What is your opinion on countries like Jordan and Turkey?

[Cheb]

You can add UAE, Lebanon, Morocco, Tunisia, Bahrain, Qatar, Kuwait, to that list. I am sure there are more those are the countries that I can think of right now that are becoming less and less like a Muslim country. Actually I am not sure if Lebanon counts since the president is (and has to be) a Christian.

 

[Muezzin]

While all this finger-pointing is very entertaining, how constructive is it?

I mean, yes, we've identified the 'problem areas', but have we done anything to change them?

 

[Duhaa]

While all this finger-pointing is very entertaining, how constructive is it?

I mean, yes, we've identified the 'problem areas', but have we done anything to change them?

Praying for them is a start.

 

[Muezzin]

Praying for them is a start.

Very true.

We could also do our best to be good, polite, friendly Muslims and attract people back into the fold by just being excellent. It worked for the Prophet (SAW), I'm sure it'll work for us

 

[Safa]

Agreed,doing what the Prophet (pbuh) did can lead people to know how excellent he (pbuh) was, in terms of behavior and manners, instead of having false notions about violence.

 

[Guli7]

I'm tired of people talking so bad about Americans. We influence people in other countries yes but the people take it above and beyond. I am more conservative than some of my cousins in my country in Europe.

I have known covered girls who come from Turkey here to go to universities because they weren't allowed to go back home. Muslims have more rights here than they do there where they can't even step in government buildings with a hijab on. The newspapers in parts of Europe show nudity and they don't censor things on basic cable tv like we do here.

The youth look at the wrong part of American culture and take it to the max. I'm American and even though I may not agree with some of the government policies, I can say that I am proud of a few things that the people as a whole are allowed to do and can accomplish. thanks

 

[Guli7]

also in parts of Europe drinking, having sex, and smoking is legal at age 16. In America drinking age is 21, for the other things the age is 18. There are some things that we are more conservative and I'm tired of people only thinking of the negative.

no offense to Europeans...............

 

[Lush]

I am very disappointed to see a beautiful country like Jordan slandered here.

I lived there for two months, I worked, played, I went to the clubs and drank, and I also listened to the minarets early in the morning and was overcome by their beauty. I was treated so well. I loved the food. I loved the Dead Sea. I loved how it was perfectly Ok for me to walk out into the street in my jeans and t-shirt, and mix with covered women, and not have to worry about being attacked for who I am, just like they didn't have to worry for being attacked for who they were.

Jordainians are wonderful people. There are so many different things to see, the immigrant Armenian neighbourhoods where the women tie their scarves sideways, the bedouin communities 'round Ma'an, the universities, the mosques, and everything in between.

In Jordan, people of different backgrounds and convictions can mix and get along. It's not a perfect society, by far, but it's a beautiful society, and the self-righteous trashing that has gone on in this thread is repulsive to me. And I thought that backbiting was wrong.

 

[Cheb]

You may disagree with our beliefs, but the fact is that Jordan and many other countries are becoming more and more like the West rather than like a Muslim country. Since you have a western mentality, then your view about Jordan is different than a Muslims view, or I should say my view. It is all about perspective. I understand yours and I would expect that you understand ours.
To you going to clubs, drinking and being able to dress in revealing clothes (on an Islamic standard) comfortably in a country is what you see as a good thing. However, I see it as the exact opposite.

 

[Lush]

Haha, a t-shirt and jeans are revealing, man, most religious Jordainians don't think that way! Have you been to Jordan? I walked through one of the most conservative districts in Amman, mixing alongside niqaabis and the like, and nobody was offended. There is a strong tradition of live and let live mentality in Jordan, and believe me, it has little to do with the boogeyman of "Westernization."

Furthermore, it may come as a surprise, but plenty of religious people are very comfortable living in Jordan. Nobody is breaking down their door and telling them how to behave. That's what so wonderful about a country like Jordan, people do not simply have the right to force their belief down your throat, and this works both ways.

Religion, when it's forced upon you, is meaningless. Somebody has already brought this up in this thread. And I agree.

 

[Cheb]

Yes a t-shirt and jeans are revealing according to Islam. Laughing at that is like laughing at the Quran (I know you didnt mean it that way) since that is where we get our beliefs from.
You dont seem to understand what I am saying. The fact that all this is happening in a Muslim country, that alcohol is consumed regularly, clubs are opening, etc. means that we are going further and further away from our religion. I do not expect you to change your beliefs, but I do expect you to understand ours. The fact that our beliefs are going down the drain because of “Westernization” does not make me a happy Muslim. No one is "forcing" religion on you, but, you are required to respect our traditions and beliefs if you are in a Muslim country. The fact that Jordanians don’t see it that way means that they are in the wrong and not you. I am not trying to offend them, I am Lebanese and I am not sure if you know but it is much worse there. I just think that as Muslims, we are forgetting about why we are on this earth. More meaningless things are introduced to our community everyday, and we are just watching it happen.

 

[Lush]

Sorry, Cheb, like I said before, a forced religion is a meaningless religion.

 

[Cheb]

The fact that I agree with that statement means that you are not getting my point. Never mind then, that is your opinion.

 

[Lush]

Let me qualify my opinion, so that, perhaps, we can see the difference emerge:

Institutionalized religion is meaningless.

 

[Cheb]

If by institutionalized religion you mean a religion that is forced on its people, that is still not what I am saying. See we cannot force anyone to do anything that will affect themselves only, but we can enforce our Sharia law. There is a difference there. See when alcohol is allowed it creates problems in society as a whole. That is one reason why it is not allowed in Islam. Therefore a country under Sharia law cannot allow alcohol. There are reasons why we have these laws just like there are reasons why your country has their laws. Different countries have different cultures and circumstances. They may be different in the West but they are still laws that should be respected. But if someone is not praying 5 times a day, that is up to him, just as long as he does not affect society as a whole.

 

[Lush]

I think there is a certain level of self-absorption that's going on in this thread.

Imagine if the tables were turned, as they often are.

Imagine you are traveling, for whatever personal or professional reason, to a Siberian town such as Kemerovo, or a village north of Vladimir, or maybe to the Carpathians.

The many diverse communities in this area have a practice; they immediately offer their houseguest a jug of home-made wine, or a double-shot of vodka. It's a symbol of hospitality and friendship. This is tradition, and most people who refuse are considered rude, and an explanation is needed.

Do you, as a practicing Muslim, get into a tizzy over local traditions, or do you politely refuse?

Then, are you at all thrilled when an article in the local paper proceeds to lambast you for your lack of cultural sensitivity?

See, it's all fine and well to criticize a Jordanian hotel that will cater to a secular, or mixed party, such as the Intercontinental does, or it's Ok to criticize a young woman who goes to a Muslim country and doesn't veil, but the second a well-meaning Ukrainian starts insisting that you take a shot of vodka with him or her, or cross yourself when the church bells ring, as most Orthodox people are want to do, and the situation becomes altogether different.

 

[Knut Hamsun]

Cheb,
Why do you, and many muslims I've talked with, need a whole country or society to be 100% likeminded i.e. muslim and Sharia? And if you want this so bad, why don't you move to the country that is currently closest to this, your ideal? Seems logical, no?

 

[Cheb]

I think there is a certain level of self-absorption that's going on in this thread.

Imagine if the tables were turned, as they often are.

Imagine you are traveling, for whatever personal or professional reason, to a Siberian town such as Kemerovo, or a village north of Vladimir, or maybe to the Carpathians.

The many diverse communities in this area have a practice; they immediately offer their houseguest a jug of home-made wine, or a double-shot of vodka. It's a symbol of hospitality and friendship. This is tradition, and most people who refuse are considered rude, and an explanation is needed.

Do you, as a practicing Muslim, get into a tizzy over local traditions, or do you politely refuse?

Then, are you at all thrilled when an article in the local paper proceeds to lambast you for your lack of cultural sensitivity?

See, it's all fine and well to criticize a Jordanian hotel that will cater to a secular, or mixed party, such as the Intercontinental does, or it's Ok to criticize a young woman who goes to a Muslim country and doesn't veil, but the second a well-meaning Ukrainian starts insisting that you take a shot of vodka with him or her, or cross yourself when the church bells ring, as most Orthodox people are want to do, and the situation becomes altogether different.

First of all, you are talking about tradition, I am talking about Law. The law I talk about makes sense, the tradition you talk about is just that, tradition. Furthermore if that was true, I would not go there in the first place. Even if I did, I would not drink the vodka because being rude compared to a major sin is quite different (and I presume it is not against the law?). Honestly you do not know this, but you are being hypocritical. Look at any country in the world, pick a democratic country, are there not laws there that you do not agree with? It is the same for the Sharia Law, there will be things that you do not agree with, but you dont have to, you just have to respect them as long as they do not go against your beliefs. If they do, then you should not be there in the first place. Or you will have no choice but to go against your beliefs. In the end, it is your choice.

 

[Cheb]

Cheb,
Why do you, and many muslims I've talked with, need a whole country or society to be 100% likeminded i.e. muslim and Sharia? And if you want this so bad, why don't you move to the country that is currently closest to this, your ideal? Seems logical, no?

Look at your first question, if that were the case, the world would actually be much better off anyway. That is the point, if we can be in a country that share the same belief, or at least respect each other's beliefs, you would have a country with little if no conflict. That is the ultimate goal.
As for your second question, I would agree with you of course. Unless that person has no choice, or finds it very hard to move then they should go where they will feel closer to God. BUT, that place actually does not really exist. Unfortunately there are no countries at this time that truly follow the Sharia in every way.

 

[Lush]

pick a democratic country, are there not laws there that you do not agree with?

Not ones that directly affect me. And I travel quite a lot.

Furthermore, there is no law in Jordan that states that females ought to wear this or that. And this doesn't automatically mean that Jordan isn't a Muslim country. It's simply a logical continuation of the fact that to different women, modesty means different things. There are people on this board, and otherwise, who believe that modesty = full niqaab, and others that do not. Attempting to impose the same standard on everyone is the first step toward fascism.

The old Slavic laws, and I do not mean the current constitutions, did require travelers to partake, but you wouldn't know that, would you? You "wouldn't go there in the first place." You've no interest in exploring or attempting to understand other people's cultures. As I said, this thread is suffering from serious self-absorption.

Your response to Hasman, however, leads me to believe that we have little to talk about further. Islamo-fascism cannot think in nuance, just like Christian fascism. And I've had enough of both in recent years.