his account, and is similar in length to the Gospel of Matthew. The fourth account was written by John the son of Zebedee, another disciple of the Messiah, sixty-odd years after the Messiah has been taken up into heaven. He wrote it in Greek, and it filled twenty-four pages in a medium-sized script. End quote.

Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah said in al-Jawaab al-Saheeh (3:21):

With regard to the Gospels that the Christians have, there are four Gospels, Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. They are agreed that Luke and Mark did not see the Messiah, rather he was seen by Matthew and John. These four accounts which they call the Gospel, and they call each one of them a Gospel, were written by these men after the Messiah had been taken up into heaven. They did not say that they are the word of God or that the Messiah conveyed them from God, rather they narrated some of the words of the Messiah and some of his deeds and miracles. End quote.

Moreover, these books which were written after the time of the Messiah did not remain in their original form. The original versions were lost long ago. Ibn Hazm said:

With regard to the Christians, there is no dispute among them or anyone else that only one hundred and twenty men believed in the Messiah during his lifetime… and all of those who believed in him concealed themselves and were afraid during his lifetime and afterwards; they called people to his religion in secret and none of them disclosed himself or practised his religion openly, because any of them who was caught was executed.

They continued in this manner, not showing themselves at all, and they had no place where they were safe for three hundred years after the Messiah was taken up into heaven.

During this time, the Gospel that had been revealed from Allaah disappeared, apart from a few verses which Allaah preserved as proof against them and as a rebuke to them, as we have mentioned. Then when the Emperor Constantine became a Christian, then the Christians prevailed and started to practise their religion openly and assemble in safety.

If a religion is like this, with its followers practicing it in secret and living in constant fear of the sword, it is impossible for things to be transmitted soundly via a continuous chain of narrators and its followers cannot protect it or prevent it from being distorted.

End quote. Al-Fasl, 2/4-5.

In addition to this huge disruption in the chain of transmission of their books, which lasted for two centuries, these books did not remain in the languages in which they were originally written, rather they were translated, more than once, by people whose level of knowledge and honesty is unknown. The contradictions in these books and their shortcomings are among the strongest evidence that they have been distorted and that they are not the Gospel (Injeel) that Allaah revealed to His slave and Messenger ‘Eesa (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him). Allaah indeed spoke the truth when He said (interpretation of the meaning):

“Had it been from other than Allaah, they would surely, have found therein many a contradiction”

[al-Nisa’ 4:82].



Islam Q&A (www.islam-qa.com)
 
ahmed687,

this is all heresay.

Do you have any proof?

You are asking me to believe opinions and interpretations.

I need tangible proof.

Your responses fall into the category of belief that I mentioned above, which was number 2, or the 'x-files' belief: "I want to believe, so I will set about trying to prove".

I want proof based on your belief becasue it is merely a side-effect of something you have witnessed and had undoubtably proven to you.

I am not asking you to believe in anything that I believe in. But you are attempting to prove something to me, in order to make me believe.

though you arent using the words 'blind faith', blind faith is what you are expecting me to have, when you ask me to believe the slanderous claims you are making against the Jewish people. You have to prove these claims, otherwise they remain nothing but hot air.
 
yoshiyahu said:
How much of a drink do the Chassidim allow?
Besides the obvious purim, Chassidim are traditionally encouraged to get "a little tipsy" on Shabbat. The idea is that one can more freely release their happiness and emotions.

Here is what a Chassidic Rav said:
"It is well know that since the destruction of the Holy Temple, our prayers take the place of the sacrifices which were offered there, as it is written, '[The prayer of] our lips shall replace the oxen [of the sacrifices].'(Hosea 14:3). Our three daily prayers correspond to the daily burnt offerings. And just as a sacrifice was rendered invalid by inappropriate thoughts, so, too, is our prayer. "When a person stands in prayer before his Creator, the Evil Inclination wants nothing more than to confuse him and introduce all manner of strange thoughts into his head. How is it possible to stand in prayer in face of that? In the end, it is unlikely that we succeeded in replacing the oxen of the sacrifices with our prayers. What did the chassidim discover to remedy the problem, and to battle against the ploys of this Evil Inclination, the Yetzer Hara?

"After prayer, the chassidim sit together, raise their glasses in l'chayim, and pour out their hearts in blessing. 'Yankele, you should find a proper match for your daughter,' exclaims one man to his friend. 'Beryl, your business should have as many customers as the eyes on a potato,' exclaims another.

"The Yetzer Hara, already regaling in his victory of having confounded the prayer of an entire congregation of Jews, and seeing them eating and drinking, concludes that they have finished praying, and joyfully retires for the morning.

"Now, it is a clear law in the Shulchan Aruch (Code of Jewish Law), that prayer can be said in any language that one understands.(Orach Chaim 62:2) So when Jews gather together to say l'chayim and they begin to bless one another from the depths of their hearts, it is the real prayer. Their intentions are pure, as their Yetzer Hara has left them to their own devices; and their prayers go straight to the heart of the Master of the World."
 
IS THE BIBLE HISTORICALLY TRUE?


Since the faith of Jews and Christians depend on the historical circumstances narrated in the Bible, the question about the historicity of the Bible is ultimately a question about the validity of the faith.

This question is addressed in the book The Bible as History by Werner Keller. In the postscript by Joachim Rehork, the importance of the question is first addressed:

For the majority of Bible readers . . . as well as for a large number of Biblical scholars, a great deal still depends on the question whether statements in the Bible can be proved. The Dominican father, Roland de Vaux, for example, one of the most prominent figures in the history of Biblical antiquity, regarded the capacity to survive of the Jewish and Christian faiths as dependent upon the agreement between “religious” and “objective” history. He stated his opinion thus: “. . . if Israel’s historical faith does not have its roots in history, then it is wrong and the same is true of our faith.”1

Now what about the answer to this question? Is the Bible historically true? Rehork writes:

It is full of problematical statements with the consequence that representatives of the most diverse disciplines, “schools” and opinions have racked their brains again and again over contradictions, repetitions and inconsistencies in the Biblical text–inconsistencies of which the following are a few examples.

Then Rehork lists some examples of which I number three here:

1. In the Bible there are two accounts of the Creation (Genesis 1: 1-2, 3; and Genesis 2:4ff). In the first of these two accounts of the Creation, God created man last; in the second, however, God created him first, that is to say, before all other creatures. In one case God created mankind from the beginning as “male and female”; then, however, only the man came into being from “the dust of the ground”, while woman was formed subsequently from a rib of the man.

2. The name of Moses’s father-in-law has been transmitted in three different forms, once as Jethro (Exodus 3:1; 4:18; 18:1-12), once as Reuel (Exodus 2:18) and finally as Hobab ((Judges 4:11).

3. How could Moses describe his own death (Deuteronomy 34)? Or to put the question another way: can the first five books of the Bible really have been written by Moses when they tell us of his death?

After listing such problems, Rehork continues: “These are only a few examples of inconsistencies in the Bible.”2

Rehork is careful to clarify that the question about the Bible being true can be answered on different levels. He is not concerned in the book with those truths for which history cannot provide confirmation. Belief, religious conviction, and the subjective feeling that something is right fall within a domain outside of historical confirmation. History cannot prove or disprove a document of faith. Where historical investigation ends, faith begins. We can produce proofs for or against the Bible as a historical source, but the Bible has a different level of being right.

But is the Bible always right? Rehork poses this question and then in his answer reveals something of the difficulty some scholars face in trying to make clear their findings. He writes that as far as Biblical statements are confirmed by archeological discoveries and parallel sources we can answer in the affirmative. For statements that are not so confirmed, we can look for another form of rightness. The Bible is right in some passages in giving us some insight into the thought and behavior of the people who wrote the book. And perhaps one day we will be able to affirm that the Bible is right after all, “as seen through the eyes of the people of its times!”3

Such ambivalence is an indication of the sort of difficulty Biblical scholars face when they cannot make their findings clear. On the one hand he affirms that the Bible is inconsistent; on the other hand he affirms that the faith is fine. On the one hand he was able to say about the Bible: “There is no end to the problems.”4 On the other hand, he finds a way to maintain that the faith is true.

I conclude by referring back to what Father Roland de Vaux said: “. . . if Israel’s historical faith does not have its roots in history, then it is wrong and the same is true of our faith.”5 We began by asking whether or not the Bible is historically accurate--whether it is true. We have seen that it is “full of problematical statements,” that it contains “inconsistencies” and that there is “no end to the problems.”

NOTES:

1. Werner Keller, The Bible as History, 2nd revised edition (US: Bantam, 1988) p. 434
2. Ibid, p. 435
3. Ibid, p. 438
4. Ibid, p. 436
5. Ibid, p. 435
...
 
Moreover, all biblical scholars acknowledge the presence of errors in the Tanakh. Let's take a look one at a time.

Contradiction #5
How old was Ahaziah when he began to rule over Jerusalem?
(a) Twenty-two (2 Kings 8:26).
(b) Forty-two (2 Chronicles 22:2).

:w:
 
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None of your contradictions are from the Torah.....

It is the Torah that has to be unchanged, and it is unchanged.

You know the difference between the Torah and TaNaKh, dont you?
 
:sl:, that's fine Morrissey, but then you do agree that the rest of the Tanakh is corrupted and cannot be attributed to God, right?

So you are left believing only a small part of Judaism's scriptures.

Let's continue with our historical examination of the Torah.

To start, we will quote Aaron Demsky:

Another feature of the sabbatical year is the public reading of the Torah during the holiday of Booth (Tabernacles), which concludes the year (Deuteronomy 31:10-13). There is no textual evidence attesting to the observance of the sabbatical and jubilee years in First Temple times. In fact, the auhtor of Chronicles... makes the claim that the 70 sabbatical years from the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites until the destruction of the Temple were not observed (A. Demsky, "Who Returned First: Ezra or Nehemiah", Bible Review, vol. xii, no. 2, April 1996, p.33.)​

According to the Damascus document, the Lord gave the Torah to Moses in its entirety in written form. These writings were sealed in the Ark for approximately five centuries, however, and were therefore unfamiliar to the masses. Discussing the problem of David's adulterous relationship with Bathsheba, and why he was not put to death, the Damascus document answers,
The books of the Law had been sealed in the Ark from the time of Joshua [c. 1200 BCE] until the time of King Josiah of judah [seventh century BCE], when they rediscovered and republished [see 2 Kings 22]. (G.A. Anderson, "Torah Before Sinai - The Do's and Don't Before the Ten Commandments", Bible Review, vol. xii, no. 3, June 1996, p. 43.​

Meaning that David and the Rabbis who were his contemporaries were completely oblivious as to what was written in the Torah.

:w:
 
Ansar Al-'Adl said:
So you are left believing only a small part of Judaism's scriptures.
Since that is the scripture that determines the laws, and the one actually given by God, I would say that's pretty important.

Equally, would anyone say that belief in the Quran (and not your history books) leaves you believing in only a small part of Islamic scripture?
 
Re: The Bible not corrupted?

Very well.

The Torah is not CORRUPT. Now we are on topic. :)

Out of curiosity, how do you know that, I mean, what do Jews rely upon to testify that their book has not been changed newhere as much as a dot.

Eesa.
 
Re: The Bible not corrupted?

Salaam;

http://www.islamweb.net/ver2/archive/article.php?lang=E&id=52247


Who wrote the Bible ?


Specific Contradictions in the Books of the Jews

The following are just a few of many pairs of verses which contradict one another in the books of the Jews:

2 Samuel 8: 4: (7 hundred horsemen)
1 Chronicles 18: 4: (7 thousand horsemen)

1 Chronicles 21: 12: (three years famine)
2 Samuel 24: 13: (seven years famine)

Deuteronomy 2:19 & Deuteronomy 2: 37: (Moses deprived land of Ammon)
Joshua 13: 24-25: (Moses gives land of Ammon as inheritance)

2 Samuel 24: 9: (800,000+500,000)
1 Chronicles 21: 5: (1,100,000+470,000)




2 Chronicles 36: 9: (eight years, three months +10 days)
2 Kings 24: 8: (eighteen years, three months)

[Summarized from an article by: Misheal A. Al-Kadhi]


Wednesday : 10/12/2003



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Re: The Bible not corrupted?

Not to say that the Torah is corrupt but you are making similar accusations towards Islam for this:

Moses and the Israelites kill all the males and take the women and children as slaves
Numbers 31. And the Lord spake unto Moses, saying, 2. Avenge the children of Israel of the Midianites...3. And Moses spake unto the people, saying, Arm some of yourselves unto the war, and let them go against the Midianites, and avenge the Lord of Midian...6. And Moses sent them to the war, a thousand of every tribe...7. And they warred against the Midianites, as the Lord commanded Moses; and they slew all the males. 8. And they slew the kings of Midian, beside the rest of them that were slain; namely, Evi, and Rekem, and Zur, and Hur, and Reba, five kings of Midian: Balaam also the son of Beor they slew with the sword. 9. And the children of Israel took all the women of Midian captives, and their little ones, and took the spoil of all their cattle, and all their flocks, and all their goods. 10. And they burnt all their cities wherein they dwelt, and all their goodly castles, with fire. 11. And they took all the spoil, and all the prey, both of men and of beasts. 12. And they brought the captives, and the prey, and the spoil, unto Moses.”

Moses commands the death of 3 000
Exodus 32: 28 And the children of Levi did according to the word of Moses: and there fell of the people that day about three thousand men.

Judah kills 10 000
Judges 1:4 And Judah went up; and the Lord delivered the Canaanites and the Perizzites into their hand: and they slew of them in Bezek ten thousand men.”

The Israelites killes 12 000 Men and Women
Joshua 8:24-6, And it came to pass, when Israel had made an end of slaying all the inhabitants of Ai in the field, in the wilderness wherein they chased them, and when they were all fallen on the edge of the sword, until they were consumed, that all the Israelites returned unto Ai, and smote it with the edge of the sword. And so it was, that all that fell that day, both of men and women, were twelve thousand, even all the men of Ai. For Joshua drew not his hand back…until he had utterly destroyed all the inhabitants of Ai.
David kills 22 000
2 Samuel 8:5, “And when the Syrians of Damascus came to succour Hadadezer king of Zobah, David slew of the Syrians two and twenty thousand men.

Israelites kill 100 000
1 kings 20:29 and the children of Israel slew of the Syrians an hundred thousand footmen in one day.
 
Re: The Bible not corrupted?

Out of curiosity, how do you know that, I mean, what do Jews rely upon to testify that their book has not been changed newhere as much as a dot.

The Torah has been handed down "ldor vador" from generation to generation. It has never been lost and it has never been changed.

There was never a generation since Moshe without Torah. We have the names. We know who did what and when. (From Aish):

Moses (1272 B.C.E.)
Joshua (1245 B.C.E.)
Pinchus
Eli (929 B.C.E.)
Samuel (889 B.C.E.)
David (876 B.C.E.)
Achiah (800 B.C.E.)
Elijah (726 B.C.E.)
Elishah (717 B.C.E.)
Yehoyada (695 B.C.E.)
Zechariah (680 B.C.E.)
Hoshea (575 B.C.E.)
Amos (560 B.C.E.)
Isaiah (548 B.C.E.)
Michah (560 B.C.E.)
Yoel (510 B.C.E.)
Nachum (510 B.C.E.)
Chavakuk (510 B.C.E.)
Tzafaniah (460 B.C.E.)
Jeremiah (462 B.C.E.)
Baruch (347 B.C.E.)
Ezra (348 B.C.E.)
Shimon Hatzadik (310 B.C.E.)
Antignus of Socho (305 B.C.E.)
Yosi ben Yoezer and
Yosef ben Yochanon (280 B.C.E.)
Yehoshua ben Prachya and
Nitai of Arbel (243 B.C.E.)
Yehuda ben Tabai and
Shimon ben Shetach (198 B.C.E.)
Shmaya & Avtalyon (140 B.C.E.)
Hillel & Shammai (40 B.C.E.)
Rabban Shimon (10 B.C.E.)
Rabban Gamliel Hazaken (20 C.E.)
Rav Shimon ben Gamliel (50)
Rabban Gamliel (90)
Rabban Shimon (140)
Rabbi Yehuda Hanasi (180)
Rav, Shmuel, and Rabbi Yochanon (230)
Rav Huna (270)
Rabbah (310)
Rava (340)
Rav Ashi (420)
Rafram (443)
Rav Sam a B'rei d'Rava (476)
Rav Yosi (514)
Rav Simonia Rav Ravoi Me-Rov (589)
Mar Chanan Me-Ashkaya (608)
Rav Mari
Rav Chana Gaon
Mar Rav Rava
Rav Busai (689)
Mar Rav Huna Mari
Mar Rav Chiyah Me-Mishan
Mar Ravyah
Mar Rav Natronai
Mar Rav Yehuda (739)
Mar Rav Yosef (748)
Mar Rav Shmuel
Mar Rav Natroi Kahana
Mar Rav Avrohom Kahana (761)
Mar Rav Dodai
Rav Chananya (771)
Rav Maika (773)
Mar Rav Rava
Mar Rav Shinoi (782)
Mar Rav Chaninah Gaon Kahana (785)
Mar Rav Huna Mar Halevi (788)
Mar Rav Menasheh (796)
Mar Rav Yeshaya Halevi (804)
Mar Rav Kahanah Gaon (797)
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Ibomai Gaon (814)
Mar Rav Yosef
Mar Rav Avrohom
Mar Rav Yosef (834)
Mar Rav Yitzchak (839)
Mar Rav Yosef (841)
Mar Rav Poltoi (858)
Mar Rav Achai Kahana
Mar Rav Menachem (860)
Mar Rav Matisyahu (869)
Rav Mar Abba
Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon (891)
Mar Rav Hai Gaon (897)
Mar Rav Kimoi Gaon (905)
Mar Rav Yehuda (917)
Mar Rav Mevasser Kahana Gaon (926)
Rav Kohen Tzedek (935)
Mar Rav Tzemach Gaon (937)
Rav Chaninah Gaon (943)
Mar Rav Aharon Hacohen (959)
Mar Rav Nechemiah (968)
Rav Sherirah Gaon (1006)
Meshulam Hagadol
Rav Gershom Meor Hagolah (1040)
Rav Yaakov ben Yakar (1064)
Rav Shlomo Yitzchaki - '"Rashi'" (1105)
R' Shmuel ben Meir (Rashbam) (1174)
R' Yaakov ben Meir (Rabbenu Tam) (1171)
Eliezer Me-Metz (1175)
Rokeach (1238)
R' Yitzchak of Vienna (Ohr Zaruah)
Rav Meir of Rothenberg (1293)
R' Yitzchak of Duren (Shaarei Durah)
R' Alexander Zusiein Hakohen (Agudah) (1348)
Meir Bar Baruch Halevi (1390)
R' Sholom of Neustadt
R' Yaakov Moelin (Maharil) (1427)
R' Yisroel Isserlein (Trumas Hadeshen) (1460)
R' Tavoli
Rabbi Yaakov Margolies (1501)
Rabbi Yaakov Pollak (1530)
Rabbi Sholom Shachna (1558)
Rabbi Moshe Isserles '"Rama'" (1572)
Rabbi Yehoshua Falk Katz (1614)
Rabbi Naftoli Hirsch ben Pesachya (1650)
Rabbi Moshe Rivkas - '"Be'er Hagolah'" (1671)
Rabbi Avraham Gombiner (1682)
Rabbi Moshe Kramer (1688)
Rabbi Eliyahu Chasid (1710)
Rabbi Yissachar Ber (1740)
Rabbi Shlomo Zalman (1765)
Rabbi Eliyahu Kramer - '"Vilna Gaon'" (1797)
Rabbi Chaim Voloziner (1821)
Rabbi Zundel of Salant (1866)
Rabbi Yisroel Salanter (1883)
Rabbi Simcha Zissel of Chelm (1888)
Rabbi Yerucham Lebovitz (1936)

Pirkei Avos (Ethics of the Fathers) Mishna 1

Moshe Ki'bel Torah M'Sinai:

MOSHE RECEIVED (ki'bel) TORAH FROM SINAI AND TRANSMITTED IT (u'm'sa-ra) TO JOSHUA, AND JOSHUA TO THE ELDERS, AND THE ELDERS TO THE PROPHETS, AND THE PROPHETS TRANSMITTED IT TO THE MEN OF THE GREAT ASSEMBLY.


PLUS! After the dead sea scrolls were found, there were no changes to the Tanakh! Whe compared from dead sea scrolls to modern day tanakh only i think a few letters were changed and this did not change a word!!! Just a pronounciations for example "color" or "colour"...

That means it went unchanged for such a long time!

Plus, Torah has been memorized throughout generations, studied very hard and passed down, there is no way it could have been corrupted.

Plus, if you ever go to a shul, when they read the Torah and the reciter messes up a single word, you have 20 people yelling out to correct him.
 
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