when are you not a muslim?

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wilberhum said:
If you are a Muslim, you can't.
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Exactly my point- now do you understand why we are opposed to people calling themselves Muslims and then saying the Quran is wrong, thus implying that they know better than God Himself?

That is why we consider their acts to be acts of apostasy.
 
Skillganon said:
Funny thing is majority of the world is theist. Not atheist.

So claiming they don't believe in Allah falls short.
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Oh but you are working on a major falicy. I believe is god as most of the world does. But his name is not Allah. :thumbs_do and most of the world agrees with me.
 
wilberhum said:
Oh but you are working on a major falicy. I believe is god as most of the world does. But his name is not Allah. :thumbs_do and most of the world agrees with me.
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I alway's get this major fallacies "espoused" on me for some reason without my approval. Sometime I wonder wether I am getting forced into a marriage.

Call it "The Creator" does not make a difference.
It is same as saying I believe in Allah, but his name is not God.
Both is used to refer to "The Creator".

I think we should stick to the topic atleast. Don't wan't to derail this thread.
 
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Also on top of what I wrote I dont know if anyone read it. There is also the fact that those denounced by people are are more likely to be depicted by the media correctly than lets say Bin Laden. Because liberals are seen to be on the same side as the media, whilst bin laden is not.

So that helps also with some muslims becuase when it comes to denooucing ultra liberal people then it is more likely that the sources that are given are correct in their depiction, whilst when talkin about someone who most countries dislike then to base their opinion on such media is something alot of Muslims do not like to do.
 
Keltoi said:
That has nothing to do with what I said. I consider someone who commits acts of murder as being far worse than one who denies the divinity of Christ. I hope the individual finds Christ in his life, but the fact that he hasn't isn't nearly as bad as the fact that he murdered innocent people.
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assalam alaykum,

My question really has nothing to do with what actions are worse or not worse. It's simply a logical, non emotional question on what exactly is an act that would make someone not a muslim anymore.

Just as my denying Christ as my saviour would make me not a Christian yet my sinning by committing murder would not deny my Christianity. (if I were a Christian which I am not) Granted the murder is obviously a worse thing in our mortal eyes, but still it does not negate the religion of the one doing it.

There are good Christians and bad Christians just as there are good Muslims and bad Muslims, but good or bad, they are still Muslim as long as they believe that there is only One God and that Mohammed, pbuh, is His messenger and try to adhere to the 5 pillars of faith as much as they are able.

My reason for the question was a debate on another forum where some were aghast that I would say that although a muslim may commit a heinous crime, they would still be my brother/sister in Islam.

I hope that makes sense. I obviously (to me) think that any people who put harm on innocent lives is a bad person who deserves to be punished. That really doesn't have to do with my original question though.
 
:sl:

^Good post. And those are punished under Islamic law, they just aren't considered non-Muslims.
 
Keltoi said:
That is pretty much what I got out of the rather complicated answers to a rather simple question. However, in a Christian context, one can commit murder and still be called a Christian if they honestly repent and give their lives to Christ. Of course judgement is reserved for God alone.

I don't know about the answers given, they are strange to me as a Christian. However, perhaps my thinking on this issue is impacted by the death of 3,000 of my fellow citizens. I just find it odd that one is considered worse for not adhering to aspects of fundamental Islam, while a murdering terrorist is given the benefit of the doubt. Oh well...
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Your statement is not far off from what a Muslim believes. If I recall in Christianity the one unforgivable sin is "Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit" so if a person committed that sin, it could be said they have removed them selves from Christianity. Although they have not killed anyone nor committed any violent acts. While on the other hand a Christian could commit murder, repent and still be a bona fide Christian.

Same thing with us, we can not know unless a person specifically openly disavows Islam. until such a statement is made by a person we have to assume they are Muslim, even if sadly lacking in the practices of being a Muslim.
 
wilberhum said:
Oh but you are working on a major falicy. I believe is god as most of the world does. But his name is not Allah. :thumbs_do and most of the world agrees with me.
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There are non Muslims calling their God as Allah...

For example the Peranakan Chinese in Malaysia, Singapore and Indonesia use the term "Tuan Allah" for "God".... and the Iban (both tribal religionist and christian) also use "Allah" for "God"....

And millions more Christians in the Mid East using the same term too... "Allah"...

"Allah" is not exclusive right for Muslims only... you know..
 
&&


Killing innocent people is a major sin & if the killer does not repent sincerely , he will be in the eternal fire. But , in this world , he will be considered as a Muslim & ( to my knowledge ) will be buried in a Muslim graveyard .



I agree....
 
Keltoi said:
That has nothing to do with what I said. I consider someone who commits acts of murder as being far worse than one who denies the divinity of Christ. I hope the individual finds Christ in his life, but the fact that he hasn't isn't nearly as bad as the fact that he murdered innocent people.
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I was kind of disturbed when I read your post. As a Muslim we read in the Qur’an that the greatest sin or wrong anyone can commit is rejecting their Creator or making false statement about Him. So when you said that you consider someone who murders innocent people to be worst, it just puzzled me.
I know you don’t believe in the Qur’an so this, unfortunately, doesn’t mean anything to you. But for the sake of the argument let’s say that we both believe in “The Creator”. How can the act of rejecting your Creator be considered better than killing someone. (Don’t get the impression that I’m justifying or condoning killing or the killers.) Our Creator not only created us, but He sustains us, provides for us…..I can go on but I’ll never be able to mention all that He does for us. When someone does this for me, He should come first in my life, whatever hurts Him should also hurt me. We can’t repay Him back so in return we give Him our sincere and unparallel love. Love that we show through our obedience to Him. As human we try not to hurt the one we love. When His creation rejects Him it hurts Him. If you are a parent, then you know if your children reject you and everything you do for them, you would be hurt. You won’t tolerate it and probably you’ll tell them to leave your house. Fortunately for us our Creator is Most Forbearing and Patient. Murdering someone without just reasons is wrong and is a major sin. But rejecting the Creator is a far greater crime. If a murderer dies after repenting then they have a chance to be saved from hell by the Grace of the Creator. But, if you die rejecting your Creator, there will be no helper or saver for you. This is not just an Islamic point of view. Christianity teaches the same: if you don’t die as a Christian then you’ll go to hell.
-SI-
 
i do not Know Usama Bin Laden
I do not have any proof that he did 9/11
therefore i will not judge him
 
You say you're not allowed to judge whether someone is muslim or not yet I've heard everyone judge British muslim soldiers. Those soldiers haven't denounced the Quran, they pray everyday, they know the Quran, they practice it, devoted to Islam but because they are fighting for the British army they aren't real muslims. :rolleyes:
 
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Keltoi said:
If his confession was false, then he is a liar. Which is worse?, a murderer or a liar? Can you make that judgment?
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Say when you go to court, if the suspect confesses to his crime he is automatically guilty and will be locked up.

The fact he is even supporting these attacks he just as bad as the ones that committed it. You don't need proof, though confession is enough. He deserves to be executed for his state of mind.
 
England said:
Say when you go to court, if the suspect confesses to his crime he is automatically guilty and will be locked up.

The fact he is even supporting these attacks he just as bad as the ones that committed it. You don't need proof, though confession is enough. He deserves to be executed for his state of mind.
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Well, I think there is alot of evidence pointing to Bin Laden, mainly with the money trail. His confession on the videotape is just icing on the cake as far as any theoretical prosecution. Of course that is off topic.

Here is a question I would like an answer to. If Bin Laden was put on trial and found guilty of terrorist crimes, would the Muslims on this forum then denounce the man? Or would it have to be a "Muslim court?"....even though the victims aren't Muslims?
 
salamualikum.
NO COMMENT CAN'T JUDGE WELL SAID SIS 'CHIAD'' I AGREE WITH YOU.
ma'assalama
 
Kittygyal said:
salamualikum.
NO COMMENT CAN'T JUDGE WELL SAID SIS 'CHIAD'' I AGREE WITH YOU.
ma'assalama
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This is what I'm talking about. "No comment..can't judge". That seems to be the response by most Muslims on this forum about pretty much any terrorist, unless the terrorist is non-Muslim of course. Then when someone brings up a cleric or a fellow Muslim who disagrees with their particular brand of Islam, the thread is flooded with opinions, denouncements, barely concealed calls for assassination, etc. This just doesn't make sense to me and I don't think it ever will.
 
Keltoi said:
This is what I'm talking about. "No comment..can't judge". That seems to be the response by most Muslims on this forum about pretty much any terrorist, unless the terrorist is non-Muslim of course. Then when someone brings up a cleric or a fellow Muslim who disagrees with their particular brand of Islam, the thread is flooded with opinions, denouncements, barely concealed calls for assassination, etc. This just doesn't make sense to me and I don't think it ever will.
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Greetings,
i respect dude, i wouldn't understand either, as you are a christain, myself never agreed with all this && i used to judge alot when i ''was'' a christain, but now as i am a muslim we can NOT judge apart from allah (God) i hope you understand but i have to depart now take care :)
God bless :smile:
 
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