What Would Jesus (pbuh) Be?

[Grace Seeker]

Jesus pbuh would certainly shun churches, as current churches are used instead as money making enterprises.
see: evangelists, chatholic church.

Now, finally, I think you are getting to something that represents the character of Jesus. I think that Jesus would enter most churches primarily to ask them to get with the program. To start going about the task he commissioned them to be about, that is making disciples. He didn't ask us to become some sort of sanctified rotary or country club. However, I also don't think that is inclusive of all churches, but mostly those in westernized nations. There are plenty of churches (even a few in the west) that have something other than their own self-aggrandizement motivating them, and that are genuinely seeking to know God and serve him as his ambassadors in this world.

 

[Grace Seeker]

My words exactly , they should be called Paulians and not Christians. Any Knowledgeable christian would say that the True founder of Christianity is St Paul and not Jesus (PBUH)

You imply by such a statement that you know more about what it means to be a Christian than do those who are Christians. Worse, you also imply that anyone who disagrees with you is also not knowledgeable.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Our Jesus is certainly NOT a God. What a terrible thing in the eyes of God that the creations worship the created more than the creator.

The Son of God is not a created being, we Christians would assert that he is indeed the creator. So, we don't violate that which you appear to be most concerned about. But rather, we would hold that in your assertion that we who worship Jesus worship the created that you are doing the terrible thing of calling the creator nothing more than a part of his creation.

It all depends on where you are standing, just what you will see.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I'd like to add two more things to those:

- He will break the crosses
- He will kill the pigs (Jews)

lol since when did killing an animal make you a murderer? And there was no parallel to begin with; mangod vs prophet of god?

Abdul Qadir's posts seems to equate pigs and Jews -- at least that is my understanding as to why he has inserted the word "Jews" in the parenthesis, to explain that by pigs he actually means Jews. (If that is not what he means I would like for him to clear that up for me please.)

So, to say that he will kill the pigs is identical to saying that he will kill the Jews.

Are you now saying that human beings who are Jews should not be thought of as anything more than as an animal? Or that the killing of a Jew should not be considered murder?

 

[Grace Seeker]

the Quran tells us the good news(Heaven) and warns us repeatedly(about Hell)....Yes, Allah loves us 70 times more than the most loving mother in the world...but that is for those who deserve it...

Then I guess we are all bound for hell, for none of us can ever truly claim to "deserve" it.

 

[Ramadhan]

This is what is in Revelation:

'And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called the Word of God.

And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.' Revelation 19: 11-15.

This is in reference to the Second Coming. So yes, at the end of the age, Jesus will make war with the Beast Antichrist and his kingdom.

So in plainer words, Jesus pbuh would have no qualms in killing the anti christ and other wicked people.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So in plainer words, Jesus pbuh would have no qualms in killing the anti christ and other wicked people.

According to the book of Revelation it would appear that in his second coming Christ will indeed do battle against and slay those who are in rebellion. Whether he has qualms about doing so the text does not say. As to their wickedness, that is not specified either but I feel that it is safe to say one might infer that they are indeed wicked, but that wickedness would extended to those who saw themselves as "good" but were in rebellion against God and Christ and as such would include all who were unwilling to recognize the Lamb of God (i.e., Christ) as being legitimately on the throne of heaven.

 

[Ramadhan]

Now, finally, I think you are getting to something that represents the character of Jesus. I think that Jesus would enter most churches primarily to ask them to get with the program. To start going about the task he commissioned them to be about, that is making disciples. He didn't ask us to become some sort of sanctified rotary or country club. However, I also don't think that is inclusive of all churches, but mostly those in westernized nations. There are plenty of churches (even a few in the west) that have something other than their own self-aggrandizement motivating them, and that are genuinely seeking to know God and serve him as his ambassadors in this world.

Aaahhh... you must have missed my previous post about the main reason Jesus pbuh would never enter a church in the first place:

Jesus pbuh would never enter a church because then he would be forced to worship his own self.
Remember in the bible, Jesus pbuh always said to worship God only, The One.

Churches used as money spinning enterprises is only the supporting reason why Jesus pbuh would never enter a church.

 

[Ramadhan]

According to the book of Revelation it would appear that in his second coming Christ will indeed do battle against and slay those who are in rebellion. Whether he has qualms about doing so the text does not say. As to their wickedness, that is not specified either but I feel that it is safe to say one might infer that they are indeed wicked, but that wickedness would extended to those who saw themselves as "good" but were in rebellion against God and Christ and as such would include all who were unwilling to recognize the Lamb of God (i.e., Christ) as being legitimately on the throne of heaven.

Finally, a christian who acknowledge that Jesus pbuh would be a murderer. because in previous posts, other christians flatly denied that Jesus pbuh would be a murderer, dressing up in words such as "loving", "forgive all sins" etc.
so, no more "turn your left cheek" kumbaya-style non-sensical phrases, huh?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Finally, a christian who acknowledge that Jesus pbuh would be a murderer. because in previous posts, other christians flatly denied that Jesus pbuh would be a murderer, dressing up in words such as "loving", "forgive all sins" etc.
so, no more "turn your left cheek" kumbaya-style non-sensical phrases, huh?

I said Jesus would kill. Is a soldier in war a murderer?

 

[Grace Seeker]

Aaahhh... you must have missed my previous post about the main reason Jesus pbuh would never enter a church in the first place:

Jesus pbuh would never enter a church because then he would be forced to worship his own self.
Remember in the bible, Jesus pbuh always said to worship God only, The One.

Churches used as money spinning enterprises is only the supporting reason why Jesus pbuh would never enter a church.

Yes, I knew that. I concur that there is some validity in your supporting reason. I do not acknowledge what you see as the main reason to have any basis in fact.

 

[Ramadhan]

The command concerning not eating pork is found in Leviticus, it is not a law of Jesus. Jesus gave one command: Love one another as I have loved you. And when asked about the greatest command, he said to "love God" and then he added that along with that one was also to "love your neighbor". Jesus didn't say to not eat pork.

interesting.
So according to christian interpretation. Anything Jesus pbuh was and did is of holds no relevance whatsoever to the faith.

No wonder current practices of christians are so removed from what Jesus pbuh was and did.
It seems that as long as you believe that Jesus pbuh died on the cross to expiate all your sins, then you can do whatever you want, regardless of jesus pbuh examples and teachings.

an example:

http://www.newsfromafrica.org/articles/art_10231.html

All over Rwandan hills, valleys and mountains, thousands of crosses
mark mass graves of genocide victims of 1994. During the genocide, many
Tutsis were massacred in or around places of worship, including Catholic churches – paradoxically, in a country which was the most Christianised in Africa, with Christians representing more than 80% of the population. Catholic bishops in Rwanda have sometimes claimed that all Rwandans believe in God. (Kinyamateka, No. 1614, January 2003, pg. 6) There are hundreds of churches and chapels everywhere and almost every day followers repeatedly recite the prayer, “Our Father who art in heaven”, pleading with the Father to deliver them from evil (Matthew 6:13). From where, then, did the malevolence at the root of the genocide come? How and by whom could it have been overcome? Part of the answer to these questions is the Church and its members.


http://www.afrol.com/Countries/Rwanda/backgr_cross_genocide.htm

The 1994 Rwandan genocide, killing an estimated 800,000 Tutsis and moderate Hutus, is made even more incomprehensible by the documented participation of many representatives of Rwandan church societies. How could God fearing nuns, and even a bishop, take part in the most cruel crimes against humanity committed on African soil? Even worse, several church societies allegedly were co-responsible for the growing hatred that led to the genocide. It remains an enormous contradiction to the Christian Message of Love.

The pattern is very clear. Throughout history, the churches have always conducted evils so shocking that when Jesus pbuh had been around, he would have battled wars against them and killed those evil and wicked people, and definitely not coming to them and say "your sins are forgiven", "do you want to slap my left cheek" and "lets hold hands and sing kumbaya"

Quote:
Then they asked him, "What must we do to do the works God requires?" Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has [/b]sent[/B]." (John 6:28-29)

So according to this verse, God sent Jesus pbuh. So God did not come down to the earth Himself (unlike the belief of prevailing greek/latin/roman/pagan faith who portrayed God as coming down to the earth. Otherwise Jesus pbuh woudl have said "to believe in me, your god who has come down to the earth"
This verse is very clear, unless you want to twist it around and around.

 

[Ramadhan]

Yes, I knew that. I concur that there is some validity in your supporting reason. I do not acknowledge what you see as the main reason to have any basis in fact.

Maybe it's time for you to read your bible again, and see if Jesus pbuh ever told his people to worship him.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Maybe it's time for you to read your bible again, and see if Jesus pbuh ever told his people to worship him.

He told people to worship exactly as many times as he told people to NOT worship him. Beyond that red herring, I've noted more than once on this forum that there are several times when people did worship Jesus and he accepted that worship of him.

 

[Grace Seeker]

interesting.
So according to christian interpretation. Anything Jesus pbuh was and did is of holds no relevance whatsoever to the faith.

No wonder current practices of christians are so removed from what Jesus pbuh was and did.
It seems that as long as you believe that Jesus pbuh died on the cross to expiate all your sins, then you can do whatever you want, regardless of jesus pbuh examples and teachings.

Christianity teaches no such thing, and it is a slander concotted by people who desire not to deceive others with regard to our teaches that Christians are not accountable for our actions. Jesus' taking of our sins upon himself demands that we give all of our allegiance to him, we are not our own but his. We cannot do whatever we want, we are to live according to his will for our lives. But that will simply does not include the keeping of the levitical rituals for non-Jewish Christians.

That some persons claiming to be followers of Christ have done terrible things I acknowledge. I myself, though not having done any of the crimes you listed above, have not always been faithful to follow Christ as I ought. There is no excuse for this. We need to confess our sins. Confession means to acknowledge that we are in the wrong and not living in accordance with the will of God. Of course we pray that God might forgivess, but that is for God to decide. Our job is to get back on track and begin to live in harmony and submission to God's direction for our lives. But to make that about something like ritual cleanness as set forth in the Levitical code is not what God is asking from us. Ritual cleanliness is not even what it ever meant for Jews to keep Torah, and was what Jesus himself often objected to in criticizing the religious establishment of his day, that they kept every jot and tittle of the law but neglected its spirit.

 

[Ramadhan]

He told people to worship exactly as many times as he told people to NOT worship him. Beyond that red herring, I've noted more than once on this forum that there are several times when people did worship Jesus and he accepted that worship of him.

Please bring forth the bible verses where Jesus pbuh told directly loud and clear to worship him, and let's compare to the bible verses where he told directly loud and clear to worship only God.

 

[Ramadhan]

That some persons claiming to be followers of Christ have done terrible things I acknowledge. I myself, though not having done any of the crimes you listed above, have not always been faithful to follow Christ as I ought. There is no excuse for this. We need to confess our sins. Confession means to acknowledge that we are in the wrong and not living in accordance with the will of God. Of course we pray that God might forgivess, but that is for God to decide. Our job is to get back on track and begin to live in harmony and submission to God's direction for our lives. But to make that about something like ritual cleanness as set forth in the Levitical code is not what God is asking from us. Ritual cleanliness is not even what it ever meant for Jews to keep Torah, and was what Jesus himself often objected to in criticizing the religious establishment of his day, that they kept every jot and tittle of the law but neglected its spirit.

I see.
So, according to your interpretation of Jesus teachings, those priests and nuns who killed directly and helped slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda should just confess to God, and their sins are forgiven and all is well in the kumbaya land?

And who decided which laws are applicable only to the jews? and where do you set boundaries as to which laws are for jews and which laws are for gentiles?

 

[Ramadhan]

Back on topic,

Jesus pbuh would never go to church to pray because churches have become place for sexual deviants and perversion.

see: sexual abuse, children molestation, sexual perversities and deviances throughout the church history done by the church authority themselves.
That is the perks obtained by "those arcane restricting laws are for the jews only, for us we can just confess and halleluja!"

 

[Supreme]

Please bring forth the bible verses where Jesus pbuh told directly loud and clear to worship him, and let's compare to the bible verses where he told directly loud and clear to worship only God.

He is only God, therefore worshipping Him is worshipping God.

Jesus pbuh would never go to church to pray because churches have become place for sexual deviants and perversion.

Ouch, geez louis, bold claim. Any evidence for that? I assume you're referring to the Catholic cases of peadophilia by priests, and whilst they're rare, I agree Jesus would never enter a Catholic church- He'd only ever visit a Protestant one! Problem solved duderino.

see.
So, according to your interpretation of Jesus teachings, those priests and nuns who killed directly and helped slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda should just confess to God, and their sins are forgiven and all is well in the kumbaya land

Again, this is more of a thing against the corrupt Catholic church than Christians, including Catholics, in general. Do you have any quarrels with Christians aside from a select elite residing in the Vatican? Of course people who commit genocide will be punished duly. They shall be punished, but one day, perhaps in the hereafter, God shall extend His mercy upon them.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I see.
So, according to your interpretation of Jesus teachings, those priests and nuns who killed directly and helped slaughtering hundreds of thousands of people in Rwanda should just confess to God, and their sins are forgiven and all is well in the kumbaya land?

No, that is not what I said. I said that people should own what they have done. Whether they are to be forgiven or not is up to God to decide -- i.e., Allah knows best. Surely you can't object to leaving such decisions in God's hands?

They need to also be prepared to accept whatever consequences might be meted out to them in this life by civil authorities.

And who decided which laws are applicable only to the jews? and where do you set boundaries as to which laws are for jews and which laws are for gentiles?

God already did. He made a covenant with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. That covenant binds Israel, but it has never bound any other people.