When was the Bible corrupted?

*Contradiction #: 4 Jesus was crucified???
One more mistake, hey, Prophets and Apostles are always appointed and sent by God to spread His message on earth. So when he appoints and sent him "duly authorized", it means that God takes the responsibility of his safety and well-being, right? So, I think this is added to gain sympathy from mases, right???

Thanks

You are sure about this ? History seem to contradict you as well as Koran
Muhammad died in 632 A.D. He died as a result of being poisoned following his attack upon and conquest of the Jewish settlement of Khaibar
Tacitus is arguably the greatest of Roman historians. He lived from 56 AD to 120 AD. The following quote is taken from Annals 15.44 - his work on Roman history.
Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius:

The masses required Jesus' death, even having been allowed to show sympathy after He was beaten.

Sorry, I know that this is dear to you, but the Koran is at the very least, not historically correct.
 
Salaam/peace;

but the Koran is at the very least, not historically correct.

lol do u have any proof of that ? This discussion will off topic here ; so pl. open a thread '' Proof Quran is historically incorrect ' or u may visit this thread---Things in Islam I am curious about...


--http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/37118-things-islam-i-am-curious-about-new-post.html




yes , Quran do tell us that Jews killed some Prophets (pbut ) .They tried to kill Jesus (p) also but failed.
 
If you mean by the first generation of Christians ,such branch of Christianity inside the circle of Athanasius of Alexandria,then we agree

but we have other branches of Christianity outside the circle of Athanasius of Alexandria...who have other concepts regarding Jesus and other texts too,
which was deemed to be heretical,or was unknown to the canonizers..

eg, the Gospel of Thomas which attests to a diversity of viewpoints in early Christianity,including very different understandings of Jesus,It offers the debates and struggles within early Christianity,assists in understanding early Christianity's relationship, and eventual split, with Judaism.

The author begins with (These are the sayings that the living Jesus spoke )

he made it clear that what counts, is the words that been preached,not Jesus himself....

he goes on recording what was transcribed from an oral tradition,mentions nothing regarding Trinity,crucifiction,resurrection ....

That is inconvenient to the Pauline church,and its obseesion with its own ( Hellenized Jesus ) agenda etc.....

Paul wrote, "And if Christ be not risen, then is our preaching vain, and your faith is also vain.(I Corinthians 15:14-15)

so How they would accept a text without (resurrection narratives).

in the first century,

1) EVERY CHURCH HAD ITS OWN DOCTRINE

2) EVERY CHURCH HAD ITS OWN SCRIPTURES.

Not until the first council did the people in Rome set what we see today as the standard christian theology. All those other early churches have been persecuted and killed for their different views.

in sum and substance,
it wouldn't be safe to claim that (4NT&Pauline epistles) are the stories that were believed and held to be true by the first generation of ALL Christians.

By first generation I mean the first generation, let's say before 100 A.D. Neither Athanasius nor the supposed Gospel of Thomas meet that criterion:
Athanasius of Alexandria, 293-383 AD
Gospel of Thomas, mid-2nd century (140-200 AD)

In my opinion, all of the books of the New Testament, as we now have it, were written before 100 A.D. Yes, this includes the Gospel of John, the Revelation of John, and the letter to the Hebrews. And, yes, there were other books, such as the Didache, written in the first century that are not a part of the New Testament corpus.

And lest you think it was just the 4 Gospels and Paul that shared this message of a crucified and resurrected Jesus, here are some other books that mention it to:
Acts 2:32 -- God has raised this Jesus to life, and we are all witnesses of the fact.
Acts 3:15 -- You killed the author of life, but God raised him from the dead. We are witnesses of this.
1 Peter 1:21 -- Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
1 Peter 3:21-22 -- ...and this water symbolizes baptism that now saves you also—not the removal of dirt from the body but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. It saves you by the resurrection of Jesus Christ, who has gone into heaven and is at God's right hand—with angels, authorities and powers in submission to him.
Hebrews 2:9 -- But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels, now crowned with glory and honor because he suffered death, so that by the grace of God he might taste death for everyone.
Hebrews 12:2 -- Let us fix our eyes on Jesus, the author and perfecter of our faith, who for the joy set before him endured the cross, scorning its shame, and sat down at the right hand of the throne of God.
1 John 3:16 -- This is how we know what love is: Jesus Christ laid down his life for us.
1 JOhn 4:10 -- This is love: not that we loved God, but that he loved us and sent his Son as an atoning sacrifice for[c] our sins.
Revelation 1:18 -- I am the Living One; I was dead, and behold I am alive for ever and ever! And I hold the keys of death and Hades.

But we can also see that there was no stranglehold that required that every book that was included in the New Testament had to mention Jesus death and resurrection. Some, such as Hebrews, only mention his death, not his resurrection (though I think Hebrews assumes it). Others, such as James, don't mention anything about the life of Christ, only how Christians are to live their lives. I think these facts show us that theories about some Church heirarchy dictating what is and isn't exceptable is not in place. What happened is that the grass roots of the Church, knowing the story of the faith that had been passed down, found some works to be more beneficial than others to helping them perserve their faith and these are the books that became canon while the others were relegated to either slightly lower status or dismissed as being suprious works.
 
Last edited:
Salaam/peace;



lol do u have any proof of that ? This discussion will off topic here ; so pl. open a thread '' Proof Quran is historically incorrect ' or u may visit this thread---Things in Islam I am curious about...


--http://www.islamicboard.com/comparative-religion/37118-things-islam-i-am-curious-about-new-post.html




yes , Quran do tell us that Jews killed some Prophets (pbut ) .They tried to kill Jesus (p) also but failed.

Kindly consider that the response was to the authenticity of the Bible re the death of Jesus. His death is contradicted by the Koran (hence I suppose the original claim of "corruption"/contradiction).

In view of historical evidence, even outside Christianity, that Jesus was killed, proves the Koran incorrect (sorry, the Bible correct) on at least this one occasion. Please note that the source mentioned is not the only one available.
 
Salaam/peace;

In view of historical evidence, even outside Christianity, that Jesus was killed, proves the Koran incorrect .


ok , show us pl. what proof do u have '' even outside Christianity '' . And how can u be sure that those evidence is correct & Quran is wrong ?

May be , Quran is right & other sources are wrong ????

To us Muslims , Quran is the criteria & to others .....other sources . So , i guess , we will have to wait till last day when all disputes will be solved .
 
By first generation I mean the first generation, let's say before 100 A.D. Neither Athanasius nor the supposed Gospel of Thomas meet that criterion:
Athanasius of Alexandria, 293-383 AD
Gospel of Thomas, mid-2nd century (140-200 AD)

In my opinion, all of the books of the New Testament, as we now have it, were written before 100 A.D. .


upon what basis the Gospel of Thomas doesn't meet that criterion?!!!

IF:

The earliest known manuscripts of the New Testament which is a fragment from John, P52. and the evidence allows for a range of dates that extends from before 100 to well into the second half of the second century,the same could be said about ,The scrolls of the Gospel of Thomas, mid-2nd century (140-200 AD)..


when were them both written?
the answer is controversal for both....

John ,some scholars agree on a range of c. 90-100 for when the gospel was written, though dates as early as the 60s or as late as the 140s....
Thomas, an early camp favoring a date in the 50s, approximately contemporary with the composition of the canonical gospels(They have more reasonable arguments), and a late camp favoring a mid-2nd century ...


all the above ,regarding Dating the composition is mere a gussing work without crucial proofs.....

in light of above ,the claim that John,Luke,Matthew,Mark are the work of the first generation christians and Thomas not,for me is a Joke.

unless we find a serious scholar bless us with a crucial,ultimate proof for the date of composition of BOTH.......
 
Others, such as James, don't mention anything about the life of Christ, only how Christians are to live their lives. .

If the writer chose to write nothing about Jesus and mentions only his own advices,his concept regarding the strong relation between Faith and Works ,his Warning against Boasting ,Warning to the Rich ,Patience and Prayer etc ....we don't have to think for a minute that what he wrote is called a Gospel,unlike The Gospel of Thomas which concerned totally with Jesus and his preaching.....
one should wonder If the writer of Thomas belonged to the Pauline church ,and wrote a Gospel about the lord,not the followers of the Lord,How he provides very different understandings of Jesus,mentions nothing regarding the crucifiction,resurrection(The corner stone of christianity)!!.......
 
. What happened is that the grass roots of the Church, knowing the story of the faith that had been passed down, found some works to be more beneficial than others to helping them perserve their faith and these are the books that became canon while the others were relegated to either slightly lower status or dismissed as being suprious works.

Actually,The Pauline church didn't find some works to be more beneficial than others,it was because the writtings were at odds with the prevailing Pauline agenda.

That is why the Church destroyed most of their Gospels and excuted them for being heretics !!!!

Irenaeus, in the second century, in his work against Heretics, stigmatises them with the most abusive epithets, and accuses them of the most abominable crimes. He calls them "thieves and robbers," "slippery serpents," "miserable little foxes," and so forth, and declares that they practise lewdness in their assemblies.

the mean,aggressive,vulgar attitude towards any writing that one could by reading it smell something against the Pauline agenda,hit not only the so called non-canonical Gospels,but the canonical as well !!!!

the authenticity of the Epistle of James In the first centuries of the Church ,was doubted by some followers of the Pauline church:

1-Theodore, Bishop of Mopsuestia in Cilicia; it is therefore deuterocanonical. It is missing in the Muratorian fragment.

2-because of the silence of several of the western churches regarding it, Eusebius classes it amongst the Antilegomena or contested writings (Historia ecclesiae, 3.25; 2.23).

3-Gaius Marius Victorinus, in his commentary on the Epistle to the Galatians, openly questioned whether the teachings of James were heretical.




4-In Reformation times a few theologians, most notably Martin Luther, argued that this epistle was too defective to be part of the canonical New Testament. This is probably due to the book's specific teaching that faith alone is not enough for salvation (James 2:24), which seemed to contradict his doctrine of sola fide (faith alone).

--"Many sweat to reconcile St. Paul and St. James.... but in vain. 'Faith justifies' and 'faith does not justify' contradict each other flatly. [Isn't it refreshing to hear an avowed apologist, especially one as knowledgeable as Luther, dispense with all the doubletalk and rationalizing by admitting the obvious--ED.). If any one can harmonize them I will give him my doctor's hood and let him call me a fool." The Life and Letters of Martin Luther, by Preserved Smith, p. 269


"We should throw the Epistle of James out of this school (the University of Wittenberg--ED.) for it doesn't amount to much. It contains not a syllable about Christ. Not once does it mention Christ, except at the beginning. I maintain that some Jew wrote it who probably heard about Christian people but never encountered any. Since he heard that Christians place great weight on faith in Christ, he thought, 'wait a moment. I'll oppose them and urge works alone.' This he did.... Besides, there is no order or method in the epistle. Now he discusses clothing and then he writes about wrath and is constantly shifting from one to the other. He presents a comparison: 'As the body apart from the spirit is dead, so faith apart from works is dead.' O Mary, mother of God! What a terrible comparison that is! James compares faith with the body when he should rather have compared faith with the soul! The ancients recognized this, too, and therefore they didn't acknowledge the Book of James as one of the catholic epistles." "Table Talk" in Luther's Works, Vol. 54, p. 424-25


"Therefore, St. James' epistle is really an epistle of straw, compared to these others, for it has nothing of the nature of the gospel about it." Luther's Works, Vol. 35, p. 362


In other words ,just because James' epistle contradict the Pauline agenda in a specific point(Salvation through faith) was said by some Pauline church figures to be rather heretical,and was about to be excluded from the so called Canonical Gospels .

Imagine if the church had ever found writings that contradict the whole Pauline agenda,what would they ever do......

History tells us what they did,and their crimes ,pious forgeries,will pay back for it in day of judgment...


How truth what Thomas Paine wrote!!:

"...the bishop who has answered me has been obliged to acknowledge the fact, that the Books that compose the NT, were voted by yeas and nays to be the word of God, as you now vote a law, by the Popish councils of Nicea and Laodocia, about 1,450 years ago." Works of Thomas Paine. p. 325.

"None of those books have the appearance of being written by the persons whose names they bear, neither do we know who the authors were. They come to us on no other authority than the church of Rome, which the Protestant Priests...call the ***** of Babylon." Ibid., p. 365.
 
Last edited:
Salaam/peace;

ok , show us pl. what proof do u have '' even outside Christianity '' . And how can u be sure that those evidence is correct & Quran is wrong ?

May be , Quran is right & other sources are wrong ????

To us Muslims , Quran is the criteria & to others .....other sources . So , i guess , we will have to wait till last day when all disputes will be solved .

My dear Muslim Woman. I am sorry, would like to discuss matters in a fairly logic manner. Not possible in this case, but thank you for your response.

You see, you can never accept that Jesus died for your sins, and was raised from the dead - thereby washing you from all sin and paying the price for sin on your behalf. Once you accept that, you will have a serious problem, and I do not think you want to give it all up.

It is not about "winning an argument". That is an empty, really empty victory.

And if you want to wait till the last day to find out if you are right or wrong, I would suggest is not a good idea. What if you are wrong? You can know now - and not by winning or loosing an argument.
 
as a spectator to this debate and generally uninterested to be ensnared in its midst, I don't see where you have showed Muslim woman proof especially from the 'outside of christianity'.. frankly there is no historical evidence of Jesus short of the bible, of which, you can't even get two versions to agree!

If Jesus died for our sins, then we are sinless and felicitous in this state of anticlimax.. if the Man God died for our sins, then let's all bathe in sin of which we are undoubtedly forgiven by a self-immolating God!

peace!
 
You see, you can never accept that Jesus died for your sins, and was raised from the dead - thereby washing you from all sin and paying the price for sin on your behalf. Once you accept that, you will have a serious problem.

You assumed the point of(Jesus died for your sins) , that the Bible is truth, . If asked how you know your statements are true, you would probably say, because they are in the Bible. But, instead of asking yourself the Bible is true, you just assumed as much. But I highlight in the thread some problems proved the contrary; it is not the truth. proved the Bible is not to be trusted as a reliable source reagrding the crucifiction,resurrection narratives..

My friend, all you know about the (Jesus died for your sins, and was raised from the dead - thereby washing you from all sin and paying the price for sin on your behalf) comes from Scripture. The validity of such claim depends upon the validity, reliability and accuracy of Scripture.

you would do better if you bring up solutions to the crucifiction,resurrection problems I highlighted in previous posts...If you wish to have a postive discussion with us...

prove the work from which you quote to be inerrant,before you commit yourself to preach...

peace
 
as a spectator to this debate and generally uninterested to be ensnared in its midst, I don't see where you have showed Muslim woman proof especially from the 'outside of christianity'.. frankly there is no historical evidence of Jesus short of the bible, of which, you can't even get two versions to agree!

If Jesus died for our sins, then we are sinless and felicitous in this state of anticlimax.. if the Man God died for our sins, then let's all bathe in sin of which we are undoubtedly forgiven by a self-immolating God!

peace!
Hi PurestAmbrosia. Not to worry, welcome.

The proof outside of Christianity is provided by at least Tacitus, arguably the greatest of Roman historians. He lived from 56 AD to 120 AD. The following quote is taken from Annals 15.44 - his work on Roman history.
"But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero from the infamy of being believed to have ordered the conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius:

Phlegon is another 1st Century historian. In his work called Chronicles, he testifies that darkness came over the land at the time Christ was crucified.

I think that you may have a misconception re Jesus' death for our sins. It is offered to all but very few will accept it in truth.

You may agree that if God is just, sin must be punished. You will see that in the Old Testement as well. Now God will always be the same, and to be true to Himself, must punish sin. Will you think it fair if a murderer of ,say your father, is pardoned without a fair penalty? No. Somebody has to pay. We all have that sense of fairness. Jesus did that for you. You have the choice to accept or reject it.

If we continue to sin with impunity/willingly, we have not received Christ, not born again, and remain in our sin.

After we have given our lives to Christ (I mean all of it) we will still do what is wrong from time to time, as we have a sinful nature and this nature is in continuous "battle" against that which God wants us to do.

I am sorry to agree that the lives of many Christians do not reflect this triumph over sin, we know this is a sorry state of affairs. Especially in these days.
 
It is wonderful that a noted historian was there to witness the death of your God first hand and not base his writing on an a priori judgment some 120 yrs after Jesus (p) !-- I am afraid actually rather should say.. I am glad we don't worship men in Islam! It is unbefitting the magisterate of God!
That is all there really is to it..


إِذَا زُلْزِلَتِ الْأَرْضُ زِلْزَالَهَا {1}
[Pickthal 99:1] When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake

وَأَخْرَجَتِ الْأَرْضُ أَثْقَالَهَا {2}
[Pickthal 99:2] And Earth yieldeth up her burdens,

وَقَالَ الْإِنسَانُ مَا لَهَا {3}​
[Pickthal 99:3] And man saith: What aileth her?

يَوْمَئِذٍ تُحَدِّثُ أَخْبَارَهَا {4}
[Pickthal 99:4] That day she will relate her chronicles,

بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوْحَى لَهَا {5}
[Pickthal 99:5] Because thy Lord inspireth her.

يَوْمَئِذٍ يَصْدُرُ النَّاسُ أَشْتَاتًا لِّيُرَوْا أَعْمَالَهُمْ {6}
[Pickthal 99:6] That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds.

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}
[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}
[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.


*****

I think it is more satisfactory to my instincts and my fitrah to be accountable for my own deeds.. and not need a cartoonish self-immolation of a God x 3 to pay forward for sins I have committed and yet to commit.. I suppose we need to amicably part ways on what we deem logical and acceptable!

peace!
 
If we continue to sin with impunity/willingly, we have not received Christ, not born again, and remain in our sin.

After we have given our lives to Christ (I mean all of it) we will still do what is wrong from time to time, as we have a sinful nature .

QUOTE]

people are wicked and sinful, while confident you abide in Jesus. Yet, the Bible says, "No man who abides in him sins;..." (1 John 3:6). If you abide in him, as you believe, why are you still sinning. Surely you are not saying you no longer sin.

but no wonder,as that is the nature of the style of the NT writers,they exaggerated, preached to excess,reflected their wishful thinking....

Nothing is so biased as someone whose heart precedes his head, whose desire precedes his discretion, whose wish precedes his wisdom.
 
Last edited:
It is wonderful that a noted historian was there to witness the death of your God first hand and not base his writing on an a priori judgment some 120 yrs after Jesus (p) !-- I am afraid actually rather should say.. I am glad we don't worship men in Islam! It is unbefitting the magisterate of God!
That is all there really is to it..


إِذَا زُلْزِلَتِ الْأَرْضُ زِلْزَالَهَا {1}
[Pickthal 99:1] When Earth is shaken with her (final) earthquake

وَأَخْرَجَتِ الْأَرْضُ أَثْقَالَهَا {2}
[Pickthal 99:2] And Earth yieldeth up her burdens,

وَقَالَ الْإِنسَانُ مَا لَهَا {3}​
[Pickthal 99:3] And man saith: What aileth her?

يَوْمَئِذٍ تُحَدِّثُ أَخْبَارَهَا {4}
[Pickthal 99:4] That day she will relate her chronicles,

بِأَنَّ رَبَّكَ أَوْحَى لَهَا {5}
[Pickthal 99:5] Because thy Lord inspireth her.

يَوْمَئِذٍ يَصْدُرُ النَّاسُ أَشْتَاتًا لِّيُرَوْا أَعْمَالَهُمْ {6}
[Pickthal 99:6] That day mankind will issue forth in scattered groups to be shown their deeds.

فَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ خَيْرًا يَرَهُ {7}
[Pickthal 99:7] And whoso doeth good an atom's weight will see it then,

وَمَن يَعْمَلْ مِثْقَالَ ذَرَّةٍ شَرًّا يَرَهُ {8}
[Pickthal 99:8] And whoso doeth ill an atom's weight will see it then.


*****

I think it is more satisfactory to my instincts and my fitrah to be accountable for my own deeds.. and not need a cartoonish self-immolation of a God x 3 to pay forward for sins I have committed and yet to commit.. I suppose we need to amicably part ways on what we deem logical and acceptable!

peace!

Hi there

You will be of interest to note that there are quite a number of history books written by people that did not personally witness events- as matter of fact it would be difficult to make sure you attend all historical events. What will make it even a little more difficult - you will have to know in advance that they are going to happen.

People normally get accepted as scholars of substance when their accounts reflect the truth. There is no dispute from Christians and non-Christians alike that Jesus was crucified. Even the persons of greatest opposition to Christ and His message (the Jewish leadership), who would have loved to prove Jesus wrong , concede that He was crucified - see the Talmud.

So, I am sorry to say, your argument does not hold any water.

You are correct, you are 100% accountable for your own deeds. As you yourself know, you do many things wrong. You will have to pay up!! Justice requires that there be some form of retribution, and you will bear the weight of your own sin. Consider the garden of Eden - satan lied then, and he lies to you now - (do not worry, you will not receive punishment!!)

Do not worry any further then - you will soon stand before a very Holy God and please explain. Consider why the people of the Old Testament (Abraham included) had to sacrifice animals. Does it mean anything to you?

May I suggest, purest Ambriosa, that if you consider God's standard for purity, you may wish to consider a change of name. I do not know you, but I know the human heart (and here agree with Solomon) Pro 20:9 Who can say, I have made my heart clean, I am pure from my sin?

Thank you for your contribution.
 
You assumed the point of(Jesus died for your sins) , that the Bible is truth, . If asked how you know your statements are true, you would probably say, because they are in the Bible. But, instead of asking yourself the Bible is true, you just assumed as much. But I highlight in the thread some problems proved the contrary; it is not the truth. proved the Bible is not to be trusted as a reliable source reagrding the crucifiction,resurrection narratives..

My friend, all you know about the (Jesus died for your sins, and was raised from the dead - thereby washing you from all sin and paying the price for sin on your behalf) comes from Scripture. The validity of such claim depends upon the validity, reliability and accuracy of Scripture.

you would do better if you bring up solutions to the crucifiction,resurrection problems I highlighted in previous posts...If you wish to have a postive discussion with us...

prove the work from which you quote to be inerrant,before you commit yourself to preach...

peace
Hi there.

Great to have a response from you. My response was in respect of a very specific topic - Jesus' crucifixion. The proof was supplied that the Bible is correct in this instance - supported not only by Christian, but also non- Christian sources. I only proved the Bible correct in this instance.

It is a pity that you are trying to confuse the issue. There is one point under discussion- Jesus' crucifixion.

To make it somewhat clearer to you - if any document (for argument's sake), contain truth and lies, it does not invalidate the whole document. The parts that are true, remain true - it cannot change that into a lie. It is very basic, and I assume you will accept this basic logic.

The Koran itself has facts which agree with the Bible - i.e. God created the earth. If you were to say that there are no truths in the Bible, you are invalidating the Koran at the same time.
 
Hi there

You will be of interest to note that there are quite a number of history books written by people that did not personally witness events-

People normally get accepted as scholars of substance when their accounts reflect the truth. .


If a historian did not personally witness extraordinary claim (Resurrection from the dead),and didn't quote eyewitnesses as his source..

How on earth one could safely accept such specific point in his writing!??

why don't you accept the passion,resurrection narratives of Krishna,Osiris as truth,as long as it was mentioned in history books by some historians?
 
There is no dispute from Christians and non-Christians alike that Jesus was crucified. .

not only ,till this moment we have a never-ending dispute between Christians and non-Christians regarding everything about Jesus,(Deity-crucifiction-resurrection etc),but also there was a fierce dispute between early christians regarding the same issues...till the Pauline group won the conflict by calling those who oppose their agenda as heretics and killing them,burning their Gospels....
 
Even the persons of greatest opposition to Christ and His message (the Jewish leadership), who would have loved to prove Jesus wrong , concede that He was crucified - see the Talmud.

.

Thats totally not true !..

If the Jews ever concede that He was crucified ,that would be the greatest proof for their claim that he was a false messiah....
cause the Old Testament messiah if there is anything ,he never be expected to do is to be crucified...

Is there a Jesus Narrative In The Talmud?

http://www.angelfire.com/mt/talmud/jesusnarr.html

and if such narrative is really about Jesus and is historically true,would you accept what the The Talmud claims about Mary and how she got pregnant ?
I don't think so
 
Last edited:
Consider why the people of the Old Testament (Abraham included) had to sacrifice animals. Does it mean anything to you?

.

and the following Old Testament veses ,
Do they mean anything to you?

Ezekiel 18:21-30
"To do righteousness and justice [is] more acceptable to the LORD than sacrifice."

Proverbs 21:3
"For I (God) desired mercy, and not sacrifice; and the knowledge of God more than burnt offerings."


Micah 7:18
"Who [is] a God like unto thee, that pardoneth iniquity, and passeth by the transgression of the remnant of his heritage? he retaineth not his anger for ever, because he delighteth [in] mercy."



Proverbs 16:6
"If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land."

Psalm 78:38-39
"Nevertheless, He (God), [being] full of compassion, forgave [their] iniquity, and destroyed [them] not: yea, many a time turned He His anger away, and did not stir up all his wrath. For He remembered that they [were but] flesh; a wind that passeth away, and cometh not again."


Hosea 6:6
"Wherewith shall I come before the LORD, [and] bow myself before the high God? shall I come before him with burnt offerings, with calves of a year old? Will the LORD be pleased with thousands of rams, [or] with ten thousands of rivers of oil? shall I give my firstborn [for] my transgression, the fruit of my body [for] the sin of my soul? He hath shewed thee, O man, what [is] good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?"

Micah 6:6-8
"To what purpose [is] the multitude of your sacrifices unto me? saith the LORD: I am full of the burnt offerings of rams, and the fat of fed beasts; and I delight not in the blood of bullocks, or of lambs, or of he goats. When ye come to appear before me, who hath required this at your hand, to tread my courts? Bring no more vain oblations; incense is an abomination unto me; the new moons and sabbaths, the calling of assemblies, I cannot away with; [it is] iniquity, even the solemn meeting. Your new moons and your appointed feasts my soul hateth: they are a trouble unto me; I am weary to bear [them]. And when ye spread forth your hands, I will hide mine eyes from you: yea, when ye make many prayers, I will not hear: your hands are full of blood. Wash you, make you clean; put away the evil of your doings from before mine eyes; cease to do evil; Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top