Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

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This is entirely off-topic, but why don't you define what they ARE.
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jihad means to strive/struggle, and when muslims talk about jihad, it may be two types of jihad, jihad of the nafs (struggle against your ego) ie. (struggling not to do something haram, not going back to sleep when you wake up to go to pray fajr prayer), muslim do all the time 24/7 jihad with their nafs. and jihad by the sword as we may call it, were muslims struggle against opression/occupation from the enemy.

so jihad has nothing to do with holy war, this is just given to us by crusaders, as brother MuhammadRizan explained but seems that u don't pay attention to our posts.

during crusade christian called it holy war.
when muslim engaged in war we will declare jihad(strive till the end).

jihad and holy war has different meaning.
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vpb said:
.. and jihad by the sword as we may call it, were muslims struggle against opression/occupation from the enemy.
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So the muslim conquests of the Middle East, Persia, Spain etc would not be considered 'jihad' then? Would they be considered 'holy war'?

BTW as has been said this IS hopelessly off-topic; could somebody move it to another thread?
 
So the muslim conquests of the Middle East, Persia, Spain etc would not be considered 'jihad' then? Would they be considered 'holy war'?
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brother Fisabililah explained in one of the threads about the thing with Islam spreading and the conditions when the war starts. I'll try to find the link. bear in mind that muslims did not have the "convert or you're dead"
 
Who mentioned 'conversion'? The conquests happened whether anybody chose to convert or not.

So what options did the muslims give to these oppressive governments?

The government had one of the 3 choices mentioned above.

1) They could either accept islaam and become brothers and sisters in faith, the muslims would allow these people to keep their land and wealth etc. But at the same time they would have to rule with the justice of Islaam. This would give safety to those who wanted to accept islaam within the nation because no-one could harm them if they wanted to accept the truth.

2) They could pay Jizya [a small tax] and this would be used to strengthen the security of the state, and also to help the needy etc. The benefits with this tax would be that, the people who lived in the state - they would keep their land, wealth, their honor and blood would be protected - which means their oppressive rulers can't harm them no more, and if anyone waged war against them - the muslims would fight on their behalf.

Compare this to the oppressive rulers before who would tax the people heavily, take over their lands, take their wealth, even harm them physically and take away their honor because all these people wanted was this life, they wanted to keep their empire so keeping the poor - weak would make them feel superior and feel less under a threat.

3) Or the war would take place. The muslims would actually tell the enemy that within 3 days the opposing government has to make a decision. If they don't accept either terms 1 or 2, they will be fought against. This gave the enemy time to think carefully and the muslims trustworthiness meant that they weren't ready to be attacked at any moment, rather the muslims would fight only when they had said so, unlike other enemies who may have done a surprise attack without notice.

The muslims would fight the government until the muslims had authority in the land, and then the justice would be set for the public. 1400yrs ago, if a nation took over a land - the people there would become slaves of the rulers. However, when islaam had authority the people were still free and could either pay Jizya (option 2) or become muslim without the threat of being killed.
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So in other words, if a government was believed to be "oppressive" (which seems to mean anybody who wasn't muslim already) they were given an ultimatum to either submit to muslim rule or pay-up. If they did neither, it was war. So, according to your distinction, was the war on those who chose not to submit to such intimidation "holy war", "jihad", or neither?
 
So, according to your distinction, was the war on those who chose not to submit to such intimidation "holy war", "jihad", or neither?
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certainly not holy war, bc there is no such thing as holy war in Islam, but wether it was jihad or not, I don't know. I am not competent to speak, I fear I may speak the wrong thing. but maybe someone here who knows may answer your question. We can't give the answer just based on our opinions. Need to base it on Quranic verses or hadith. So again, maybe someone here knows better and can answer u'r question.
 
Jihad

Other Commonly Used Spellings: JIHAAD
It is an Arabic word the root of which is Jahada, which means to strive for a better way of life. The nouns are Juhd, Mujahid, Jihad, and Ijtihad. The other meanings are: endeavor, strain, exertion, effort, diligence, fighting to defend one's life, land, and religion.
Jihad should not be confused with Holy War; the latter does not exist in Islam nor will Islam allow its followers to be involved in a Holy War. The latter refers to the Holy War of the Crusaders.
Jihad is not a war to force the faith on others, as many people think of it. It should never be interpreted as a way of compulsion of the belief on others, since there is an explicit verse in the Qur'an that says:"There is no compulsion in religion" Al-Qur'an: Al-Baqarah (2:256).
Jihad is not a defensive war only, but a war against any unjust regime. If such a regime exists, a war is to be waged against the leaders, but not against the people of that country. People should be freed from the unjust regimes and influences so that they can freely choose to believe in Allah.
Not only in peace but also in war Islam prohibits terrorism, kidnapping, and hijacking, when carried against civilians. Whoever commits such violations is considered a murderer in Islam, and is to be punished by the Islamic state. during wars, Islam prohibits Muslim soldiers from harming civilians, women, children, elderly, and the religious men like priests and rabies. It also prohibits cutting down trees and destroying civilian constructions.



Source

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Jihad is not a defensive war only, but a war against any unjust regime. If such a regime exists, a war is to be waged against the leaders, but not against the people of that country. People should be freed from the unjust regimes and influences so that they can freely choose to believe in Allah.
I think this one answers your question.



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Muslim Woman said:
:sl:



alapiana1: We ascribe no partners or prophets to God as Muslims do.






heheheheheheheheh , another funny joke :p


thanks for pointing this out....i overlooked it
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You guys are cute. And have a wonderful sense of humor. Which I do appreciate, but one day you will see this is not a laughing matter for two reasons. 1. What is funny about my going to hell, because I can't see Islam as the truth or right way to salvation or the way you do? 2. What is funny if you go to hell, because you have forsaken true life to embrace a big lie or you just won't come and taste to see that the Lord is good. I know I am getting to you when you laugh like this, because even the fact that you make a joke about something so serious, shows that you are not in touch with God spiritually, but I really do love you guys and pray for you.:cry:
 
This thread has gone off topic. But to answer the question:

1.) Christian believe the Trinity is the way to heaven.
2.) Muslims believe the Trinity is an abomination/massive sin.

3.) Atheists believe that the Trinity is logically impossible and is another idea stolen from past pagan trinitarian dogmas.
 
alapiana1 said:
You guys are cute. And have a wonderful sense of humor. Which I do appreciate, but one day you will see this is not a laughing matter for two reasons. 1. What is funny about my going to hell, because I can't see Islam as the truth or right way to salvation or the way you do? 2. What is funny if you go to hell, because you have forsaken true life to embrace a big lie or you just won't come and taste to see that the Lord is good. I know I am getting to you when you laugh like this, because even the fact that you make a joke about something so serious, shows that you are not in touch with God spiritually, but I really do love you guys and pray for you.:cry:
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It is simply a symptom that all possible discussions about the trinity have been exhausted.

Member Philosopher has summed up all that can be said.

Once a thread goes to its limits of valid discussion, nonsense tends to set in as nothing more can be said.

We have told you the truth. You refuse to believe it. There is no point in trying to force you into believing. The choice is yours. We have no desire to control that, as faith accepted without belief is worthless.
 
You guys are cute. And have a wonderful sense of humor. Which I do appreciate, but one day you will see this is not a laughing matter for two reasons. 1. What is funny about my going to hell, because I can't see Islam as the truth or right way to salvation or the way you do? 2. What is funny if you go to hell, because you have forsaken true life to embrace a big lie or you just won't come and taste to see that the Lord is good. I know I am getting to you when you laugh like this, because even the fact that you make a joke about something so serious, shows that you are not in touch with God spiritually, but I really do love you guys and pray for you.
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You have your way of life, I have mine :)
 
alpiana, have u ever considered the option that it can be exact opposite of what u'r saying?
 
Philosopher said:
Atheists believe that the Trinity is logically impossible and is another idea stolen from past pagan trinitarian dogmas.
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I am an atheist (sort of) and I don't think it is logically impossible at all. I don't believe there is a Trinity as I don't believe there is a God, but I have no problem with the concept, wherever it might originate from.

I have rather more of a problem with the monopoly on the truth concept. No folks, nobody has told anybody "the truth". Just what you believe to be the truth. You are, of course, all wrong. :D
 
vpb said:
;D;D;D;D
a buthist
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Yup. Most Buddhists are, in fact, atheists in that we don't believe in a God. The "sort of" is there as the modern popular concept of an 'atheist' is that they deny all religion, but that is not actually what the word means. The Buddha himself was, I suppose, what we would today call agnostic; it didn't matter to him whether there was a God or not as if there was he/she/it would still be subject to the same laws of cause and effect, suffering and rebirth as everything else. He specifically denied the existence of a creator God.
 
Trumble said:
Yup. Most Buddhists are, in fact, atheists in that we don't believe in a God. The "sort of" is there as the modern popular concept of an 'atheist' is that they deny all religion, but that is not actually what the word means. The Buddha himself was, I suppose, what we would today call agnostic; it didn't matter to him whether there was a God or not as if there was he/she/it would still be subject to the same laws of cause and effect, suffering and rebirth as everything else. He specifically denied the existence of a creator God.
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Are there any threads about Buddhism, like "Questions About Buddhism Answered by a Buddhist"? I was wondering the connection between Buddhism and Hinduism and how Buddha ended up believing in NO god if he was ever a part of Hinduism with its millions of gods.

Of course, HERE, that would be WAY off topic!
 
Grace Seeker said:
You say that Muslims may prefer that we use "Father" when referring to God. But do you really want me to start talking of Allah the Father?
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No, that sounds odd, too. I was just making the point that the "Father" concept in Christianity most closely approximates our concept of Allah. We don't have a concept of Allah having a Son or ever existing in human form and we don't have a concept of Allah dwelling inside us through "baptism of the Holy Spirit".
It doesn't describe Allah's fullness does it, anymore than the one name of Allah would be true to your experience.
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Yes, the other descriptive (Merciful, Compassionate, Just, Wise, All Hearing, etc) names of Allah give us a better understanding of Him than to just use Allah.

When I say God I mean so much more than just Father. To speak of God as just the Father and then add Jesus and the Holy Spirit would be like to make one God into three (something I think you actually understand we really don't believe).
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Yes, I understand that you don't believe that, but from the Muslim perspective that is exactly what we see.
 
Phil12123 said:
Are there any threads about Buddhism, like "Questions About Buddhism Answered by a Buddhist"? I was wondering the connection between Buddhism and Hinduism and how Buddha ended up believing in NO god if he was ever a part of Hinduism with its millions of gods.

Of course, HERE, that would be WAY off topic!
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Yup... I started one a while ago. I'll drag it up and answer your question there.
 
Phil12123 said:
Then HOW could you just toss all that away??? Certainly the words of those songs must have meant something as you were singing them. I cannot imagine you being truly born again and trusting in Jesus as Savior and Lord and then casting that all away. Did you really do that?
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I understand your perspective. I would feel the same way towards someone who apostatized from Islam. You may question whether I was ever "born again and trusted Jesus as Saviour and Lord", but until I was 21 years old and a senior in college I felt that I was a sincere Christian. You may even snicker and laugh at me as others have done, but, yes, I "cast that all away" and chose the simplicity of Islam with the fundamental belief in One God.

Yes, the words in those Christian songs meant a lot to me and to a large extent many of them still do. I don't remember all of the words, but I can still sing them to myself in the confines of my mind. When I hear "How Great Thou Art", I want to shout, "Glory to God". When I hear "Amazing Grace", it brings tears to my eyes that God showed even me a lowly sinner the Truth. When I hear "Mansion on a Hilltop", I have the same joy (but perhaps less certainty) I felt as a Christian.
 
Although most of my Christian days were spent as a Catholic I was from the days when the mass was still said in Latin and the Sunday High Mass was a Gregorian Mass. I still can remember the old Gregorian Chants and the beauty they held. Later when I decided Catholicism was in Error and I began searching. Oddly all of the hymns and singing in the non-Catholic churches turned me off. I can attribute that to my hearing problems and many forms of music cause me to have very severe headaches and I can not understand the words.

However, now I have discovered nasheeds and the non-instrumental ones I can understand perfectly and the words actually bring tears to me from their beauty. I never tire of them and although they are now just about the only sounds I can hear clearly, I don't feel any need to hear anything else and I feel blessed that my partial deafness blocks out other sounds.
 

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