Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

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I'm afraid you got it wrong phil, God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) fought those who fought him. The pagans wanted to eradicate Islaam, so they fought, and permission was given by God to fight back. Why wouldn't it be? How else was one supposed to defend their faith? To let the enemy kill them all?


And i don't think you understand who Abraham is;

Ye People of the Book! Why dispute ye about Abraham, when the Law and the Gospel Were not revealed Till after him? Have ye no understanding?

Ah! Ye are those who fell to disputing (Even) in matters of which ye had some knowledge! but why dispute ye in matters of which ye have no knowledge? It is Allah Who knows, and ye who know not!

Abraham was not a Jew nor yet a Christian; but he was true in Faith, and bowed his will to Allah's (Which is Islam), and he joined not gods with Allah.

Without doubt, among men, the nearest of kin to Abraham, are those who follow him, as are also this Prophet and those who believe: And Allah is the Protector of those who have faith.

It is the wish of a section of the People of the Book to lead you astray. But they shall lead astray (Not you), but themselves, and they do not perceive!


[Qur'an 3: 65-9]


Abraham was a pure monotheist, it is the way of the polytheists to actually worship other humans as 'intercessors' with God, or other stone rocks etc. It is totally against the OT's teachings that God is in 3 parts, ALL the Messengers' of God called to the worship of our Creator and Sustainer ALONE, and this was the exact same call of Jesus son of Mary (peace be upon him.)

If you're amazed at his special creation, know that Adam was created without a father nor a mother. And his wife was created without any parents either, yet they were humans. And Mary was from their lineage, and without a doubt her son was Jesus, the Messiah. God is way above of having children of any sort, since He has no partner or no equals. And He is Alone worthy of worship.




Regards.
 
Phil like always I do respect your belief and welcome your honest opinions.

I am quite confused by Philippians 2.

Philippians 2:
3. Let nothing be done through selfish ambition or conceit, but in lowliness of mind let each esteem others better than himself.
4. Let each of you look out not only for his own interests, but also for the interests of others.
5. Let this mind be in you which was also in Christ Jesus,
6. who, being in the form of God, did not consider it robbery to be equal with God,
7. but made Himself of no reputation, taking the form of a servant, and coming in the likeness of men.
8. And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself and became obedient to the point of death, even the death of the cross.
9. Therefore God also has highly exalted Him and given Him the name which is above every name,
10. that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth,
11. and that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

I see that as a statement that Jesus(as) was not God(swt) but, that God(swt) elevated him to a status above all other men. Just my opinion, astragfirullah

In context, we must consider what Jesus was before He humbled Himself and then what He is exalted to after His humiliation. Initially, He was in the form of God and equal with God (v.6). He then humbles Himself to take on a human form, the form of a servant (v.7). Then, after His death on the cross, God (the Father) exalts Him to a position in which His name is above every name, so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of those in heaven, and of those on earth, and of those under the earth, confessing that He is LORD to the glory of God the Father. Now, what would you call people bowing on knees to Jesus and confessing that HE is LORD, but worship? It's not just "a status above all other men," as you say. It is worship, as God. So, He returns to His original position of being equal with God (v.6).

This is consistent with Jesus' prayer in the Garden before His crucifixion, as recorded in John 17:5 --- "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

If Jesus were only a man, could He had prayed that way? No, based on Isaiah 42:8 --- "I am the Lord, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."
 
If Jesus chose to go to the cross, or to obey God Who sent Him to the cross, it is not a matter of "honor" or being too "honorable" for that to occur. In my opinion, Muhammad could not conceive of such a thing being honorable or good. To him it spelled defeat for Jesus and victory for His enemies, so his "revelation" from Gabriel was to deny that that could have occurred.

Consider the mindset of Muhammad at that time. He was fighting off enemies of monotheism, with that belief being HIS "killer point" to end all points. He was not considering redemption or atonement or anything remotely close to "the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." Christianity, as HE saw it, was idolatry and anything BUT monotheism, with the "worship" or veneration of Mary, various saints, statues, relics, etc. Rather than simply correct those excesses, he went to the other extreme and denied the Deity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sins.

So he accomplished the denial of any worship that he saw as not being to God alone, but destroyed the only means today by which a person can receive forgiveness of sins---the atoning sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) had ended up in Islam as being a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not of God, not right, and it doesn't even make sense.


Salaam,

Wish to correct you

First off,the words of the quran did not originate from Propeht Muhammad saw,he is not the author but Allah.

In that time,the wahyu that came down was simple and staright forward.

worship ONE GOD not many
do not worship idols.

Also the christian did not portrya a big part in Mecca so there were no inlfueces to distort the message
while the Chrisitan worshiped Prophet Jesus as god,the Meccan at that time had 300++ idols,god's.

Also,in Islam as it is in Judasim,Allah need not blood to flow to forgive.
Nor does Allah require a sacrifice to forgive.

Allah is the most Merciful
 
then what He is exalted to after His humiliation.

God can get humiliated??!??

Initially, He was in the form of God and equal with God (v.6). He then humbles Himself to take on a human form, the form of a servant (v.7). Then, after His death on the cross, God (the Father) exalts Him to a position in which His name is above every name,
you are confirming with this statement, that there are at least 2 Gods, Jesus and his Father, so they are not the "ONE TRUE GOD" with different manifestations.

It's not just "a status above all other men," as you say. It is worship, as God. So, He returns to His original position of being equal with God (v.6).

yes that's why Qur'an says,
4:171.
O People of the Scripture! Do not exaggerate in your religion nor utter aught concerning Allah save the truth. The Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, was only a messenger of Allah, and His word which He conveyed unto Mary, and a spirit from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers, and say not "Three" - Cease! (it is) better for you! - Allah is only One Allah. Far is it removed from His Transcendent Majesty that He should have a son. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is in the earth. And Allah is sufficient as Defender.

This is consistent with Jesus' prayer in the Garden before His crucifixion, as recorded in John 17:5 --- "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."

I dont understand, how can God pray to God, or if you say "One God with different manifestations" , how can God pray to himself?

This is consistent with Jesus' prayer in the Garden before His crucifixion, as recorded in John 17:5 --- "And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was."
If Jesus were only a man, could He had prayed that way? No, based on Isaiah 42:8 --- "I am the Lord, that is My name; and My glory I will not give to another, nor My praise to graven images."

He wouldn't. and He didn't . But do you feel proud about such a prayer??
 
Also,in Islam as it is in Judasim,Allah need not blood to flow to forgive.
Nor does Allah require a sacrifice to forgive.

Surah Hajj 22:37.
There does not reach Allah their flesh nor their blood, but to Him is acceptable the guarding (against evil) on your part; thus has He made them subservient to you, that you may magnify Allah because He has guided you aright; and give good news to those who do good (to others).
 
Wow, you hit the nail on the head when you say, it is an unimaginably scary/fearful thought to stand before Allah with nothing but your belief in One God and your attempts at worship, etc. I am afraid for you, and I really mean that. I wish there was something I could do to help you see the error of your way in giving up that "security blanket" as you call it. Only the blood of Jesus can wash away your sins and you have cast it off. Wow. Scary can hardly describe it.

And for what? To embrace "Tawheed"? But is believing there is one God (which Christians believe too, believe it or not) going to save you from hell?
Perhaps that is the most telling point of all - that I would be willing to reject that guaranteed "get out of Hell, free" card (which is believing that Jesus is the Son of God and that he died on the cross for my sins) and to rather accept the uncertainity of standing before Allah with nothing but my belief in One God and striving to follow the Sunnah of Prophet Muhammad. Perhaps, I have come to believe to my core that the "card" is merely a piece of paper with a few words written on it and has no more value than Monopoly money. I choose to believe that Allah has no son or partner and have faith that His Mercy is sufficient for me. The doubts come in when I remember how poorly I compare to the model for how to live my life and how to worship Allah.

Are you any better off than monotheistic Jews?
Yes, because I accept Prophet Muhammad as my example to follow and therefore worship Allah as He has instructed us to. The monotheistic Jews have a similar concept of God to that of the Muslims as opposed to the Christian Trinity, but they reject the prophethood of both Jesus and Muhammad. They will have to stand in judgement before Allah as you and I will.

This verse comes to mind: James 2:19 - - "You believe that there is one God. You do well. Even the demons believe and tremble!" The demons don't just believe there is one God---they KNOW it. But that doesn't save them.

Peace
Yes, but the demons are not striving to worship Allah and to submit their wills to His.
 
I'm afraid you got it wrong phil, God's final Messenger, Muhammad (peace be upon him) fought those who fought him. The pagans wanted to eradicate Islaam, so they fought, and permission was given by God to fight back. Why wouldn't it be? How else was one supposed to defend their faith? To let the enemy kill them all?

I think you must have missed by point. Perhaps we should review what I said:

If Jesus chose to go to the cross, or to obey God Who sent Him to the cross, it is not a matter of "honor" or being too "honorable" for that to occur. In my opinion, Muhammad could not conceive of such a thing being honorable or good. To him it spelled defeat for Jesus and victory for His enemies, so his "revelation" from Gabriel was to deny that that could have occurred.

Consider the mindset of Muhammad at that time. He was fighting off enemies of monotheism, with that belief being HIS "killer point" to end all points. He was not considering redemption or atonement or anything remotely close to "the Lamb of God Who takes away the sin of the world." Christianity, as HE saw it, was idolatry and anything BUT monotheism, with the "worship" or veneration of Mary, various saints, statues, relics, etc. Rather than simply correct those excesses, he went to the other extreme and denied the Deity of Christ and His atoning sacrifice for sins.

So he accomplished the denial of any worship that he saw as not being to God alone, but destroyed the only means today by which a person can receive forgiveness of sins---the atoning sacrifice of Christ at Calvary. Biblical Christianity fulfills the O.T. faith of Abraham, but Islam reverses and destroys what is a beautiful picture of God reaching down to man to lift him out of his sin, all apart from any "good" works he may have. What started out as strict obedience to the Law (Judaism) and then moved to the Grace of God and salvation apart from the deeds of the Law (Christianity) had ended up in Islam as being a reversion to strict obedience to a new and sometimes stricter Law, Islamic law. That's not of God, not right, and it doesn't even make sense.

Notice I did not say anything good or bad about Muhammad's fighting off enemies of monotheism. I was just stating it as a fact. Opposing polytheism, in my opinion, is a good thing. Whether he did that with pursuasive argumentation or used the sword, I've heard both arguments and am not presently concerned with that. The point I was making is this: his main concern was to advance monotheism and defeat polytheism with all the idols of those worshipping many gods. His view of Christianity may have been only of the Catholics who, to him, were no better than those who worshipped many gods. Whether it was worship of Jesus or worship of Mary, various saints, statues, relics, etc., he was determined to stop it and advance his monotheism. In doing so, he had little concern for an individual's redemption, atonement for sin, or God's sending Jesus to die for sinners. Not understanding Christ's atoning sacrifice and being offended at all the crucifixes showing Jesus on the cross, he was determined to fight that also, so I believe he concocted the myth that Jesus didn't really die and instead was "rescued" by God and taken to heaven, with someone else dying in His place.

I find it interesting that the myth did not totally discount crucifixion, or that Jesus was going to be crucified, or that someone was in fact crucified. Those historical facts remained intact. The historical fact that it was Jesus was simply denied, though there is NO historical evidence to support that. No historian of that era comes forth to say Judas or anyone else was crucified instead of Jesus. It is merely Muhammad's word that the angel Gabriel told him that, and nothing more.

These verses come to mind:


Galatians 1:
6. I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel,
7. which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.
8. But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed.
9. As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.
 
Where is it in the Qur'an that can back up why Muslims believe that Mary was part of the trinity?
who said about Mary is part of trinity???

Qur'an doesn't go in depth what is trinity. but even so, it doesn't say Mary is part of trinity. no where.

and no muslim believes mary is part of trinity. muslims believe that mary is worshipped in some places, but not part of trinity.
 
I don't want you to have that impressioon of me because its false.
Where is it in the Qur'an that can back up why Muslims believe that Mary was part of the trinity?

Muslims do not beleive anybody makes up the Trinity as the Trinity does not exist.

I believe what you are making reference to is this:

5:116. And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things. P Y C

5:117. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things. P Y C


Shakir's Quran Translation

I had been looking through out the Historical sites and trying to find some of the various Christian Churches in existance prior to Muhammad(PBUH) There were some very strange teachings among a few of them. I recall from my long ago study of church history there was some confusion as to if there was a trinity and if there was who did it compose of. I seem to recall that the Marconites, Marionists, and Sabiaans and possibly a few others were teaching that the trinity was Mary, Gabrial and Jesus(as). At the moment I can not offer any proof of that as I can not remember what history books I read that in. naturaly I do not expect you to accept that without proof so at the moment I will just say I believe I read that about 45 years ago.

I am glad to hear this tho:

I don't want you to have that impression of me because its false.

I have no way of knowing what is in another person's heart, so I will accept your statement that is not an accurate impression of you.
 
One of the things that leads me to believe that the teachings of the trinity are false is it does not seem to have been widespread among early Christianity and was not officialy adopted as a Church belief until 325 AD

I am going to try to show this without any reference to Islam or Islamic beliefs.


I
n Christianity, the doctrine of the Trinity states that God is one being who exists, simultaneously and eternally, as a mutual indwelling of three persons: the Father, the Son (incarnate as Jesus of Nazareth), and the Holy Spirit. Since the 4th century, in both Eastern and Western Christianity, this doctrine has been stated as "three persons in one God," all three of whom, as distinct and co-eternal persons, are of one indivisible Divine essence, a simple being. Supporting the doctrine of the Trinity is known as Trinitarianism. The majority of Christians are Trinitarian, and regard belief in the Trinity as a test of orthodoxy. Opposing, nontrinitarian positions that are held by some groups include Binitarianism (two deities/persons/aspects), Unitarianism (one deity/person/aspect), the Godhead (Latter Day Saints) (three separate beings) and Modalism (Oneness).

In addition to teaching that God comprises three persons, the doctrine also teaches that the Son Himself has two distinct natures, one fully divine and the other fully human.

Neither the Old Testament nor New Testament uses the term "Trinity," though Trinitarians believe the concept is implicit in various biblical passages (see Scripture section below). The doctrine of the Trinity is the result of continuous exploration by the church of the biblical data, argued in debate and treatises.[1] It was expressed in early writings from the beginning of the second century forward.[1] The First Council of Nicaea in 325 AD established a nearly universal Trinitarian dogma and expressly rejected any heresies. The most widely recognized Biblical foundations for the doctrine's formulation are in the Gospel of John.[2]

Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity

This next article is very lengthy. I will just post part of it. Highlight what I find significant and post the link for those who wish to read more.

The Holy Trinity
Fresco from Cyprus Monastery (15th c.)

From Jesus to Godhead
(1) Beliefs About the Divine Nature of Jesus

Distinct from God?

"The Father and I are one."
- John 10:30

"The Father is greater than I."
- John 14:28

"Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus:
Who, being in very nature [or 'in the form of' - Greek: en morfh qeon] God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the very nature [or 'the form'] of a servant, being made in human likeness. And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death-- even death on a cross! Therefore God exalted him to the highest place and gave him the name that is above every name, that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth, and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father."
- Philippians 2:5-11

"Paul's Christ is not God, he is God's first creation, and there is no room for the trinitarian formula of the Athanasian Creed nor for its doctrine that the Son was 'not made, nor created, but begotten.' But inasmuch as the visible universe is the expression of the Invisible God, the Christ, as first-product, comprises the whole of that expression in himself."
- The Christian Conspiracy: The Orthodox Suppression of Original Christianity

"I can do nothing on my own initiative. As I hear, I judge; and my judgment is just, because I do not seek my own will, but the will of Him who sent me."
- John 5:30

"The lecture on authority is cast in the first person, which is uncharacteristic of Jesus' mode of speech....Rather than the authentic words of Jesus, the author of the Fourth Gospel is presenting his own meditations of the theological significance of Jesus."
- Robert W. Funk, Roy W. Hoover, and the Jesus Seminar, The Five Gospels

Although Jesus is portrayed in the gospels as someone distinct from God, the following phrase also crops up:

"Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in [or into] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit,"
- Matthew 28:19 (Acts 8:16; 19:5; Romans 6:3; 1 Corinthians 1:13; 10:2 and Galatians 3:27.)

"Matthew did not include in Jesus' fictitious instructions to his followers to preach to gentiles, the words: immersing them in the name of the father and of the son and of the consecrated breath [holy ghost] (Matthew 28:19b). That piece of Nicene mythology was interpolated into Matthew no earlier than the generation immediately preceding the council of Nicaea in 325 C.E. Eusebius, who wrote in the early fourth century C.E., quoted from some manuscripts of Matthew that contained 28:19b and some that did not. Since there was no conceivable way that a copyist could have accidentally omitted the trinitarian formula, that it was not part of the original version of Matthew is the necessary conclusion."
- William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus

"For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus."
- 1 Timothy 2:5

The pastoral letter of 1 Timothy by Pseudo-Paul "can be taken as evidence that, as late as 120 C.E., even the Christians had not yet heard the theory that Jesus was God..."
- William Harwood, Mythologies Last Gods: Yahweh and Jesus

This conclusion is not supported by contemporary Roman sources however.

"Pliny the Younger, proconsul in the province of Bithynia (in Asia Minor) during C.E. 111-13, describes for the Emperor Trajan his method of handling Christians who are denounced to him (Letter 10.96). Among the practices of Christians, Pliny mentions their custom of meeting regularly before dawn on a fixed day to chant verses 'to Christ as to a god' (Christo quasi deo)."
"...the satirist Lucian of Samosata (ca. 115-ca. 200) wrote a mocking life of a convert to and then apostate from Christianity, The Passing of Peregrinus. The Christians are said to be so enamored of Peregrinus that they revered him as a god '...next after that other, to be sure, whom they still worship, the man who was crucified in Palestine because he introduced this new cult into the world."
- John P. Meier, A Marginal Jew - Rethinking the Historical Jesus, Vol. 1.

The Trinitarian Doctrine
The concept of the Holy Trinity has a precedent in the "God is One" acclamation of the Egyptian New Kingdom a millenium before Jesus.

"The ancient Egyptians believed that God could be manifest in any form he/she chose. Thus, many deities have multiple representations, with Re, the solar deity having 76 forms in all, as may be seen in the New Kingdom royal tombs at Thebes. In those same tombs, you have a realistic picture of the trinity. The solar deity Re, depicted as a disk, and within the disk are Khepri, the scarab beetle form of Re, and the ram-headed Re-Horakhti. These three aspects of the solar deity were respectively, the morning sun, the midday disk sun, and the evening form. Incidentally, the morning form, Khepri, was the resurrected sun, which the Egyptians believed daily died when it set in the western horizon, but then, in the deepest night hours was magically transformed back into the scarab, and reborn in the eastern horizon, as Khepri. Many of the earliest Christian theologians lived in Alexandria, and so they adopted this Egyptian religious concept for explaining the Christian Trinity."
- Frank J. Yurco

A "succession of great Christian thinkers (and their Gnostic forerunners)...originated from Egypt or lived there, starting with Valentine and Basilides (c. C.E. 135), followed by Clement and Origen, and leading to Alexander, Athansius and the presbyter Arius."
- Seigfreid Morenz, Egyptian Religion

"It would be ridiculous to imagine that the body of the Redeemer, in order to exist, had the usual needs of man. He only took food and ate it in order that we should not teach about him in a Docetic fashion."
- Clement of Alexandria

"The Word disguised himself by appearing in a body...by the works he did in the body [he] showed himself to be, not man, but God."
- Archdeacon Athanasius [later bishop of Alexandria], On the Incarnation of the Word 16:1

"According to the Alexandrians, therefore, Jesus had been God, and had existed in total equality with God since before time began. To view him any other way made him less than God, which was unthinkable."
- Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence

"Tertullian, a lawyer and presbyter of the third century Church in Carthage, was the first to use the word 'Trinity' when he put forth the theory that the Son and the Spirit participate in the being of God, but all are of one being of substance with the Father."
- "Islam: Prophethood, Jesus & Trinity"

"The merging of Jesus into a Holy Trinity occured "probably under Gnostic influence which in turn developed from Neo-Platonism. The concept is that the one transcendent God is an impersonal God (contrast with Judaism's personal God) who is beyond the reach of mere man - hence the need for a mediator between God and man. There are two mediators: Logos the son of God personifies male rationality and logic, and Sophos the daughter of God personifies female wisdom and intuition. Jesus of course was related to Logos in the Gospel of John and the 'Holy Spirit' tended to be seen as Sophos."
- Paul Harvey



"[Tom] Kopecek [CrossTalk - December 4 1996] locates the crucial philosophical background for the Trinity in Ptolemaic Valentinian Christianity. In their view, human beings differed most in how much of a share of the Spirit they had (most people didn't have much if any of it.) It was the Spirit which linked them to the divine. In the development of the Pleroma, there was a hierarchy of thirty Aeons. But because each of them were spiritual beings, they were all of the same substance or essence (homoousios)-- i.e., spirit. This idea of the Pleroma provided something of a model for the later orthodox Catholic view of the Trinity, for the Valentinians looked upon the Pleroma as divided into three main divisions, the beings or 'persons' of which were distinguishable but nonetheless all fully divine or God. The first known use of homoousios with reference to the relationship between God and Jesus was by Paul of Samosata, third century Bishop of Antioch."
- Bob Schacht (CrossTalk - 17 Oct 1998)

(2) The Council of Nicea

Alexandrian Theology
"Many scholars see the core of Alexandrian theology as Deification or the grace of renewal. By deification the Alexandrians mean the renewal of human nature as a whole, to attain sharing in the characteristics of our Lord Jesus Christ in place of the corrupt human nature, or as the apostles state that the believer may enjoy "the partaking in the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), or the new man in the image of His Creator (Col. 3:10).
This theological mind draws the heart of the Alexandrians away from the arguments about the definitions of the theological terms to concentrate on attaining the divine grace as being an enjoyment of the unity with the Father, in His only-begotten Son, Jesus, by the work of His Holy Spirit, or attaining Christ Himself who renews our nature in Him."
- The Characteristics of Alexandrian Theology

"For this He came down,
for this He assumed human nature,
for this He willingly endured the sufferings of man,
that by being reduced to the measure of our weakness
He might raise us to the measure of His power.
The Word of God, became man just that you may learn from a Man
how it may be that man should become god."
- Clement of Alexandria

" He was made man that we might be gods...For as, although there be one Son by nature, True and Only-Begotten, we too become sons, not as He in nature and truth, but according to the grace of Him that calls, and though we are men from the earth, are yet called gods."
- Athanasius

A Crisis in Christianity
"According to the Egyptian Gospel Jesus is supposed to have said to his disciples that 'the same was the Father, the same was the Son and the same was the Holy Ghost'."
- Seigfreid Morenz, Egyptian Religion

"However, for those who had grown up around Antioch, the region that included the homeland of the earthly Jesus, there was an altogether different emphasis and outlook. In the third century the great Lucian of Antioch, reflecting Christianity's origins in Jewish monotheism, had stressed the essential oneness of God, the simple humanity of Jesus, and the importance of the way of life Jesus taught, which those obsessed with theology too easily overlooked."
- Ian Wilson, Jesus, The Evidence

The School of Antioch was in directed opposition to the School of Alexandria, which supported the trinitarian creed. The Christians in Antioch claimed that they possessed the true manuscripts (Textus Receptus) of the Gospels. They charged that the Alexandrian manuscripts, which were used as the source for revised bible versions, were composed by heretics.
Although Arius was Deacon of the Church in Alexandria, Egypt, he was also a follower of Lucian. His philosophers and textual criticism opposed the trinitarian doctrine of the Alexandrian school and provoked a crisis within the church. The Arian controversy, as it came to be known, eventually spread across the Roman Empire.

"For He [the Son] is not eternal or co-eternal or co-unoriginate with the Father, nor has He His being together with the Father, as some speak of relations, introducing two ingenerate beginnings, but God is before all things as being Monad and Beginning of all. Wherefore also He is before the Son; as we have learned also from they preaching in the midst of the Church. "
- Arius' Letter to Alexander of Alexandria (excerpt) 320 CE

(Modern critics have charged that Arius' true agenda was to promote the worship of Theotokos, the mother-goddess. Arius, however, writes about "One God, alone Ingenerate, alone Everlasting, alone Unbegun, alone True, alone having Immortality, alone Wise, alone Good, alone Sovereign" ["Letter to Alexander"].) Airus' superior was Alexandria's Bishop Alexander, supreme ecclesiastical authority for Egypt and Libya. According to Alexander, Arius taught that God chose Jesus "on account of the carefulness of His manners and His practice" and was "a thing created, and a thing made" ("Epistles on the Arian Heresy and the Deposition of Arius"). This is in contrast to the description of Jesus in the Gospel of John as "the only-begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father", whom Alexander describes as "subsistence of the divine Word [Logos]".

"St. Athanasius [the succeeding Bishop of Alexandria] defends the divinity of the Holy Spirit in his reply to the Arians who believed that He was a creature and less than the Logos. He also writes about the Holy Spirit in four letters addressed to his friend Bishop Serapion. His theology concerning the Holy Spirit is the same concerning Christ. The Holy Spirit must be God, because if He were a creature, we could not participate in His divine nature. He states, 'If by participation in the Spirit, we are made 'sharers in the divine nature' 2 Pet. 1:4. It should not to be doubted that His nature is of God."
- The Characteristics of Alexandrian Theology

In an attempt to end the controversy, Arius was excommunicated by Bishop Alexander. Bishop Eusebius of Nicomedia, however, convened a synod of the bishops in his region in support of Arius. The emperor Constantine suddenly found himself embroiled in a bitter theological dispute which had political consequences which threatened the Pax Romana he had foughtso hard to establish. Therefore, in 318 CE, he sent Arius and Alexander each a letter asking them to resolve the dispute.
Constantine

The Emperor Constantine

"Constantine the Victor, Supreme Augustus, to Alexander and Arius...how deep a wound has not only my ears but my heart received from the report that divisions exist among yourselves...having enquired carefully into the origin and foundation of these differences, I find their cause to be of a truly insignificant nature, quite unworthy of such bitter contention...Restore my quiet days and untroubled nights to me, so that joy of undimmed light, delight in a tranquil life, may one again be mine."
- Constantine

Source: http://www.mystae.com/restricted/reflections/messiah/beliefs.html
 
Just noticed that Br. Woodrow had already quoted this. Sorry for the duplication.

I don't want you to have that impressioon of me because its false.
Where is it in the Qur'an that can back up why Muslims believe that Mary was part of the trinity?
Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."
As demonstrated by others in other threads, Muslims hold that Catholics treat Mary as a god by praying to her.

Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee,
blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now, and at
the hour of our death.
Amen.


Retrieved from "http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hail_Mary"
 
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who said about Mary is part of trinity???

Qur'an doesn't go in depth what is trinity. but even so, it doesn't say Mary is part of trinity. no where.

and no muslim believes mary is part of trinity. muslims believe that mary is worshipped in some places, but not part of trinity.

OK, I know what Muslims believe today about how Christians see the trinity and Mary, but where does it say that Muhammad believed or implied that Mary was part of the trinity? Is it in the Hadiath?
 
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OK, I know what Muslims believe today about how Christians see the trinity and Mary, but where does it say that Muhammad believed or implied that Mary was part of the trinity? Is it in the Hadiath?
How many times do we have to tell you that Islam (Quran, hadith, etc) does not teach that Mary is part of the Trinity? We have quoted the relevant ayat, but you just keep on...
 
Just noticed that Br. Woodrow had already quoted this. Sorry for the duplication.


Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."
As demonstrated by others in other threads, Muslims hold that Catholics treat Mary as a god by praying to her.

Hail Mary, full of grace,
the Lord is with thee,
blessed art thou among women,
and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary, mother of God,
pray for us sinners, now, and at
the hour of our death.
Amen.


Retrieved from "http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Hail_Mary"
Thanks for sharing the verse that did it for me. That is right, some Catholics do worship Mary, but they error not knowing the Scriptures even as Muhammad had error not knowing the Scripture, cuz nowhere in the Bible are we ever taught or is it implied to worship Mary. God would never ask Jesus "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?"That alone convinces me that Islam is not for me. If God was revealing truth to Muhammad, he would not have made the Biblical interpretation mistake as the Catholics by a ascribing to Christians what they believe(d) the Bible says. He would have referred to what the Bible actually teaches instead. This is a very significant mistake. If that mistake were made by the prophets in the Old Testament, they would have been stoned for being false prophets. Moreover, even Muhammad’s disciples have left him for making changes to what he said Allah revealed to him.:rollseyes
 
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do u have historical facts that Jesus was crucified that you are saying there is no historical fact that he was not crucified?

in the problem with Jesus's crucifiction, history is too young to remember. and Qur'an does not deny crucifiction as an event, but it denies that Jesus a.s was on the cross. So it appeared to them that it was Jesus a.s , but in fact He wasnt. Do you have any evidence that Jesus a.s himself was on the cross??

ALL the evidence says Jesus Himself died on the cross. Everything from the Gospel accounts to contemporary historians to 600 years of church history, prior to Muhammad. NOTHING says otherwise. NOTHING.

There are many sources you can consult but I think I can say without contradiction that NO reputable, historical source will say otherwise.

Here is one link, among many, that you can check out:
http://www.4truth.net/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=hiKXLbPNLrF&b=784437&ct=1483159
 
Thanks for sharing the verse that did it for me. That is right, some Catholics do worship Mary, but they error not knowing the Scriptures even as Muhammad had error not knowing the Scripture, cuz nowhere in the Bible are we ever taught or is it implied to worship Mary. God would never ask Jesus "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?"That alone convinces me that Islam is not for me. If God was revealing truth to Muhammad, he would not have made the Biblical interpretation mistake as the Catholics by a ascribing to Christians what they believe(d) the Bible says. He would have referred to what the Bible actually teaches instead. This is a very significant mistake. If that mistake were made by the prophets in the Old Testament, they would have been stoned for being false prophets. Moreover, even Muhammad’s disciples have left him for making changes to what he said Allah revealed to him.:rollseyes
No, the point is that the Quran was addressing what people were actually doing and whether or not this came from what Jesus said or from innovations after he ascended to Heaven.
 
ALL the evidence says Jesus Himself died on the cross. Everything from the Gospel accounts to contemporary historians to 600 years of church history, prior to Muhammad. NOTHING says otherwise. NOTHING.

There are many sources you can consult but I think I can say without contradiction that NO reputable, historical source will say otherwise.

Here is one link, among many, that you can check out:
http://www.4truth.net/site/apps/nl/content3.asp?c=hiKXLbPNLrF&b=784437&ct=1483159
The disciples themselves and their testimonies are circumstantial proof. They were practically scared of their own shadows. They ran away from Christ denied Him you name it. They went from scared cowardly type individuals to bold unstoppable warriors for Christ. How could they change like that? It is cuz they saw something. They saw Jesus die and they saw Jesus risen. They couldn’t even believe their own eyes. Thomas said, "I won’t believe unless I could put my finger in His wounds." Jesus let him do it. Thomas confesses to Jesus, “My Lord and my god.” He was calling Jesus God. This was not an expression of awe. He saw Jesus. After Jesus spent some 40 days with them, they saw Jesus ascend into the heavens. We have the right God; there is no question about it. :statisfie
 
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No, the point is that the Quran was addressing what people were actually doing and whether or not this came from what Jesus said or from innovations after he ascended to Heaven.
:laugh: No, no, no, nice try though. Muhammad thought that that was what the Bible teaches; He thought that the Bible teaches that Mary was a god (one of the trinity). Let's call a spade a spade. Besides, he is quoting what Allah is supposed to be saying to Jesus. Doesn't Allah know what the Bible teaches since He wrote it ALL. You have a severe problem on hand.
 
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You error not knowing the Scriptures: God refers to Jesus as God in Hebrews but thy (Jesus) throne Oh God is established forever... Jesus was a man of course He was subordinate to His Father in Heaven, but He was no less deity, just like as if you have a son; he would be under you but no less human. Besides, God is only one. God is a Spirit and Jesus represents His word that was made flesh. Jesus is the word of God, and the Bible says that He exalts His word above His name. The Bible is replete with Jesus saying He is the only way to God, And with the Son giving glory to the Father and the Father glorifying the Son. Anyone trying to get to heaven in any other fashion then submit to the Lordship of Jesus will not make it. God (Allah) will not look at anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as His Son. This is not ascribing partners to God; this is glorifying Him in the most glorious way humanly possible. But I do believe the Muslims are ascribing a partner to God by having to confess Muhammad as his messenger for their salvation, but then again they cannot be sure of that until they die. If we look at the Bible, we can tell where both of us will be going. If we look at the Qur'an it is ambiguous where we will go. What sounds like a more just God, is it not the God who gives you an opportunity to be sure in this life where you will spent all of eternity or the one who doesn't?
 

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