when are you not a muslim?

[Keltoi]

Greetings,
i respect dude, i understand it wouldn't as you are a christain myself never agreed with all this && i used to judge alot when i ''was'' a christain, but now as i am a muslim we can NOT judge apart from allah (God) i hope you understand but i have to depart now take care
God bless :smile:

No, I don't understand. I don't know about you personally, and my comment wasn't directed towards you in particular. However, the justification you use for not "judging" anything seems to fly in the face of everything else in Islam. I just don't get it. Perhaps it is because I'm a Christian.

 

[chris4336]

I am kind of surprised as well. Just look at the aposty and adultery threads - people seem to have no problem saying these people should be executed. It happens very often in the Muslim world. This man killed innocent people and admitted to it. Where is the outcry for his execution?

 

[DAWUD_adnan]

It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god.

Dude, dont you realize what you just said? ow yeah you dont understand arabic, look how stupid it looks( i have translated the arabic for you) :

It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god. ( your version)


It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think The One True God is god. (translated version)

is it just me or is 80% of the world stupid.. really stupid?:uuh:

 

[Keltoi]

Dude, dont you realize what you just said? ow yeah you dont understand arabic, look how stupid it looks( i have translated the arabic for you) :

It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god. ( your version)


It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think The One True God is god. (translated version)

is it just me or is 80% of the world stupid.. really stupid?:uuh:

I think what he was saying is that 80% of the world aren't Muslims. Now if you include all the "People of the Book" as worshiping that "One True God", then we are talking about something else entirely.

 

[Kittygyal]

Dude, dont you realize what you just said? ow yeah you dont understand arabic, look how stupid it looks( i have translated the arabic for you) :

It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think Allah is god. ( your version)


It is easy, about 80% of the world don't think The One True God is god. (translated version)

is it just me or is 80% of the world stupid.. really stupid?:uuh:

salamualikum.
khair, forget it dude this happens when people just talk && talk && then one day it will come to the end forget it not worth it dude ffended: you belive in what you belive don't waste yh time
Ma'assalama

 

[Keltoi]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of why some Muslims find it so hard to judge a confessed murderer but find it easy to judge people they don't agree with. Is that the answer?

 

[DAWUD_adnan]

simply said in islam, forgiveness is easier to find if you dont apostate, Allah( One True God) will forgive anything faster than apostasy.

 

[DAWUD_adnan]

I think what he was saying is that 80% of the world aren't Muslims. Now if you include all the "People of the Book" as worshiping that "One True God", then we are talking about something else entirely.

tahnks for the clarification but still even if he said that he would be saying that

80% of the world do not submitthemselves to the will of The One True God as muslim means submitter to the will of God.

thanks i have to go bye

 

[Keltoi]

simply said in islam, forgiveness is easier to find if you dont apostate, Allah( One True God) will forgive anything faster than apostasy.

Well, I understand the concept of forgiveness, but one has to seek forgiveness before one can be forgiven. Also, who decides who is apostate? I've seen that word thrown around pretty loosely on this forum. Is an apostate one who deviates from the fundamentals of Islam? If that is the case, is murder deviating from the Quran?

 

[strider]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of why some Muslims find it so hard to judge a confessed murderer but find it easy to judge people they don't agree with. Is that the answer?

I feel uncomfortable talking about Bin Ladin, because i've heard so many conflicting accounts of what he is supposed to believe in or not or what he is supposed to have done or not done. How can you possibly feel comfortable passing judgement on such a character? If he orchastrated 9/11 then he has innocent blood on his hands and for that, capital punishment is deserved.

With Bin Ladin comes a whole bunch of messed up politics and if we aren't in the inner circle we can't possibly know for sure what really happened/happens.

 

[Woodrow]

Well, I understand the concept of forgiveness, but one has to seek forgiveness before one can be forgiven. Also, who decides who is apostate? I've seen that word thrown around pretty loosely on this forum. Is an apostate one who deviates from the fundamentals of Islam? If that is the case, is murder deviating from the Quran?

It is very serious to accuse another person of apostasy. Sadly, the accusation is sometimes used too readily. To be an apostate means that the person was a Muslim and then has openly shown or said that he/she is no longer Muslim.

There are very few actions that can be seen as acts of apostasy. a few are:

1. To worship gods in addition to the one God(swt)

2. To deliberately not say regular prayers

Plus these actions have to be witnessed by reliable witnesses. The person has to be warned that his actions are apostasy and only if he continues with the actions can it be called apostasy.

That is the short version as to what constitutes apostasy and it is my own wordings and may or may not be as it is written. Astagfirullah

Apostasy From Islam: The Most Abhorrent Sin



Praise be to Allah, the Lord of the worlds. May Allah raise the rank of our master Muhammad and his Al and Companions and protect his nation from that which he fears for it. Thereafter:


Islam is the only religion Allah accepts from His slaves and the only religion He ordered His slaves to follow. The one who performs the greatest right of Allah on the slave by worshipping Allah alone, not taking any partners to Him, and believing in the message of the Prophet Muhammad, will be granted everlasting bounties in Paradise. He who takes for himself a religion other than Islam and dies on that status will be a loser on the Day of Judgment and his eternal abode is Hellfire, where the torture does not cease nor decrease. Allah does not forgive the one who dies non-Muslim, nor will any of his good deeds done in this lifetime be accepted from him. Surat Muhammad, Ayah 34:



means: [Those who blasphemed and block away from the ways of Allah and die as blasphemers, Allah shall not forgive them. Surat an Nisa', Ayah 48:



means: [Allah does not forgive that one associates partners with Him, and He forgives whatever is less than that for whomever He willed.]

Source:http://www.aicp.org/IslamicInformation/English/Apostasy.htm.old

 

[doodlebug]

assalam alaykum

ok my bad..didn't realize this thread would take such a turn. It was a simple question to me.

As an aside, I don't judge anyone, but I will say that those who are proven guilty should be punished according to the laws that Allah has sent to us. That goes for everyone, whether they be an adulterer, muderer, terrorist, etc. It's plain and clear all laid out in the Quran.

The ultimate judging is up to Allah and Allah knows best. All of what all humans combined on this earth know isn't even a pebble in the sand of the vast desert compared to Allah's knowledge.

 

[YusufNoor]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of why some Muslims find it so hard to judge a confessed murderer but find it easy to judge people they don't agree with. Is that the answer?

Peace Keltoi,

there's a catch, Catch 22! you can't say ANYTHING bad about a fellow Muslim [irregardless of whatever moronic, demonic or just plain devious the behaviour may be it seems]. apostacy makes you a non-Muslim, thus judgemental remarks seem allowed...

but, what the heck, bin Laden, Al Qaeda, et al seem like murderers to me!

happy now?kay:



Yusuf

 

[جوري]

it is hard because believe it or not some of us don't believe he is behind your government perpetrated attacks... it is that simple....
I think you and us are beyond trying to prove the other person wrong... each of us will believe what he will. So how can we judge a man convict and even execute him without a trial? Only fools believe everything their media/govt. tells them. I have to believe that if you in person believed all you read ans saw on your TV, you'd not even be on this forum trying to understand Muslims. since on some level it would make you a supporter of terrorist views or frequenting a terrorist site. Imagine that.......

 

[Curaezipirid]

Salam

This is a good thread of necessary dialogue. But the reality is that while I might direct one person in one context to notice a specific example of another persons behaviour, for example if a kafir wanted to remind me about jahannam, but was hoping thereby to escape from himself, then I might use that as an example to a new Muslim, of a person whom is not true in their belief.

But by the same token, when I am actually talking with that exact same kafir, I will not say that they were wrong, since perhaps they had only been misinstructed themself. And perhaps, by knowing my own example, even that kafir might learn to behave according to correct belief.

So usually no Muslim will endeavour to find fault in any other Muslim, however, if we need an example of a wrong deed to teach from how such behaviour can be corrected, then we might have before named an individual as wrong.

In general, the stronger any persons individual faith is, the less likely they are to need to find any other person faulted. Thereby it is good practise to never name any other person with a Muslim identity as not actually a Muslim.

Yet clearly only a minority among all whom are professed Muslims, are always true to their faith. Yet in Islam are we still safe.

Criminals here in Australia whom try to sell drugs to youth whom have already pronounced Shahada, also try to tell those youth that as soon as they smoke one cigarette, they are no longer Muslim, and no longer within any protection of the Ummah. But all the youth need is to repent and pray.

Perhaps all of us are only really true Muslims during the moments in which our minds are held by Allah in real prayer? But there is nothing stopping us from re-committing as a new Muslim in any moment of every day. After every temptation, and in every situation, we can stay Muslim, and we can rebecome Muslim inside our self if ever we doubted ourself.

The same goes for Bin Laden and any other such persons. You can not know, and neither can I, what was in his mind at the moment of his death. So therein, can neither of us know if he died as Muslim.

But what we can know, is that it might be to our immediate detriment if we fail to acknowledge that perhaps he repented every wrong action in his moment of death.

Salam

 

[Curaezipirid]

I'm still waiting for an explanation of why some Muslims find it so hard to judge a confessed murderer but find it easy to judge people they don't agree with. Is that the answer?

Because he is confessed Keltoi.

This is a matter of one of the essential keys to Islam. In his confession, even if it is only an internal confession between himself and Allah, that he has confessed to murder, or even to want of a murder, is that in his own death so he will be accounted, and therefore he is not for us to Judge as wrong, since he did not wrong us but he wronged his own self and his own love.

But as for a man with whom I disagree? I am neither Judging him only by being in disagreement with. And if I happen to Judge him, perhaps it might be only because we began our conversation with a greeting in which we open ourselves to each others Judgment as an act of acceptance of each other, and of accepting the faults in each other as a communally held responsiblity between the two of us. So if a judgment passes in a conversation, what is it to you that you regret any murders not seeming to be so very harshly vindicated as criminal, as our conversation might arm ourselves against each other with?

Salam

 

[جوري]

when has he confessed? I'd love to see that? oh wait I think CIA is working on it, will be released first thing tomorrow... lol

 

[Keltoi]

Back to another conspiracy? Why do I even bother?

 

[*Hana*]

Salam Alaikum:

I agree sis PurestAmbrosia, I'd like to know when he confessed too.

As far as 9/11 goes, the FBI's most wanted "poster" of him doesn't list 9/11 and when asked why they said, "There is no hard evidence to prove any connection to 9/11." You can see their "poster" HERE

Now, as far as things he may have admitted doing, if they catch him, IMO, he should be tried for that under the laws of the Shariah if he is captured in a predominately Muslim country. However, he is still a Muslim and none of us are in a position to say differently and as Muslims we are not permitted to say differently unless he openly denounces his faith.

Whether he is a good Muslim or a bad Muslim is between him and Allah, swt. We don't have to agree with or accept what he, or any other Muslim may do, but we do have to accept he is a Muslim. It's that simple. I know both good and bad Muslims, good and bad Christians, etc. I choose not to associate with the bad of either, but it doesn't mean they are not Muslims or Christians.

Someone may not be a practicing Muslim or they may be a bad Muslim, but if they still accept the proclamation of faith and do not denounce it, how can they be an apostate?

wa'alaikum salam,
Hana

 

[جوري]

Back to another conspiracy? Why do I even bother?

That is funny.. the only conspiracy theories are perpetrated by your Govt. You don't have to have a doctorate to process and understand warfare in all its forms. or understand simple dictations of laws of physics. They hit you from a thousand angel a thousand video that miraculously appears when bush's ratings are low as if Usama is sitting there in his usama cave with his usama mobile checking the Internet thinking of ways to taunt that miserable buffoon. When only one good piece of evidence would have sufficed had it been true. This is almost too comical to comprehend. It makes for a bad movie plot. So you are right I don't know why you bother? why do you really? I can't think of a decent answer for that. You are repeating it like a religious prayer the way they do on nightly TV hoping people would forget facts and pick on emotion. I don't know where Usama went but I do know that he stands trial not from Bush and cronies but from the one that created him out of two cells. So stop wanting to initiate a sentiment from the people here that just doesn't exist... what is this? the Gestapo? each person is entitled to their own beliefs and opinions without infringement. You want to believe he is bad and killed your fellow Americans by all means no one is holding you back and I reckon a great deal of population echoes your sentiment.......

p.s thank you sister Hana for your reply :smile: