Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[Redeemed]

of course, can't be as rude with women as with men.

but sometimes u are really a pain u know that? ;D. just joking .

first,

no, I was raised in a "muslim" family, where, first of all the beliefs are totally messed up, which if we would look close, the things that were done would be shirk, but I don't want to go now on judging my parents. it's not just in my family, but it's in most of the families , the majority. so you can imagine how much they know that they say "only old people have to pray 5 times a day" . at least u know that everyone is obligated to pray 5 times a day, but they think only old people should. so now I let u judge what type of Islam I was raised on.

second,
the country I was raised, the tolerance between religions is very high, even higher than the countries like UK,USA,Germany........
people never discuss things about religion. I was also raised in a society, where like everyone kept their religion, and didn't even bother to improve their knowledge on, or try to teach other people. which is why they know nothing about the religion. Also communism has it's own effect on their ideas about religion. (especially Islam).
So, I was basically raised in a family which they call themselves muslims, but they don't really know what they're doing.

third,
We've always knows about christianity, I would pass everyday by a church to go to my English course , so it wasn't a big deal really.
I have also lived with a baptist pastor for about a year, which I wasn't a good muslim, u can imagine what type I was , and I read and learned about both, also had the chance to learn from the pastor, but the the difference between Islam and Christian, can be seen from the moon, which one is true. so that's why I decided to keep on my islamic faith, and improve it.

Also, don't forget to post the things about the hadith I required, else I will assume that you just copy/pasted the claim, and you fail to discuss it further.

Very, very interesting, You can see the difference from the moon. I can see the difference too - the Son is bigger than the moon:laugh: By the way, what was I supposed to post from the hadith,:exhausted :? and what would be the point if it is not neccessarily true:? :rollseyes

 

[MustafaMc]

God (Allah) will not look at anyone who doesn't accept Jesus as His Son. This is not ascribing partners to God; this is glorifying Him in the most glorious way humanly possible.

Aha! caught ya. Why do you put Allah (swt) in parnethesis and then follow with "Jesus as His Son".

Notice that most Muslims follow Allah's (swt) name with these letters which is short for Subhanahu wa ta'ala - This is an expression that Muslims use whenever the name of Allah is pronounced or written. The meaning of this expression is: "Allah is pure of having partners and He is exalted from having a son." http://www.usc.edu/dept/MSA/reference/glossary/term.SUBHANA.html

You clearly refer to other than Allah (swt) Who has no son, or daughter, or mother or father.

 

[vpb]

Very, very interesting,

You can see the difference from the moon. I can see the difference too - the Son is bigger than the moon

thank you for you comment
Those who read Mein Keimph , also think that they are right, but it does not neceseraly means they are right

By the way, what was I supposed to post from the hadith,

and what would be the point if it is not neccessarily true

the hadith that you qouted before, you need to tell me it's status, the chain narration, and the colleciton it belong to.
and the point would be, that if you can;t provide it, than don't dig somewhere where you can't manage to get out, just bc it says a hadith doesn't mean that it is true, and don't try to attack people on things which you have no knowledge of. You need first to learn about the 'isnad' system and then try to bring me hadiths here.
look at the things more open hearted, cuz it seems you just try to find a bug, (but you cant), so that u satisfy your beliefs. be open hearted and learn about Islam, from the proper sources. don't take those people's arguments, bc them too don't know anything about Islam, but they just try to twist and missuse things to make Islam look bad, but wallahi they never will, bc Allah swt revelaed the Qur'an without any doubts in it as it says:

Surah Al-Baqara
2:1. A.L.M.
2:2. This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah.

Very one on this forum knows I spoke the truth

be honest with yourself

 

[NoName55]

First of all, that post wasn't directed at you and what lies? Very one on this forum knows I spoke the truth

when you post tripe in your posts and I question you about them;what does usully happen when you run off? it is almost alway someone else who comes to your rescue, some of your helpers have even asked me in PM to be lenient but you are making it very difficult for me to tolerate your nonsense especially since you have become far too bold in your lying claims as well as telling me, who may or may not reply to you (last time I checked it was an open-to-all forum).

I would not dream of wasting much time on dignifying your rubbish. All I do now, is to make a little comment here and there in the hope that those incharge may take notice and hopefully send you on your way. That is all!

 

[vpb]

it is not my heart to associate anyone with with God. I believe in my heart of hearts that God is one and has NO partners.

so why are you saying God has a son?? when you say God has a son, you are joining him in parntership.

The fact is I just got a Qur’an, and I have been reading it. It is very ambiguous to me and full of contradictions as well

bring them on.

The biggest difference between Islam and the rest is that Mohammed has more followers and they're meaner.

typical evangelist statement. is Pat Robertson your relative??

 

[evangel]

typical evangelist statement. is Pat Robertson your relative??

Nope, just going by the verse you gave us. You know, the whole taking off our faces and twisting our heads around thing. The others never said anything like that to us.

 

[vpb]

just going by the verse you gave us. You know, the whole taking off our faces and twisting our heads around thing. The others never said anything like that to us.

don't get what you are saying. can you please explain in full.

 

[MustafaMc]

WHY MUST YOU STRUGGLE SO HARD TO DISCREDIT ISLAM???????

I am not sure i can answer your question in such a way that would satisfy you.

You must have an answer of sorts, but you don't want to say. I think that your posts speak for you. You are an enemy of Islam along with Pat Robertson.

 

[MustafaMc]

I understand. That is fine. Please keep in mind; however, it is not my heart to associate anyone with with God. I believe in my heart of hearts that God is one and has NO partners.

You, as a Christian, believe that a human, Jesus, being born of a woman was at the same time Son of God and fully God. According to the Quran, this is in fact made painfully clear to be associating partners with Allah.

No one has the right to judge me without this judgment falling on them 100 fold. I promise that is truth.

I am not judging you, rather I am sharing my understanding of what Islam teaches about Christianity.

Quran 5:116-118 After reminding him of these favors, Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as gods beside Allah?" He will answer: "Glory to You! How could I say what I had no right to say? If I had ever said so, you would have certainly known it. You know what is in my heart, but I know not what is in Yours; for You have full knowledge of all the unseen. I never said anything other than what You commanded me to say, that is to worship Allah, Who is my Rabb and your Rabb. I was a witness over them as long as I remained among them; but when You called me off, You were the Watcher over them and You are a Witness to everything. If You punish them, they surely are Your servants; and if You forgive them, You are Mighty, Wise."

The point is that you will stand in judgement before Allah and you will be at His Mercy. From the Muslim perspective, I would not want to be in your shoes - trying to explain how God is One, yet He lived on earth as a human.

 

[vpb]

From the Muslim perspective, I would not want to be in your shoes - trying to explain how God is One, yet He lived on earth as a human.

not even his socks. let alone his shoes.

 

[Phil12123]

You, as a Christian, believe that a human, Jesus, being born of a woman was at the same time Son of God and fully God. According to the Quran, this is in fact made painfully clear to be associating partners with Allah.

Christians believe that God (you say "Allah") IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet the Scriptures make it very clear that there is only ONE God. So the THREE ARE the ONE God. For us to be associating partners with GOD we would have to be saying someone OTHER THAN the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit is also God. For example, if we said Peter is God and of the same essence, substance, and nature as the Father, or as the Son, or as the Holy Spirit. THEN, and only THEN, would we be associating "partners" with GOD.

The point is that you will stand in judgement before Allah and you will be at His Mercy. From the Muslim perspective, I would not want to be in your shoes - trying to explain how God is One, yet He lived on earth as a human.

And from the Christian perspective, YOU will be standing before Jesus Christ Who will judge you (John 5:22). And YOU will be explaining to HIM why you rejected His blood atonement at Calvary as payment for your sins. He will open the Book of Life and your name will not be there ("He that has the Son has life and he that has not the Son of God has not life" 1 John 5:12). He will then open the books that contain your every word, thought, and deed, and expose them all before you and the whole world to see. Then you will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10-15).

No, I would not want to be in YOUR shoes.

 

[vpb]

Christians believe that God (you say "Allah") IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet the Scriptures make it very clear that there is only ONE God. So the THREE ARE the ONE God. For us to be associating partners with GOD we would have to be saying someone OTHER THAN the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit is also God. For example, if we said Peter is God and of the same essence, substance, and nature as the Father, or as the Son, or as the Holy Spirit. THEN, and only THEN, would we be associating "partners" with GOD.

this is what I would call 'adaptation'. Since you are adapted with the term of "The Father, The Son, The Holy spirit", you don't look at it as joining partnership to God anymore, but if you take Peter, as u said , than it is partnership to God. so of course it is not partnership to you saying The Father.....The holy spirit. But in fact, it is, but you are used to it, and that's why you don't accept it.

And from the Christian perspective, YOU will be standing before Jesus Christ Who will judge you (John 5:22). And YOU will be explaining to HIM why you rejected His blood atonement at Calvary as payment for your sins. He will open the Book of Life and your name will not be there ("He that has the Son has life and he that has not the Son of God has not life" 1 John 5:12). He will then open the books that contain your every word, thought, and deed, and expose them all before you and the whole world to see. Then you will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10-15).

Jesus a.s will not be able to help himself, let alone MustafaMC or me, or u.


5:116. And when Allah will say: O Isa son of Marium! did you say to men, Take me and my mother for two gods besides Allah he will say: Glory be to Thee, it did not befit me that I should say what I had no right to (say); if I had said it, Thou wouldst indeed have known it; Thou knowest what is in my mind, and I do not know what is in Thy mind, surely Thou art the great Knower of the unseen things.

5:117. I did not say to them aught save what Thou didst enjoin me with: That serve Allah, my Lord and your Lord, and I was a witness of them so long as I was among them, but when Thou didst cause me to die, Thou wert the watcher over them, and Thou art witness of all things.

 

[NoName55]

@Phil12123: when are you getting back to these?
http://www.islamicboard.com/762337-post612.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/762361-post613.html
http://www.islamicboard.com/762363-post614.html

 

[vpb]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong! If He didn't die, WHO did? And where is his dead body?

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
Jesus a.s was not on the cross, so he didn't get killed. so the question of "where is his dead body", falls, bc he was not on the cross, and he was raised up in the heaven.

How did it disappear when a bunch of soldiers guarded the tomb and there was huge rock in front of it, sealed closed?

as I said, Jesus a.s was not on the cross.

Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

ok, bring on the proof, that Jesus was exactly on the cross, and that he got crucified.
I dont want historical fact, I want scientific fact !!! So don't give me stories allright? bring me scientifical evidence.

The spirit that moved Peter to say, No, this will never happen to you, is exactly the same spirit that told Muhammad that No, it never happened to Jesus.

No, not the same.
cuz you guys not that u don't have the biographies of these disciples, but you even don't have a full biography about Jesus. so I don't want to hear about peters or pauls, cuz they have nothing to do with Jesus a.s . They didn't teach what Jesus taught.
Just bc you tell me that Peter was a fisherman, it doesn't prove to me who he was, or what he did or was he pious or what.
The bible is just one of the layers of the gospel of Q, so there is no point of me beliving on it.

 

[MustafaMc]

Christians believe that God (you say "Allah") IS Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

Actually, Allah has no son see Surah Ikhlas.

The Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. Yet the Scriptures make it very clear that there is only ONE God. So the THREE ARE the ONE God. For us to be associating partners with GOD we would have to be saying someone OTHER THAN the Father, the Son, or the Holy Spirit is also God.

By definition of Muslim and Christian we will never agree on this issue - at least this side of Judgement Day.

And from the Christian perspective, YOU will be standing before Jesus Christ Who will judge you (John 5:22). And YOU will be explaining to HIM why you rejected His blood atonement at Calvary as payment for your sins. He will open the Book of Life and your name will not be there ("He that has the Son has life and he that has not the Son of God has not life" 1 John 5:12). He will then open the books that contain your every word, thought, and deed, and expose them all before you and the whole world to see. Then you will be cast into the Lake of Fire and be tormented day and night forever and ever (Rev. 20:10-15).

No, I would not want to be in YOUR shoes.

I was a Christian at one point, but my perception of Truth changed over 25 years ago. The focus in my worship is not Jesus, Muhammad, or any other than the One God. I admit that I don't understand Allah's Nature, but it is inconceivable for me to imagine His need to become a human and to die on the cross for my sins. You and other Christians emphasize that there MUST be a blood atonement for sins, yet negate the ability and willingness of Allah to forgive sins of His own accord.

 

[Keltoi]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
Jesus a.s was not on the cross, so he didn't get killed. so the question of "where is his dead body", falls, bc he was not on the cross, and he was raised up in the heaven.


as I said, Jesus a.s was not on the cross.



ok, bring on the proof, that Jesus was exactly on the cross, and that he got crucified.
I dont want historical fact, I want scientific fact !!! So don't give me stories allright? bring me scientifical evidence.


No, not the same.
cuz you guys not that u don't have the biographies of these disciples, but you even don't have a full biography about Jesus. so I don't want to hear about peters or pauls, cuz they have nothing to do with Jesus a.s . They didn't teach what Jesus taught.
Just bc you tell me that Peter was a fisherman, it doesn't prove to me who he was, or what he did or was he pious or what.
The bible is just one of the layers of the gospel of Q, so there is no point of me beliving on it.

You want "scientific" fact that Christ died on the cross....but you don't want historical accounts? How exactly is this supposed to be achieved?

 

[vpb]

You want "scientific" fact that Christ died on the cross....but you don't want historical accounts?

History is very young to remember "Jesus's crussifiction", so they wrote history based on bible. that's why I don't want "historical" evidences, I don't want stories. where we know that Bible in every field has errors, that even the historical evidences derived from Bible are not reliable. That's why we have to go back to Qur'an to check the proper history. but anyway I want scientific evidence .

How exactly is this supposed to be achieved?

bring them, if Phil is saying about the account on Qur'an

Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

then bring your scientific proof.

ie. we have scientific proof about Pharaoh, but where is the one about Jesus a.s???
there isn't any, do u know? bc he was not crucified, he was raised in the heaven, otherwise you would find his body, untouched by insects.

 

[Keltoi]

History is very young to remember "Jesus's crussifiction", so they wrote history based on bible. that's why I don't want "historical" evidences, I don't want stories. where we know that Bible in every field has errors, that even the historical evidences derived from Bible are not reliable. That's why we have to go back to Qur'an to check the proper history. but anyway I want scientific evidence .

bring them, if Phil is saying about the account on Qur'an
then bring your scientific proof.

ie. we have scientific proof about Pharaoh, but where is the one about Jesus a.s???
there isn't any, do u know? bc he was not crucified, he was raised in the heaven, otherwise you would find his body, untouched by insects.

Well, Christians and Muslims believe Christ, body and spirit, are in Heaven. The difference is that Christians believe He was crucified and rose from the dead. If you want non-Biblical accounts of Christ's crucifiction, I believe Tacitus wrote something about the "Messiah" of the Jews being crucified and causing alot of problems. I will try to find the name of that writing and maybe find an on-line edition of it.

 

[Redeemed]

Actually, Allah has no son see Surah Ikhlas. By definition of Muslim and Christian we will never agree on this issue - at least this side of Judgement Day.

I was a Christian at one point, but my perception of Truth changed over 25 years ago. The focus in my worship is not Jesus, Muhammad, or any other than the One God. I admit that I don't understand Allah's Nature, but it is inconceivable for me to imagine His need to become a human and to die on the cross for my sins. You and other Christians emphasize that there MUST be a blood atonement for sins, yet negate the ability and willingness of Allah to forgive sins of His own accord.

I wasn't Allah's need to become human and die on the cross for our sins; it was and is our need. It is written, "Without the shedding of Blood there is no remission for sin." God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to the knoweldge of truth. As it is written, "If we refuse the love of the truth God sends us a strong dellusion that we might believe a lie." We Christians are not your enemies; we are the best of all friends you ever had, but you reject us, and Jesus said, "Those that reject you reject me."

 

[Phil12123]

Wrong! Wrong! Wrong!
Jesus a.s was not on the cross, so he didn't get killed. so the question of "where is his dead body", falls, bc he was not on the cross, and he was raised up in the heaven.

I think you missed my point. I asked, if Jesus was not crucified, then WHO was? Islam teaches that someone took Jesus' place and was crucified in His place. My question is WHO?? And where is HIS body?? Someone died but that someone still had a dead body afterward, right? Where is that dead body? Was it not buried in what should have been Jesus' tomb, because everyone thought it was really Jesus? And how did it then disappear when a bunch of soldiers guarded the tomb and there was a huge rock in front of it, sealed closed? Your story, which you believe and stake your eternal destiny on, doesn't even make sense. Nor is it supported by ANY evidence, historical records or proof.

...cuz you guys not that u don't have the biographies of these disciples, but you even don't have a full biography about Jesus. so I don't want to hear about peters or pauls, cuz they have nothing to do with Jesus a.s . They didn't teach what Jesus taught. Just bc you tell me that Peter was a fisherman, it doesn't prove to me who he was, or what he did or was he pious or what. The bible is just one of the layers of the gospel of Q, so there is no point of me beliving on it.

What? PETER had "nothing to do with Jesus"? That's like saying Muhammad had nothing to do with Allah. What a foolish statement.

And PETER didn't teach what Jesus taught? Prove it. I hope you know that the only way you can do that is to have 1st century manuscripts of Peter's letters, authenticated to be written by him, teaching something contrary to what Jesus taught. Do you have them? Of course not. So don't make ridiculous claims that you cannot possibly substantiate.