When was the New Testament corrupted?

  • Thread starter Thread starter mattityahu
  • Start date Start date
  • Replies Replies 66
  • Views Views 11K
AntiKarateKid,

It's not a criminal investigation, but a historical one. History, by definition, deals with uncertainty. We should carefully consider the evidence we have, and decide what is the most reasonable account of the past events. Do you claim to have a perfect "paper trail" for your holy book?

Yours,
M
 
Could someone respond to this?

later, In Sha'a Allah

Yours,
M

:sl:

i found this lecture series by Bart Erhman online:

From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity (The Great Courses no. 6577) (Audio CD)

Course Lecture Titles 1. The Birth of Christianity 2. The Religious World of Early Christianity 3. The Historical Jesus 4. Oral and Written Traditions about Jesus 5. The Apostle Paul 6. The Beginning of Jewish-Christian Relations 7. The Anti-Jewish Use of the Old Testament 8. The Rise of Christian Anti-Judaism 9. The Early Christian Mission 10. The Christianization of the Roman Empire 11. The Early Persecutions of the State 12. The Causes of Christian Persecution 13. Christian Reactions to Persecution 14. The Early Christian Apologists 15. The Diversity of Early Christian Communities 16. Christianities of the Second Century 17. The Role of Pseudepigrapha 18. The Victory of the Proto-Orthodox 19. The New Testament Canon 20. The Development of Church Offices 21. The Rise of Christian Liturgy 22. The Beginnings of Normative Theology 23. The Doctrine of the Trinity 24. Christianity and the Conquest of Empire

you can download all 24 lectures here:

http://beemp3.com/download.php?file=2588908&song=The+New+Testament+Canon

#12 was a little tricky, it never showed up on the list, click the link:

More "From Jesus to Constantine: A History of Early Christianity" songs

you'll find it there, In Sha'a Allh.

:w:
 
YusufNoor,

Thanks for this. Hopefully I'll have time after my exams in 3 weeks to listen to these.

Yours,
M
 
You need to read the commentary to understand the verses. Below are the verses with their commentary.

4:136: O you who profess to have believed, believe sincerely in Allah * and His Messenger and the Book which He has sent down to His Messenger and in every Book that He sent down before this: for whoso disbelieves in Allah and His Angels and His Books and His Messengers and the Last Day ** most surely strays far away into deviation.

Commentary:
*Here all those who profess to believe have been told to believe sincerely in the fundamental articles of the Muslim faith with all their implications. This is becuase profession of Faith merely brings one into the fold of Islam but does not satisfy the real demands required of a true Muslim. Therefore one who professes to embrace Islam has been asked to believe sincerely and seriously in Islam and mould one's thoughts, tastes, likes, attitudes and conduct in accordance with one's belief and establish friendship and enmity accordingly, and put in all one's efforts in accordance with one's belief.

** Here "kufr" implies two things: 1) a person may reject Islam outright. 2) One may pay lipservice to Islam but may not (sincerely) believe in it or may show by one's conduct that one does not, in fact, believe in Islam, in spite of one's profession.

Here "kufr" implies both these things and the verse warns that both kinds of "kufr" cannot go side by side with the articles of Islamic faith and will mislead the one away from the Truth into the paths of deviation.


5:46 - 47: Then after those Prophets, We sent Jesus, the son of Mary; he confirmed whatever had still remained intact of the Torah in his time. and We gave him the Injil wherein was Guidance and Light; that, too confirmed what was intact of the Torah* at the time; moreover, it was guidance and admonition for the God-fearing people. We had enjoined that those who were given the Injil should judge by the Law which had been sent down in it: those who do not judge by the Law which Allah has sent down are the transgressors.

* This means that Jesus did not bring any new religion but followed the same way that was followed by all the Prophets before him and invited the people to the same. He believed in what was intact in his time from among the original teachings of the Torah. The Injil also testified the same (Mathew 5 : 17 - 18). The Quraan reiterates this fact over and over again that each and every prophet, who was sent by Allah to any part of the world, confirmed the Message of all the Prophets who had gone before him and exerted his utmost to complete the work which they had left as a holy heritage, for he did not come to refute them or efface their religion and establish his own religion instead. Likewise, Allah did not send down any of His Books to refute any of His own previous Books, but to support and confirm them.


5:48: Then, O Muhammad, We sent this Book to you which has brought the truth: it confirms whatever has remained from the Book * at the time of its revelation and safeguards ** and protects it. Therefore you should judge between the people by the Law sent down by Allah and do not follow their desires by turning aside from the Truth that has come to you. -- We prescribed a law and a way of life for each of you, though your Lord could have made all of you a single community , if He so willed. But (He willed otherwise) in order to test you in what He has bestowed upon each of you: ultimately you shall all return to Him; then He will let you know the truth about that in which you have been differing.

* The use of the word Al-Kitab (the Book) here is very significant. Instead of saying, "The Quraan confirms whatever has remained intact from the former Books," it says, "from the Book." This is to show that the Quraan and all the Books that have been sent down by Allah in different languages and in different ages are in reality one and the same Book which has one and the same Author and one and the same object and aim. They impart one and the same knowledge and teaching to mankind with the only difference that they are couched in different languages and employ different methods to suit the various addressees. Therefore, the fact that these Books support and do not refute, confirm and do not contradict one another, shows that they are all different versions of one and the same Book (Al-Kitab).

** The Arabic word Muhaimin is very comprehensive in meaning. It means one who safeguards, watches over, stands witness, preserves, and upholds. The Quraan safeguards "the Book," for it has preserved within it the teachings of all the former Books. It watches over them in the sense that it will not let go waste their true teachings. It supports and upholds these Books in the sense that it corroborates the Word of God which has remained intact in them. It stands a witness because it bears testimony to the Word of God contained in those Books and helps to sort it out from the interpretations and commentaries of the people which were mixed with it; what is confirmed by the Quraan is the Word of God and what is against it is that of the people.



5:68: Say (O Muhammad SAW) "O People of the Book, you have no valid ground to stand on unless you observe the Torah and the Injil and the other Books which have been sent down to you from your Lord.

Commentary: "To observe the Torah and the Injil" means to follow their teachings sincerely and to follow the code of life laid down in them.

In this connection, one must keep in mind that the Bible contains two kinds of writings. Some portions in them have been interpolated by the Jewish and the Christian scholars. It is obvious that the Quraan does not demand the observance of these parts. But there are other portions that have been put down as the Commandments of God or as the sayings of Moses, Jesus, and other Prophets (Allah's pean be upon them all). The Quraan demands the observance of the latter parts only, for there is no marked difference between the teachings contained in them and those of the Quraan. Though even these parts of the Bible have not remained wholly intact and have been tampered with by the translators,the commentators, etc., nevertheless, one does feel that these teach teh same fundamental principles of the Faith that the Quraan teaches, and guides man to the same way of life that has been laid down in the Quraan. Thus it is clear that, if the Jews and the Christians had been following those teachings which have been attributed to God and their Prophets in teh Bible, most surely they would have been a community of righteous people at the time when Muhammad (Allah's peace be upon him) was sent as a Messenger and would have readily recognized that the Quraan contained the same Message that was contained in the former Books. In that case, for, then, there would have been no question of changing religion: this would have been a continuation of the same way that they were following before.

(Translation and Commentary from the Meaning of Quran by Saeed Abu Ala' Maududi)

(More later, insha-Allah)
 
So the Injeel was revealed, and written down correctly, am I right? Then, according to Islam, the early Christians added to and took away from the Injeel - giving us the New Testament. Seems fairly clear to me that this is the same as saying the New Testament is a corrupted version of the Injeel.

Could someone who knows more about the matter explain all this?

Thanks,
M

:sl:

there is no concrete evidence that the Injeel was preserved in writing. most of those who followed Jesus were the poor and the destitute as it APPEARS [in the NT] that he was rejected by the learned.

all of the "Gospels" are stories about Jesus. they do include and appear to "evolve" over time. we CANNOT tell EXACTLY what the Message of Jesus was because we have no revelation telling us EXACTLY what it was. we know, it would include whatever the Qur'an and the Hadeeth tell us. what IS explained to us is:

1) [4.157] And their saying: Surely we have killed the Messiah, Isa son of Marium, the apostle of Allah; and they did not kill him nor did they crucify him, but it appeared to them so (like Isa) and most surely those who differ therein are only in a doubt about it; they have no knowledge respecting it, but only follow a conjecture, and they killed him not for sure.

2) [5.46] And We sent after them in their footsteps Isa, son of Marium, verifying what was before him of the Taurat and We gave him the Injeel in which was guidance and light, and verifying what was before it of Taurat and a guidance and an admonition for those who guard (against evil).

3) [5.110] When Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! Remember My favor on you and on your mother, when I strengthened you I with the holy Spirit, you spoke to the people in the cradle and I when of old age, and when I taught you the Book and the wisdom and the Taurat and the Injeel; and when you determined out of clay a thing like the form of a bird by My permission, then you breathed into it and it became a bird by My permission, and you healed the blind and the leprous by My permission; and when you brought forth the dead by My permission; and when I withheld the children of Israel from you when you came to them with clear arguments, but those who disbelieved among them said: This is nothing but clear enchantment

4) [5.116] And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things

5) [61.6] And when Isa son of Marium said: O children of Israel! surely I am the apostle of Allah to you, verifying that which is before me of the Taurat and giving the good news of an Apostle who will come after me, his name being Ahmad, but when he came to them with clear arguments they said: This is clear magic.

and while NOT a part of the 5:116, although some here always try to infer it:

6) [4.171] O followers of the Book! do not exceed the limits in your religion, and do not speak (lies) against Allah, but (speak) the truth; the Messiah, Isa son of Marium is only an apostle of Allah and His Word which He communicated to Marium and a spirit from Him; believe therefore in Allah and His apostles, and say not, Three [aka Trinity]. Desist, it is better for you; Allah is only one God; far be It from His glory that He should have a son, whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth is His, and Allah is sufficient for a Protector.

that's, while not all, what the major issues are dealing with Jesus in the Qur'an and Allahu Alum. could we extract EVERY ayat about Jesus in the Qur'an and say that THIS is the ENTIRE Injeel. well, we could, but that would be without guidance and we would be "inventing a lie about Allah." if it were necessary for us to know the Injeel, Allah would have revealed it to us.

i will, In Sha'a Allah, address some other question/comments/points in the near future.

:w:
 
All he did was ramble a bit about how "HE WAS CORRECT" and then quoted a couple of verses of the Qur'an about how we accept Jesus as the Son of God and that we (Gentiles) don't follow the Jewish cleanliness laws in the Torah. Yes Jesus mission was to give his message to the Jews, as you say, to unite them (in their worship and purpose). How does his message not do this?

Yours,
M

yeah, he does that! :D

He kept all of the Laws in the Torah. He often rejected the Oral Law of the Pharisees. He fulfilled the purpose of Israel to bring blessing to the whole whole. The cleanliness laws of the Torah are for the Jews in order for them to be a holy, set apart people. The Gentiles did not need to keep the cleanliness laws, as is taught in the Talmud (Jewish Rabbinic teaching in OT times). He gave the apostles authority to "bind and loose" - that is, to decide which of the cleanliness laws the Gentiles needed to keep now that they could enter into a covenant with Yahweh.

Yours,
M

one of the common misconceptions about Jesus as a Jewish preacher would be that he rejected Law of the Pharisees. what he rejected was that Sadducees AND the Law of the house of Shimmei! while the [alleged] words of Jesus himself originated in the house of Hillel. that is why some of the Pharisees were so attracted to him.

i did some searching for you to give some examples:

he rulings of the House of Hillel represent the ultimate in conformity to the divine will, while the rulings of the House of Shammai represent an ideal that is too lofty for our present state (which is why we perceive them as “stricter” and more confining), and can only be realized on the conceptual level. In the era of Messiah, the situation will be reversed: a perfected world will embrace the more exacting application of Torah law expressed by the House of Shammai, while the Hillelian school of interpretation will endure only conceptually.
http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/biography/hillel.html

Hillel addressed to him the immortal words, 'That which is hateful to you, do not do to your fellow. That is the entire Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and learn.'
http://www.jewishmag.com/40mag/shamai/shamai.htm

"Love people and bring them close to Torah."
http://www.saratogachabad.com/mainpages/Avot/1_3converts.htm

Broadly speaking, there is a fundamental difference between the two schools in their interpretation of Scripture. The Shammaites tend to interpret a biblical verse quite literally, whereas the Hillelites pay greater heed to its underlying purpose. An examination of ancient extra-tannaitic sources (e.g., the Apocrypha) reveals that Bet Shammai almost invariably follows the older halakhah, which was noted for its severity. Modern scholars therefore treat the Shammaites as conservatives and the Hillelites as liberals.
http://www.answers.com/topic/bet-shammai-and-bet-hillel

We have discussed the rift between the Pharisees (the mainstream Jews) and the Sadducees (the Jews who only followed the Written Torah, making up their own interpretations). We also explained how Herod’s massacres of rabbis and interference with the Temple hierarchy (not to mention his efforts at further Hellenizing the Jews) contributed to widespread corruption within the priesthood.

The schools of Hillel and Shammai are famous for their disputes in Jewish law. One of these concerned whether one should tell a bride on her wedding day that she is beautiful even if this is not true. The school of Shammai held that in this situation it would be wrong to lie. The school of Hillel held that a bride is always beautiful on her wedding day. (Talmud, Ketubot 16b-17a) The school of Hillel won the dispute. Indeed, Jewish law today almost always agrees with the school of Hillel. The Talmud (Eruvin 13b) explains why:

A heavenly voice declared: “The words of both schools are the words of the living God, but the law follows the rulings of the school of Hillel.”

So why does the law follow the rulings of the school of Hillel? The Talmud explains that the disciples of Hillel were gentle and modest, and studied both their own opinions and the opinions of the other school, and humbly mentioned the words of the other school before their own.
http://www.simpletoremember.com/articles/a/hillel_and_shammai/

"The young men of Jerusalem told me," said Natanel, "that the students of Hillel outnumber the students of Shammai, because Hillel is extremely humble and receives every man in joy. Shammai is very prickly, and if a man doesn't impress him in speaking to him, he will drive him away with rebukes. I am very dismayed by rebukes, and on account of this I will be a Rabbi like Hillel and not Shammai."
http://www.fonerbooks.com/derech.htm

A Gentile came to Shammai with the strange request that he be taught the entire Torah, but that it be done during the time he could stand on one foot! It is recounted that Shammai, a surveyor by trade, chased him away with a cubit stick. When this Gentile approached Hillel with the same request, instead of being scolded for such an impudent demand, he was told, “What is hateful to you, do not to your fellowman. This is the entire Torah. All the rest is commentary — now go and study.” The parallels with Hillel’s statement are readily recognized in Jesus’ statement in Matthew 7:12 and Paul’s “summary” in Galatians 5:14.
http://www.pfo.org/pharisee.htm

At an early age Jesus became a Rabbi of the House of Hillel. He saw himself as a reformer, trying to work within his own tradition to improve it.
http://www.theteachingsofjesus.blogspot.com/2006/09/jesus-was-rabbi-on-hillel-side.html

As a Jewish Rabbi, I understand Jesus’ Jewishness. This article treats the Historical Jesus and not the Jesus of Christian Faith who is ‘the Way and the Truth and the Life’. That is not part of my or Jesus’ tradition. Those definitions of faith to Jews are the Tnakh (Old Testament) and its oral commentary which continues until today. What is acceptable in my tradition is Jesus as a potential Jewish Messiah who was crucified in 30 CE. From my perspective and analysis of the scriptures and other texts I view Jesus as a charismatic radical Jewish Rabbi. In some ways he is comparable to the radical Prophet Jeremiah almost killed by the Jews several times, the Priests from Qumran who rejected the Temple and its Priesthood, Rabbi Hillel the Elder, the greatest sage of his day who during Jesus’ lifetime was considered a dangerous radical and Honi Ha’magil (the Circle Maker) a charismatic and miracle worker who called God ‘Abba’ – Father - and who made demands of his Abba. 1
http://www.moshereiss.org/christianity/03_hillel/03_hillel.htm

i'm hoping that i cleared up everything EXCEPT your last questions, which i will attempt to reply to soon, In Sha'a Allah.

:w:
 

Similar Threads

Back
Top