What it would take for me to believe

I dont just follow my whims and desires. I act in the interests of my family and my community. Why would you assume that just because I don't think there is some invisible thing that will punish me I would automatically become self serving?

I don't conclude god does not exist, it is logically impossible to prove an unrestricted negative, I just conclude that I have seen no evidence of something that can only be possible if god exists, and that there is only one god.

If the miracle is not limited to beauty then tell me, what else does it have, because I saw no beauty in it at all but lots of appeals to believe without proof and threats of eternal torture for those who do not.
 
TheRationalizer said:
I dont just follow my whims and desires. I act in the interests of my family and my community. Why would you assume that just because I don't think there is some invisible thing that will punish me I would automatically become self serving?

I don't conclude god does not exist, it is logically impossible to prove an unrestricted negative, I just conclude that I have seen no evidence of something that can only be possible if god exists, and that there is only one god.

If the miracle is not limited to beauty then tell me, what else does it have, because I saw no beauty in it at all but lots of appeals to believe without proof and threats of eternal torture for those who do not.
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Why not try looking at belief in god with a different approach? Instead of looking for just scientific evidence and logic, why not give it a spiritual approach?

Look inside yourself sincerely with an open heart, assess yourself and see if you feel fulfilled in life. See if theres that something thats lacking, that no proof or evidence could completely fulfill. You don't have to tell us about it - cause we can't be sure if you're being honest, but do give it a go.

You said 'I don't conclude god does not exist', then why not believe in a god for a day or week etc, why not give it a go? Ask Him to guide to you to the truth - not islam, christianity or any other religion just the truth. Ask Him to help you find answers to your queries. Ask Him sincerely and see what happens for yourself instead of relying on us.

What can you lose by doing this?
 
TheRationalizer said:
I just conclude that I have seen no evidence of something that can only be possible if god exists, and that there is only one god.
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Stop looking with your eyes and look with your heart. Its not about seeing God or some sign of God its about believing that there is a God.
Since there are people who are "see it to believe it" types, Messengers of God and the Quran were sent to mankind as signs.
You just choose to not accept it bc the "evidence of a consciousness" that was sent to you does not suit your liking.
We can seat here and try to explain this to you all day but your heart is just not open inshallah it will be one day when you have your "aha moment".
If not then when you die you will be able to see (with your eyes ) what you seek and by then it will be too late.
 
TheRationalizer said:
Hmm, I am surprised. The reason is that this is something easily achievable by humans. Just get loads of Quran's printed and ship them off to very poor + mostly illiterate places in the world, pay some people to teach the modified versions. After a few decades you'd end up with quite a few people following a modified Quran. That's why it wouldn't be enough for *me*, because the effects are man-made.

I've not shifted my position once, what do you mean?
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Asalaamu Alaikum,

Go see the date of when the Oldest available Quran exists and see what part of it has easily been "changed today".

Regarding the strength of belief -

‘Ali ibn Abi Talib, among others, would say: “If the veil of the Unseen were lifted up, my certainty would not increase.”
 
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I have done that. I was a deist for years, I spent months meditating, talking to god, asking for guidance. I was praying more than 10 times a day every day, sometimes for over an hour.

Would you like to know what god told me? That ALL religion is wrong, including Islam. He told me that I was his messenger and that I had a message to deliver to the whole world - anonymously so that people would only know the message and not the messenger.

In short...it didn't work. I am better now.

The problem with the "ask for guidance" approach is that so many people get so many different and conflicting answers. It is therefore either purely subjective.
 
TheRationalizer said:
I have done that. I was a deist for years, I spent months meditating, talking to god, asking for guidance. I was praying more than 10 times a day every day, sometimes for over an hour.

Would you like to know what god told me? That ALL religion is wrong, including Islam. He told me that I was his messenger and that I had a message to deliver to the whole world - anonymously so that people would only know the message and not the messenger.

In short...it didn't work. I am better now.

The problem with the "ask for guidance" approach is that so many people get so many different and conflicting answers. It is therefore either purely subjective.
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Well if this answer of yours is the sincere truth, you can try telling that to god on the day of judgement, He will judge you justly - so you may not have much to worry about if incase islam turns out to be the truth.

What do you think?
 
TheRationalizer said:
I have done that. I was a deist for years, I spent months meditating, talking to god, asking for guidance. I was praying more than 10 times a day every day, sometimes for over an hour.

Would you like to know what god told me? That ALL religion is wrong, including Islam. He told me that I was his messenger and that I had a message to deliver to the whole world - anonymously so that people would only know the message and not the messenger.

In short...it didn't work. I am better now.

The problem with the "ask for guidance" approach is that so many people get so many different and conflicting answers. It is therefore either purely subjective.
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Asalaamu Alaikum,

Lol, you really need to read a book on Muhammad(pbuh).. I mean (lets take the miraculous Quran out the picture for a second and concentrate on the source), this is the view of pretty much every (non-Muslim) historian today;

"Only a profound belief in himself and his mission explains Muhammad's readiness to endure hardship and persecution during the Meccan period when from a secular point of view there was no prospect of success. Without sincerity how could he have won the allegiance and even devotion of men of strong and upright character like Abu-Bakr and 'Umar ? ... There is thus a strong case for holding that Muhammad was sincere. If in some respects he was mistaken, his mistakes were not due to deliberate lying or imposture[87] ....the important point is that the message was not the product of Muhammad's conscious mind. He believed that he could easily distinguish between his own thinking and these revelations. His sincerity in this belief must be accepted by the modern historian, for this alone makes credible the development of a great religion. The further question, however, whether the messages came from Muhammad's unconscious, or the collective unconscious functioning in him, or from some divine source, is beyond the competence of the historian." William Montgomery Watt

I requote - "His sincerity in this belief must be accepted by the modern historian, for this alone makes credible the development of a great religion."

and - "The further question, however, whether the messages came from Muhammad's unconscious, or the collective unconscious functioning in him, or from some divine source, is beyond the competence of the historian"

Another;

"The modern historian will not readily believe that so great and significant a movement was started by a self-seeking impostor. Nor will he be satisfied with a purely supernatural explanation, whether it postulates aid of divine of diabolical origin; rather, like Gibbon, will he seek 'with becoming submission, to ask not indeed what were the first, but what were the secondary causes of the rapid growth' of the new faith" Bernard Lewis

I requote - "The modern historian will not readily believe that so great and significant a movement was started by a self-seeking impostor."

Another;

"the really powerful factor in Muhammad’s life and the essential clue to his extraordinary success was his unshakable belief from beginning to end that he had been called by God. A conviction such as this, which, once firmly established, does not admit of the slightest doubt, exercises an incalculable influence on others. The certainty with which he came forward as the executor of God’s will gave his words and ordinances an authority that proved finally compelling." Welch

So here we have the opinion of what most Historians (or any Intellect for that matter) would say. They won't say he was an imposter, just doesn't add up at all. They won't say he was "insane" either, due to the fact that a revolution (undisputed to be the biggest in history) as such couldn't have happened in a span of 23 years by a insane man. Arabia was (as far as any standards goes) below most of what other civilizations were at. They used to bury their babies if it was a female, they used to take decisions on "chance", depending on what the arrow says. This was all completly changed around in such a big way, to the point where not only the country rulership changed, not only did the way people act change but it went all the way to the point on how people would think and what they would believe in and after the Prophets(pbuh) death, Islam spread extremely fast and the civilization continued to uprise and as we know, surpass that of any civilization of that time.

So for such reasons, the Historians or anyone that's non-Muslim unbias would have to say; "The further question, however, whether the messages came from Muhammad's unconscious, or the collective unconscious functioning in him, or from some divine source, is beyond the competence of the historian."

What's interesting is the "uncouncious" part, that must be quite something for someone to have thoughts they themselves have no control over (you know, like a dream) to keep remembering these thoughts for a period of 23 years; in which these (uncontrollable) thoughts would suddenly become (at the time) and today as regarded by all Arabs (including the non-Muslim one's) as the highest piece of Arabic literature around.

Now you may want to disgree with those intellects, but you really would have to question if there's any sense of denial here. I suppose everyone has their own opinion and their not obliged to believe others. Though, facts are pretty much there for anyone to ponder deeply over.

In an Authentic Hadith - His Companion Umar came to his house and looked in his room, and saw nothing but a hay mat which the Prophet was sitting on, which had left marks on his body. The only provisions in the house were half a Saa’6 of barley in a container, and a water skin that hung on the wall - this is all the Messenger of God owned at a time when half the Arabs were under his control. When Umar saw this, he could not control himself and wept. The Messenger of God () said: ‚Why are you weeping O Umar?‛ He replied: ‚Why shouldn’t I weep - Khosrau and Caesar enjoy themselves in this world and the Messenger of God () only owns what I see!‛ He responded: ‚O Umar, wouldn’t it please you that this is the share of Khosrau and Caesar in this life, and in the Hereafter this pleasure would be for us alone?‛

Anyways, regardless of any belief anyone has, I would like to recommend you read the book on Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) called "The Sealed Nectar". It's regarded as the most accurate and the author is very honest in it.

After reading this (if you do) you can judge for yourself whether you think he was an imposter, insane, had divine guidance OR what the other non-Muslim intellects say (until some of them revert) which is; I just dont know.

Download Link
 
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You must understand , the reason that Islam present for us being here is that we are being tested to see which can be righteous or in more better words, maintain the real human nature, only then can you understand Islam.

So in order words, there is a requirement and only when you have this requirement then God guides you.

Hazrat Abu Bakr (RA) was a good man and he accepted Islam without any evidence because it was his sincerity and God's Will that guided him.

while

The Pharaoh was a rebellious and arrogant person and he wouldn't admit the miracles to be real and not magic so God left him in the darkness and drowned him.

If God really wanted man to come to Islam, He could have made us all do so but the test is to be righteous and rest is up to God.
 
All sound minded people who aren't led astray by you and the like will understand that knowing the message without the messenger is a miracle and that the moon splitting and only being visible to some people is a miracle. But the definition of miracle is too technical for you. It maybe that soon after your fantasy of being a messenger was over because you found yourself facing reality for a split second, and so it didn't work. Its very clear that due to your evilness you want flee from the reality. Whats also clear is that your quest to deceive people because you want them to experience what your experiencing(misery) cos you can't get yourself out, because of your unconditional love with this world isn't also working.

My Muslim Brothers and Sisters, what we should be doing is reassuring the Muslims if this disbeliever has caused the faith any harm and presenting the deserving good non-muslims who really want to know the truth with the truth. You can't guide him, it is Allah who guides.

WARNING AND REMINDER:To Muslims,
What you are witnessing here is Allah staying to true to his words “Allah hath set a seal on their hearts and on their hearing, and on their eyes is a veil; great is the penalty they (incur)” [Chapter2 Verse 7-Holy Quran]. So be firm in your belief and never deviate. He is just trying to pull the wool over our eyes

You can never guide him only Allah guides "Verily, you (O Muhammad) guide not whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He knows best those who are the guided." [Chapter 28 56].
Read the entire thread
NON ACCEPTANCE AND ACCEPTANCE OF NON EXISTENCE!
 
Okay, the jist of what I read is this

1: Tell Allah on judgement day.

How do you know you won't be telling some other god? I think the statistics prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that "praying to god with an open heart and an open mind" does not work. There are plenty of people who do this and get no answer at all, and also a lot of people who are told "Jesus is god" - why would god tell them that?


2: Muhammad was a nice bloke, and didn't believe he was making it up

That doesn't prove that the Quran is from god any more than the nice bloke who genuinely thinks he is Napoleon proves reincarnation.


3: "If God really wanted man to come to Islam, He could have made us all do so but the test is to be righteous and rest is up to God."

So this means I don't have to believe in Allah I just have to do good deeds? So what's the point of praying 5 times a day? What's the point in believing in 1 god? If a pagan believes in "mother Earth" etc but other than that they do everything right are they a bad person? Allah chose not to guide them after all didn't it?

Why would Allah chose to guide some people and not others, and then punish the non-believers with eternity in fire - the most unjust punishment imaginable?


4: "The Moon splitting only seen by some people is a miracle"

A astronomical event which should have been visible by around 50% of the planet was only seen by a handful of people, you actually think that is credible? If 50% of the Earth's population saw it then it would be a miracle, if the vision only occurs to a few people then that is a trick - because the Moon didn't really split, the people involved just thought they saw it and when using a trick you cannot trick the entire planet.

Personally I think this is more likely to have been a solar eclipse, and there was a solar eclipse during his life - most likely before this relevant chapter in the Quran. This verse could simply mean that the Moon split apart "from the Sun". Muhammad seemed to think that solar eclipses were a sign of the day of judgement (according to Hadith) and the Quran does explain how on the day of judgement the Moon will crash into the Sun (which is what a solar eclipse looks like.)

I really can't believe people still claim Muhammad split the Moon in half, really I cannot.
 
My Muslim Brothers and Sisters. Assalaamu Alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu.

Don't believe anything from this Athiest. Are you going to believe this self-destructive hell deserving person. Hell is made especially for him and those same as him.

Let this be the reason you look into the verses in the Holy Qur'an and the hadith and study them in-depth and realise what is happening to this person. Study this if you haven't so far. Through choosing not to believe and disobeying, after given lots of time to do so one acquires a state that no longer allows one to believe. This person didn't believe in the first instance.I haven't come across this persons situation before, it's the first time i've discussed with an Atheist. This just makes me wanna know more about Islam. i haven't done much dawah. I'm studying this at the moment, you guys study what you can, then we'll discuss his situation amongst ourselves... Seek knowledge! We can help each other we are open to receive God's guidance. This person cannot be helped. What i'm reading matches this persons situation.
Ignore what this person is saying. This person is being punished by Allah. STUDY! DON'T DO THE SAME AS HIM.
 
TheRationalizer said:
Okay, the jist of what I read is this

1: Tell Allah on judgement day.

How do you know you won't be telling some other god? I think the statistics prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that "praying to god with an open heart and an open mind" does not work. There are plenty of people who do this and get no answer at all, and also a lot of people who are told "Jesus is god" - why would god tell them that?
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Alright, The Creator will be on the Judgment day, happy?

2: Muhammad was a nice bloke, and didn't believe he was making it up

That doesn't prove that the Quran is from god any more than the nice bloke who genuinely thinks he is Napoleon proves reincarnation.
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Well he is labeled as the best character in human history but nonetheless the prophecy of a prophet like Moses (PBUH) points to Muhammad (PBUH) because he was born of normal parents, brought a new law, was a ruler, died a natural death . So now we just need to prove that this prophecy is from God.....(ok I screwed up there). At least Muhammad (PBUH) lived up to being a figure who you may follow, an example.

3: "If God really wanted man to come to Islam, He could have made us all do so but the test is to be righteous and rest is up to God."

So this means I don't have to believe in Allah I just have to do good deeds? So what's the point of praying 5 times a day? What's the point in believing in 1 god? If a pagan believes in "mother Earth" etc but other than that they do everything right are they a bad person? Allah chose not to guide them after all didn't it?

Why would Allah chose to guide some people and not others, and then punish the non-believers with eternity in fire - the most unjust punishment imaginable?
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Yes, Allah guides whoever He likes and then He describes the people He likes and He says that its His responsibility to guide such people.

Allah gives us detail in the Quran, e.g in one place


2:2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.
3. Who believe in the Unseen, are steadfast in prayer, and spend out of what We have provided for them;
4. And who believe in the Revelation sent to thee, and sent before thy time, and (in their hearts) have the assurance of the Hereafter.
5. They are on (true) guidance, from their Lord, and it is these who will prosper.
 
ForTheTruth, let me point out the errors in your offensive post for you.

forthetruth said:
Are you going to believe this self-destructive hell deserving person. Hell is made especially for him and those same as him.
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Nobody deserves hell. The very idea that any "crime" committed within a finite life time can warrant an eternal punishment is disgusting. It's the eternity that makes it unfair. What crime deserves punishment that lasts 1 billion years? What about 10 billion years or 100 billion years? Now take into account that 100 billion years (which you cannot even imagine) is not even 50% of the punishment, nor 1% of the punishment. In fact 100 billion years is not even a 100 billionth of a percent of the punishment.

Eternity is forever. There is no more unjust a punishment than one that lasts for eternity. To believe that someone actually deserves to be burned alive is disgusting, to believe that someone believes to be burned past their life and for eternity into their death is hideous. How can you possibly believe that god is a god of love if it would create such a place and then send people there?

forthetruth said:
Through choosing not to believe and disobeying
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I think you didn't read my short life story.

I was a deist for probably all of my life, talking to god on a daily basis and constantly worrying what god would think not only of my actions but also my every thought. At the age of about 32 I started to look at Islam. I prayed 10 or more times a day, I called god "Allah", I prostrated when I prayed, I faced Mecca when I did so, I didn't drink/smoke, I grew my beard, I gave more than 5% to charity, I was learning Arabic so I could read the Quran.

I used to not only ask Allah to guide me, but BEG him to guide me. Could you please explain exactly how this could possibly be interpreted as "choosing not to believe"?


forthetruth said:
after given lots of time to do so one acquires a state that no longer allows one to believe.
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Over 30 years of believing in god, then over a year of living a life more like a Muslim than 90% of the Muslims I know? I have only been an atheist now for 13 months. I think your statement is somewhat incorrect.


forthetruth said:
This person didn't believe in the first instance
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As I have pointed out you could not be more wrong.

forthetruth said:
This just makes me wanna know more about Islam.
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Good for you, I am not attempting to convince you not to look into your religion.

forthetruth said:
This person cannot be helped.
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And why is it that I deserve not to be helped by Allah, but the father of my Muslim school friend who used to beat his wife and burn my friend with a hot poker from the fire DOES?

He believed in Allah and Muhammad, yet he physically abused his family. Then there is me who believed in god since I was a child, living my life as a Muslim for over a year, and begging Allah to guide me and what do I get? Other than the delusion that I am god's messenger....nothing.

Does Allah not guide those who genuinely seek guidance? Is Allah not the most just? I see no justice here, just different people asking for guidance and their minds coming up with answers that make the most sense to them.

forthetruth said:
This person is being punished by Allah.
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Punished for what exactly?
Not wanting god? No, I believed for over 3 decades.
Not wanting Muhammad to be god's messenger? No, I wanted it a lot.
Associating gods with Allah? Never occured to me.
Eating pork? No, not for over 14 years now.
Smoking? Never.
Drinking? I hadn't touched alcohol for years.
Having sex with women other than my wife? No.
Having sex with men or animals? No.
Stealing? No.
Not giving 2.5% of my income to charity? No, I give more like 5%.
Beating my wife and children? No.
I rarely eat meat. When I do it's chicken, and even that I STILL buy from a fast food place which is Halal.

I'm running out of ideas now, perhaps you can help me? Tell me what I am doing wrong in my life that makes me deserve Allah's punishment that you do not see in the behaviour of Muslims that you know. Please, do tell me!


forthetruth said:
STUDY! DON'T DO THE SAME AS HIM.
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Which is what? What is it that I am doing that these people should avoid? They really need to know because they don't want the unjust eternal punishment of fire do they? I'm sure everyone will be interested to know what I did wrong for 36 years of my life which ended up in Allah choosing to answer "All religion is false, I have a new message for you". We need to know, because I certainly don't.

And yes, I too implore people to study. Study your religion, study other religions, study psychological behaviours, study science, study evolution, STUDY!

But most of all remember this. The truth can withstand scrutiny, only a lie demands you believe it on trust.
 
Be righteous and Allah will guide you. Thats it.
And even He doesn't guide you, He'll just judge you based on your deeds but the main point is that you will be judged. Thats all.

e.g you don't need Islam to tell you that lying,stealing,killing are bad , you know this because Allah has given you the knowledge . You will get guidance when you properly use it then Allah teaches why you shouldn't steal,kill or lie and gives you a strong reason why you should continue living your righteous life and not a sinful one through Islam.
 
Saad17 said:
Be righteous and Allah will guide you. Thats it.
And even He doesn't guide you, He'll just judge you based on your deeds but the main point is that you will be judged. Thats all.

e.g you don't need Islam to tell you that lying,stealing,killing are bad , you know this because Allah has given you the knowledge . You will get guidance when you properly use it then Allah teaches why you shouldn't steal,kill or lie and gives you a strong reason why you should continue living your righteous life and not a sinful one through Islam.
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So, Allah guides whom it wills, and leaves those astray whom it wills. After all the efforts I went through why would I deserve not only to be left astray but actually led astry (told "All religion is false including Islam")? It's not what I wanted to hear, and all of my efforts were genuinely to be in touch with god and for no other reason.

The point is. Not only was I NOT guided, I was expressly misguided. I was told that there is NO religion of god on Earth. So what's that all about? Does that not prove that "praying to god with an open heart and an open mind" is completely subjective seeing as so many people get different and conflicting "guidance"?

What makes you more special than me that you deserve guidance and I do not? Were we not born equal? I certainly think we were.
 
TheRationalizer said:
So, Allah guides whom it wills, and leaves those astray whom it wills. After all the efforts I went through why would I deserve not only to be left astray but actually led astry (told "All religion is false including Islam")? It's not what I wanted to hear, and all of my efforts were genuinely to be in touch with god and for no other reason.

The point is. Not only was I NOT guided, I was expressly misguided. I was told that there is NO religion of god on Earth. So what's that all about? Does that not prove that "praying to god with an open heart and an open mind" is completely subjective seeing as so many people get different and conflicting "guidance"?

What makes you more special than me that you deserve guidance and I do not? Were we not born equal? I certainly think we were.
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I told you that Allah tells us what kind of people He likes to let go astray and what kind of people He likes to guide .

Second of all the difference between you and me is that you believe that God can answer you directly. I sometimes think that Allah might not chose me for something, like I'm so Al-Mehdi or whatever but the point is simple. Allah talks through revelations . So yes as a Muslim I don't believe that I have direct communication to God otherwise I would be doing crazy things and justifying them through God.

"It is not fitting for a man that God should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by sending of a messenger to reveal with God's permission what God wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise " 42:51

Only exception was Moses (PBUH).
​
 
Saad17 said:
the difference between you and me is that you believe that God can answer you directly.
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I believe(d) god can do absolutely anything. I didn't require him to send me a note in writing, I *begged* that if he has a religion that he guided me to it. Either he chose to tell me that all religion is man made, or my own brain created it and I mistook it for guidance from Allah. So if it is impossible to tell the difference between what Allah guides and what your own brain makes up then what's the point of "praying with an open mind and an open heart"? There is plenty of statistical evidence to show that this is a massively ineffective way of determining the truth of the matter.


Saad17 said:
I told you that Allah tells us what kind of people He likes to let go astray and what kind of people He likes to guide .
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If I am not mistaken Shirk is the ONLY sin that Allah will never forgive, am I correct? So Allah chooses to send polytheists astray and then because it is an unforgivable sin they are then punished in hell fire for all eternity?

Does that sound even *slightly* just to you?
 
TheRationalizer said:
I believe(d) god can do absolutely anything. I didn't require him to send me a note in writing, I *begged* that if he has a religion that he guided me to it. Either he chose to tell me that all religion is man made, or my own brain created it and I mistook it for guidance from Allah. So if it is impossible to tell the difference between what Allah guides and what your own brain makes up then what's the point of "praying with an open mind and an open heart"? There is plenty of statistical evidence to show that this is a massively ineffective way of determining the truth of the matter.




If I am not mistaken Shirk is the ONLY sin that Allah will never forgive, am I correct? So Allah chooses to send polytheists astray and then because it is an unforgivable sin they are then punished in hell fire for all eternity?

Does that sound even *slightly* just to you?
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what do you mean by shirk?
a practical definition.
 

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