Eesa and Abdullah are the 2 in the Is the Bible Corrupted Series.
but seriously, i really, REALLY can't stand Jay.
give a guy a break, eh?
When was the New Testament corrupted?
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Eesa and Abdullah are the 2 in the Is the Bible Corrupted Series.
but seriously, i really, REALLY can't stand Jay.
give a guy a break, eh?
mattityahu
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Eesa and Abdullah are the 2 in the Is the Bible Corrupted Series.
but seriously, i really, REALLY can't stand Jay.
give a guy a break, eh?
It doesn't seem fair because it isn't. If I currently agree with Jay on this topic does that make me an idiot? The reality is that Eesa and Abdullah's understanding of Christian views of Inspiration and Canonisation are pretty simplistic and not at all representative of mainstream Christian teaching (if there is such a thing these days...I digress). Moreover, they didn't respond to Jay's video whatsoever by addressing the verses he quoted, or any of his arguments about historical evidence. I can't remember the verses he quoted - shall I watch the idiot again?
Yours,
M
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gah! i shall attempt to watch it. as you can see, i put it off for over 24 hours.
so i shall TRY to watch it and attempt to answer your question, In Sha'a Allah.
but...i'm ...not ...looking ...forward ...to...it...
SubhannAllah, that WAS painful!
in response to when was the Bible corrupted?
BEFORE it was even put together! the VAST MAJORITY of "Christian" beliefs were perverted during and after, Jesus ministry! i would venture a guess, "based upon the New Testament", that we can conclude the Jesus' ministry ended on or about Wednesday, April 25, 31AD.
THUS, the corruption of "Christianity" can said to have begun In Judea, on or about Wednesday, April 25, 31AD.
as far as the "New Testament" itself is concerned, MY position, WHICH IS THE CORRECT ONE, is that is was corrupted BEFORE it was ever written! and Allahu Alum!
however, once written, it was also corrupted/changed and translations are TO THIS DAY currently being corrupted. i can show some in another thread, In Sha'a Allah.
you see, Christians pull a "bait and switch," rather than deal with what the Qur'an says, they ask Muslims to "show me the exact time and place that my books were changed." [what's EXTREMELY amusing about this is that in regard to those documents that CANNOT and WILL NOT produce "the exact time and place" that the books were written OR who wrote them!]
the Qur'an however says, is Surat At Tawbah:
30: Muhsin Khan: And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
31: Muhsin Khan: They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God - Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."
so if you read that, you will see that Islam claims 2 things in regard to Christianity:
1) you now claim that Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon both of them, is the son of God.
2) you obey your leaders in regards to what is lawful and unlawful. in other words, you don't follow the way/"Sunnah" of Jesus. [you pretty much follow the corruption began by Paul.] some examples would be:
a) you eat pork
b) you eat shellfish
c) you eat other non-Kosher food.
d) you break the Sabbath
e) you don't honor Jewish Holy Days.
IN ALL of the above, you have "associated partners with Allah.
i have now answered your questions, exept Jays, although i addressed some of them.
how am i doing?
mattityahu
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SubhannAllah, that WAS painful!
in response to when was the Bible corrupted?
BEFORE it was even put together! the VAST MAJORITY of "Christian" beliefs were perverted during and after, Jesus ministry! i would venture a guess, "based upon the New Testament", that we can conclude the Jesus' ministry ended on or about Wednesday, April 25, 31AD.
THUS, the corruption of "Christianity" can said to have begun In Judea, on or about Wednesday, April 25, 31AD.
as far as the "New Testament" itself is concerned, MY position, WHICH IS THE CORRECT ONE, is that is was corrupted BEFORE it was ever written! and Allahu Alum!
however, once written, it was also corrupted/changed and translations are TO THIS DAY currently being corrupted. i can show some in another thread, In Sha'a Allah.
you see, Christians pull a "bait and switch," rather than deal with what the Qur'an says, they ask Muslims to "show me the exact time and place that my books were changed." [what's EXTREMELY amusing about this is that in regard to those documents that CANNOT and WILL NOT produce "the exact time and place" that the books were written OR who wrote them!]
the Qur'an however says, is Surat At Tawbah:
30: Muhsin Khan: And the Jews say: 'Uzair (Ezra) is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: Messiah is the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouths. They imitate the saying of the disbelievers of old. Allah's Curse be on them, how they are deluded away from the truth!
31: Muhsin Khan: They (Jews and Christians) took their rabbis and their monks to be their lords besides Allah (by obeying them in things which they made lawful or unlawful according to their own desires without being ordered by Allah), and (they also took as their Lord) Messiah, son of Maryam (Mary), while they (Jews and Christians) were commanded [in the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel)) to worship none but One Ilah (God - Allah) La ilaha illa Huwa (none has the right to be worshipped but He). Praise and glory be to Him, (far above is He) from having the partners they associate (with Him)."
so if you read that, you will see that Islam claims 2 things in regard to Christianity:
1) you now claim that Jesus/Isa ibn Marriam, May Allah's Peace and Blessings be upon both of them, is the son of God.
2) you obey your leaders in regards to what is lawful and unlawful. in other words, you don't follow the way/"Sunnah" of Jesus. [you pretty much follow the corruption began by Paul.] some examples would be:
a) you eat pork
b) you eat shellfish
c) you eat other non-Kosher food.
d) you break the Sabbath
e) you don't honor Jewish Holy Days.
IN ALL of the above, you have "associated partners with Allah.
i have now answered your questions, exept Jays, although i addressed some of them.
how am i doing?
Saying "MY VIEW IS THE CORRECT ONE" is not evidence of your position. Do you have any historical evidence of what Jesus' message was before it was altered and written in the Gospels?
I would certainly be interested in modern corruptions of the Greek New Testament manuscripts.
Yours,
M
جوري
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To the contrary he cemented his view with how deranged Christianity is from that which preceded it. Jesus' message shouldn't be deviant from that which was all along, given:
International Standard Version (©2008)
But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."New American Standard Bible (©1995)
But He answered and said, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
Jesus responded, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."
King James Bible
But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American King James Version
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
American Standard Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Bible in Basic English
But he made answer and said, I was sent only to the wandering sheep of the house of Israel.
Douay-Rheims Bible
And he answering, said: I was not sent but to the sheep that are lost of the house of Israel.
Darby Bible Translation
But he answering said, I have not been sent save to the lost sheep of Israel's house.
English Revised Version
But he answered and said, I was not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Webster's Bible Translation
But he answered and said, I am not sent but to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.
Weymouth New Testament
"I have only been sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel," He replied.
World English Bible
But he answered, "I wasn't sent to anyone but the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
Young's Literal Translation
and he answering said, 'I was not sent except to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.'
one would assume that his message should be in keeping with that of Moses, Abraham, Issac and the clan, not turn into a man/god/spirit -- he was sent to the Jews to unite them, not make them worship him!
all the best
i don't know if i wrote the Ayats in the proper order, but let me respond to the vid, In Sha'a Allah
Jay wants use THIS ayat as confirming Christianity AND you claim to agree with him!
well then , Alhumdulillah, you BOTH agree that Muhammad [PBUH] was written in the Torah and the Injeel! Allahu Akbar!
that says ask the People of the Book if Allah sent Prophets before. you WOULD agree with that, wouldn't you?
it says NOT to argue, but to DISCUSS "WITH SOMETHING BETTER"; which is defined as: good words and in good manner, inviting them to Islamic Monotheism with (The Qur'an) except with those of YOU who do wrong, then tell them:"We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you; our Ilah (God) and your Ilah (God) is One (i.e. Allah), and to Him we have submitted (as Muslims)."
that says we believe in ALL of the Original Scriptures/Messages given by Allah. AND if you don't, then you have INDEED strayed far away! i'm beginning to wonder why Jay has chosen all of these Ayats. they ALL confirm Islam!
OK, that says that Jesus confirmed the Torah and was given the Injeel. are yo telling me that BOTH you and Jay ARE in agreement with that?
it also says that whoever does not judge by whjat Allah has revealed which includes in the VERY NEXT AYAT,
the Quran, that you ARE in rebellion. again, are you telling me that BOTH you and Jay AGREE with that as well?!
and finally:
AND you AGREE with THAT! Alhumdulillah!
why don't you take your Shahadah today!
Ash-hadu anla ilaha illal-Lahu Wahdahu la Sharika Lahu wa-ash-hadu anna Muhammadan abduhu wa rasuluhu
The English translation of the Shahadah is as follows:
I bear witness that there is none worthy of worship except Allah, the One, without any partner. And I bear witness that Muhammad is His servant and His Messenger.
mattityahu
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All he did was ramble a bit about how "HE WAS CORRECT" and then quoted a couple of verses of the Qur'an about how we accept Jesus as the Son of God and that we (Gentiles) don't follow the Jewish cleanliness laws in the Torah. Yes Jesus mission was to give his message to the Jews, as you say, to unite them (in their worship and purpose). How does his message not do this?
Yours,
M
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actually the only person slobbering drivel thus far has been you.
he wrote and I quote him:
you wanted to know what the message of Jesus was, I quoted you from your bible, that Jesus came for the lost sheep of the Jews.. he (Jesus) p. should be in keeping with the laws of the Torah for that particular crowd... how did that translate to abrogation of the OT, plus the indoctrination of all of man/kind to christian paganism is beyond me..
all the best
mattityahu
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YusufNoor,
The Message and Good News Bible are not corruptions of the Greek New Testament - they are translations, just as you have many translations of the Qur'an. Different translations meet with varying degrees of success in terms of accuracy, as I'm sure you find with the Qur'an also. This says nothing but translation is difficult, especially with ancient languages.
I hardly think Jay is saying he is agreeing with what the Qur'an says, he's simply quoting what your Qur'an teaches about the Scriptures.
1. Surah 10:94
Why would Allah point you towards corrupted scriptures to confirm what He is saying?
2. Surah 21:7
How can we confirm that Allah sent prophets before Mohammed if we cannot trust our own scriptures?
3. Surah 29:46
This verse says that Muslims should be in agreement with what was revealed to the Christians. But as we know from the Qur'an, the Christians (at the time of Mohammed) believed that the Scriptures revealed to them that Jesus was the Son of God. The verse can't be talking about what was originally revealed before the message was corrupted - after all, why agree with the Christians about their understanding of revelation if this is the case?
4. Surah 4:136
What's the point in confirming the Scriptures as originally revealed if the original message no longer exists?
5. Surah 5:46-48
Pretty much similar comments to those above.
6. Surah 5:68
Why would Allah command us to act according to a corrupted Gospel?
Your own Scriptures confirm that we should follow the scriptures as they were known to the Christians at the time of Mohammed. But we still use these Scriptures today!
Yours,
M
The Message and Good News Bible are not corruptions of the Greek New Testament - they are translations, just as you have many translations of the Qur'an. Different translations meet with varying degrees of success in terms of accuracy, as I'm sure you find with the Qur'an also. This says nothing but translation is difficult, especially with ancient languages.
I hardly think Jay is saying he is agreeing with what the Qur'an says, he's simply quoting what your Qur'an teaches about the Scriptures.
1. Surah 10:94
Why would Allah point you towards corrupted scriptures to confirm what He is saying?
2. Surah 21:7
How can we confirm that Allah sent prophets before Mohammed if we cannot trust our own scriptures?
3. Surah 29:46
This verse says that Muslims should be in agreement with what was revealed to the Christians. But as we know from the Qur'an, the Christians (at the time of Mohammed) believed that the Scriptures revealed to them that Jesus was the Son of God. The verse can't be talking about what was originally revealed before the message was corrupted - after all, why agree with the Christians about their understanding of revelation if this is the case?
4. Surah 4:136
What's the point in confirming the Scriptures as originally revealed if the original message no longer exists?
5. Surah 5:46-48
Pretty much similar comments to those above.
6. Surah 5:68
Why would Allah command us to act according to a corrupted Gospel?
Your own Scriptures confirm that we should follow the scriptures as they were known to the Christians at the time of Mohammed. But we still use these Scriptures today!
Yours,
M
mattityahu
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He kept all of the Laws in the Torah. He often rejected the Oral Law of the Pharisees. He fulfilled the purpose of Israel to bring blessing to the whole whole. The cleanliness laws of the Torah are for the Jews in order for them to be a holy, set apart people. The Gentiles did not need to keep the cleanliness laws, as is taught in the Talmud (Jewish Rabbinic teaching in OT times). He gave the apostles authority to "bind and loose" - that is, to decide which of the cleanliness laws the Gentiles needed to keep now that they could enter into a covenant with Yahweh.
Yours,
M
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lols, let's say I agree with the above... shouldn't the logical thing, that Jews be extinct by now and not by mass genocide as your forefathers have tried but by fulfillment of promise?
Fact is, Christianity not only abrogated the moral laws and the covenant with Abraham, but it brought a new religion all together.. a paganist one with idols and multi-goded system.. and that is actually the reason Jews don't buy into christianity neither do Mandeans or Sabeans or Muslims, or any of the folks on the path of Abraham, past or present!
all the best
AntiKarateKid
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I don't get why this has gone on for so long.
When did the New Testament get corrupted? When you lost parts of the paper trail. For criminal investigations, you need to know where the evidence has been at every moment in time. Even a small uncertainty invalidates it.
Don't you think we should give our holy books the same treatment?
When did the New Testament get corrupted? When you lost parts of the paper trail. For criminal investigations, you need to know where the evidence has been at every moment in time. Even a small uncertainty invalidates it.
Don't you think we should give our holy books the same treatment?
i shall deal with some of the above posts later, In Sha'a Allah.
BUT, as Richard Elliott Friedman is my expert for the corruptions of the Torah; Bert Ehrman is my new "New Testament" guru!
have a watch:
http://www.bartdehrman.com/flv_comedycentral/comedy_central.htm
i'm also trying to find a page i had this morning that spoke to the issue of how NO 2 surviving Greek manuscripts are the same. that would indicate that EVERY SINGLE manuscript has been corrupted! [can i get giddy now?
]can the OP please post the "where & when as well as who" for ANY SINGLE BOOK in the New Testament? this would be a great help?
mattityahu
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i shall deal with some of the above posts later, In Sha'a Allah.
BUT, as Richard Elliott Friedman is my expert for the corruptions of the Torah; Bert Ehrman is my new "New Testament" guru!
have a watch:
http://www.bartdehrman.com/flv_comedycentral/comedy_central.htm
i'm also trying to find a page i had this morning that spoke to the issue of how NO 2 surviving Greek manuscripts are the same. that would indicate that EVERY SINGLE manuscript has been corrupted! [can i get giddy now?
can the OP please post the "where & when as well as who" for ANY SINGLE BOOK in the New Testament? this would be a great help?
The differences in the manuscripts are more than 99% accounted for by more by scribal mistakes. We would expect minor errors when copying documents (just try copying out the New Testament yourself without making any errors), and these are trivial to check which words are in the original and which aren't just by looking at the proportion of manuscripts with each variant. The other differences are where sections have been added to the manuscripts (not taken away) and just looking at the literary style confirms this. To claim corruption would be to claim that you know what the originals said, and there is no historical evidence that can be used to somehow guess at a reconstruction of what the originals would have said if they had been different.
As to whether the originals, accurately or otherwise, represent the historical beginning of the Christian faith is another question, but pretty much all of modern scholarship on the topics of the Historical Jesus and the like assume the validity of the New Testament books as historical document. Their intrinsic historical attention to detail confirm that they are genuine historical documents from the first century. The Qur'an, on the other hand, even denies the historicity of the crucifixion, which is attested to even in extra-biblical sources.
I'm no expert on the dating and authorship of the NT books - I only know that the lack of mention of the destruction of the Jewish temple in AD 70 suggests that most were written before this time. Paul is certainly the author of at least 7 of the letters, and Luke is almost certainly the author of Luke and Acts. Eyewitness details in the gospel accounts suggest that some of Jesus' disciples were certainly involved in the other 3 gospels.
This is still something I'm looking into in more detail (Bart Ehrman's work in particular), but the more I research about it, the more the evidence confirms that the New Testament wasn't corrupted later by the Early Church.
Yours,
M
AntiKarateKid
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The errors are certainly not minor. Here is a snippet of a major error. Can't they even get the background to the betrayer of Jesus correct?
1. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money to the priests before
dying, then he went to hang himself. After that, the priests
bought a field. In Acts, Judas used the money himself to buy a
field.
2. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money before dying, and then a
field was bought. In Acts, the field was bought before Judas died.
3. In Matthew, he died by hanging himself, whilst in Acts he fell
headlong and his bowels gushed out.
1. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money to the priests before
dying, then he went to hang himself. After that, the priests
bought a field. In Acts, Judas used the money himself to buy a
field.
2. In Matthew, Judas threw away the money before dying, and then a
field was bought. In Acts, the field was bought before Judas died.
3. In Matthew, he died by hanging himself, whilst in Acts he fell
headlong and his bowels gushed out.
mattityahu
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Even if contradictions existed in the original documents, this does not show that they were corrupted. Anyhow, great big lists of alleged contradictions have been written (for both the bible and the qur'an) and responses to all of them can be found on the net. Just search for "how did Judas die?" or something similar.
Yours,
M
AntiKarateKid
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Anyone care to respond to this?
mattityahu
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