Whats wrong with Palestine?

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Ahslan: I do not mean to antagonise you but feel some things you say need addressing. You speak of Bet'l'chem. You say Jesus was born there. Was Jesus "Palestinian? Is the name Bet'l'chem not Hebrew in origin (house of bread)?

You speak of being cut off from Jerusalem. Had "Palestinians" even once accpeted statehgood in the many times it has been offered from 1919 onward, you would have free access. As it is, you can still get there. When Arabs ruled it we could not. Our holiest of holies was literally used as an outhouse and piggery by the Jordanians. Now all who come in peace may dwell in peace, as the Yebusi who named the city once intended (tent of peace).

You speak of unsubstaniated reports of torture in Israeli prisons. do you even realise that Israel allows inspections of its prisons. If you are, as you claim, "Palestinian," then you of course know Israel also allows prisoners' families to visit.

Tell me, how many Arabs are incarcerated in PA or HAMAS prisons for crimes against either Israelis or Jews? Know how many Israeli Jews sit in prison today for crimes such as simply suggesting all Arabs should be kept out of our land? Slightly less thasn 500. Bit of a double standard I think. See, those Arab prisoners almost always would not be in Israeli prisons had Arabs policed them.

Something to think about.
 
welcome aboard Rach.

A Crash Course in the Real Facts

Israel's supporters in this country have been flooding the Internet with what they call A Crash Course in the Real Facts. It consists of 20 points, all misleading in the way they are written. A point by point rebuttal follows...

NATIONHOOD AND JERUSALEM

1. Israel became a nation in 1312 B.C.E., two thousand years before the rise of Islam.
The use of the word “nation” is ambiguous unless it is defined. It is confusing and misleading to use a modern notion and apply it to what happened in 1312 BC. This is how Black’s Law Dictionary defines the word "nation":

“a people, or aggregation of men, existing in the form of an organized jural society, usually inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth, speaking the same language, using the same customs, possessing historic continuity, and distinguished from other like groups by their racial origin and characteristics, and generally, but not necessarily, living under the same government and sovereignty.”
According to this definition Israel became a nation once it became an independent kingdom in 1011 BC (King David 1011-971 BC; and King Solomon 971-931 BC). In 931 BC, the kingdom was divided in two: Israel in the north, (capital Samaria) from 931 to 722 BC; and Judah in the south (capital Jerusalem) from 931 to 587 BC.
Samaria fell to Assyria in 722 BC and a large portion of the population was deported. This kingdom lasted for 209 years.
Jerusalem fell to the Babylonians in 587 BC and the cream of the population was deported. This kingdom lasted for 344 year.
The total number of years during which Israel was a "nation", even if we take into consideration the small Kingdom of Judah is 424 years. Outside this period Israel was more of a religion than a nation.
The Pittsburgh Platform of 1885 was issued by a group of reform rabbis. It stated: “we consider ourselves no longer a nation but a religious community" (see full text of Pittsburg Platform ).
Furthermore, a letter dated April 20, 1964, from Assistant Secretary of State Phillips Talbot to Rabbi Elmer Berger stated: the State Department "does not recognize a legal-political relationship based upon religious identification of American citizens ... it should be clear that the Department of State does not regard the Jewish people concept as a concept of international law" (see full text of the letter ).
Israel ceased to be a nation in 587 BC. It became a nation again in AD 1948. According to the definition given in Black’s Law Dictionary Jews who are not Israelis do not belong to the Israeli nation, they belong the Jewish faith like their coreligionists in Israel.
2. Arab refugees in Israel began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967, two decades after the establishment of the Modern State of Israel.
First, there are no Arab refugees in Israel, unless the writer has already annexed the Occupied Territories, Jordan, Syria and Lebanon to Israel.
The problem of the Palestinian refugees, that the writer calls “Arab” refugees to confuse the reader and avoid using the word Palestinian, started from the moment Israel was established in 1948, since some 700,000 Palestinians were expelled from their homes and their homeland and were not allowed to return. There is even a UN resolution that deal with the Palestinian refugees. It is General Assembly resolution 194 of 11 December 1948. The resolution deals explicitly, among other things, with the return of the Palestinian refugees to their homes.
Whether the "Arab" refugees began identifying themselves as part of a Palestinian people in 1967 or not is irrelevant. The fact is that there is today a universal aknowledgment that there is a Palestinian people, even Israel acknowledges this fact. To deny it won't solve the problem of Israel.


3. Since the Jewish conquest in 1272 B.C.E. the Jews have had dominion over the land for one thousand years with a continuous presence in the land for the past 3,300 years.
What is said in No. 1 above is relevant here. I detect a contradiction between what is said in 1 above and what is being said here. How can Israel be considered a nation in 1312 BC (see No. 1 above) when the "Jewish conquest" of the land of Canaan occurred later in 1272 BC?
There can be no nation without “inhabiting a distinct portion of the earth,” according to the definition. The continuous presence in the land, if we accept it for the sake of argument, was a presence of the Jews as individuals not as a nation. Following the first revolt, the Romans destroyed the Temple in AD 70. After the second revolt (AD 132-135), the Jews were either killed or sold into slavery and dispersed in the Roman Empire. Emperor Hadrian built a temple in honor of Jupiter on the site of the Jewish temple and issued a decree that prohibited under penalty of death the presence of the Jews in Jerusalem. The prohibition was lifted after the Muslim Arab conquest.

4. The only Arab dominion since the conquest in 635 C.E. lasted no more than 22 years.
In 638, not 635, Jerusalem and Palestine, were conquered by the Muslim Arabs. The Muslim rule lasted from 638 to 1099, from 1187 to 1229 and from 1239 to 1917 which is the year Jerusalem fell to General Allenby. In the interim periods, that is from 1099 to 1187 and from 1229 to 1239 the Crusaders established the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem. The total number of years Muslims ruled Jerusalem and Palestine is 1,181 years not 22. The writer was off the mark by just 1,159 years. It should be mentioned that before the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after World War One, there was only one dominion, Muslim dominion. Speaking of Arab dominion is misleading.

5. For over 3,300 years, Jerusalem has been the Jewish capital. Jerusalem has never been the capital of any Arab or Muslim entity. Even when the Jordanians occupied Jerusalem, they never sought to make it their capital, and Arab leaders did not come to visit.
Jerusalem was a Jewish capital for no more than 424 years (see No. 1 above). In fact, Jerusalem was a meaningful capital only when the kingdom established by David was unified, that is from 1011 BC to 931 BC, or 80 years. The fact that Jerusalem was never a capital of any Arab or Muslim entity doesn't make it less of an Arab city. San Antonio has never been the capital of the United States. Does this mean that it is a Mexican city?

6. Jerusalem is mentioned over 700 times in Tanach, the Jewish Holy Scriptures. Jerusalem is not mentioned once in the Koran.
What does this suppose to mean? What is the conclusion that must be drawn from this statement? How about counting the number of times Jerusalem was mentioned in the New Testament?

7. King David founded the city of Jerusalem. Mohammed never came to Jerusalem.
The answer given in 6 above is relevant here. Again, what about Jesus? In their profession of faith, Christians say at every mass: “for our sake he (Jesus Christ) was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, died and was buried. On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures." These events didn't happen in Paris or New York but in Jerusalem.

8. Jews pray facing Jerusalem. Muslims pray with their backs toward Jerusalem.
Another incongruous statement. What are we supposed to make of it? The issue is not a religious one, as the author is trying to establish from points 5 to 8 . It is an issue of self-determination of a disenfranchised indigenous people. Also, the writer is presenting the issue as if it is an issue between the Jews and the Muslims ignoring the fact that the Arab Christians in the Middle East outnumber the Jews of Israel and the billion Christians in the world outnumber the 14 million Jews. The fact also is that Christianity has more holy sites in Jerusalem than Judaism and Islam combined. The Church of the Holy Sepulcher, the holiest place in Christianity, is in Jerusalem. If the issue is a religious one, then the Christians' claim is stronger than that of the Jews or the Muslims.


ARAB AND JEWISH REFUGEES

9. In 1948 the Arab refugees were encouraged to leave Israel by Arab leaders promising to purge the land of Jews. Sixty-eight percent left without ever seeing an Israeli soldier.
Simha Flapan in his book, The Birth of Israel: Myths and Realities, refers to the terrorists methods used by the Haganah, Irgun and LEHI to force the Palestinians out of their homeland. Flapan estimated that “84 percent (of the Palestinians) left in direct response to Israeli actions.” The Irish journalist, Erskine Childers, examined the American and the British radio-monitoring records for all 1948. In his article "The Other Exodus" that appeared in the (London) Spectator of May 12, 1961, he wrote the following: "There was not a single order, or appeal, or suggestion about evacuation from Palestine from any Arab radio station, inside or outside Palestine, in 1948. There is repeated monitored record of Arab appeals, even flat orders, to the civilians of Palestine to stay put." (see the full text ).

10. The Jewish refugees were forced to flee from Arab lands due to Arab brutality, persecution and pogroms.
The Jews were forced to flee the Arab countries not because of Arab brutality but because of Jewish brutality. Akiva Orr in his book Israel: Politics, Myths and Identity Crises wrote the following: “in 1948 Jews were not expelled from countries like Iraq, Morocco, Algeria, Tunisia and Libya, but induced to leave by Zionist emissaries from Israel who often used dirty tricks like throwing bombs into synagogues to create the impression of anti-Jewish persecution to stampede the Jews to Israel.” Once in Israel, some of the Iraqi Jews have even sued the Israeli government for damages. Also, Wilbur Crane Evenlan, a former senior officer in the Central Intelligence Agency (CIA) wrote in his 1980 book Ropes of Sand: America's Failure in the Middle East:

"In attempts to portray the Iraqis as ani-American and to terrorize the Jews, the Zionists planted bombs in the U.S. Information Service library and in synagogues. Soon leaflets began to appear urging Jews to flee to Israel. ... Although the Iraqi police later provided our embassy with evidence to show that the synagogue and library bombings as well as the anti-Jewish and anti-American leaflet campaings had been the work of an underground Zionist organization, most of the world believed reports that Arab terrorism had motivated the flight of the Iraqi Jews whom the Zionists had "rescued" really just in order to increase Israel's Jewish population." (pp. 48-49)
For a first-hand account by an eyewitness, read Naeim Giladi's testimony in The Link of April-May 1998, published by the Americans for Middle East Understanding, Inc. Read The Jews of Iraq .
11. The number of Arab refugees who left Israel in 1948 is estimated to be around 630,000. The number of Jewish refugees from Arab lands is estimated to be the same.
Again the Palestinian refugees, (not Arab refugees) who left Israel in 1948 did not leave Palestine voluntarily but were driven out by the Jewish terrorist organizations (see 9 above). On the other hand, the Jewish “refugees” left voluntarily or induced to leave from their Arab homelands (see No. 10 above).

12. Arab refugees were INTENTIONALLY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands to which they fled, despite the vast Arab territory. Out of the 100,000,000 refugees since World War II, theirs is the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples' lands. Jewish refugees were completely absorbed into Israel, a country no larger than the state of New Jersey.
Should we show our appreciation to the writer for his concern about the Palestinian refugees who were “INTENTIONALY not absorbed or integrated into the Arab lands?” The writer is lamenting the fact that the Palestinians are “the only refugee group in the world that has never been absorbed or integrated into their own peoples’ lands.” Well, their land is Palestine. I am all for their return to their land. The writer wants the Palestinian refugees to be absorbed in the Arab lands. This is exactly how criminals think. They want to remove any trace of the crime they have committed; then they can delude themselves that they have a clear conscience.


THE ARAB-ISRAELI CONFLICT

13. The Arabs are represented by eight separate nations, not including the Palestinians. There is only one Jewish nation. The Arab nations initiated all five wars and lost. Israel defended itself each time and won.
If the writer knew how to count he would have found out that there are 20 Arab states not 8. Whether there are 20 or 70 Arab states, Palestinians are entitled to live in their homeland. As far as the "five wars" intitiated by the Arabs: The first war was the 1948 war and was triggered by the establishment of Israel. The 1956 war was started by Israel with the help of France and Great Britain. The 1967 war was started by Israel. The 1973 war was launched by Egypt and Syria to liberate their occupied territories, not more. The 1982 war against Lebanon was started by Israel.

14. The P.L.O.'s Charter still calls for the destruction of the State of Israel. Israel has given the Palestinians most of the West Bank land, autonomy under the Palestinian Authority, and has supplied them with weapons.
The PLO Charter has been amended and all clauses calling for Israel’s destruction were cancelled. On April 24, 1996, the Palestine National Council voted 504 to 54 to cancel those clauses. Contrary to what is stated, Israel has NOT given the Palestinians most of the West Bank. The West Bank was divided into three zones: Area A fully controlled by the Palestinian Authority consists of 12%; Area B jointly controlled by Israel (security control) and the Palestinian Authority (civilian control) consists of 26.8%; and Area C totally controlled by Israel consists of 61.2%. Who then controls most of the West Bank? (see map )

15. Under Jordanian rule, Jewish holy sites were desecrated and the Jews were denied access to places of worship. Under Israeli rule, all Muslim and Christian sites have been preserved and made accessible to people of all faiths.
Under Jordanian rule Israel, the Jewish state, was officially at war with Jordan. Under the Israeli rule, Muslim and Christian Palestinians from the occupied territories are today denied access to places of worship. Those Muslims and Christians who have access to places of worship are Israeli citizens. Desecration of holy sites is done by fanatics. There is no shortage of them among Muslims, Christians and Jews.


THE U.N. RECORD ON ISRAEL AND THE ARABS

16. Of the 175 Security Council resolutions passed before 1990, 97 were directed against Israel.
That is because Israel was at fault 97 times.

17. Of the 690 General Assembly resolutions voted on before 1990, 429 were directed against Israel.
That is because Israel was at fault 429 times.

18. The U.N was silent while 58 Jerusalem Synagogues were destroyed by the Jordanians.
Why is it that Israel did not complain to the U.N.?

19. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians systematically desecrated the ancient Jewish cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
The U.N. is not a super government. Member states must take the initiative to complain or ask for a Security Council meeting to take up their complaints.

20. The U.N. was silent while the Jordanians enforced an apartheid-like policy of preventing Jews from visiting the Temple Mount and the Western Wall.
See answer given in No. 19.



These are incredible times. We have to ask what our role should be. What will we tell our grandchildren we did when there was a turning point in Jewish destiny, an opportunity to make a difference?
These are indeed incredible times. We should tell our grandchildren the truth.

For those of you who were kind and interested enough to read, the preceding, let me add two more items:

a) Israel is the ONLY MEMBER OF THE UN THAT IS NOT PERMITTED MEMBERSHIP ON THE SECURITY COUNCIL
For Israel to be a member of the Security Council it has to belong to one of the five following groups: Asian states, African states, Latin American and the Caribbean states, Eastern European states, and Western Europe and other states. If no one group wants to accept Israel as a member then there must be something wrong with Israel.
written by a U.N diplomat who is neither Jewish nor Muslim

http://www.users.cloud9.net/~recross/israel-watch/Facts.html
 
:sl:

The arguments are getting to be personal. Address only the topic, not the member.
No disrespect intended, bro. But your above statement has been rendered meaningless by certain Islamophobes. Since this has Just become a routine warning with no bite, by them.

As for me, Just so you and other mods are aware of my intentions, if I am attacked, disrespected or ridiculed, etc, I swear by Allah, I will retaliate.

As you and others have observed, I never initiated personal attacks. But, I do respond.

I reserve the right to defend myself, and no one can deny me that...
 
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No justice in Israeli peace plan

presented at Camp David by Ehud Barak





It has been repeatedly said, as Dean Ungar put it in his Aug. 16 letter, that “the Palestinians rejected the most sweeping peace proposal ever offered by an Israeli government.”

Israel and its supporters should understand that the peace proposal whether it was the most sweeping or not is not the issue. The issue is that of justice. The issue is that Israel should comply with UN resolutions. But this is the last thing Israel wants. “Justice” never crossed Barak’s mind in Camp David. “Justice” is never mentioned in his Op-Ed piece in the New York Times (July 30, 2001). As for complying with UN resolutions, Barak wrote that his offer “would have satisfied UN Security Council Resolution 242 and 338 as interpreted by the international community.” In his mind, the international community is probably made up of columnits like George Will, Cal Thomas or Charles Krauthammer.

Instead of just referring to this “offer” and characterizing it as “generous” or “unprecedented,” as some other apologists of Israel put it, it would have been more fitting that they tell us what this offer consisted of. But this is something they dare not do because it would expose its true nature: another form of occupation. Ed Krauss’s letter of Aug. 18 is a case in point.

First of all, this “most sweeping peace proposal” was never presented in writing, let alone accompanied with any maps. It was orally conveyed, which is a strange way of conducting serious negotiations.

Second, this “generous” offer consisted of dividing the West Bank into three separate cantons surrounded by Israel. So not only would the Palestinians have to cross Israel to go from the West Bank to Gaza, but also to go from one canton to another within the West Bank. Such an arrangement would have made the future Palestinian state less viable than the Bantustans created by the South African apartheid government. See map drawn up according to information from the Palestinian delegation. See map drawn up according to information from the Israeli delegation.

Third, according to this “unprecedented” offer, Israel would annex 9 percent of the West Bank in exchange of 1 percent of its own territory. In addition, it would control 10 percent of the West Bank in the form of a “long-term lease.” This area would mainly be located along the Jordan River, which meant that Israel would also control Palestine’s international borders. Furthermore, Israel “offered” to control the air space and the water resources of the new Palestinian state.

On the sensitive issue of the refugees, the proposal spoke only of a “satisfactory solution.” On East Jerusalem, the proposal allowed Palestinian sovereignty on isolated Palestinian neighborhoods, which meant that these neighborhoods would not only be separated from each other but also from the Palestinian state. As for the Haram al-Sharif, the Palestinians would only have custody over it.

By what measure can these proposals be considered fair? As Robert Malley, member of the American team in the Camp David summit, put it in his Op-Ed piece in the New York Times (July 8, 2001), “the measure of Israel’s concessions ought not be how far it has moved from its own starting point, but how far it has moved toward a fair solution.” Given the above, these proposals are anything but fair. They perpetuate the occupation, albeit under another form, they do not allow the establishment of a viable Palestinian state and they sow the seeds of another conflict.

Another point that is often made is that the Palestinians didn’t make any concessions. This is not true. The Palestinian made the ultimate compromise, which is to recognize Israeli sovereignty over 78 percent of historic Palestine. What the Israelis wanted them to do is to compromise the compromise, to compromise the remaining 22 percent. What the Palestinians could not have done was to compromise their fundamental rights and the establishment of a viable state.

Moreover, the Palestinians accepted that Israel annex parts of West Bank territories to accommodate the settlements in exchange of an equivalent amount of Israeli land. They accepted that Israel exercise sovereignty over Jerusalem’s Jewish quarter and the Wailing Wall. They accepted that refugees exercise their right of return in a way that would not affect Israel’s demographic and security interests. Barak, however, declared that Israel bore no responsibility for the refugee problem and its solution.

It is utterly wrong, misleading and unseemly to suggest that the Palestinians at Camp David kept saying “no” or did not present any concession. It is up to the Israelis, the party that holds all the cards, to decide whether they want a genuine peace based on justice or an indefinite conflict.

August 30, 2001
 
You speak of unsubstaniated reports of torture .



Humiliation and Child Abuse at Israeli Checkpoints
Strip-Searching Children


By ALISON WEIR


Israeli officials have been regularly strip-searching children for decades, some of them American citizens.

While organizations that focus on Israel-Palestine have long been aware that Israeli border officials regularly strip search men and women, If Americans Knew appears to be the first organization that has specifically investigated the policy of strip searching women. Israeli officials have also been strip searching young girls as young as seven and below.

According to interviews with women in the United States, Israel, the West Bank and Gaza, Israeli border officials periodically force Christian and Muslim females of all ages to remove their clothing and submit to searches. In some cases the children are then "felt" by Israeli officials.
Sometimes mothers and children are strip-searched together, at other times little girls are taken from their parents and strip-searched alone. Women are required to remove sanitary napkins, sometimes with small daughters at their side. Sometimes women are strip searched in the presence of their young sons.

All report deep feelings of humiliation. Many describe weeping at the degradation they felt.

The Israeli policy appears to target only Christian and Muslim children. There are no reports of Jewish children being strip-searched.

Israeli practices vary and seem to be applied randomly, from elderly women to small children. In some instances women are taken into a room alone and are left sitting naked for hours. At other times they are strip-searched in groups, their clothes thrown in a pile. When they are finally allowed to get dressed, they describe having to rummage through the heap of clothing, naked and barefoot, to find their own garments.



By ALISON WEIR

http://www.counterpunch.org/weir03152007.html



We have nothing to lose except everything.



We can easily ignore their suffering, cut them from their food, water, electricity, and medicine, confiscate their land, demolish their crops and deny them egress -- suffocate them, our voices stilled. Racism does not allow us to see Arabs as we see ourselves; that is why we rage when they do not fail from weakness but instead we find ourselves failing from strength. Yet, in our view it is we who are the only victims, vulnerable and scarred. All we have is the unnaturalness of our condition.

As an unconscious people, we have perhaps reached our nadir with many among us now calling for a redefinition of our ethics-the core of who we are -- to incorporate the need to kill women and children if Jewish security required it. "New realities do indeed require new responses," says the Rabbinical Council of America. Now, for us, violence is creation and peace is destruction.

Can we ever turn away from our power to destroy?


Sara Roy is Senior Research Scholar, Center for Middle Eastern Studie, Harvard University


http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cf...mp;ItemID=125





Israel Doesn't Want Peace



The moment of truth has arrived, and it has to be said: Israel does not want peace. The arsenal of excuses has run out, and the chorus of Israeli rejection already rings hollow. Until recently, it was still possible to accept the Israeli refrain that "there is no partner" for peace and that "the time isn't right" to deal with our enemies. Today, the new reality before our eyes leaves no room for doubt and the tired refrain that "Israel supports peace" has been left shattered.

By Gideon Levy


HAARETZ ( Israel daily)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/846420.html




Among the Palestinian prisoners there are prisoners who have come down with serious illnesses, and the vengeful Israeli system is refusing to release them. Family members of most of the prisoners have not been allowed to visit them for long periods. All of them are discriminated against in their conditions of imprisonment, as compared with the Jewish prisoners.


By Amira Hass

HAARETZ (Israel Daily)


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/847289.html





UK reporters union to boycott Israel


Britain's National Union of Journalists denounced Israel on Friday for its "military adventures" in Gaza and Lebanon, called on the government to impose sanctions and urged a boycott of Israeli goods.

By a vote of 66 to 54, the annual delegate's meeting of Britain's largest trade union for journalists called for "a boycott of Israeli goods similar to those boycotts in the struggles against apartheid South Africa led by trade unions, and [for] the [Trades Union Congress] to demand sanctions be imposed on Israel by the British government."


Jerusalem Post (Israel daily)


http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1176152792457&pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull




No life on the other side



In the last month alone, 546 roadblocks were counted, in addition to various procedures, magnetic cards, enclaves that non-Jews are prohibited from accessing and roads that only settlers are allowed to use - conditions that generate a frustrating uncertainty for the Palestinians.

The report reveals that, despite its commitment, Israel is continuing to make Palestinian movement difficult, is not prepared to open a passageway - no matter how well-secured - between the West Bank and Gaza, and in effect is blocking Palestinians from accessing some 50 percent of the West Bank. This canonization of the West Bank destroys the Palestinian economy's chance of recovering from its crisis.


HAARETZ (ISRAEL DAILY)


http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/857770.html




The Arabs will never forgive us




The Palestinians will never forgive us. Not only those who are alive today, but their children will despise us until their dying day, and theirs and theirs. They will revile us for having occupied them, exploited them, shelled them, and bombed them, and for having robbed them of their dignity and their land.



HAARETZ(ISRAEL DAILY)

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/858456.html
 
The birthday party that captured Israel's heart


Maria Amin, a chubby-faced Palestinian girl with gleaming brown eyes, celebrated her birthday yesterday like any pampered six year old. But Maria was no ordinary birthday girl. She came to the party in a wheelchair, which she navigates with her chin against a joystick. She was paralysed from the neck down in May last year when the car she was in was caught in an Israeli missile strike. Her mother, grandmother and older brother were killed.

She celebrated her birthday party in the Israeli Alyn hospital and rehabilitation centre for handicapped children, where she is hooked to the respirator she will need for the rest of her life.

Back in Gaza, the undeclared war goes on. Children are still paying a price. An Israeli shell killed two Palestinian boys and a girl near Beit Hanoun on Wednesday.


By Eric Silver in Jerusalem
Published: 31 August 2007


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/article2914415.ece
 
Ahsan: first, you have used the word Jew, although I can only say that youused it once as i have barely looked into your posting. You used it when describing true Jews as opposed to Zionists, and you referenced it when discussing how Jews, in your words see non_Jews, as you termed them "gentiles", as inferior. I politely ask you to specifically adress my comments in regards to your incorrect ASSMUPTION that Jews see themselves as superior for attaching the term "Chosen People" to themselves. Thank you ina dvance.

As both a Jew and a Zionist I fully understand the difference between Zionist and a Jew. Do you? For excample, the religious Jews you featured in your blurb about anti-Zionist Jews are in fact ZIONISTS. Modern Zionism is a distinct ideology that is separate from true Zionism. ALL religious Jews fully believe that Israel, and Gaza, and the "WB" for that matter ARE their homeland.

The differecne lies in timing. The Jews you chose to partly focus on are the Netueri Karta (Guardians of the City in Aramaic) and they believe that our homeland should not have been REestablished until the Messianic Advent. Interestingly, they are the closest any religiouws Jewish organised group comes to hating non-Jews as their strange belief dictates that any non-Jews not consumed in Judgement will then ebcome our slaves...Go figure...I find it funny that you lionise a group that waits to enslave you.

Amborisa: I liked your post but it is factually incorrect. We have had a continuous presence there for at least 4500 years according to archaeological science and have held dominion for more than 2000 years. the other dates on dominion refer to the monarchies, not tribal superiority in numbers and strength, as in demanding and receiving tribute,etc. We existed for many centuries with tribal chiefs holding sway, as in Judges, but the monarchy's lifespan was altogether brief in comparison.

As for Arab dominion, they have NEVER had an organic nation there, nor govt. They did rule it for 22 years (which to your credit you listed) as PART of the Khalifa beginning under Omar, but it was a backwater ill tended province, despite Omar having made Jerusalem the 3rd holiest Islamic site.

As for Jewish refugees fleeing Arab violence, etc. My own clan, Dwek (humla last centred in Aleppo,Syria) has been forced to flee in face of direct threat of extermination (my own paternal grandfather was annihilated) 3 times since 1830 CE/AD. Twice in what is now Israel/"WB," and once from Damascus. This does not incluse the fleeing in face of threats from Israel's REestablishment.
 
Amborisa: Re Barak's stand on UN Resolutions. almost all anti-Israeli Resolutions are authored by Arab states who not only for the most part officialy exist in a perpetual legal state of delcared war with Israel, but have to this day refused to reocgnise not only the fundamental Reo****ioon recognising Israel's Right to Exist, but have ignored its existence part and parcel.

If, you make a complain against me, for any reason, but have refused to even abide my the same system of legal declerations recognising my very existence, why would I EVER even consider even listening to your complaint, let alone obeying it!?!?

The Resolutions are not only silly for the most part, a great many directly threaten Israel's existence.

UN Resolutions are not legally bindable UNLESS they are Security Council authored and ratified. Even then they depend on large part to interpretation. Israel has no reason whatsoever to abide by any, when the fundamental one stating Israel exists is blatantly ignored. On Bantustans,etc..."Palestine" was NEVER,EVER enviosned as a contigous state. For that matter, neither was Israel. They were to be linked to each others confederated areas by one or all of several means. Hiways, covered hiways, tunnels, etc. all present completely viable manners.


Israel was able to create contigious linear delineations (as opposed to borders since borders cannot even be discussed in a roundabout way until Israel has a true and sicnere partner for neogtiations), through attrition in face of Arab aggression. Arabs attacked in 47-49, 53, 67 (although Israel acted proactively in respnse to illegal Egyptian manipulations of the UN Sinai contigents and Syrian and Jordanain tandem mobilisations), 73, and then throughout the mid to late 70s in War of Attrition,etc. These conflicts all ended with Israel victorious and so contigous lines became reality.

Arabs of course do not have many options in this regard since they lack statehood in "Palestine" due to their own trerrible decison making and aggression.

The continued usage of terms like "Apartheid" and "Bantustan" is not only incorrect in all manners, but bordering on criminal in the case of libelous nonsense. Israel has no racist policies whatsoever and has never engaged in any form of segreagtion. As for racial segregation, Jews and Arabs are not only of the same race, but the same and exact racial subgrouping! BOTH are Semites!
 
Ahsan: "Israelis strip search children." ALL nations do, so what? Is it that Israel has no reason to do so? Just yesterday a 14 year old tried to blow themself up and kill inncoent Israelis so that the policy has proven effectiveness. Funny you bring this up only hours after that 14 year old tried to do this.

In fact, the PA AND HAMAS do far worse but that is another story I suppose.

To suggest Israelis sexually molest children in official capacity is just criminal. I do not want to engage in ad home behavoir with you or any other person here. My goal is honest and fortright discourse but is is difficult when you engage in histronics. Please evaluate yourself and your comments.

"Prisoners of Israel." Funny again that even you admitted that family members are allowed visitation. More telling is the fact that PA and HAMAS prisoners are not even allowed that, not to mention International RC monitoring which Israel of course allows. Of course, had PA and HAMAS even offered cursory policing, we would not need tro incarcerate a single Arab. Sadly, to date, NOT ONE SINGLE ARAB has EVER been incarcerated by either PA or HAMAS fro crimes against either Israelis OR Jews so that we need to spend time and effort on lociking them up.

"UK Reporters move for boycott."Indeed they are, as they do so via computers and cell phones, both of which exist only because we invented both technologies. Processors? Cellphones? Digicams? All our technology so if one wants a boycott, they better cxall for it via sign language or smoke signals. Such hypocrisy...
 
Ahsan: "No life on the other side..." Indeed, I will not even mention why roadblocks are neccessary, but simply remind you and others that both the PA and HAMAS individually operate many more than we do, and much less efficiently. On average it takes 20 minutes to ransit a major border corssing. It takes 1.45 hours to do so via HAMAS or PA checkpoints.

Againt hough, should Arabs cease blowing themselves up while killing inncoent Israelis, our checkpoints would cease barring major borderpoints., Sadly, Arab ones will not.

"Arabs will never forgive us." Who cares? I only care about peaceful and secure coesitence. What they feel beyond that is entirely their own affair. I can forgive them for murdering my famioliy members and ming me spend 24 years in uniform from 16 to 40, I imagine they too can get over injustices that they themselves are primarily responsible for.

"Birthday party." What you neglected to ad though is just why her auto was targetted. The little thing about daddy murdering 44 Israelis, and then hiding behind his women and children. Missiles are not precise by any means but when Arabs refuse to police themselves, we have no choice but to prevent as much bloodshed as possible.

To foreigners this might seem like an oxymoron considering the little girl's horrible misfortune but then one mkust realise 2 things. Our responsibility is to protect OUR OWN people, and the numbers bear out the methods used. How many Arabs died in this op? How many Israelis had their lives saved by carrying out this op? While one can never definatively offer how many were saved, one can use sense in that he had killed dozens already, and had remained active in his cell. thus, ends DO sadly justify means.

AGAIN THOUGH, should Arabs police themselves, or even make a half hearted effort, such ops would no longer need to take place...
 
Ahsan: first, you have used the word Jew, although I can only say that you used it once as i have barely looked into your posting. You used it when describing true Jews as opposed to Zionists, and you referenced it when discussing how Jews, in your words see non_Jews, as you termed them "gentiles", as inferior. I politely ask you to specifically adress my comments in regards to your incorrect ASSMUPTION that Jews see themselves as superior for attaching the term "Chosen People" to themselves. Thank you ina dvance.
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Merkaz Ha’rav, a Talmudic College in West Jerusalem, that is largely considered to be the theological and ideological nerve center of religious-messianic Zionism.

The College teaches and promotes the teachings of Rabbi Abraham Isaac Kook, the first Chief Rabbi of the immigrant Jewish community in Palestine who is viewed as the religious and spiritual godfather and mentor of the settler movement, known as Gush Emunim (the bloc of faithful.”

According to Israeli writer Yair Sheleg Rabbi Kook wrote that “the difference between the Jewish soul and the souls of all non-Jews, no matter what their rank and level of understanding , is bigger and deeper than the difference between the human soul and the animal soul.” (Moses and the Prophets never taught this outrageous invention which is totally incompatible with the Abrahamic traditions).


A few years ago, Haim Yavin, a prominent TV personality in Israel, did a documentary on Jewish settlers in the West Bank and how they viewed their Arab neighbors.

The documentary featured a Jewish settler woman who told Yavin that “if we Jews get together, we will make the Palestinians our slaves…and “Muhammed” will make coffee for both of us.”

The Jewish terrorist who in 1994 murdered 29 Palestinian civilians while praying at the Ibrahimi Mosque in downtown Hebron, and the so-called hilltop youths) go one step further and believe that Palestinians belong to one and only place: The Ovens.




http://www.wakeupfromyourslumber.com/node/1892
 
:sl:
West Bank Policy Not Aiding Peace, Says UN

By Sharmila Devi in Jerusalem
Published: August 30 2007 19:48
Last updated: August 30 2007 19:48
The Financial Times

Israeli infrastructure that divides the West Bank and confines 2.5m Palestinians to enclaves does not provide a basis for a two-state solution to the conflict, said a United Nations report on Thursday.

...Mr Williams also pointed to the Jewish settlements in his final briefing to the UN Security Council on Wednesday...“Settlement activity undermines hope for a contiguous Palestinian state,” he said.

Almost 40 per cent of the West Bank is off-limits to Palestinians because of Israeli settlements, military infrastructure and a system of roads designed to ease access for Jewish settlers (see map above), justified by Israel as protection from terrorism.

The report points out: “These measures are also intimately linked to maintaining settler access and their quality of life.”

Israel took the West Bank, East Jerusalem and the Gaza Strip in 1967.

Settlements are deemed illegal under international law, but about 450,000 Jewish settlers now live in East Jerusalem and the West Bank. ...

Source:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/90c39d62-5721-11dc-9a3a-0000779fd2ac.html
 
in your words see non_Jews, as you termed them "gentiles", as inferior. I politely ask you to specifically adress my comments in regards to your incorrect ASSMUPTION that Jews see themselves as superior for attaching the term "Chosen People" to themselves.



" it would naturally be quite unsafe to trust a Gentile as a witness, either in a criminal case or in a civil suit. He could not be depended upon to keep his promise or word of honor like a Jew (Bek. 13b). The Talmud comments on the untruthfulness of Gentiles ("a band of strange children whose mouth speaketh vanity, and their right hand [in raising it to take an oath] is a right hand of falsehood".



http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/view.jsp?artid=142&letter=G&search=gentiles#538
 
Ahsan: "Rav Kook." I studied in a Rav Kook Yeshiva and I studied under Rav Kook's son. You are wrong 100 percent and have defamed a kind hearted man. You should , at the very least, try to verifiy your quotes independantly of your propagandic sites.

Your claim that Kook Elder said that is laughable. It shows both a lack of research and BASICunderstanding of the Jewish religion. No religious Jew would eVER be able to say such a thing ebcause one of the most basic things in our religion is the belief that all people are imbued with the Spark of Creation. This is the Essence of G-D so that to defame any person, Jew or otherwise, is a grave sin akin to idlo worship.

AGAIN, if you wish to learn about our religion, you need to avoid propaganda and concentrate oin the true faith.

As for the alleged documentary, so what? IF it happened, what does it matter? An individual Jew supposedly said horrible things? AND you need to learn the difference between individuals and a culture as a whole.To defame an entire nation over the words of one person, even if it were the PM, is ridiculous.

You say the words are not represtnative of the true Jewish faith (sic), then why do you bother to post them?

"Jew who murdered people at a mosque in Hebron..." His name was Dr. Baruch Goldstein and he was a manic depressive and a vile human for his actions.

He as NOT a "Hilltop Youth." Hilltop Youth are young Kahanists and number less than 200. They are drug abusers and anti-social. Still, not a single one has ever once committed an act of terror against anyone, unlike HAMAS, PIJ, and a number of other groups and their members.

"Hilltop Youth believe Arabs belong in ovens." Nope. Terrible for you to even say such a thing. No Jew, Kahanist or otherwise has ever advocated such a thing. See, in Israel we have the strongest Hate Crime law in the world. To even suggest a forced transfer of Arabs in words or writing gets you 10 years. Wonder how many years those people on Gaza's al Akhsa TV are getting from "Palestinian" courts for advocating genocide? How many years will those "Palestinians" who tried to lynch the IDF reservist 2 days ago in Ramallah will get?

How many did the group of "Palestinians" who in the 90s , on live International TV, DID lynch after physically tearing the limbs from 2 other IDF reservistsin Ramallah got? They did this in a police stattion and were never even arrested!

I could offer hundreds, literally, examples of this violence and hatred and all you can do is offer fake rantings. Please, provide facts.

Hilltop Youth said that? Post a BONAFIDE link.

Zman: "UN Report by Williams." Israel does NOT violate any International Law with regard to ANYTHING. If it did, you would see it at least CHARGED at Hague or Brussels. International Law is hgihly interprative . Of course, the PA and HAMAS violate it everyday, with no need for interpretation. Allowance of existing terrorist entities is a direct and clear violation. Any thtoughts?

As for William's thoughts on contigious borders...He needs to first concentrate on getting the "Palestinians" to accept abidance and compliance with the Resolution for Ratification and Resolution for Partition. THEN, maybe he can devote needed time to other issues.

As to the opinion that non-contigous borders will not allow for a viable state, fuuny since the UN is the one that recommdned the lack of such borders!

While the UN under Ban is making progress on these issues, Williamns and the Human Rights section show us that the UN has alot of growing up to do.
 
Ahsan: "Checkpoints are not meant to humiliate women and children." Actually, they are not meant to humiliate anyone.

Do the Checkpoints serve a purpose. I told you that yesterday a 14 year old was caught with a bomb at one. Are they then meant to humiliate or to catch bmombers? Please answer.

Then, please answer why PA and HAMAS Checkpoints also strip search their own people? Are they too trying to humiliate "Palestinians?" Please answer.
 
Israel's crimes are very bad against palestinians in many cases, but Palestinian crimes ared equaly as bad. I won't let one side be taken down while another side remains guilty yet the hypocrites refuse to be critical of them as well.

___



What happened to Jewish Holy Sites and places of worship in lands controlled by the Arabs?

On May 28, 1948 the Arab Legion completed the capture of the Jewish Quarter of the Old City of Jerusalem, the site of numerous ancient synagogues and the Western Wall of the Temple, destroyed by the Romans in the year 70 AD. These were and remain the holiest sites in the Jewish religion.

After the Jewish Quarter of Jerusalem was captured, the destruction, desecration and systematic looting of Jewish sites began and continued. 57 ancient synagogues (the oldest dated to the 13th century), libraries and centers of religious study were ransacked and 12 were totally and deliberately destroyed. Those that remained standing were defaced, used for housing of both people and animals. The city's foremost Jewish shrine, the Western Wall, became a slum. Appeals were made to the United Nations and in the international community to declare the Old City to be an 'open city' and stop this destruction, but there was no response. This condition continued until Jordan lost control of Jerusalem in June 1967.

On the Mount of Olives, the Jordanian Arabs removed 38,000 tombstones from the ancient cemetery and used them as paving stones for roads and as construction material in Jordanian Army camps, including use as latrines. When the area was recaptured by Israel in 1967, graves were found open with the bones scattered. Parts of the cemetery were converted into parking lots, a filling station, and an asphalt road was built to cut through it. The Intercontinental Hotel was built at the top of the cemetery. Sadar Khalil, appointed by the Jordanian government as the official caretaker of the cemetery, built his home on the grounds using the stones robbed from graves. In 1967, the press published extensive photos documenting that Jewish gravestones were found in Jordanian Army camps, such as El Azariya, as well as in Palestinian walkways, steps, bathrooms, and pavement.

The Hurva Synagogue, attributed to Rabbi Moses Ben Nahman (Ramban), was the main synagogue in Jerusalem in the fifteenth and sixteenth centuries (and possibly much earlier), until the Ottomans closed it in 1589 because of Muslim incitement. It was burned by Arabs in 1721 (Hurva = destruction in Hebrew), but again rebuilt by Zionists in the 19th century, becoming the most prominent synagogue on the Jerusalem skyline. For that reason, when it was captured by the Arab Legion during the battle for Old Jerusalem in 1948, they dynamited it to show that they controlled the Jewish Quarter. When the Jews in New Jerusalem saw the Hurva burning, they knew that Jewish life in the Quarter had ended (again).

Access to the Holy Sites
When the 1948 war ended, and negotiations began, the Israeli representatives emphasized regaining access to Jewish Jerusalem. Article VIII of the Israel-Jordan Armistice Agreement, signed on April 3, 1949, called for the establishment of a Special Committee:

... composed of two representatives of each Party for the purpose of formulating agreed plans" including "free access to the Holy Places and cultural institutions and use of the cemetery on the Mount of Olives.
Hopes were high that Jews might visit the Western Wall for Passover 1949, but the Jordanians violated the Armistice Agreement. These clauses were never honored. Promises continued to be made, and Glubb Pasha, the British commander of the Arab Legion, pledged that:

Jerusalem's Arab and Jewish populations would be two separate cities with free trade and exchange between each other. The Arabs would be perfectly willing to allow the Jews to have access to their shrines, notably the Wailing Wall, now inside the Arab-held Old City.
The Jordanian "occupation" of the West Bank was very abusive of the rights of Jews and Christians, or any resident of Israel. Jewish and muslim residents of Israel were not permitted to visit their Holy Places in East Jerusalem. Christians, too, were discriminated against. In 1958, Jordanian legislation required all members of the Brotherhood of the Holy Sepulchre to adopt Jordanian citizenship. In 1965, Christian institutions were forbidden to acquire any land or rights in or near Jerusalem. In 1966, Christian schools were compelled to close on Fridays instead of Sundays, customs privileges of Christian religious institutions were abolished. Jerusalem was bisected by barbed wire, concrete barriers and walls. On a number of occasions Jordanian soldiers opened fire on Jewish Jerusalem. In May 1967, the Temple Mount became a military base for the Jordanian National Guard.

During the Jordanian occupation of Hebron from 1948 to 1967, Jews were not permitted to live in the city, nor -- despite the term of the 1948 Armistice Agreement -- to visit or pray at the Jewish holy sites in the city. Additionally, the Jordanian authorities and local residents undertook a systematic campaign to eliminate any evidence of the Jewish presence in the city. They razed the Jewish Quarter, desecrated the Jewish cemetery and built an animal pen on the ruins of the Avraham Avinu synagogue

Although there were numerous discussions of this issue, and Israeli complaints, the Jordanians refused to honor the agreement, and the UN did not pass any resolutions against this treatment of Jewish religious institutions.

http://palestinefacts.org/pf_1948to1967_holysites.php
 
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More about war crimes from the other side as well to give an equal point of view.
____

Gaza: Armed Palestinian Groups Commit Grave Crimes

New York, June 13, 2007) – During recent fighting in the Gaza Strip, armed Palestinian groups have committed serious violations of international humanitarian law, in some cases amounting to war crimes, Human Rights Watch said today.

In internal Palestinian fighting over the last three days, both Fatah and Hamas military forces have summarily executed captives, killed people not involved in hostilities, and engaged in gun battles with one another inside and near Palestinian hospitals. On Saturday, armed Palestinians from Islamic Jihad and the Fatah-affiliated Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade used a vehicle with a “TV” insignia to attack an Israeli military position on the border with Gaza.

“These attacks by both Hamas and Fatah constitute brutal assaults on the most fundamental humanitarian principles,” said Sarah Leah Whitson, Middle East director for Human Rights Watch. “The murder of civilians not engaged in hostilities and the willful killing of captives are war crimes, pure and simple.”

On Sunday, Hamas military forces captured 28-year-old Muhammad Swairki, a cook for President Mahmoud Abbas’s presidential guard, and executed him by throwing him to his death, with his hands and legs tied, from a 15-story apartment building in Gaza City. Later that night, Fatah military forces shot and captured Muhammad al-Ra’fati, a Hamas supporter and mosque preacher, and threw him from a Gaza City high-rise apartment building. On Monday, Hamas military forces attacked the home in Beit Lahiya of Jamal Abu al-Jadiyan, a senior Fatah official, captured him, and executed him on the street with multiple gunshots. On Tuesday, there were reports of additional killings of individuals not involved in hostilities.

In addition, Fatah and Hamas forces engaged in battles in and around two Gaza Strip hospitals on Monday. After Hamas fighters killed Fatah intelligence officer Yasir Bakar, Fatah gunmen began firing mortars and rocket-propelled grenades at Shifa Hospital in Gaza City, drawing Hamas fire from inside the building, killing one Hamas and one Fatah fighter. At a hospital in Beit Hanun, three family members with ties to Fatah, `Id al-Masri and his sons, Farij and Ibrahim, were killed, and others wounded. Hospital officials reported that the three were being treated for injuries sustained earlier. One was reportedly shot at close range.

All parties engaged in armed conflict are subject to customary international humanitarian law, which forbids deliberate harming of civilians and those who are not engaged in armed hostilities at the time, Human Rights Watch said. International humanitarian law also provides special protection to medical personnel and hospitals. Military and civilian hospitals and medical units must be protected and respected in all circumstances.

In the June 9 incident, four armed Palestinians drove a white jeep bearing “TV” insignias to a fence on the Gaza-Israel border and fired at Israeli soldiers. The Israelis returned fire, killing one Palestinian. Spokesmen for Islamic Jihad and the Al-Aqsa Martyrs Brigade, an offshoot of Fatah, claimed responsibility for the attack. An Islamic Jihad spokesperson denied that Palestinians had put press markings on the jeep used in the June 9 attack, and accused the Israeli military of doing so after the fact. However, photos taken by the Associated Press as the attack was under way show the letters “TV” written in red on the front of the jeep.

“Using a vehicle with press markings to carry out a military attack is a serious violation of the laws of war, and it also puts journalists at risk,” said Whitson.

Customary international humanitarian law provides that journalists not taking direct part in hostilities in armed conflict zones “shall be considered as civilians.” The deliberate abuse of this protected status in order to breach the confidence of an adversary in an attempt to kill, injure or capture them, would amount to an act of perfidy, a serious violation of international humanitarian law.

The Palestinian Journalists Union on Sunday criticized the use by armed factions of press insignia in a statement: “The use of vehicles that carry ‘Press,’ ‘TV’ or other signs ... exposes journalists’ lives to danger, gives the Israeli occupation a pretext to target and kill journalists and restricts their ability to perform their professional and national duties. … We demand all parties stop using these methods.”

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2007/06/13/isrlpa16156.htm
 

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