What's with the sudden outbreak of Jesus Visions?

[Umar001]

I was thinking if the experience somebody had clearly contradicted their previous religion, and then led that person to have cause to question their existing faith.

In your time as a Christian there must have been a moment when your old beliefs did not seem right anymore.
Now, that may not have been a 'Paulian road to Damaskus'-type conversion experience, that may just have been something you heard or read ... but something that caused you to doubt anyway ...

You then had a choice.
Either to believe that this was Satan trying to deceive you, and therefore to try and put your doubts aside and fight them.
Or to give in to your doubts and change your beliefs (which, as you said, first meant you stopped being a Christian, and (at some point sooner or later) you reverted to Islam).

Those are the choices people of all faiths and none may be faced with from time to time - and they choose (as is their God-given right) according to their own free will.

Your reversion, which you yourself and other Muslims greeted as a wonderful thing and the only right choice, your mother fretted and worried over, because she felt you were making a serious mistake.

The same happens in reverse to all those who convert from Islam to Christianity - or, for that matter, from any one religion to another ...

Like the Psalm verse in my signature says, let's pray that God will guide us to live lives which are pleasing to him ... and that we will have the wisdom to listen to his guidance.

Peace

No no, that is not what I was talking about, the two choices you had are not the choices.

An experience of something supernatural or near death may be followed by a choice:

1.Practice my religion more.
2.Start practicin a religion and chosing the one I am most familiarwith
3.Search for a religion

And so forth.

Now, what you speak of is totally different, because as you stated its about reading information and so forth.

This is different because the former is an experience which could have many influences, origins, where as the latter is a journey based, as much as possible, on being objective and seeking God's justice, i.e. making the path clear.

Now, some people have an experience and then dont do the journey part, they just end up taking the experience and then running to their previous faith or faith they are familiar with, or some just any religion. That's not right in my view. But if you have an experience and that leads you to start a journey then that's good.

Erm am gonna stop now cos am gonna get confused.

 

[جوري]

Do people even know what Jesus looks like?
He always seems to look like a confused hippie who got lost on his way to Woodstock..
Then of course there is the black and Hispanic, Greek and Russian version of him-- never chinese which explains why they are best governed by a fellow like Xedong...

Hilarious

 

[glo]

Do people even know what Jesus looks like?
He always seems to look like a confused hippie who got lost on his way to Woodstock..
Then of course there is the black and Hispanic, Greek and Russian version of him-- never chinese which explains why they are best governed by a fellow like Xedong...

Hilarious

That made me laugh, Skye.

I am imagining Jesus appearing to you, and you saying "You are JESUS?? You don't look like Jesus, you know ...!"

But seriously, when Jesus called his disciples according to the gospels, they just stopped what they were doing and followed him.
I believe the same still applies today.
If Jesus calls you to follow him, you'd be a fool to turn him away! And you won't stop to wonder what he looks like ... (Just my own opinion, of course.)

Peace

 

[جوري]

That made me laugh, Skye.

I am imagining Jesus appearing to you, and you saying "You are JESUS?? You don't look like Jesus, you know ...!"

But seriously, when Jesus called his disciples according to the gospels, they just stopped what they were doing and followed him.
I believe the same still applies today.
If Jesus calls you to follow him, you'd be a fool to turn him away! And you won't stop to wonder what he looks like ... (Just my own opinion, of course.)

Peace

I am glad you said that, because in fact there is an interesting story about a man who answered the call os Jesus (p) which I wrote of under the Muslim convert thread..
and here it is

This is the honest truth to God story of a man who loved Jesus.... I was told this story by a Puerto Rican lady who knew the man personally and as a result reverted herself...

J*** was a devout catholic... After 911 he used to throw the local mosque in his part of NJ with tomatoes and other items and harass the local worshippers. They used to avoid getting into confrontations with him as he was zealous and loved a good fight... No one wanted to get on his bad side...
He had some affliction since childhood, though I am not sure of what nature... most likely a congenital cardiac anomaly... as a result he was not feeling very well toward the last few weeks of his life and he'd pray to Jesus every night as he loved him so very much...

One night Jesus came to him in a dream and said "say Mohammedi" J*** really didn't understand... so Jesus(PBUH) asked him to repeat it again "Mohammedi" and one final time before he left (Mohammedi) ... I found it strange I am not sure why he didn't say Mohammed instead of Mohammedi?... but that is how the story was told to me ....I digress... J*** woke up in a cold sweat and was restless for the remainder of the night.....

The next morning he headed toward that local Mosque, and people were expecting trouble from him, but he asked to see the Imam, and told him "I wish to convert RIGHT NOW"... the Imam asked him a few questions but J*** really wanted to convert first and right away... He took his shahada, then told the Imam the story. Later he joined the rest for Isha prayer, and while he was sajid I swear to God this is a true story... his life left him.... he died on the prayer rug........

When I heard that story from sister B***** I was startled and didn't want to believe it. It seemed unusual .... but, She herself was a catholic before, and now is Muslims, she divorced her old husband, married a new one... Sobhan Allah..... I am seeing such a rise in conversion in the Hispanic community...... All I can say is
Allahu Akbar
________________

http://www.islamicboard.com/new-mus...im-reverts-post-yours-here-13.html#post510681

cheers

 

[glo]

What would constitute a vision.
Visually seeing a manifestation and hearing a voice that nobody else can hear, that specifically claims to be a angel or a prophet?
Does this vision have to be whilst awake.

People are drawn to God in different ways.
Some people claim to have had visions of some kind.
Some claim to hear the voice of God.
Others may find rubber ducks in unexpected places. :giggling:

In my experience though, most people do not claim to have had such experiences.
More often it is something they hear or read ... and something just 'clicks into place'. That experience, I believe, is quite common when you read people conversion stories (This applies to converts to all religions, not just Christians ones. Just look at reversion stories here in LI.)
It is describes as 'the scales falling from ones eyes' or 'suddenly seeing the light' or just 'suddenly having a sense of truth/peace/calm'.

Whatever it is that causes such a thing, most converts will be sure that it was g/God(s) who caused it (- except for converts to atheism, who will claim it was their own intellect).

As somebody who works in the field of mental health, you will probably agree that any experience that causes a person to suddenly and quite dramatically change their beliefs and/or attitudes and behaviours, must be quite a powerful one!
Could it be God?

Purely from mental health point of view, what kind of things, in your experience, could be the cause? Intoxication? Severe stress? Brain trauma?

I work in mental health. I talk to people every day who hear voices and see things. Mostly they are things like "MI5 is hunting you" or similar, but they ascribe these voices to either technology (radio waves transmitted into their heads), God (warning them or chooseing them for a purpose or task) or Demons (out to get them).
How can a Vision be defined as seperate from mental illness?

I have a friend who is a mental health nurse and a born-again Christian. Next time I see him I will try to remember to ask him his opinion on how to discern whether a voice is from God or caused by a mental illness.

Have a good evening, Barney.

 

[glo]

I am glad you said that, because in fact there is an interesting story about a man who answered the call os Jesus (p) which I wrote of under the Muslim convert thread..
and here it is

http://www.islamicboard.com/new-mus...im-reverts-post-yours-here-13.html#post510681

cheers

How can Jesus appear to him in a dream, if Jesus was a just a man, and is long dead ...? Is he, like a ghost? :?
On the same basis, does Muhammed appear to people as a vision?

P.S. Since you were questioning what Jesus looks like, you should ask this guy ... he knows!

 

[Whatsthepoint]

Do people even know what Jesus looks like?
He always seems to look like a confused hippie who got lost on his way to Woodstock..
Then of course there is the black and Hispanic, Greek and Russian version of him-- never chinese which explains why they are best governed by a fellow like Xedong...

Hilarious

hehe, take look at these. Not exactly chinese but I think the samurai version will do the trick.

 

[glo]

^ He'll never get into Woodstock!

 

[جوري]

How can Jesus appear to him in a dream, if Jesus was a just a man, and is long dead ...? Is he, like a ghost? :?

What is your question?

On the same basis, does Muhammed appear to people as a vision?

Again, I am not sure what you mean..

P.S. Since you were questioning what Jesus looks like, you should ask this guy ... he knows!

He has passed away, did you not read the story?

cheers

 

[جوري]

hehe, take look at these. Not exactly chinese but I think the samurai version will do the trick.

Got to love those Japs!

cheers

 

[glo]

What is your question?

My question is, how can you have a vision of somebody who is dead?
My only possible explanation would be that it must be a ghost, or that some magic is involved ...
Perhaps Islam has an answer to this, but to me the concept of a dead person appearing as a vision sounds very suspect ...

Again, I am not sure what you mean..

The man in your story became a Muslim because he had a alleged vision of Jesus.
Do you know of any accounts of people having Muhammed appear to them in a vision?

I am asking because, according to Islam, both Jesus and Muhammed are humans and prophets of God.
So do both have a similar ability/power to appear as a vision ... :?
If Jesus can (although I don't know how a dead person can appear as a vision - see above), then Muhammed can too - or not? :?

He has passed away, did you not read the story?

Got me! :-[
I didn't read it as carefully as I could have.
So we still don't know what he looks like ...

Salaam

 

[جوري]

My question is, how can you have a vision of somebody who is dead?
My only possible explanation would be that it must be a ghost, or that some magic is involved ...
Perhaps Islam has an answer to this, but to me the concept of a dead person appearing as a vision sounds very suspect ...

Jesus PBUH isn't dead according to Islam.. other than that I am not sure what you are talking about? I suspect you didn't read or didn't understand the story!

The man in your story became a Muslim because he had a alleged vision of Jesus.
Do you know of any accounts of people having Muhammed appear to them in a vision?

Many people have had dreams of Prophet Mohammed SAS, my dad is one, shortly before the war of 73.. why do you ask?

I am asking because, according to Islam, both Jesus and Muhammed are humans and prophets of God.
So do both have a similar ability/power to appear as a vision ... :?
If Jesus can (although I don't know how a dead person can appear as a vision - see above), then Muhammed can too - or not? :?

The man was a catholic who loved Jesus.. it makes sense to me that Jesus would appear to him to guide him unto the path of the righteous right before he died as he was genuinely a good person! You can have a dream of any of God's prophets in Islam, it isn't prohibited to just one ..
Jesus is God to you, he isn't to us.. thus I question the logic of what God looks like and how you can tell if it is your God from an impostor? To me Allah SWT is above description and beyond human form thus couldn't appear to anyone in a dream!

Got me! :-[
I didn't read it as carefully as I could have.
So we still don't know what he looks like ...

Salaam

What he looks like seems orthogonal in the scheme of this story don't you think?

cheers

 

[barney]

People are drawn to God in different ways.
Some people claim to have had visions of some kind.
Some claim to hear the voice of God.
Others may find rubber ducks in unexpected places. :giggling:

In my experience though, most people do not claim to have had such experiences.
More often it is something they hear or read ... and something just 'clicks into place'. That experience, I believe, is quite common when you read people conversion stories (This applies to converts to all religions, not just Christians ones. Just look at reversion stories here in LI.)
It is describes as 'the scales falling from ones eyes' or 'suddenly seeing the light' or just 'suddenly having a sense of truth/peace/calm'.

Whatever it is that causes such a thing, most converts will be sure that it was g/God(s) who caused it (- except for converts to atheism, who will claim it was their own intellect).

As somebody who works in the field of mental health, you will probably agree that any experience that causes a person to suddenly and quite dramatically change their beliefs and/or attitudes and behaviours, must be quite a powerful one!
Could it be God?

Purely from mental health point of view, what kind of things, in your experience, could be the cause? Intoxication? Severe stress? Brain trauma?

I have a friend who is a mental health nurse and a born-again Christian. Next time I see him I will try to remember to ask him his opinion on how to discern whether a voice is from God or caused by a mental illness.

Have a good evening, Barney.

It could be God.
Hence the tag Aggy and not Athy in my profile.

What kind of things can be the cause of Visual Hallucinations?
Schizophrenia
Drug Induced Psychotic Episodes (Jean de Arc)
Affective Psychosis
Alcohol and Drug withdrawal effects.
Certain Medications and Illicit substances
Head Trauma
Organic illnesses such as atrophy of the brain.
Extreme states of stress and duress.

How would I filter mental illness from a communication with a omnipotent deity?
First I have to say, my basis is that it is a mental illness. Because all the above are proven and recorded medical facts and Visions are not.

I would look at what the Vision was. If it was Jesus looking like the pictures and wearing a halo, I'd be more skeptical. The Halo is an ancient pagan symbol hijacked by todays montheists, The classic long flowing hair and beard, perhaps thats in tune with what his earthly form looked like.

What is he saying? "My beloved child, follow me, I have a task for you,....go to Darfour and give aid to the people there" Thats pretty much in touch with my expectations of a vision. (Although personally, given that , I would say back to him, "Hey , sure, but could you depose their government, set up stability and dump two hundred thousand fish and loaves onto the refugee camp to help out?")

If the Vision or voice says "we are watching you...be careful....we have you bugged" It's going to be more of a clear-cut Auditory Hallucination, as is "Kill your son on an alter and burn him as a sacrifice to me"

 

[aamirsaab]

If you've heard about it on the internet, it's probably nothing more than horsecrap.

 

[glo]

Hi Skye

I think I understand now why we don't seem to understand each other's posts.

I am talking about visions - as in 'the mystical experience of seeing as if with the eyes the supernatural or a supernatural being' (see American Heritage Dictionary)
You seem to be talking about dreams - as in 'a series of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations occurring involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep' (see same dictionary)

My point was that (in my mind, at least) a dead person cannot appear to somebody in a vision ...

What he looks like seems orthogonal in the scheme of this story don't you think?

I agree.
I was only pulling your leg. :-[ Remember, you were the one posting the question how people knew what Jesus looked like ...

Personally, I think what he looked like is entirely extraneous.

Peace

 

[glo]

Jesus PBUH isn't dead according to Islam.. other than that I am not sure what you are talking about? I suspect you didn't read or didn't understand the story!

I missed that bit earlier.

Can you explain this further, please? In what sense is Jesus not dead?
In the sense that he is in the afterlife, as all human beings are after their physical death?
Or does he have a special status due to being a prophet?

(What I mean is this. If Jesus can appear to people as a vision (bear in mind that I am talking about a vision, not a dream (see above post) - and I am saying 'if' because we haven't actually clarifies yet as to whether, according to Islam, Jesus could appear as a vision, rather than in a dream), then can all deceased humans appear to their living relatives as visions?
Or just 'special people', such as prophets?

(Please be patient with me, Skye. I am not trying to be funny or difficult ... I am genuinely asking. )

 

[جوري]

Hi Skye

I think I understand now why we don't seem to understand each other's posts.

I am talking about visions - as in 'the mystical experience of seeing as if with the eyes the supernatural or a supernatural being' (see American Heritage Dictionary)
You seem to be talking about dreams - as in 'a series of images, ideas, emotions, and sensations occurring involuntarily in the mind during certain stages of sleep' (see same dictionary)

My point was that (in my mind, at least) a dead person cannot appear to somebody in a vision ...

Who is dead here? and you can have a vision in dream form ( I thought that is where most visions happen?) unless one is delusional?... Jesus (p) isn't dead he was risen, the death of God is part of christian mythology and has no bearing in Islam..

I agree.
I was only pulling your leg. :-[ Remember, you were the one posting the question how people knew what Jesus looked like ...

Personally, I think what he looked like is entirely extraneous.

Peace

You need not 'see' a person in a dream to have the notion evoked that it is them.. I can hav a dream about my dead grandmother and she would look nothing like I remember but still experience and know her vividly...

a different concept though from what 'God' looks like.. anthropomorphism represents God with human traits, thus I wonder how you can tell it is God? There is none like him according to Islam [ 112:1-4] Proclaim, "He is the One and only GOD. "The Absolute GOD."Never did He beget. Nor was He begotten.And there is none like unto Him!"
Qur'an:

Makes me wonder whom the 'visions' are actually of..

given all this, I should state and this is my personal opinion.. there are no such thing as visions.. just sick people with delusions..

having dreams can be prophetic I have personally had many dreams that happened ( I can't explain them nor care to defend them).. but if you are awake and seeing God or his mother, or his son or his spirit, chances are you are suffering a mental illness...
cheers

 

[جوري]

I missed that bit earlier.

Can you explain this further, please? In what sense is Jesus not dead?
In the sense that he is in the afterlife, as all human beings are after their physical death?
Or does he have a special status due to being a prophet?

He ascended (not crucified) to return, fulfil his prophecies have a wife and die like men do!

(What I mean is this. If Jesus can appear to people as a vision (bear in mind that I am talking about a vision, not a dream (see above post) - and I am saying 'if' because we haven't actually clarifies yet as to whether, according to Islam, Jesus could appear as a vision, rather than in a dream), then can all deceased humans appear to their living relatives as visions?
Or just 'special people', such as prophets?

visions only occur in dreams... I believe people very strong in faith have dreams that happen as it is described as being 1/40th of prophethood... in other words prophets had special gifts ( don't ask me to list all forty) having dreams (like Joseph) is one of them with meaning and significance if you are able to interpret them...

(Please be patient with me, Skye. I am not trying to be funny or difficult ... I am genuinely asking. )

peace

 

[glo]

Who is dead here? and you can have a vision in dream form ( I thought that is where most visions happen?) unless one is delusional?... Jesus (p) isn't dead he was risen, the death of God is part of christian mythology and has no bearing in Islam..

According to Islam he never died? (How come I have spent so long in an Islamic forum, and haven't come across this yet ... :?)
Edit: Sorry, our posts are crossing now. I have read your second post with regards to this now. Thank you!

You need not 'see' a person in a dream to have the notion evoked that it is them.. I can hav a dream about my dead grandmother and she would look nothing like I remember but still experience and know her vividly...

Yes, that's where a dream is different from a vision ...

given all this, I should state and this is my personal opinion.. there are no such thing as visions.. just sick people with delusions..

At least I feel I have an answer to my question.
Thank you

having dreams can be prophetic I have personally had many dreams that happened ( I can't explain them nor care to defend them).. but if you are awake and seeing God or his mother, or his son or his spirit, chances are you are suffering a mental illness...

I see you are in agreement with barney then. Must be a first!

Actually, the more I think about it the more it doesn't make sense that according to Islam God should allow visions ... after all, images of God and his prophets are fobidden. (Am I right in thinking so? Everything I have ever learned about Islam seems to escape me lately ...)

Can I ask why you are not asleep, dear sister?

Peace

 

[Nσσя'υℓ Jαииαн]

It's been mentioned many times on the forum, that Isa(as), or Jesus, didn't die.

Btw, if I'm not mistaken, images or statues of any sort are also forbidden in Christianity...

Peace