What is the solution to all this conflict? What is the way to the modern world?

[LearnIslam]

Hello,

I saw this thread on an unified Islamic state/nation : http://www.islamicboard.com/world-a...mah-unite-politically-create-pan-islamic.html

I just felt, even before an unified Islamic nation, the existing Islamic nations should get along. I can't understand why all this discord exists in the M.East and Islamic world.

What the OP in the other thread outlined was important in one way - what is the Muslim world's contribution to science and technology in the modern world? How many scientists, engineers does it produce? Most of the wealth of the GCC countries comes from natural resources, and the many other Islamic countries are war-ridden.

So my point of discussion in this thread : Is there more than one idea of what an ideal Islamic nation should be like? Does that nation have a freedom of expression? Of information? Which Islamic nation would be the best example to emulate for the modern world - one that lives by Islamic habits and at the same time can keep up with times?

 

[Umar Ibn Farooq]

IMO, There is currently no Muslim nation in the world. Most of the so-called Muslim nations follow democracy and not the law of Allah. The law of Allah is the solution to world hunger, poverty, unfairness, crimes and so on so forth.

 

[BlueOwl358]

Gotta agree with the above posters. There is no real and present Islamic state, not in the slightest. Why? Because the notions of Nationalism and National Support for a nation based on non Islamic fundamentals contradicts the Islamic Law. There is no Islamic Law used, merely foreign codes that have developed over the past. An Islamic state stays entirely in the Islamic domain of Law, something which does not exist.

For such a state to exist, a specific state must remove any ideas of nationhood based on nationalism or culture or ethnicity, and work solely in the Islamic domain. Or we could just buy a Greek Island and establish our own country.

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

I have read a lot of posts on this forum and I have formed the view that many Muslims here believe that the cause of the failure of Muslims countries is that they are not Muslim enough!

First: I presume by successful country we mean one which provides it citizens with a prosperous, safe, comfortable, well managed, well organised, opportune life. From what I have read Islam is totally focussed on pleasing God so that God will provide a luxurious after-life. If your primary purpose in life is to prepare for death you are never going have a prosperous comfortable life. And making those Muslim administrators more Muslim might get some reward in heaven but will not make the country more prosperous, safer, more comfortable, better managed, better organised, more opportune.

It will be difficult, probably impossible, for you to accept but Islam as a system of Governance doesn't work in the 21st century. In fact it wouldn't work in any century for the past 1000 years.

 

[Aaqib]

^Pretty sure Allah has as well told us to enjoy our life on this dunya^
Just live your life, just keep with the praying 5 times a day, but still enjoy your life.

 

[Abz2000]

I have read a lot of posts on this forum and I have formed the view that many Muslims here believe that the cause of the failure of Muslims countries is that they are not Muslim enough!

First: I presume by successful country we mean one which provides it citizens with a prosperous, safe, comfortable, well managed, well organised, opportune life. From what I have read Islam is totally focussed on pleasing God so that God will provide a luxurious after-life. If your primary purpose in life is to prepare for death you are never going have a prosperous comfortable life. And making those Muslim administrators more Muslim might get some reward in heaven but will not make the country more prosperous, safer, more comfortable, better managed, better organised, more opportune.

It will be difficult, probably impossible, for you to accept but Islam as a system of Governance doesn't work in the 21st century. In fact it wouldn't work in any century for the past 1000 years.

there's no need to be rude and arrogant in your false assertion since you peddle a system that cannot even define itself, but is a declining and utterly discredited empire which sustains itself temporarily and hazardously off war and unbacked promissory debt notes that were issued on a promise of faith to return sterling silver pound weight for pound note by the monarch and is about to go bust due to the build up of inflation and debt while heading towards and promoting total servitude to a dictatorship and tyranny of international bankers.
claiming to be christian once, a constitutional monarchy another time, a secular democracy (if ever one existed) again another time, a racist nation state another time, rejects the u.n and lies outright to the people to the extent of fabricating evidence and making totally false accusations when it wants to involve in illegal wars, and is unable to enforce any type of local copyright or citizens/foreigners rights without subjection to an international body or the law of the jungle.
you should bow your head in humility when you speak of the system prescribed by your creator which your leaders know works, and whose potential on a fair playing field they are afraid of and have been exhausting themselves to cover behind a screen of falsehood and sabotage, know that the time of falsehood is nearing it's final throes, because God never fails in His promise.

it's not the loaded version of "religion" you've been made to falsely perceive all your life,
it is a global system that encompasses the moral, economic, intellectual (with honesty and honour), military, personal, spiritual, plus all other aspects of life on earth, from which the calculations for grades after leaving will be made.

We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time Magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected their promises of discretion for almost 40 years...
...It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subjected to the lights of publicity during those years.
But, the world is more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world government.
The supernational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the national autodetermination practiced in past centuries.

David Rockefeller

On February 17, 1950, James Paul Warburg confidently declared to the United States Senate:
“We shall have World Government, whether or not we like it.
The only question is whether World Government will be achieved by*conquest or consent.”

you may want to google the name to see who he is.

1The righteous perisheth, and no man layeth*it*to heart: and merciful men*are*taken away,
none considering that the righteous is taken away from the evil*to come.
2He shall enter into peace: they shall rest in their beds,*each one walking*in*his uprightness.

3But draw near hither, ye sons of the sorceress, the seed of the adulterer and the wh0re.
4Against whom do ye sport yourselves?
against whom make ye a wide mouth,*and*draw out the tongue?
*are*ye not children of transgression, a seed of falsehood,
5Enflaming yourselves with idols under every green tree, slaying the children in the valleys under the clifts of the rocks?

Isaiah 57

It is He who has sent His Messenger with guidance and the way of life that is true, to manifest it over all ways of life,
although they who associate others with Allah dislike it.

Quran 9:33

It is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the way of life that is true, to manifest it over all ways of life.
And sufficient is Allah as Witness.

29.*Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah.
and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other.
Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure.
On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat;
and their similitude in the Gospel is: like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them.
Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward
Quran 48:28-29

 

[ardianto]

I have read a lot of posts on this forum and I have formed the view that many Muslims here believe that the cause of the failure of Muslims countries is that they are not Muslim enough!

First: I presume by successful country we mean one which provides it citizens with a prosperous, safe, comfortable, well managed, well organised, opportune life. From what I have read Islam is totally focussed on pleasing God so that God will provide a luxurious after-life. If your primary purpose in life is to prepare for death you are never going have a prosperous comfortable life. And making those Muslim administrators more Muslim might get some reward in heaven but will not make the country more prosperous, safer, more comfortable, better managed, better organised, more opportune.

It will be difficult, probably impossible, for you to accept but Islam as a system of Governance doesn't work in the 21st century. In fact it wouldn't work in any century for the past 1000 years.

In one thread I wrote that one cause why there are many problems in Muslim societies is lack of open-mindedness. Maybe there are Muslim who believe that the cause of the failure of Muslims countries is that they are not Muslim enough, and this is an example of lack of open-mindedness.

Indeed, there are Muslims who focus only to after-life and ignore building prosperity in the worldly life. But actually this is wrong. If Muslims are not prosperous, how can they help other Muslims who are still poor?. To be honest, I often wonder with attitude of many Muslims. When a poor Muslim say that he is hungry, instead of give him food and help him to able to work, the wealthy Muslim just tell him to be patient and see his hunger as a test from Allah, but does not help him although this wealthy Muslim can help and actually has duty to help.

There are many problems in the Muslim world that caused by Muslims themselves. But unfortunately, many Muslims are not willing to admit it.

 

[Umar Ibn Farooq]

Live life according to Allah and the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (saw). Life isn't just about reading Salah 5 times a day. The Sahabah's always used to aim for the best in everything according to the teachings of Allah and the Prophet Muhammad (saw). Being a Muslim doesn't fully define us worshipping Allah five times a day. Being a Muslim means obeying Allah and following the teachings of the Prophet Muhammad (saw). I'm sorry for being repetitive but when we have Muslims having this type of knowledge towards Allah, someone has to tell the truth.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Christians have gone though centuries of wars with other Christians, each claiming to have the "truth". Why should it surprise anybody that Muslims would do the same to other Muslims, also claiming to have the "truth"? This is simple tribalism (us vs them thinking) mixed with calls to ultimate authority (envisioned as Gods). It will has and will happen over and over. It is sadly part of human nature.

Only way to break through that would be to see each other, all of each other, as true brothers and sisters, with no shouts at and derision of kafir or infidel or alien or outsider. It sadly just isn't in our nature, at least not without some strong external threat. Maybe space aliens invading would band all of us humans together. I can't think of any way short of that.

 

[JohnnyEnglish]

From an outside objective perspective it seems to be that Islam is the reason that Muslim countries fail to 'succeed'not least because:

1. Some Muslims believe that Islam is a religion and others beleive it is a system of governance (a system of governance that defines that standards should remain fixed in the 7th century).
2. There will always be Muslims who believe that killing other Muslims will please God because they aren't 'proper' Muslims.

 

[Abz2000]

Christians have gone though centuries of wars with other Christians, each claiming to have the "truth".Why should it surprise anybody that Muslims would do the same to other Muslims, also claiming to have the "truth"? This is simple tribalism (us vs them thinking) mixed with calls to ultimate authority (envisioned as Gods). It will has and will happen over and over. It is sadly part of human nature.

it is forbidden to kill a Believer in Allah, the recompense for such a killer is hell.

those who professed to believe in the message given to Christ were the true believers until the final message was revealed to Muhammad pbuh, and each group has struggled with criminals or the misguided amongst its ranks claiming to be believers while actually causing dissention amongst the main body which is upon the truth as prescribed. to say that the truth causes rifts and divisions and therefore out to be discarded or suppressed is the worst type of foolishness any fool could fathom.
sounds like the deceptive, pseudo-scientific method used by aldous huxley's "western word controller" from the utopian brave new world in order to herd a bunch of brain-dead zombies.

scroll to 3 minutes 15 seconds to see how the irrational is falsely rationalized.

Only way to break through that would be to see each other, all of each other, as true brothers and sisters, with no shouts at and derision of kafir or infidel or alien or outsider. It sadly just isn't in our nature, at least not without some strong external threat. Maybe space aliens invading would band all of us humans together. I can't think of any way short of that.

ahhh, how wonderful it would be if your government saw everyone as true citizens, brothers and sisters, with no shouts at and derision of criminal or treasonous or illegal or foreigner. It just sadly isn't in our nature nor is it the nature prescribed by God.
except with "reagan's alien speech"
a modus operandi to which the u.s government has adhered for over a century, always having or creating one strawman opponent or another - like orwell's goldstein, seems like they decided it was the only way of preventing the peoples energy and scrutiny from being focused on the government while it continued it's crimes such as iran contra drugs and weapons deals.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag44dRO8LEA

the only way mankind can unite harmoniously and peacefully is when we submit to the authority of Almighty God.

 

[Abz2000]

From an outside objective perspective it seems to be that Islam is the reason that Muslim countries fail to 'succeed'not least because:

1. Some Muslims believe that Islam is a religion and others beleive it is a system of governance (a system of governance that defines that standards should remain fixed in the 7th century).
2. There will always be Muslims who believe that killing other Muslims will please God because they aren't 'proper' Muslims.

1. depends on what one means when using the term "religion". the second part about the 7th century is totally untrue, the tyrants prove this by their fear and revulsion to all the fatwas (legislative rulings derived from current circumstance based on and in the spirit of the Law and seeking the will of God).
2. that is a malicious falsehood. we only fight to establish the laws and will of God, and we do not fight against people who are law abiding citizens of this universe. nor do we ever condone making laws that are contrary to the laws of the universe.
a Muslim is defined by Islam, not just by a name or label otherwise we could all call ourselves the queen of england.

 

[M.I.A.]

Hard question.

Though about it for a while.

A lot of things like tolerance and fair representation for all.

The government, the opposition, the people.

The difficulty in maintaining a vaneer of civility..and its importance.

But all those things are overshadowed by the bottom line.

For a unified state and good relations to exist. A call to success is required.

When one party seeks to protect its own interests then those obvious divisions become important, when they could easily have been overlooked.

I guess that's where my answer leaves me. At a crossroads between a purely material and physical answer...

And something else entirely.


For a real unified state. A real understanding of the crossroad is needed.


And even leaders are lead.



https://38.media.tumblr.com/143b9ecfcba392d2aed7e03fa723f43b/tumblr_norfi2xWKm1u3d4lbo1_250.gif

 

[Abz2000]

Hard question.

Though about it for a while.

A lot of things like tolerance and fair representation for all.

all law abiding citizens who submit to God deserve the best treatment.

The government, the opposition, the people.

the government and authority is God's right, any government which seeks to impose a way of life in contrast against the Quran and Sunnah is criminal and merits the wrath of God,
opposition to God is a crime
a person who opposes God is a criminal.

The difficulty in maintaining a vaneer of civility..and its importance.

how do you define civility?

But all those things are overshadowed by the bottom line.

and what is the bottom line?

For a unified state and good relations to exist. A call to success is required.

i hear a call to success at least 5 times a day. success comes from humbly submitting to God and accepting His guidance as the ultimate wisdom.

When one party seeks to protect its own interests then those obvious divisions become important, when they could easily have been overlooked.

which is why we are able to unite upon the guidance of God and discard selfish rivalries.

I guess that's where my answer leaves me. At a crossroads between a purely material and physical answer...


And something else entirely.

is the above statement a riddle?

For a real unified state. A real understanding of the crossroad is needed.

i'll break the cross for you then you won't have any regrets or fear of enmity.
may Allah guide us along the STRAIGHT PATH, the path of those whome He has favoured and bestowed His blessings upon, and not the path of those who earned His wrath, nor of those who stray.

And even leaders are lead.

they ought to be led by a desire to succeed and make the people succeed, and that comes about by establishing the laws of Allah.
i don't think they ought to be "lead" though, because Allah tells them that even if they were iron or stones or anything even tougher in their imagination, they will still be ressurected.

https://38.media.tumblr.com/143b9ecfcba392d2aed7e03fa723f43b/tumblr_norfi2xWKm1u3d4lbo1_250.gif[/QUOTE]

 

[Abz2000]

Gods laws and man's laws?

I still can't get past cutting the hands of thieves.

Still learning I suppose.

well, it depends on if you've thieved and been thieved from and therefore recognize the destructive psychology required and the detrimental effects of such a crime as theft.

as someone who spent his youth bunking off of school and madrassah while stealing books and pens and stuff from smiths which stacked the shelves and had to be explained as "from the jumbo sale" or borrowed from the local library" to mom, who spent his college days living large off cloned credit and debit cards, who rinsed out the latest mobile phones from the orange shop on oxford street where he worked by getting his friends to come in as customers and buy them with dodgy cards,
and who's later had items of (relatively) high value (including sentimental) stolen from him, including achieving the experience of watching thieving employees almost run down a thriving legitimate business into which a lot of hard work had gone, having gone to the lengths of installing expensive cctv equipment at the shop - i have had the opportunity to see it from a wider angle and can assure you that repentance heals, but continued fear of theft is detrimental to the success of a healthy society.
it is worse for a man steal than to beg to sympathic people. the first is haram and creates mistrust and enmity, the latter, though not ideal, creates sympathy, community and pity.

But your answer is the epitome of personal success.. Nobodys path is one of unification.

The straight path, we are what we are and yet.. Your still going to tell me the truth of all that i have done?

Sorry this ones a little less coherent than my usual rants lol.

Imma go do a mbti test rather than an imdb test.

my still going to tell you the truth? what's my still?
i've told you some of the truth about myself - oh i'm dropping dimes today!
you're better off doing a murtad test and we're all better off repenting and submitting to the authority of God.

 

[M.I.A.]

It's a long day I guess lol.


But given time to change, most people do I would assume.

...at least your not armless.

Although maybe the circles you move in have changed.

 

[Pygoscelis]

it is forbidden to kill a Believer in Allah, the recompense for such a killer is hell.

But Muslims have and do kill other Muslims. My guess is they get by your statement above by claiming for themselves that the people they are killing are not true Muslims, and my guess is that you disclaim the people doing the killing as not true Muslims. The Christians did/do that too. So do many other groups, religious and otherwise, who claim to be "true" [insert philosophy or religion or other label here]s.

to say that the truth causes rifts and divisions and therefore out to be discarded or suppressed is the worst type of foolishness any fool could fathom.

If there was a simple unified and universally known Truth, then it would indeed be foolish. But by "truth" (note the quotation marks) I meant what people understand to be true. The person who strongly disagrees with you on what truth is, is often just as certain as you are that they are correct. This can lead to conflict, especially if you attach this "truth" to something ultimate and authoritative, like a God.

If there is a real God, one has to wonder why that God (or Gods) didn't make it universally known to all what is true. That there are competing religions and competing understandings within religions, and that there is atheism, shows that if there is a God, he God didn't want such perfect understanding by all. I can't fathom why that would be. Is there a standard Islamic answer for it? Reminds me of the Tower of Babel story in the bible where God is said to have created all the different languages because he wanted to confuse man and stop man from cooperating with each other and building a ladder to the heavens.

ahhh, how wonderful it would be if your government saw everyone as true citizens, brothers and sisters, with no shouts at and derision of criminal or treasonous or illegal or foreigner.

Not sure what you mean by my government. Is there something particularly bad about the Canadian government? But yes, wouldn't that be great if we could all learn to empathize with one another and see each other as equals and stop all the bigotries and other tribal tensions? Perhaps with more evolved ethics we can learn to get passed this unfortunate bit of human nature.

the only way mankind can unite harmoniously and peacefully is when we submit to the authority of Almighty God.

Or when we learn to stop pushing our religious and political agendas on others, and truly live and let live.

 

[ardianto]

From an outside objective perspective it seems to be that Islam is the reason that Muslim countries fail to 'succeed'not least because:

Actually the cause why mostly of Muslim majority countries are still failed is because their people mindset that very affected by culture, not by Islam. They just use Islam as excuse. In example, there are Muslim who are lazy to work, and it makes them poor. But when other people ask why don't they work better to increase their income, they say "Oh, sustenance is arranged by Allah. If Allah decide I should get sustenance, then I would get sustenance. If Allah decide my time to get sustenance hasn't come, then I must wait".

My friend Johnny (I am a middle age man too), it's better if you do not make conclusion about Muslims too fast before you know more about Muslims.

 

[Abz2000]

But Muslims have and do kill other Muslims. My guess is they get by your statement above by claiming for themselves that the people they are killing are not true Muslims, and my guess is that you disclaim the people doing the killing as not true Muslims. The Christians did/do that too. So do many other groups, religious and otherwise, who claim to be "true" [insert philosophy or religion or other label here]s.

come on pygo, i expected you to know better,

wouldn't you say i was being stupid if i said that Americans do kill other Americans or that kafirs do kill other kafirs? it would be nonsensical wouldn't it?
i've seen them electrocuting, gassing, lethaly injecting others.
there's a difference between murder and enforcement of the best way of life.

and it is a hands down fact that God who created us is in a better position to judge, legislate and tell us what's right,
a crookedand corrupt oil company tycoon is in no position to lay claim to such authority and the fact that some people believed it to be so that it is ok for a selfish and imperfect human being to be the ultimate authority for such sensitive judgements is a sign of prevalent madness. and it would be even more mad if they delegated such authority to google which they created with their own hands. (akin to the idols which have no ability to guide or the microchipped "super-human" created with susceptibility to hacking who they manipulate into taking a certain direction and then follow the self manipulated ruling despite knowing it's false,, or like a stringed puppet who you ask, which way? and then get it to point in the wrong direction just so you can convince everyone to follow it).

it comes down to "which judgement is the best to apply universally and without making it a hotchpotch of confusion"
and when we think about it, when we deeply consider the facts surrounding us and self-evident to everyone in the universe, we come to the conclusion that the One who makes the planets orbit and the sun to appear and the rain to fall and the thunder to strike, who created the laws for humans to develo, reproduce, sustain, and even the laws for bacteria to attack and decompose, to whom we get resurrected and judged in complete truth, is the best to submit to.

If there was a simple unified and universally known Truth, then it would indeed be foolish. But by "truth" (note the quotation marks) I meant what people understand to be true. The person who strongly disagrees with you on what truth is, is often just as certain as you are that they are correct. This can lead to conflict, especially if you attach this "truth" to something ultimate and authoritative, like a God.

If there is a real God, one has to wonder why that God (or Gods) didn't make it universally known to all what is true. That there are competing religions and competing understandings within religions, and that there is atheism, shows that if there is a God, he God didn't want such perfect understanding by all. I can't fathom why that would be. Is there a standard Islamic answer for it? Reminds me of the Tower of Babel story in the bible where God is said to have created all the different languages because he wanted to confuse man and stop man from cooperating with each other and building a ladder to the heavens.



Not sure what you mean by my government. Is there something particularly bad about the Canadian government? But yes, wouldn't that be great if we could all learn to empathize with one another and see each other as equals and stop all the bigotries and other tribal tensions? Perhaps with more evolved ethics we can learn to get passed this unfortunate bit of human nature.

it has been made so from the beginning that we will know no absolute truth and find none in the case of interaction amongst humans other than the fact that God is One, and that He knows better than us, and that we would do good to find and learn His guidance as much as we can and follow that guidance as much as we can.
this has been the case since the time diabolis refused to accept the wisdom and has also been demonstrated in the disobedience to Adam.
we (mankind) are nearing the end of our term on planet earth and we still cannot explain whose fault Adam's disobedience was without some confusion, some blame God, some blame Iblis, some say iblis was only doing God's bidding, others lay the blame squarely on Adam, others say he was meant to do it and so on, and i have never seen anyone with the ability to explain it without hitting a flaw in their reasoning, and no one has been able to explain it without getting stuck at a question that comes like a hardball.
we can theorise till the last day but we'll only ever be able to agree upon the point that it would have been wiser to have obeyed God and left the calculations to Him.
the answer cannot be mathematical as it is way more complicated, and humans trying to imagine they can drive the thing without God's assistance is a madness which they'd deeply regret.
better to say, ok Boss, you know best - when God makes a command that way we get off scott free.


the fact can also be seen in the evolvement of the laws in the scriptures and in the conception of Mary (as) which left hwr people astounded.

Or when we learn to stop pushing our religious and political agendas on others, and truly live and let live.[/QUOTE]

 

[M.I.A.]

random vid post...yay