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^^Totally agreed!
What's with the sudden outbreak of Jesus Visions?
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Good to know
Glad we agree.
But dont you see, if something goes against what you believe to be true then it is false, it is likely that satan has something to do with it. You say it is rude, well if you read Jesus' words (According to John) then he seemed 'rude' to some people to, why? Because there was a need.
I hear people having loads of experiences, I have a Jewish friend who has had one, many Christians who have and Muslims too, now Satan is decieving some people, should I just stand and let Satan do his work? Or should I help my brothers and sisters in the best way I can?
Sometimes we have to push an individual out of the path of a train. Sure the push maybe rude, but it is better than death. Maybe I just care about others too much.
And your Lord said: "Invoke Me, (and ask Me for anything) I will respond to your (invocation).40:60
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If anything people should be getting 'visions' of the reverse.. Quran mentiones Jesus P over 20 times and in the best of manner.. I can't visit a christian site without having them malign the character of prophet Mohammed SAS in the worst manner.. it is as if the validation of their entire religion is contingent upon how poorly they portray Muslims which is so infantile and at same time hilarious.. I believe this not to be a vision at all, rather one of the ploys to loan more credence to the man/God concept, as more and more people finding it ludicrous and converting to Islam...
If it didn't bother them so much, the spokes person of the church wouldn't pass public statements and with such vehemence and rancor on how we are now outnumbering them..
If it didn't bother them so much, the spokes person of the church wouldn't pass public statements and with such vehemence and rancor on how we are now outnumbering them..
Hmmm, I DO understand what you mean, dont get me wrong lol but.. I wanna know that say... if a Christian converts to.. Judaism on a vision, would you care enough to then say its wrong/the work of Satan etc?
Also, lets flip the script, and say that if a Christian was to convert to Islam on the basis of a similar Vision, would you think it would be right?
I applaud you for refering to Jesus Christ
but when you said if something goes against what YOU beleive in did you mean you YOURSELF or on the regards of the individual? because what could be right to you may only be right to you on the basis of your own relgion, and could be the opposite in a different religion- just like when you mentioned it was wrong for the guy to have a vision because he might think Jesus is God, on your terms and religion you will think its wrong, on some denominations of Christianity, it is right. Visions of what kind, because Visions can be like nightmares and if the individuals were not comfortable with these visions then by all means jump in and help
I like your analogy
it makes sense as well, and from your previous statements that I have quoted I dont think its wrong for you to intervene, its what humans do the fact that you intervene is because you know in your heart that you are pleasing God Almighty when you say what you have to. And there are situations which indeed adhere to your analogy and beleive me we all need a push in the right directionBut there are also some scenarios which are delicate, its abit like... parents, raising their child to adulthood.. and then when its time to Marry, the parents may advise the Son/Daughter to Marry someone of their liking because they have far more life experience than the Son/Daughter does.. so they know people better. But if the Son/Daughter has already fallen in love with someone else, no matter what the parents might say, he/she will be likley to marry whom they love.
All the parents can do is pray to God and ask that he show the new couple the right path.
Just as perhaps if we think someone is not right.. The person who you might tell that their vision is wrong, may not like your opinion in the first place and go ahead and convert anyway... all you could do is pray that God keep them safe and offer them guidance...
Jesus done this as u said, he was one with much wisdom and knowledge, since he is not here no more, all we can do is pray to God and ask him to bless those who we think have chosen the wrong path, because our opinions may not matter to them in the first place.
If anything people should be getting 'visions' of the reverse.. Quran mentiones Jesus P over 20 times and in the best of manner.. I can't visit a christian site without having them malign the character of prophet Mohammed SAS in the worst manner.. it is as if the validation of their entire religion is contingent upon how poorly they portray Muslims which is so infantile and at same time hilarious.. I believe this not to be a vision at all, rather one of the ploys to loan more credence to the man/God concept, as more and more people finding it ludicrous and converting to Islam...
If it didn't bother them so much, the spokes person of the church wouldn't pass public statements and with such vehemence and rancor on how we are now outnumbering them..
you say that Jesus is mentioned, and is in the best of manner IN THE QU'RAN.. beleive me sister, there are MANY who do the exact opposite on sites, youtube and other sources...they treat him in the worse manner...towards both Jesus and Christianity..... and they claim to be Muslims...Reality is...Humans HATE...no matter the religion...we can only ask God to forgive these people... and I praise those who enter Islam, and ask God to forgive those who look down upon islam.. but the topic was upon the vision itself... perhaps if someone got a reverse one, we wouldnt be having the same convo.... on why we think its wrong, but perhaps why people would have thought it was right..
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You can't be a Muslim and hate Jesus, it goes against the fundamental basics of Islam..
christianity is a different story all together, I see nothing wrong with rebutting half the crap that is posted out there...
cheers
christianity is a different story all together, I see nothing wrong with rebutting half the crap that is posted out there...
cheers
Well I suppose the people who do say that stuff...are not true muslims if thats what you say..I dont want to debate with you on why you think Christianity is a different story on that basis compared to Islam..
because lets face it... we could go at it all day and all night... and nope, you can rubute whatever you like, its your God Given right to oppose what you beleive not to be true..
God Bless you Sister
barney
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Apart from being sent with "clear arguements", acending to heaven, "doing miracles" which are not described and warning people to "gaurd against evil", Jesus's teachings are not mentioned.
How can a muslim follow his teachings if they are corrupted and the Koran dosnt say what they are?
Is a muslim to beleive in parts of the new testement? if so which parts?
How can a muslim follow his teachings if they are corrupted and the Koran dosnt say what they are?
Is a muslim to beleive in parts of the new testement? if so which parts?
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You keep saying you have read the Quran cover to cover? why do you miss very basic things?
وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَكِنْ لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَا آتَاكُمْ فَاسْتَبِقُوا الْخَيْرَاتِ إِلَى اللَّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (48) وَأَنِ احْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ وَاحْذَرْهُمْ أَنْ يَفْتِنُوكَ عَنْ بَعْضِ مَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكَ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ أَنْ يُصِيبَهُمْ بِبَعْضِ ذُنُوبِهِمْ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنَ النَّاسِ لَفَاسِقُونَ (49)
And We have sent down to you the Book (this Qur’ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) {1} . So judge among them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.
{1} (V.5:48) Muhaimin : that which testifies the truth that is therein and falsifies the falsehood that is added therein.
And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allâh has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allâh has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allâh’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh).
m note: the word 'Muhaymin' وَمُهَيْمِنًا denotes abrogation to some of it...
If you want to know what is confirmatory and what is to be abrogated you'll need to enroll in Al-Azhar.. it is beyond the sphere of what this forum can offer you...
cheers
addendum:
All revealed books and teachings are identical and in complete accord with one another. The details and confirmation to this effect is proved by many Ayaat (verses) of the Glorious Qur’aan,
2. The revelations prior to Glorious Qur’aan were meant for a particular time and none of them were eternal,
3. The Glorious Qur’aan is the last of the revealed Books. It is eternal, embraces all principles of earlier messages and will remain CURRENT until the Day of Judgment:
4. وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ In Ayaah 5:48 of the Glorious Qur’aan the word مهيمن (Muhainan) means ► To watch over, oversee, to be witness to, offer security, control, protect, determine what is true. Here it means Guardian to watch and determine what is true and what is false witness.◄ The Glorious Qur’aan is spoken of as a مهيمن (Muhainan) over the previous scriptures (5:48). This is to describe it as the determining factor in deciding what is genuine and what is false in the remnants of earlier scriptures. The Glorious Qur’aan has preserved all that is of permanent worth and value in them, and has left out that which fail to meet the need of mankind and/or is adulteration. The Glorious Qur’aan is called a guardian over the previous scriptures as it enjoys Divine protection against being tampered with, a blessing denied to earlier scriptures. Thus مُهَيْمِنًا Muhaiminan is the name of the Glorious Qur’aan as well. It is also one of the excellent names of Allaah (SWT) as we read in Glorious Qur’aan 59:23 الْمَلِكُ الْقُدُّوسُ السَّلامُ الْمُؤْمِنُ الْمُهَيْمِنُ as He is guardian to determine what is true and what is false and watch over, Who expands His love and protection over His creatures, controls their affairs, determines what is true and what is false. {Note: Ayaah 59:23 contains nine names alone out of 99 names of Allaah.}
وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ فَاحْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ عَمَّا جَاءَكَ مِنَ الْحَقِّ لِكُلٍّ جَعَلْنَا مِنْكُمْ شِرْعَةً وَمِنْهَاجًا وَلَوْ شَاءَ اللَّهُ لَجَعَلَكُمْ أُمَّةً وَاحِدَةً وَلَكِنْ لِيَبْلُوَكُمْ فِي مَا آتَاكُمْ فَاسْتَبِقُوا الْخَيْرَاتِ إِلَى اللَّهِ مَرْجِعُكُمْ جَمِيعًا فَيُنَبِّئُكُمْ بِمَا كُنْتُمْ فِيهِ تَخْتَلِفُونَ (48) وَأَنِ احْكُمْ بَيْنَهُمْ بِمَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ وَلَا تَتَّبِعْ أَهْوَاءَهُمْ وَاحْذَرْهُمْ أَنْ يَفْتِنُوكَ عَنْ بَعْضِ مَا أَنْزَلَ اللَّهُ إِلَيْكَ فَإِنْ تَوَلَّوْا فَاعْلَمْ أَنَّمَا يُرِيدُ اللَّهُ أَنْ يُصِيبَهُمْ بِبَعْضِ ذُنُوبِهِمْ وَإِنَّ كَثِيرًا مِنَ النَّاسِ لَفَاسِقُونَ (49)
And We have sent down to you the Book (this Qur’ân) in truth, confirming the Scripture that came before it and Muhaymin (trustworthy in highness and a witness) over it (old Scriptures) {1} . So judge among them by what Allâh has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging away from the truth that has come to you. To each among you, We have prescribed a law and a clear way. If Allâh had willed, He would have made you one nation, but that (He) may test you in what He has given you; so compete in good deeds. The return of you (all) is to Allâh; then He will inform you about that in which you used to differ.
{1} (V.5:48) Muhaimin : that which testifies the truth that is therein and falsifies the falsehood that is added therein.
And so judge (you O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) among them by what Allâh has revealed and follow not their vain desires, but beware of them lest they turn you (O Muhammad صلى الله عليه وسلم) far away from some of that which Allâh has sent down to you. And if they turn away, then know that Allâh’s Will is to punish them for some sins of theirs. And truly, most of men are Fâsiqûn (rebellious and disobedient to Allâh).
m note: the word 'Muhaymin' وَمُهَيْمِنًا denotes abrogation to some of it...
If you want to know what is confirmatory and what is to be abrogated you'll need to enroll in Al-Azhar.. it is beyond the sphere of what this forum can offer you...
cheers
addendum:
All revealed books and teachings are identical and in complete accord with one another. The details and confirmation to this effect is proved by many Ayaat (verses) of the Glorious Qur’aan,
2. The revelations prior to Glorious Qur’aan were meant for a particular time and none of them were eternal,
3. The Glorious Qur’aan is the last of the revealed Books. It is eternal, embraces all principles of earlier messages and will remain CURRENT until the Day of Judgment:
4. وَأَنْزَلْنَا إِلَيْكَ الْكِتَابَ بِالْحَقِّ مُصَدِّقًا لِمَا بَيْنَ يَدَيْهِ مِنَ الْكِتَابِ وَمُهَيْمِنًا عَلَيْهِ In Ayaah 5:48 of the Glorious Qur’aan the word مهيمن (Muhainan) means ► To watch over, oversee, to be witness to, offer security, control, protect, determine what is true. Here it means Guardian to watch and determine what is true and what is false witness.◄ The Glorious Qur’aan is spoken of as a مهيمن (Muhainan) over the previous scriptures (5:48). This is to describe it as the determining factor in deciding what is genuine and what is false in the remnants of earlier scriptures. The Glorious Qur’aan has preserved all that is of permanent worth and value in them, and has left out that which fail to meet the need of mankind and/or is adulteration. The Glorious Qur’aan is called a guardian over the previous scriptures as it enjoys Divine protection against being tampered with, a blessing denied to earlier scriptures. Thus مُهَيْمِنًا Muhaiminan is the name of the Glorious Qur’aan as well. It is also one of the excellent names of Allaah (SWT) as we read in Glorious Qur’aan 59:23 الْمَلِكُ الْقُدُّوسُ السَّلامُ الْمُؤْمِنُ الْمُهَيْمِنُ as He is guardian to determine what is true and what is false and watch over, Who expands His love and protection over His creatures, controls their affairs, determines what is true and what is false. {Note: Ayaah 59:23 contains nine names alone out of 99 names of Allaah.}
barney
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I dunno! I guess i'm a bit dumb.
So in effect any of Jesus's teachings are null and void because of the Koran, but he was sent by Allah, just for that particular period and people. Got it.
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I tell you, if you are truly serious, you should either be an apprentice to a scholar or enroll in a school and take a course.. some things you can't be self-taught in..
you can't do organic chemistry lab sitting on your computer, and you can't be a scholar in theology by frequenting a board!
cheers
you can't do organic chemistry lab sitting on your computer, and you can't be a scholar in theology by frequenting a board!
cheers
barney
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Hmm, I always like to self teach. I taught myself how to strip down and rebuild a motorbike by looking at the manual and using logic and common sense. You get a better feel for mechanics that way, by trial and error and failure and success. I did read Zen and the art of motorbike maintainace which applied Zen bhuddism to reboring cylinder heads. That helped a lot.
Cheers for the advice though.
Cheers for the advice though.
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I gave you a specific example of when you can't be self taught.. I am in favor of being self-taught.. you just simply can't do it for everything.. sometimes you have to concede that someone else is better than you and can teach you how to do it the right way..
cheers
cheers
barney
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Back to the thread i suppose.
What would constitute a vision.
Visually seeing a manifestation and hearing a voice that nobody else can hear, that specifically claims to be a angel or a prophet?
Does this vision have to be whilst awake.
Mohammed saw his Visions of the nights journey whilst asleep. Paul saw his whilst awake and kicking a donkey, requiring god to clear his eyes to allow him to see what the donkey saw.
I work in mental health. I talk to people every day who hear voices and see things. Mostly they are things like "MI5 is hunting you" or similar, but they ascribe these voices to either technology (radio waves transmitted into their heads), God (warning them or chooseing them for a purpose or task) or Demons (out to get them).
How can a Vision be defined as seperate from mental illness?
What would constitute a vision.
Visually seeing a manifestation and hearing a voice that nobody else can hear, that specifically claims to be a angel or a prophet?
Does this vision have to be whilst awake.
Mohammed saw his Visions of the nights journey whilst asleep. Paul saw his whilst awake and kicking a donkey, requiring god to clear his eyes to allow him to see what the donkey saw.
I work in mental health. I talk to people every day who hear voices and see things. Mostly they are things like "MI5 is hunting you" or similar, but they ascribe these voices to either technology (radio waves transmitted into their heads), God (warning them or chooseing them for a purpose or task) or Demons (out to get them).
How can a Vision be defined as seperate from mental illness?
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What if the experience does the opposite and it prompts you to question the religion you are most comfortable or familiar with, to search another religion, and to find what you believe to be the truth there?
Yes, specially if I had the feeling that the person is genuine.
As I said there is a chance that a person may embrace the right religion, and I would think that the person had done so, but I would work with the person and show him other reasons for being a Muslim, so as to have solid foundation. This is something which I have/would talk to someone who would approach me to become a Muslim.
I applaud you for refering to Jesus Christ
Yes it is relative, we all think something is true.
Visions of what kind, because Visions can be like nightmares and if the individuals were not comfortable with these visions then by all means jump in and help
What if these visions made the people comfortable, but you felt they were wrong, would you jump in and help?
I like your analogy
But there are also some scenarios which are delicate, its abit like... parents, raising their child to adulthood.. and then when its time to Marry, the parents may advise the Son/Daughter to Marry someone of their liking because they have far more life experience than the Son/Daughter does.. so they know people better. But if the Son/Daughter has already fallen in love with someone else, no matter what the parents might say, he/she will be likley to marry whom they love.
All the parents can do is pray to God and ask that he show the new couple the right path.
Just as perhaps if we think someone is not right.. The person who you might tell that their vision is wrong, may not like your opinion in the first place and go ahead and convert anyway... all you could do is pray that God keep them safe and offer them guidance...
Jesus done this as u said, he was one with much wisdom and knowledge, since he is not here no more, all we can do is pray to God and ask him to bless those who we think have chosen the wrong path, because our opinions may not matter to them in the first place.
Exactly, we have to assess the situation. That is what I called for.
That is good in my understanding, but if you only question it because you are brought up in that religion and don't question others than that's starting with a bias. Like saying 'I've been brought up x I'll question it and if it doesnt fit I will become y' To pick another religion because one is false isn't the best of choices.
Like for me, I had two decisions, one to leave Christianity, two to embrace Islam. Leaving Christianity did not entail embracing Islam.
glo
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I was thinking if the experience somebody had clearly contradicted their previous religion, and then led that person to have cause to question their existing faith.
In your time as a Christian there must have been a moment when your old beliefs did not seem right anymore.
Now, that may not have been a 'Paulian road to Damaskus'-type conversion experience, that may just have been something you heard or read ... but something that caused you to doubt anyway ...
You then had a choice.
Either to believe that this was Satan trying to deceive you, and therefore to try and put your doubts aside and fight them.
Or to give in to your doubts and change your beliefs (which, as you said, first meant you stopped being a Christian, and (at some point sooner or later) you reverted to Islam).
Those are the choices people of all faiths and none may be faced with from time to time - and they choose (as is their God-given right) according to their own free will.
Your reversion, which you yourself and other Muslims greeted as a wonderful thing and the only right choice, your mother fretted and worried over, because she felt you were making a serious mistake.
The same happens in reverse to all those who convert from Islam to Christianity - or, for that matter, from any one religion to another ...
Like the Psalm verse in my signature says, let's pray that God will guide us to live lives which are pleasing to him ... and that we will have the wisdom to listen to his guidance.
Peace