What was the nature of Jesus' (alayhi salam) birth?

[MustafaMc]

When I was a Christian, I prayed to the Father and ended 'in the name of Jesus'. When I partook of the weekly communion I had Jesus in mind and the sacrifice he made on the cross. As a Muslim I can see a distinction between the Father and Jesus that I had unconciously glossed over as a Christian. The line between the two used to be blurry, but now it is clear. As an analogy, I am extremely nearsighted (-7.50) and the difference between having my glasses on and taking them off is like how I can now see clearly that the Father is distinct from Jesus when before my vision was blurry and I couldn't tell them apart.

 

[Burninglight]

When I was a Christian, I prayed to the Father and ended 'in the name of Jesus'. When I partook of the weekly communion I had Jesus in mind and the sacrifice he made on the cross. As a Muslim I can see a distinction between the Father and Jesus that I had unconciously glossed over as a Christian. The line between the two used to be blurry, but now it is clear. As an analogy, I am extremely nearsighted (-7.50) and the difference between having my glasses on and taking them off is like how I can now see clearly that the Father is distinct from Jesus when before my vision was blurry and I couldn't tell them apart.

I see. Yes, I go through that I am praying to Jesus and then I say in Jesus name and it seems ackward to me because I forget to say father. There is a clear distinction to me but then there isn't. That's why I don't like discussing the trinity I don't understand it even though I have been a Christian for a long time now. But I can't forsake something, because I don't understand it.

 

[MustafaMc]

I see. Yes, I go through that I am praying to Jesus and then I say in Jesus name and it seems ackward to me because I forget to say father. There is a clear distinction to me but then there isn't. That's why I don't like discussing the trinity I don't understand it even though I have been a Christian for a long time now. But I can't forsake something, because I don't understand it.

I would have to say that is one of the most honest statements I have seen. I am glad you were able to see what I was getting at. After becoming a Muslim I have noticed that Christians sometimes start off praying to the Father and then interject a line or two addressed to Jesus and then finish off 'in the name of Your son, Jesus'.

 

[Burninglight]

I would have to say that is one of the most honest statements I have seen. I am glad you were able to see what I was getting at. After becoming a Muslim I have noticed that Christians sometimes start off praying to the Father and then interject a line or two addressed to Jesus and then finish off 'in the name of Your son, Jesus'.

thank you, but i don't see how God gets any glory out of me saying this. really whatever I do I want all of it to be for God's glory. I know I fall short, but I said or answered this because you directly asked me the question. I tried to avoid it. Phillip, Jesus' disciple had a problem with who the father was too. He asked Jesus: "Show us the father and we'll be satisfied" Jesus responded, "How long have you been with me, and you still don't know me Philip? he that has seen me has seen the father" There are many things like this verse that Jesus said that allude to His deity as far as I can tell. I would never consider the idea that this is a corruption of Scripture such as many others that allude to His deity. If I go to hell because I believe His words, if the Bible is corrupted, oh well to hell I go believing Jesus is the answer and confessing His name as I go down the pit. Islam doesn't resonate for me the way it has for you.

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

I see. Yes, I go through that I am praying to Jesus and then I say in Jesus name and it seems ackward to me because I forget to say father. There is a clear distinction to me but then there isn't. That's why I don't like discussing the trinity I don't understand it even though I have been a Christian for a long time now. But I can't forsake something, because I don't understand it.

If the father and Jesus are one like you keep claiming then why do you pray to 2 different entities in your supplication?

You said it yourself trinity is NO where to be found in the scriptures then why must you believe it? Most of your paganistic beliefs come from the Gospels which as we have discussed were written by unknown men at an unknown time in history.

For anyone to disregard the teachings of God and Jesus and accept concepts from the gospels which were never taught by God or Jesus is pure foolishness. That is like presenting unfounded unreliable and dodgy evidence in court to try and prove ones case. The judge would just laugh and throw such "evidence" away.

 

[Burninglight]

If the father and Jesus are one like you keep claiming then why do you pray to 2 different entities in your supplication?

I don't know how to answer this to your satisfaction. Maybe that is because I don't fully understand it but just accept it because I trust Jesus

You said it yourself trinity is NO where to be found in the scriptures then why must you believe it? Most of your paganistic beliefs come from the Gospels which as we have discussed were written by unknown men at an unknown time in history.

I said the term trinity is no where to be found I said nothing of the concept. These unknow men is who I believe God chose.

For anyone to disregard the teachings of God and Jesus and accept concepts from the gospels which were never taught by God or Jesus is pure foolishness. That is like presenting unfounded unreliable and dodgy evidence in court to try and prove ones case. The judge would just laugh and throw such "evidence" away.

Maybe a judge would throw it away as you say, but not if that Judge is God!

 

[Burninglight]

Jesus said, "Cast not your pearls before swine." What do you think he meant by that?
:statisfie

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

I don't know how to answer this to your satisfaction. Maybe that is because I don't fully understand it but just accept it because I trust Jesus

You trust Jesus but what about God? You trust the word of God more than God? You going to leave the holy spirit out to?

I said the term trinity is no where to be found I said nothing of the concept. These unknow men is who I believe God chose.

Where did God state that he chose random unknown people to be able to create concepts and beliefs which go against the very beliefs and teachings of God and EVERY single Prophet?

Maybe a judge would throw it away as you say, but not if that Judge is God!

God knows very well that such concepts are totally against the very message he had sent every single Prophet to propogate to theirpeople including Christ who clearly said:

"Hear, O Israel: The LORD our God, the LORD is one. (From the NIV Bible, Deuteronomy 6:4)"

I repeat again NO WHERE did God or Jesus state that God manifested himself as his word or the holy spirit.

Why, for thousands of years, did none of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity? At the least, would Jesus not use his ability as the Great Teacher to make the Trinity clear to his followers? Would God inspire hundreds of pages of Scripture and yet not use any of this instruction to teach the Trinity if it were the "central doctrine" of faith?

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

These unknown men is who I believe God chose.

It is clear you have not even looked up the history of your religion. The gospels which were written by unknown men at an unknown time were compiled into the Bible by an alegedly "Inspired" Theologian called Eusebius.

Who was this man that determined the basis for almost all the beliefs of a religion, which is accepted by over 2 billion people under the control of churches claiming the title, Christian? No single person had more influence over those beliefs than the original editor of the "Bible" and the first theologian, who determined the doctrines of the first Universal / Catholic Church, from which come, most of the beliefs of the Protestant Church. There is no dispute that Eusebius was completed dedicated to the divine authority and reform agenda of the Emperor Constantine, and that he was trusted to shape that agenda into a religion by Constantine. It is most curious that there was never any pronouncement by any central authority, such as the Pope, in all of Christian history concerning, which books belonged in the Bible, until 1443 AD at the conclusion of the Council of Florence.

As a church historian, Eusebius receives very low marks and has even been characterized by the noted Swiss historian, Jacob Burckhardt, as "the first thoroughly dishonest historian of antiquity". Eusebius openly displays his lack of integrity in his Ecclesiastical History by stating "We shall introduce into this history in general only those events which may be useful first to ourselves and afterwards to posterity."

As a theologian he directly affirmed his total disregard for honesty, in his Evangelical Preparation, by declaring "How it may be lawful and fitting to use falsehood as a medicine, and for the benefit of those who want to be deceived.", as well as "it is necessary sometimes to use falsehood as a medicine for those who need such an approach", and "falsehood is something even more useful". Here we have the very first theologian clearly stating that it was proper to use deception to achieve an end. To put in different terms; the ends justify the means, no matter how deceptive those means are.

This man, who has sole authority over what is doctrine in the Christian religion, and, who lacks moral integrity, decided that, at least, 33% of all the commonly accepted books considered to be "New Testament" by the earlier church, should be purged.

Read more about him here: http://www.bibleufo.com/anomchurch8.htm

 

[Hamza Asadullah]

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
(Psalms 82:6)

hmm so it is not just jesus who is God according to Christianity but we are all Gods.

 

[MustafaMc]

thank you, but i don't see how God gets any glory out of me saying this. really whatever I do I want all of it to be for God's glory. I know I fall short, but I said or answered this because you directly asked me the question. I tried to avoid it.

I appreciate your answer. I was not trying to trap or confuse you, but rather get you to see what I see is the Truth which I believe you do. Our personal views and beliefs about God are yet quite different, but that of course does not change the Reality of the One God. Our limited understanding and our mutual striving to understand Who is the One we worship illustrates our human limitations, as the Quran quotes Jesus as saying in 5:116 You know what is in my mind, and I know not what is in Your mind. Lo! You, only You, art the knower of Things Hidden?

Phillip, Jesus' disciple had a problem with who the father was too. He asked Jesus: "Show us the father and we'll be satisfied" Jesus responded, "How long have you been with me, and you still don't know me Philip? he that has seen me has seen the father" There are many things like this verse that Jesus said that allude to His deity as far as I can tell. I would never consider the idea that this is a corruption of Scripture such as many others that allude to His deity. If I go to hell because I believe His words, if the Bible is corrupted, oh well to hell I go believing Jesus is the answer and confessing His name as I go down the pit. Islam doesn't resonate for me the way it has for you.

Your reply illustrates our freedom to choose and to be true to what we individually hold is the Truth, but it is clear that we can't both be correct. We each have to decide whether we believe either the Bible or the Quran is the revealed word of the One God which hinges on whether we decide to accept Paul and the unkown authors of the 4 gospels or Muhammad (saaws) as Messenger(s) whose mission was to convey a Divine Message from the One God.

I will have to admit that I do not fully grasp the nature of Jesus as having been born to a virgin and having ascended to Heaven to return near the Last Day, but I believe that the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam and that it is not that of Allah. I can relate to you having made your choice as so do I in adhering to mine of, 'I bear witness that there is no deity except Allah and that Muhammad was His servant and messenger.' That is the choice I made in June 2001 and Allah (swt) has willed that I have been true to that decision since then. I hope and pray that I die not but with that testimony on my lips and in my heart.

 

[MustafaMc]

"I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High."
(Psalms 82:6)

hmm so it is not just jesus who is God according to Christianity but we are all Gods.

Assalamu alaikum, this verse came to my mind John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” hmm "Jesus' Father and his disciple's Father, his God and their God". Does this verse not distinguish Jesus from God and put Jesus on equal footing with his brothers, his disciples in relation to God? For those who have eyes let them be opened so they can see.

 

[MustafaMc]

Jesus said, "Cast not your pearls before swine." What do you think he meant by that?
:statisfie

Matthew 7:6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. I believe that this is in reference to preaching the message that Jesus brought to the Gentiles as Jesus is quoted as having said in Matthew 15:22-27, And a Canaanite (Gentile) woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs (Gentiles).” But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Now who deviated from this and took the 'gospel' to the Gentiles like me and you? Note that the message that Jesus taught has largely been lost to antiquity and has been red-herringly replaced by the 'plan of salvation'. In other words, the Injeel revealed to Jesus has been trampled under the feet of the Gentiles.

 

[Burninglight]

I will have to admit that I do not fully grasp the nature of Jesus as having been born to a virgin and having ascended to Heaven to return near the Last Day, but I believe that the likeness of Jesus is that of Adam and that it is not that of Allah. I can relate to you having made your choice as so do I in adhering to mine of, 'I bear witness that there is no deity except Allah and that Muhammad was His servant and messenger.' That is the choice I made in June 2001 and Allah (swt) has willed that I have been true to that decision since then. I hope and pray that I die not but with that testimony on my lips and in my heart.

God said let us make man in our image so it is not hard for me to relate to God as a person.

Assalamu alaikum, this verse came to my mind John 20:17 Jesus said to her, “Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to My brethren and say to them, ‘I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God.’” hmm "Jesus' Father and his disciple's Father, his God and their God". Does this verse not distinguish Jesus from God and put Jesus on equal footing with his brothers, his disciples in relation to God? For those who have eyes let them be opened so they can see.

You can't just take one thing Jesus said a build a doctrine around it. Jesus is distinguished from His father in this verse and through the Bible; however, He is also the distinguished son of God who Stephen saw sitting at the right hand of God as Saul (Paul) was consenting to his death (the first Christian Martyr). I receive Paul's message about Jesus. He was an enemy of the cross and now a champinon and a model. May I die with the testimony of Jesus crucified & risen on my lips!

 

[Burninglight]

Matthew 7:6 Do not give what is holy to dogs, and do not throw your pearls before swine, or they will trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you to pieces. I believe that this is in reference to preaching the message that Jesus brought to the Gentiles as Jesus is quoted as having said in Matthew 15:22-27, And a Canaanite (Gentile) woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs (Gentiles).” But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” Now who deviated from this and took the 'gospel' to the Gentiles like me and you? Note that the message that Jesus taught has largely been lost to antiquity and has been red-herringly replaced by the 'plan of salvation'. In other words, the Injeel revealed to Jesus has been trampled under the feet of the Gentiles.

I guess you can look at it that way, but I don't believe that is the context Jesus meant it in. He is refering to sharing the truth of God and deep testimony of God working in your life with those who don't appreciate it; it could be atheists or people of other religions that disparage the truth, and after they do that they come after you personally sought of like they did to Stephen and all that suffered persecution for Christ.

Some people are a waste of time. Once they have heard the truth and still reject it, we should NOT continue to give them the holy and sacred things of God. These reprobates are the true dogs and swine before the Lord. The woman was not a dog to Jesus. He was speaking rhetorically and testing her faith, and she proved that by faith she recieved from God through Jesus what she wanted. She wasn't going to attack Jesus after she got what she wanted, and Jesus wouldn't tell us to do something only to turn around and do it Himself. You have a zeal but not according to knowledge my friend. You are mistaken about this and even more serious things about Scripture in the Bible. Christians belief that Jesus has the monopoly on all that is called God. Speaking of Monopoly, He is still giving out those "Get out of hell free" cards

 

[Burninglight]

In other words, the Injeel revealed to Jesus has been trampled under the feet of the Gentiles.

I don't believe that happened. God said His word is established forever in heaven. Ps 19. I don't believe man as I have mentioned many times on this forum, that man's power to corrupt is greater than God's power to preserve. No prophet should contradict what had already been given to us by God. Every prophet should be unequivocally confirmed by other prophets or Scripture. Or they should have preformed a miracle or given a prophecy that doesn't fail. He should know God's name and he should be born of the correct bloodline that God had set in place.

 

[MustafaMc]

God said let us make man in our image so it is not hard for me to relate to God as a person.

This concept is not consistent with the Islamic teaching that Allah (swt) does not resemble and is not comparable to anything in His creation. This would put limits on Allah's (swt) Divine Nature. This is a big difference between Judaism/Christianity and Islam as in the renaming of Jacob to Israel per Genesis 32:28 He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” It is inconceivable to a Muslim for God to appear as a man, wrestle with another man and to loose the wrestling match (astaghfir'Allah). It is also inconcievable that Allah (swt) could be born of a woman and die on a cross.

He (Jesus) is also the distinguished son of God who Stephen saw sitting at the right hand of God

And how is this consistent with the concept of Divine Unity and Oneness of God? Jesus is God incarnate (according to Christian doctrine), but he yet sits at the right hand of God.^o)

 

[Burninglight]

This concept is not consistent with the Islamic teaching that Allah (swt) does not resemble and is not comparable to anything in His creation. This would put limits on Allah's (swt) Divine Nature. This is a big difference between Judaism/Christianity and Islam as in the renaming of Jacob to Israel per Genesis 32:28 He said, “Your name shall no longer be Jacob, but Israel; for you have striven with God and with men and have prevailed.” It is inconceivable to a Muslim for God to appear as a man, wrestle with another man and to loose the wrestling match (astaghfir'Allah). It is also inconcievable that Allah (swt) could be born of a woman and die on a cross.And how is this consistent with the concept of Divine Unity and Oneness of God? Jesus is God incarnate (according to Christian doctrine), but he yet sits at the right hand of God.^o)

You question not me but the Bible. I believe Jacob wrestled an angel that God sent. To fight against who God sends, it is the same as fighting against God. A man cannot phsyically wrestle or fight God who is Spirit. IMO, you rush in where angels fear to tread! I will ask God to bless you with reproof as strong as needed to get you on track in Jesus' name. You can pray the same for me in Allah's name -- deal? If yes, your reproof will come the next time you call Jesus "son of Mary"

 

[MustafaMc]

You question not me but the Bible. I believe Jacob wrestled an angel that God sent. To fight against who God sends, it is the same as fighting against God. A man cannot phsyically wrestle or fight God who is Spirit.

Same chapter verse 30 “I have seen God face to face, yet my life has been preserved.” which implies that Jacob believed that he had wrestled with God. However, we know this verse is not true, for no man has seen God, not even Moses.

IMO, you rush in where angels fear to tread! I will ask God to bless you with reproof as strong as needed to get you on track in Jesus' name. You can pray the same for me in Allah's name -- deal? If yes, your reproof will come the next time you call Jesus "son of Mary"

Reproof - call on the carpet: censure severely or angrily. Sounds like a threat to me, if so, then bring it on.

Quran 3:45 (And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from Him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of those brought near (unto Allah).

Quran 4:171 O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. ...

Quran 5:72 They surely disbelieve who say: Lo! Allah is the Messiah, son of Mary. The Messiah (himself) said: O Children of Israel, worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord. Lo! whoso ascribeth partners unto Allah, for him Allah hath forbidden paradise. His abode is the Fire. For evil-doers there will be no helpers.

 

[MustafaMc]

Once they have heard the truth and still reject it, we should NOT continue to give them the holy and sacred things of God.

My understanding of this applies to you from my perspective and to me from your perspective. We have each conveyed what we believe is the Truth and yet the other adamantly adheres to his previous beliefs. I rather feel that I should be patient, continue to share what I hold to be true, and to leave the guiding or leaving astray for Allah (swt).

You have a zeal but not according to knowledge my friend. You are mistaken about this and even more serious things about Scripture in the Bible. Christians belief that Jesus has the monopoly on all that is called God. Speaking of Monopoly, He is still giving out those "Get out of hell free" cards

Zeal - eagerness and ardent interest in pursuit of something.
Zealot - one who is full of zeal for his own specific beliefs or objectives, usually in the negative sense of being too passionate; a fanatic.

I guess that applies to me as I can come across pretty strong in my convictions. I believe that Islam is the Straight Way and that Christianity is way of misguidance that I once believed to be true. Allah (swt) has willed for me to have the amount of knowledge that I have. If I write incorrectly or out of ignorance, then others are welcome to correct me.

I do not put my hope for salvation in other than the mercy and forgiveness of my Creator, Allah (swt); therefore, you can have the blood-soaked Monopoly card that I turned in 30 years ago in exchange for "La ilaha Il'Allah wa Muhammadan abdahu wa rasool'Allah".