What Would Jesus (pbuh) Be?

[Grace Seeker]

Please bring forth the bible verses where Jesus pbuh told directly loud and clear to worship him, and let's compare to the bible verses where he told directly loud and clear to worship only God.

I never said that jesus told people to worship him. I said he told people to worship him exactly as many times as he told people to NOT worship him. If you believe Jesus told people to NOT worship him, then it is incombant on you to bring forth the Bible verses where Jesus told directly, loud, and clear "Do NOT worship me." Find me just one where he words it that way.

 

[mkh4JC]

Back on topic,

Jesus pbuh would never go to church to pray because churches have become place for sexual deviants and perversion.

see: sexual abuse, children molestation, sexual perversities and deviances throughout the church history done by the church authority themselves.
That is the perks obtained by "those arcane restricting laws are for the jews only, for us we can just confess and halleluja!"

I see.
So, according to your interpretation of Jesus teachings, those priests and nuns who killed directly and helped slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda should just confess to God, and their sins are forgiven and all is well in the kumbaya land?

Again. Not everyone who calls themselves Christians are really Christ's. There are many people living in this world who go to church on Sunday and live like hell Monday through Saturday. Here's what Jesus said:

'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name have done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity' (hidden sin). Matthew 7: 21-23.

Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid. He will tell them he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils.

Also, consider this passage:

'For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening God dealeth with you as sons, for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievious: nevertheless afteward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of rightouesness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-11.

I repeat, you CANNOT just accept Christ and then begin to live any old kind of lifestyle that you want, because you have now accepted him and he died for your sins. If you do so, if you begin to live any old kind of lifestyle you want, then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with. I can't stress this enough. I know from experience what is like to be chastened by God, for sinning when I first accepted the Lord as my savior. I have been chastened sore for going on seven years now, and if I were to tell you the things that I have had to endure for sinning as a Christian, you'd consider them lies.

 

[aadil77]

I don't understand how laws with in the bible only somehow apply to one group and not everyone, shouldn't god's law apply to all of mankind

 

[Nathaniel]

I don't understand how laws with in the bible only somehow apply to one group and not everyone, shouldn't god's law apply to all of mankind

Good question, aadil77. There are basically three types of laws in the torah (the first five books of the Bible: moral, ceremonial and civil. It is useful to look at the purposes of these different types:

• Moral laws apply to all people at all times: this is God's universal standard upon which He judges everyone. All these laws, in the end, come down to two things: loving God, and loving your fellow human beings.
• Ceremonial laws applied to all believers until Jesus' death (because Jesus' death fulfilled these laws) - these are the laws about things like circumcision and sacrificing animals: these laws are symbolic, and their purpose is to provide outward expressions of faith. For example, circumcision is an outward expression of commitment and obedience to God, and is symbolic of the perfect standard of holiness that God requires of his people.
• Civil laws applied to all those in the land of Israel when it was nation: these laws were the civil regulations of Israel, and have to do with the nation's law-enforcement and order.

It is only the moral laws which tell us what is right and wrong (and thus what it is to sin), and so it is these laws which have always applied (and will always apply) to all people.

I hope this helps! Do ask more questions if you would like some more information or if this isn't clear. : )

 

[Ramadhan]

He is only God, therefore worshipping Him is worshipping God.

Ok, if that is so, please bring the verses where Jesus pbuh says "Worship me".

Ouch, geez louis, bold claim. Any evidence for that? I assume you're referring to the Catholic cases of peadophilia by priests, and whilst they're rare, I agree Jesus would never enter a Catholic church- He'd only ever visit a Protestant one! Problem solved duderino.

sexual deviances in churches are rare?? Are you challenging me and want me to produce historical evidence of all kinds of sexual perversions that have been going on inside churches since the dark ages? I can do it if you want me to, but I thought I might save some good christians here from further embarrassment.
I have no doubt that the perversions will not end at any time, case in point: gay marriages in a church are getting more and more accepted in western churches.

You also forget that those church sexual perversions is not the main reason why Jesus pbuh would not go to a church to pray. Please read my previous posts just in case you forget.

Again, this is more of a thing against the corrupt Catholic church than Christians, including Catholics, in general. Do you have any quarrels with Christians aside from a select elite residing in the Vatican? Of course people who commit genocide will be punished duly. They shall be punished, but one day, perhaps in the hereafter, God shall extend His mercy upon them.

Nope, I have no quarrels whatsoever with vatican/catholics/christians. I am only highlighting the fundamental flaws in the church and its philosophy.

 

[Ramadhan]

No, that is not what I said. I said that people should own what they have done. Whether they are to be forgiven or not is up to God to decide -- i.e., Allah knows best. Surely you can't object to leaving such decisions in God's hands?

So, according to you, those evil-doers should not be punished. Christians don't believe Jesus pbuh laws apply to them, and christians believe in "turn your left cheek if your right cheek is slapped".
and if one has sin, a confession is enough to forgive all sins.
Logically, christians would just have to let those evil priests, bishops and nuns to confess their sins to god without giving them any earthly punishments.

They need to also be prepared to accept whatever consequences might be meted out to them in this life by civil authorities.

hence, there is complete disconnect between christianity as a religion with daily/earthly/worldly/practical affairs.

God already did. He made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That covenant binds Israel, but it has never bound any other people.

so God is discriminatory. God's laws are applicable only to jews, since according to christians god is a jew. For non-jews, you can do anything you desire as long as you confess after and sings halleluja!

 

[Ramadhan]

I never said that jesus told people to worship him. I said he told people to worship him exactly as many times as he told people to NOT worship him. If you believe Jesus told people to NOT worship him, then it is incombant on you to bring forth the Bible verses where Jesus told directly, loud, and clear "Do NOT worship me." Find me just one where he words it that way.

I know that christianity faith of man-as-a-god-as-a-man and three-in-one-but-really-is-three requires one hell of a cognitive dissonance exercise, but this logic from you takes the cake.

1. So jesus pbuh clearly in the bible repeatedly told his people to worships only god (he referred to as the father)
2. according to you, Jesus pbuh never told his people to worship him
3. according to you, Jesus pbuh never told his people not to worship him

hence, we must worship Jesus pbuh?

So, can we now go and start worshipping Paul?
After all, Jesus pbuh never told us to worship him but Jesus pbuh also never told us not to worship him. Paul also said to worships god, no? But paul also never told us to worship him or not worship him, no?

 

[Ramadhan]

Again. Not everyone who calls themselves Christians are really Christ's. There are many people living in this world who go to church on Sunday and live like hell Monday through Saturday. Here's what Jesus said:

'Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name have done many wonderful works?

And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity' (hidden sin). Matthew 7: 21-23.

Jesus won't say, I knew you but you backslid. He will tell them he never knew them period. And these are people who are going around supposedly casting out devils.

Also, consider this passage:

'For whom the Lord loveth, he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

If ye endure chastening God dealeth with you as sons, for what son is he whom the father chasteneth not?

But if ye be without chastisement, whereof all are partakers, then are ye bast-ards and not sons.

Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

For they verily for a few days chastened us after their own pleasure; but he for our profit, that we might be partakers of his holiness.

Now no chastening for the present seemeth to be joyous, but grievious: nevertheless afteward it yieldeth the peaceable fruit of rightouesness unto them which are exercised thereby.' Hebrews 12: 6-11.

I repeat, you CANNOT just accept Christ and then begin to live any old kind of lifestyle that you want, because you have now accepted him and he died for your sins. If you do so, if you begin to live any old kind of lifestyle you want, then that is evidence that you were never saved to begin with. I can't stress this enough. I know from experience what is like to be chastened by God, for sinning when I first accepted the Lord as my savior. I have been chastened sore for going on seven years now, and if I were to tell you the things that I have had to endure for sinning as a Christian, you'd consider them lies.

You forgot one important detail:
Those perpetrators of evil, killers and sexual abusers and deviants were not just ordinary christians who just go to church every sunday:
They were priests, nuns, bishops, evangelists, preachers, popes.
Not just catholic church, but all kinds of denominations.
And the perversions that have been going on since the dark ages are documented, if only captured just tiny bits of the whole crimes.
And it is still occurring, and I have no doubt it will only to always continue.

Hence, the problem seems not only lies on individual choices, but there have to be some fundamental flaws with the church itself or its philosophy.

 

[mkh4JC]

You forgot one important detail:
Those perpetrators of evil, killers and sexual abusers and deviants were not just ordinary christians who just go to church every sunday:
They were priests, nuns, bishops, evangelists, preachers.
Not just catholic church, but all kinds of denominations.
And the perversions that have been going on since the dark ages are documented, if only captured just tiny bits of the whole crimes.
And it is still occurring, and I have no doubt it will only to always continue.

Hence, the problem seems not only lies on individual choices, but there have to be some fundamental flaws with the church itself or its philosophy.

All I can tell you is, based on how I know God works in the life of believers, I find it very hard to believe that someone who is truly Christian can go to such an extreme as to take another person's life. God is always disciplining and chastening us as Christians, even our thought life. And Jesus said in the Gospels, 'He who kills with the sword must perish with the sword.' So already they are disobeying one of Jesus' teachings.

 

[Ramadhan]

I said Jesus would kill. Is a soldier in war a murderer?

Now we are getting somewhere.
So, Jesus would kill people.
No more "turn your left cheek" and sing "halleluia"

 

[glo]

Good question, aadil77. There are basically three types of laws in the torah (the first five books of the Bible: moral, ceremonial and civil. It is useful to look at the purposes of these different types:

• Moral laws apply to all people at all times: this is God's universal standard upon which He judges everyone. All these laws, in the end, come down to two things: loving God, and loving your fellow human beings.
• Ceremonial laws applied to all believers until Jesus' death (because Jesus' death fulfilled these laws) - these are the laws about things like circumcision and sacrificing animals: these laws are symbolic, and their purpose is to provide outward expressions of faith. For example, circumcision is an outward expression of commitment and obedience to God, and is symbolic of the perfect standard of holiness that God requires of his people.
• Civil laws applied to all those in the land of Israel when it was nation: these laws were the civil regulations of Israel, and have to do with the nation's law-enforcement and order.

It is only the moral laws which tell us what is right and wrong (and thus what it is to sin), and so it is these laws which have always applied (and will always apply) to all people.

I hope this helps! Do ask more questions if you would like some more information or if this isn't clear. : )

Thank you for sharing that, Nathaniel.

May (some of) the ceremonial and civil laws still be of meaning to Christians today, or not at all?
It would be a very interesting exercise to go though all the Jewish laws and sort the laws into their own category.
Do you know if that can be easily done, or if there are laws where scholars are undecided which category they fall into?

God bless.

 

[glo]

According to the book of Revelation it would appear that in his second coming Christ will indeed do battle against and slay those who are in rebellion. Whether he has qualms about doing so the text does not say. As to their wickedness, that is not specified either but I feel that it is safe to say one might infer that they are indeed wicked, but that wickedness would extended to those who saw themselves as "good" but were in rebellion against God and Christ and as such would include all who were unwilling to recognize the Lamb of God (i.e., Christ) as being legitimately on the throne of heaven.

Now we are getting somewhere.
So, Jesus would kill people.
No more "turn your left cheek" and sing "halleluia"

I hope you two don't mind me offering my own thoughts on this.
It may or may not be theologically sound, but I am sure Grace Seeker can offer his knowledge to put me right, if necessary.

I have a sense that we are talking about two Jesus' - the human Jesus and the divine Jesus.

Christians believe that the first and foremost reason that God came to earth as man, was to reconcile mankind to himself.
But as a consequence of God coming to earth we now have the man Jesus, who gives us the perfect example of perfect living - through his teachings, his parables and his actions.

I must say that if I look to the man Jesus, I find him to give me examples of peaceful, loving and caring living.
He did say 'turn the other cheek'; he did say 'walk the extra mile'; he did say 'lay you life down for your brother'; he did tell his disciples to put away their swords and healed the soldier's severed ear; he did heal and help wherever he went; etc, etc ...
If I choose to follow Jesus, then really and truly he is calling me to a life of loving and caring, seeking peace and harmony with all.

It is true that Jesus said he had come to cause division - and by saying that he points to the other Jesus, the divine Jesus.
Jesus causes people to fall into two groups: those who follow him (I think the idea of who follows or doesn't follow Jesus is a very interesting one, and perhaps deserves another discussion elsewhere ...) and those who refuse to follow him.

The divine Jesus will come to do battle against evil in the last days.
That will be a divine act of divine justice. How can we pass judgment on God?? That would be blasphemous to an extreme!

God's judgement is above and beyond us all.

But the man Jesus shows us how to live a good and righteous life.

Am I making sense?

 

[Ramadhan]

Let's go back on topic:

Jesus would not worship in a church because he said:

(Matthew 15:9):
“But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.”

Men make all doctrines of modern Christianity: the Trinity, Divine Sonship of Jesus, Divinity of Jesus Christ, Original Sin and Atonement.

 

[Ramadhan]

Again,
I don't think I have stressed enough the interesting fact that current Islamic teachings and practices much more resemble Jesus pbuh teachings and practices?

The life of a good muslim reflects much more the life of Jesus pbuh than the life of a good christian does.

 

[Ramadhan]

The point of this thread is to show christians to closely examine the real life and teachings and practices of Jesus pbuh and to contrast them with the current teachings/commands/practices of christianity/church of any denomination.

I just find it staggering that christians would rather follow the church and all of their made up rituals, doctrines, teachings and practices, and discard almost everything that Jesus pbuh did.

Christians believe Jesus pbuh is god, and apparently what was good for god is not good enough for men.
How more blasphemous can you get than this.

 

[Nathaniel]

Thank you for sharing that, Nathaniel.

May (some of) the ceremonial and civil laws still be of meaning to Christians today, or not at all?
It would be a very interesting exercise to go though all the Jewish laws and sort the laws into their own category.
Do you know if that can be easily done, or if there are laws where scholars are undecided which category they fall into?

God bless.

Certainly all of the ceremonial and civil laws can have meaning today - but we have to look at the reasons God commanded them at that point in history. These reasons show us the underlying principles (like commitment, holiness) that certainly apply to us today. Ultimately, they all point towards Jesus' fulfilment (completion) of the Law in his life and death, and it is through the lens of this fulfilment that we can see more clearly these principles.

I think the Torah makes it pretty clear which laws are moral, ceremonial and civil, but I've not personally gone through them all to try and categorise them - though I think it would definitely be a good thing to do. Can you think of any examples which would be difficult to categorise?

 

[glo]

I think the Torah makes it pretty clear which laws are moral, ceremonial and civil, but I've not personally gone through them all to try and categorise them - though I think it would definitely be a good thing to do. Can you think of any examples which would be difficult to categorise?

Not off the top of my head.
Like you said, it might be an interesting exercise to go through.

 

[Nathaniel]

I was just thinking about the question this morning, and the more I thought about it, the more clear the answer is.
There has been strong movement especially in the USA called WWJD (What Would Jesus Do) to speculate about the actions of Jesus pbuh had he lived among us now.

If Jesus pbuh lived today, what would he be?

Let's see:
- He would believe in one God
- He would establish daily prayer and worships to God
- He would be circumcised
- He would not eat pork
- He would fast on certain days
- He would give alms/zakat
(these facts are from the Bible)

Based on the above characteristics, people would think he's a muslim, of course.

What do you think?

I'm interested as to where Jesus establishes a routine of regular prayer in the Bible, and where he teaches the people should fast on particular days. Could you show me?

I'd also be interested in any evidence that shows that Jesus taught that the Mosaic Law applied to Gentiles as well as Jews.

 

[Ramadhan]

Back on topic,

Jesus pbuh would not go to a church to pray, because he would be forced to see and pray to statue of himself (often half naked), nailed to a cross.

The likeness of Jesus pbuh (and Mary pbuh and other people) are so prevalent in all churches, even though christians are aware that that is something NOT allowed by Jesus pbuh, as he said:

Deutronomy 5:7-9] “Thou shalt not have strange gods in my sight. Thou shalt not make to thy self a graven thing, nor the likeness of any things, that are in heaven above, or that are in the earth beneath, or that abide in the waters under the earth. Thou shalt not adore them, and thou shalt not serve them.”

More proof that Jesus pbuh would rather pray and worship in a mosque.

 

[Ramadhan]

Jesus pbuh and fasting:


What Jesus Said About Fasting !

The Gospel of Matthew shows that Jesus “fasted forty days and forty nights” (Matthew 4:21). The Gospel of Luke adds the detail that “in those days he did eat nothing: and when they were ended, he afterward hungered” (Luke 4:2). Since Jesus fasted, his true followers will also fast, if they indeed follow his teachings. He said, “If ye continue in my word, then are ye my disciples indeed” (John 8:31).

People had complained to Jesus saying, “Why do the disciples of John fast often, and make prayers, and likewise the disciples of the Pharisees; but thine eat and drink?” (Luke 5:33). But Jesus replied that as long as he is with them his disciples should not fast, but after he is taken away then “they will fast in those days” (Luke 5:35). This is why Jesus also gave them instructions on how to fast for the sake of God (Matthew 6:16-18). If they were never to fast, such instructions would be pointless. The Bible shows that the disciples were fasting afterwards: “they had fasted and prayed” (Acts 13:3), and again they had “prayed with fasting” (Acts 14:23).

The Bible mentions fasting as one of the observances of a minister of God (2 Corinthians 6:5), and “fasting often” as a proof of the worth of a disciple of Jesus.

Luke 5:33 quoted above reveals that (a) fasting means abstinence from eating and drinking, and, (b) that although the disciples were not to fast until after Jesus was taken away, Jesus himself continued to fast, otherwise the complaint would have been against him also. It is clear that the Jewish Rabbis were fasting (Matthew 9:14, and Mark 2:18). And Jesus too was called a Rabbi (see John 1:38; 3:2; 6:25 and Matthew 23:8). So he too must have been
fasting.

The disciples were unable to drive out a demon from a boy, but Jesus drove it out. When the disciples asked how he did it, he said that this kind can be driven out only “by prayer and fasting” (Mark 9:29). This shows that because the disciples were not fasting they could not drive out the demon, and, that Jesus could drive it out because he was fasting. Some copyists attempted to change this verse by leaving out the words ‘and fasting’. This is how, for example, the Revised Standard Version reads. But this reading gives the passage an impossible meaning that Jesus’s disciples were not praying either. This is perhaps why the Catholic Edition of the Revised Standard Version restores the words ‘and fasting’. The New Testament From the Ancient Eastern Text also includes the words ‘and fasting’ (Mark 9:29).

God rescued us from this uncertainty by revealing his final incorruptible message in which He instructs all able believers to fast for a month each year. Today Jesus' true followers are still fasting according to God's pure instructions. Muslims are the true followers of Jesus and all of God's Messengers.

All Bible references are to the King James Version except where stated otherwise.

http://www.beconvinced.com/archive/...0088&catid=06&subcatname=Islam & Christianity