What is the proof that the Jews corrupted the Torah?

[YusufNoor]

Re: The Bible not corrupted?

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,

i hope this thread becomes more civilized. i don't KNOW where changes have been made in the Tanakh, although i've seen them suggested. but i'd rather not declare something "bad" that might have Hashem G-d as a source. i've read, in Muhammed Asad's The Messsage of the Qur'an that "changes" referred to "in Scripture" MIGHT be attributed to the Talmud and not the Torah. as in, the Talmud & Mishnah are now the law, and not the Torah. i'd want some pretty good evidence to say this is wrong or that's wrong. or at least a better source than me!

scribes can make errors so when different numbers don't add up, not a big deal to me. the Priestly stuff seems a bit out of place to me though...

The Torah has been handed down "ldor vador" from generation to generation. It has never been lost and it has never been changed.

There was never a generation since Moshe without Torah. We have the names. We know who did what and when. (From Aish):

THAT, however, can be shown untrue by the Tanakh itself.

and Al:

And what authority does the Seerah hold, do you know the level of authenticity it has?

i cited book and pp numbers, YOU TELL ME! :heated:
cuz, i don't know. i could print the footnote at the bottom of the page. oh, and i assuming you're referring to the 1 woman killed. A'isha(RA) is the source for the story.


Peace,



Yusuf

 

[IzakHalevas]

Re: The Bible not corrupted?

the Talmud & Mishnah are now the law, and not the Torah. i'd want some pretty good evidence to say this is wrong or that's wrong. or at least a better source than me!

Since there are 613 laws and all of them come from the Torah. I do not understand what you mean. The Talmud offers commentary and completion to the Torah. The Torah will make a statement and expect you to know the Oral Law. Which was written down when Jews persecuted heavily so it would not be lost. The Oral Law and Torah fit together like puzzle pieces.

I know men who dedicate there lives to studying Talmud and Torah, so I believe that most islamic sources do not have the slightest clue.

THAT, however, can be shown untrue by the Tanakh itself.

That is a conflict of belief.

 

[YusufNoor]

Re: The Bible not corrupted?

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,

=IzakHalevas;601971]Since there are 613 laws and all of them come from the Torah. I do not understand what you mean. The Talmud offers commentary and completion to the Torah. The Torah will make a statement and expect you to know the Oral Law. Which was written down when Jews persecuted heavily so it would not be lost. The Oral Law and Torah fit together like puzzle pieces.

I know men who dedicate there lives to studying Talmud and Torah, so I believe that most islamic sources do not have the slightest clue.

i was relating what Mr. Asad said.(you chopped off part of what i wrote) however, what i "think" he means is that at some point Talmud & Torah are going to contradict and/or when a real hard choice comes down, you chance replacing the "things of G-d" with the "things of man."

THAT, however, can be shown untrue by the Tanakh itself.That is a conflict of belief.[//QUOTE]

the chain of evidence that you gave, it IS NOT in agreement with the Tanakh. (which IS NOT considered an Islamic source.) therefor incorrect. which kind of proves Mr. Asad's point, now that i think of it...

Peace,



Yusuf

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: The Bible not corrupted?

Salaam;

...........Plus, Torah has been memorized throughout generations, studied very hard and passed down, there is no way it could have been corrupted.
..

I did not read ur full post ,this line grabbed my attention.


How many Rabbis are there who memorized the whole Torah ? We regularly have Quran competitions . Quran Hafiz ( those who remember the whole Quran by heart/memorized the Quran ) take part in the competition .

Can u tell me if any Torah memorize competition takes place anywhere in the world ?

 

[IzakHalevas]

Re: The Bible not corrupted?

he means is that at some point Talmud & Torah are going to contradict and/or when a real hard choice comes down, you chance replacing the "things of G-d" with the "things of man."

The Talmud is based on the Torah. There would be no lw that would conflict Halacha.

I did not read ur full post ,this line grabbed my attention.


How many Rabbis are there who memorized the whole Torah ? We regularly have Quran competitions . Quran Hafiz ( those who remember the whole Quran by heart/memorized the Quran ) take part in the competition .

Can u tell me if any Torah memorize competition takes place anywhere in the world ?

In Yeshivas all over the place people memorize the Torah. They have been doing so since before Islam. When the Holocaust began people were soscared Judaism may be wiped out since they were burning all Torah many memorized the Torah.

I think you underestimate the memorization of the Torah is to how it has been preserved.

 

[YusufNoor]

Re: The Bible not corrupted?

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Brother Izak

The Torah has been handed down "ldor vador" from generation to generation. It has never been lost and it has never been changed.

There was never a generation since Moshe without Torah. We have the names. We know who did what and when.

Astaghfirullah, for my asking, but WHY do you believe that? are you required to make that statement? do you say it AND believe it?

it's NOT a correct statement and it IS refuted in the Tanakh.

Peace,



Yusuf

 

[Muslim Woman]

Re: The Bible not corrupted?

Salaam;

....



In Yeshivas all over the place people memorize the Torah. ....

Pl. explain more. How many Rabbis or others memorized the whole Torah now a days ?

How can u check that if really they memorized whole Torah ? Personally did u check by urself ...i mean ask someone to recite from memory & u checked with Torah that s/he recited exactly as it is in Torah ?

There are CD's available online where u can see how Muslims are being tested by other Hafizs . Is there any CD online where we can watch about those who memorized the whole Torah ?

 

[IzakHalevas]

Astaghfirullah, for my asking, but WHY do you believe that? are you required to make that statement? do you say it AND believe it?

it's NOT a correct statement and it IS refuted in the Tanakh.

Are you going to now post these petty "contradictions" that are none other than people who copy and paste propaganda that is untrue?

Pl. explain more. How many Rabbis or others memorized the whole Torah now a days ?

How can u check that if really they memorized whole Torah ? Personally did u check by urself ...i mean ask someone to recite from memory & u checked with Torah that s/he recited exactly as it is in Torah ?

There are CD's available online where u can see how Muslims are being tested by other Hafizs . Is there any CD online where we can watch about those who memorized the whole Torah ?

Since the ultra-orthodox sects who memorize the Torah believe CD's, Internet, TV ect to be evil and part of the temptations to go another path away from G-d, I am not sure you will find many online.

 

[YusufNoor]

Are you going to now post these petty "contradictions" that are none other than people who copy and paste propaganda that is untrue?



Since the ultra-orthodox sects who memorize the Torah believe CD's, Internet, TV ect to be evil and part of the temptations to go another path away from G-d, I am not sure you will find many online.

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,

Astaghfirullah, you misunderstand me. it's IN the Tanakh. i'm waiting for an answer from you before i post it. you can verify it, before i do and change your statement.

i just don't understand why someone has you saying something that isn't true as i don't think that you would knowingly post something that isn't correct. (i'm kinda surprised that you don't know what i'm talking about. PM me, if you want a chance to see it before i post it. just trying to be fair)

Peace,



Yusuf

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam;

........Since the ultra-orthodox sects who memorize the Torah believe CD's, Internet, TV ect to be evil and part of the temptations to go another path away from G-d, I am not sure you will find many online.

How do u know that they memorized the entire Torah ? Did u or some other Rabbis checked it ?

I am not talking about memorizing few chapters ....the whole Torah.

Why is that only ultra-orthodox sects memorized Torah & we can't even see them reciting from memory ? What about other Jews ....why don't they memorized their holy books ?

Thousands if not millions Arab & non-Arabs Muslims memorized the full Quran & there are several tests to decide/prove that yes , really they are Qurane Haifz.


I saw such a CD .....a little boy aged only 5 , Masha Allah , faced a group of senior Hafizs & scholars of different countries ....they asked them to recite from certain chapters & so beautifully & bravely that little Irani boy faced the challenged.

 

[IzakHalevas]

How do u know that they memorized the entire Torah ? Did u or some other Rabbis checked it ?

Actually there is a man at a shul I have gone to sometimes that has a man that has memorized the entire Torah. People test him (i tried it once) by asking him to begin reciting from a random verse.

I just pulled a verse out of my head and he began reciting for about 25 minutes until I told him to stop completly fascinated. It is truly amazing, including when it is done with Quran memorizing as well.

Why is that only ultra-orthodox sects memorized Torah & we can't even see them reciting from memory ? What about other Jews ....why don't they memorized their holy books ?

Most other Jews are secular, but of course there are other Jews that do memorize but I am not sure how many videos they are in. The practice was a lot more prevalent in the times when Jews were persecuted a lot, now with the safety of Jews in countries with no Rome, Christians, or Nazis to kill us, many Jews have not undertaken the great task. I believe they should however.

Thousands if not millions Arab & non-Arabs Muslims memorized the full Quran & there are several tests to decide/prove that yes , really they are Qurane Haifz.


I saw such a CD .....a little boy aged only 5 , Masha Allah , faced a group of senior Hafizs & scholars of different countries ....they asked them to recite from certain chapters & so beautifully & bravely that little Irani boy faced the challenged.

Very impressive, however since the population of Islam is over a billion while Judaism is 14 million and a big majority are secular Jews, I would have to say that it is harder to find in Judaism.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam;

......

I just pulled a verse out of my head and he began reciting for about 25 minutes until I told him to stop completly fascinated....

well, i guess , u don't memorized the whole Torah. So, how do u know that he did not make any mistake ? U checked with Torah & found that he recited exactly as it is in the holy book ?

By the way , the original language of Torah is Hebrew.....am i right ? Do u know Hebrew ?

Earlier u mentioned that Torah is not corrputed as it was/is memorized by many ; then why we don't see them ( what do u call them who memorized the full Torah ?) like we see so many Qurane Hafiz ?


During each Ramadan , Imams all over the world , recite the entire Quran in Tarabi prayer. It's not possible that any one can make any changes in Quran. Hafiz will catch them easily . So, i want to know in details--- how Jews memorized the Torah & saved it from corruption ?

When one claims that s/he memorized the Torah , how Jews check the claim ?

 

[IzakHalevas]

well, i guess , u don't memorized the whole Torah. So, how do u know that he did not make any mistake ? U checked with Torah & found that he recited exactly as it is in the holy book ?

Yes, I watched him say it exactly right not one mistake for 25 minutes as I checked every word he said in the book while he said it. It was truly amazing, as are the Quran memorizers. I picked a random verse, he started and did not stutter or stop for 25 min till i asked him.

If you wish, I will ask him if he would like to be video taped doing this and I could post it here!

By the way , the original language of Torah is Hebrew.....am i right ? Do u know Hebrew ?

Yes. I know Hebrew. I and about 20 others followed him each looking and analyzing every word he said while looking at our Khumashim.

Earlier u mentioned that Torah is not corrputed as it was/is memorized by many ; then why we don't see them ( what do u call them who memorized the full Torah ?) like we see so many Qurane Hafiz ?

We don't really have a name, They are just called "tzadik" righteous people devoting there life to G-d and his Torah.

During each Ramadan , Imams all over the world , recite the entire Quran in Tarabi prayer. It's not possible that any one can make any changes in Quran. Hafiz will catch them easily . So, i want to know in details--- how Jews memorized the Torah & saved it from corruption ?

To tell you the truth I do not know, but we are demanded to have Torah study everyday and other things, in my mind there is no way it could have been corrupted. Jews would have noticed risen up and slayed anyone who tried.

 

[Rami88]

Assalamu 'alaykum,

A`udhu Billahi mina Shaytanir Rajeem,

Bismillahir Rahmanir Raheem

Shalom Izak,

Astaghfirullah, you misunderstand me. it's IN the Tanakh. i'm waiting for an answer from you before i post it. you can verify it, before i do and change your statement.

i just don't understand why someone has you saying something that isn't true as i don't think that you would knowingly post something that isn't correct. (i'm kinda surprised that you don't know what i'm talking about. PM me, if you want a chance to see it before i post it. just trying to be fair)

Peace,



Yusuf

Assalamu 'alaykum

Post it please.

 

[YusufNoor]

Assalamu 'alaykum

Post it please.

here's the original statement that i said was refuted IN THE TANAKH!:

The Torah has been handed down "ldor vador" from generation to generation. It has never been lost and it has never been changed.

There was never a generation since Moshe without Torah. We have the names. We know who did what and when.

now read II Kings chapter 22 [makes it easy to remember!]:

2 Kings 22
Josiah Succeeds Amon
1(A)Josiah was eight years old when he became king, and he reigned thirty-one years in Jerusalem; and his mother's name was Jedidah the daughter of Adaiah of (B)Bozkath.

2He did right in the sight of the LORD and walked in all the way of his father David, nor did he (C)turn aside to the right or to the left.

3Now (D)in the eighteenth year of King Josiah, the king sent Shaphan, the son of Azaliah the son of Meshullam the scribe, to the house of the LORD saying,

4"(E)Go up to Hilkiah the high priest that he may count the money brought in to the house of the LORD which the doorkeepers have gathered from the people.

5"(F)Let them deliver it into the hand of the workmen who have the oversight of the house of the LORD, and let them give it to the workmen who are in the house of the LORD to repair the damages of the house,

6to the carpenters and the builders and the masons and for buying timber and hewn stone to repair the house.

7"Only (G)no accounting shall be made with them for the money delivered into their hands, for they deal faithfully."
The Lost Book
8Then Hilkiah the high priest said to Shaphan the scribe, "(H)I have found the book of the law in the house of the LORD." And Hilkiah gave the book to Shaphan who read it.

9Shaphan the scribe came to the king and brought back word to the king and said, "Your servants have emptied out the money that was found in the house, and have delivered it into the hand of the workmen who have the oversight of the house of the LORD."

10Moreover, Shaphan the scribe told the king saying, "Hilkiah the priest has given me a book." And Shaphan read it in the presence of the king.

11When the king heard the words of the book of the law, (I)he tore his clothes.

12Then the king commanded Hilkiah the priest, (J)Ahikam the son of Shaphan, (K)Achbor the son of Micaiah, Shaphan the scribe, and Asaiah the king's servant saying,

13"Go, inquire of the LORD for me and the people and all Judah concerning the words of this book that has been found, for (L)great is the wrath of the LORD that burns against us, because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us."
Huldah Predicts
14So Hilkiah the priest, Ahikam, Achbor, Shaphan, and Asaiah went to Huldah the prophetess, the wife of Shallum the son of (M)Tikvah, the son of Harhas, keeper of the wardrobe (now she lived in Jerusalem in the (N)Second Quarter); and they spoke to her.

15She said to them, "Thus says the LORD God of Israel, 'Tell the man who sent you to me,

16thus says the LORD, "Behold, I (O)bring evil on this place and on its inhabitants, even all the words of the book which the king of Judah has read.

17"(P)Because they have forsaken Me and have burned incense to other gods that they might provoke Me to anger with all the work of their hands, therefore My wrath burns against this place, and it shall not be quenched."'

18"But to (Q)the king of Judah who sent you to inquire of the LORD thus shall you say to him, 'Thus says the LORD God of Israel, "Regarding the words which you have heard,
19(R)because your heart was tender and (S)you humbled yourself before the LORD when you heard what I spoke against this place and against its inhabitants that they should become (T)a desolation and a (U)curse, and you have (V)torn your clothes and wept before Me, I truly have heard you," declares the LORD.

20"Therefore, behold, I will gather you to your fathers, and (W)you will be gathered to your grave in peace, and your eyes will not see all the evil which I will bring on this place."'" So they brought back word to the king.

in the Rubin Edition of The Prophets published by Mesorah Publications' a VERY conservative company that publishes phenomenal versions of the Torah and Tanakh [i have MANY of their publications] translates verse 8:

...i have found the Torah Scroll in the Temple of Hashem...

in v 11, Hilkiah goes into mourning because and THEN he has to send [in v 13] to "inquire" of the Prophetess "concerning the book"

WHY? [v13], because our fathers have not listened to the words of this book, to do according to all that is written concerning us!

now, lets see what we've been told here:

1 a scroll of the Law (Torah) has been found

2 the King, Hilkiah, had to ask a prophetess if, in fact, that scroll was authentic! WHY? he had NEVER heard the Torah before!
and

3 the people hadn't heard it before either!

conclusion:

the Torah had indeed been lost!

alternative conclusion:

the "scroll" found was NOT the ENTIRE Torah, just the Book of Deuteronomy. WHY hadn't anyone heard this book before? because Jeremiah had dictated it to his scribe Baruch. see:
http://www.amazon.com/Wrote-Bible-Richard-Elliott-Friedman/dp/0060630353

the result:

this is EXACTLY WHY the Nation of Judah was destroyed! they were THE "People of the Book" who
LOST said book! God destroyed them for this, IT'S IN THEIR BOOK!!!!!

i'm kinda surprised someone finally asked!

JazakAllah Khair,

:wa:

 

[syed_z]

Salaam to all...

i don't know if you Brothers/sisters have Heard about a Book named "Who Wrote the Bible" by Harvard Trained Biblical Scholar named Richard Friedman....he proved that after the death of Hazrat Suleiman (a.s) (Solomon), that Israelites made many interpolations and changes in the Old Testament....


The Israelites removed all references in the Torah to the temple (or masjid) built
by Hadrat Ibrahim (AS) and Hadrat Isma'il (AS) in Arabia. The Kaaba and the Hajj are no longer to be found in the Torah!

They also substituted all references to Hadrat Isma'il (AS) as the son of the sacrifice with the name of his brother Hadrat Ishaq (AS), even though Ishaq (AS) was not even born when the trial of the sacrifice took place.

They substituted Arabia with Palestine as the place of the sacrifice. Zam Zam, the miraculous spring of water which sprang from the desert sand when Jibra'il (AS) rubbed his heel on the sand, now became a well in Palestine.

They demonized Hadrat Isma'il (AS) and excluded him from Allah's covenant so that they could claim exclusive title to being the chosen people of Allah. But most dangerous of all was their corruption and willful distortion of the Divine prohibition against Usury. They rewrote the Torah to make it permissible for money to be lent on interest to non-Jews while yet maintaining the prohibition against Usury in intra-Jewish transactions (Deuteronomy 23:20-21)


Also just to verify the above about Interest Based Transactions, Jesus Son Mary (a.s) had argued and warned the Jews against the dealings of Interest Based transactions that they were dealing at the time. He cursed them, turned over their tables, chased them out of the masjid and declared: "You have taken the house of Allah and transformed it into a den of thieves."

Book of Mathews Chapter 12 Verses 33 34...


Please review the Interview of Richard Friedman here...

http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/2004/02/The-Editorial-Team-Behind-The-Bible.aspx


There is plenty of evidence out there that Old Testament has gone through many changes!

 

[Rabi Mansur]

Salaam to all...

i don't know if you Brothers/sisters have Heard about a Book named "Who Wrote the Bible" by Harvard Trained Biblical Scholar named Richard Friedman....he proved that after the death of Hazrat Suleiman (a.s) (Solomon), that Israelites made many interpolations and changes in the Old Testament....

Yes! Thanks for mentioning "Who Wrote the Bible?" I studied that book a few years ago and HIGHLY recommend it for anyone who is serious about how the Torah came to be. Very good book.

:wa:

 

[muslim787]

None of your contradictions are from the Torah.....

It is the Torah that has to be unchanged, and it is unchanged.
+o(
You know the difference between the Torah and TaNaKh, dont you?

Hi,

Tanakh being Jewish version of the Old Testament, first 5 books of which are called the Torah.

Amazing feat, being able to keep alomost word perfect copy of 3000 year old manuscript. Unfortunately we don't know if it is the same Torah given to Moses by Allah swt. Until the day comes when the orginal is discovered, preserved in a jar somewhere, we can all but study the script for clues on authorship.

Genesis is a good starting point, consider chapter 14.

The writer gives an account of Lot being taken prisoner in a battle between the four kings against five, and carried off; and that when the account of Lot being taken came to Abraham, that he armed all his household and marched to rescue Lot from the captors; and that he pursued them unto Dan. (ver. 14.)

source: jewish virtual library genesis 14 (I'm not currently allowed to post links)

Problem here is that there was no place called Dan in the time of Moses who died approx 1451 BC.

In fact, Dan didn't even come into being until after the death of the Prophet Samson who died 1101 BC. A whopping 350 years after Moses!

Moses : all the w's conservapedia dot co m / Moses
Samson : all the w's conservapedia dot co m / Samson

The place that is called Dan in the Bible was originally a town of the Gentiles, called Laish; and when the tribe of Dan seized upon this town, they changed its name to Dan, in commemoration of Dan, who was the father of that tribe, and the great grandson of Abraham.

Judges 18:26-29

26 And the children of Dan went their way; and when Micah saw that they were too strong for him, he turned and went back unto his house.

27 And they took that which Micah had made, and the priest whom he had, and came unto Laish, unto a people quiet and secure, and smote them with the edge of the sword; and they burnt the city with fire.

28 And there was no deliverer, because it was far from Zidon, and they had no dealings with any man; and it was in the valley that lieth by Beth-rehob. And they built the city, and dwelt therein.

29 And they called the name of the city Dan, after the name of Dan their father, who was born unto Israel; howbeit the name of the city was Laish at the first.

ref: jewishvirtuallibrary dot org / jsource/Bible / Judges18 .h t m l

So to summarize, parts of Genesis written approx 350 years after Moses. Some Scholars say it may have been written whilst the Jews were in exile, perhaps in Babylon.

Peace be upon all the Prophets of Allah swt mentioned above.

 

[جوري]

oral traditions if not written down and super-imposed for veracity have a way of evolving by chinese whispers. You should conduct that experiment yourself, tell your friend something and have them tell that to someone else for every day of the week and then the last person who heard it should report it back to you, and let's see how close that is to what you have originally stated before requesting that we under or over-estimate the power of Jewish memory!

all the best

 

[Hugo]

Yes! Thanks for mentioning "Who Wrote the Bible?" I studied that book a few years ago and HIGHLY recommend it for anyone who is serious about how the Torah came to be. Very good book.

You might also try "Who wrote the Bible by Washington Gladden and you can get it as as an eBook - but the Bible is NOT just the Torah is it. For balance you might also read Mondher Sfar's book "In Search of the Original Qu'ran - A true history of the text. They are both (including Friedman) interesting because they separate revelation from transmission, if you like they ignore the supernatural aspects and concentrate entirely on what we might call material facts - I think that is an admirable thing to do, do you?

(By the way even as an eBook Friedman costs about $15)