Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[Redeemed]

If this thread gets deleted, the trinity discussions will still continue so what is the point of everyone asking to delete it. It will just get reopened or given a different title to match the discussions if they can be called that.

 

[Redeemed]

Well, first, it wasn't me, but another who asked the question. But that is no matter, I was just questioning your response.




Sure, if you have proven that Muhammad (pbuh) is actually a messenger of God, then one might suppose that the message he delivers is God's message and thus true. (Though just because one is a messenger of God does not necessarily mean that every thing he says is from God and that he cannot say something else. But we will assume a degree of integrity with regard to Muhammad, pbuh, so as to leave this issue aside.) And you assert that you have proved this to be true elsewhere in the forum. However, as the forum as been around a long time and not all current posters in this thread would necessarily have read those proofs, it might be helpful if you could provide a link to what you understand those proofs to be.

To just assert that Muhammad said that the Qur'an is the word of God and the Qur'an says that Muhammad is God's messenger is still by itself a circular argument.

BTW, it is OK to say that you accept this as true as a part of your faith. But it is not the same as "proof" for one who does not share that same faith. I assert that the Bible is not corrupted, but I don't think I could ever "prove" it to your satisfaction as a Muslim or to any Muslim who held to the authority of the Qur'an , even if I was able to convince the rest of the world of the Bible's veracity. I think that for some of these things we are just going to have to accept the fact that we have different views as to how and through whom God has spoken and the validity of the records which purport to record those revelations, history, or interpretations of their meanings.

If the Old Testament prophets said something that was not from God, they were to be stoned to death.

 

[جوري]

Jesus will get the reward of His suffering!

I am curious who will reward Jesus? why is your God ineffectual with needy human traits?

 

[جوري]

If the Old Testament prophets said something that was not from God, they were to be stoned to death.

I think we should re-implement stoning for hypocrites and liars and innovators.. where should we start? so much to sort through.. hmmmmn

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Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
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John Darby's New Translation
Weymouth New Testament Translation
Rotherham's

 

[Redeemed]

I think we should re-implement stoning for hypocrites and liars and innovators.. where should we start? so much to sort through.. hmmmmn

King James Version (KJV)
The New King James Version (NKJV)
Modern King James Version [Green's Translation] (MKJV)
Literal Translation Version [Green] (LITV)
International Standard Version (ISV)
The New International Version (NIV)
English Standard Version (ESV)
New English Bible (NEB)
American Standard Version (ASV)
New American Standard Bible (NASB)
Revised Standard Version (RSV)
New Revised Standard Version (NRSV) Contemporary English Version (CEV)
Today's English Version (TEV)
The Living Bible (LB)
New Century Version (NC)
New Life Version (NLV)
New Living Translation (NLT)
Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
Revised Young's Literal Translation (RYLT)
John Darby's New Translation
Weymouth New Testament Translation
Rotherham's

God created us in his image and likeness. By the way, you inadvently answered my question about your consenting to my hanging if an Islamic court accused me of blasphmey.

 

[Redeemed]

Salaam,

And about the idea of muslim and chrisitan and every faith to pray for peace..


the Quran has already answered this..

there is a verse that say,IF ALLAH WILLS IT THEN ALL OF MANKIND WILL BE ONE RACE AND ONE RELIGION.

But that wont happen..for this world is a test.

Yes, you a partly right. We are here on earth for a few reasons: to be tested; to be a steward, and to fellowship with God, but the reason it is not all one religion is bc of our free will. We have no choice over race!

 

[MustafaMc]

Perhaps then Purest Ambrosia is right. This thread is going to ultimately be fruitless. If you understand the Bible to be in error, then it matters not that Christians can show how, even though the word "Trinity" is not in the Bible, that the concepts which became later forumalted as the Doctrine of the Trinity are themselve revelations with regard to God found in the Bible. Proving this would be of no value to a Muslim, simply because a Muslim does not accept it as a true revelation of God. Why should a Muslim then accept any of the teachings derived from such a false book?

Yes, I agree. The Christian teachings of Jesus (pbuh) being Son of God and at the same time God incarnate is directly contrary to our most fundamental belief that God is One. You can try to expalin how God can manifest Himself simultaneously as Father, Son and Holy Spirit, but no Muslim will believe this to be the Truth.

And likewise, as Christians do not accept that the Qur'an is truly a record of a message from God for Muhammad deliver to all people, then all the verses that are shared with us from the Qur'an to tell us how much in error we are, are received as being just as baseless.

Yes, that is your choice to make and except that Allah guides you, I believe that it is impossible for one to choose to change his religion. I can't convince you and likewise you can't convince me. Guidance comes only from Allah and deceit comes from Satan. Each of us believes that he is the guided one and that the other one is astray. Allah will judge between us.

(This is what makes the arguments that take place here where people try to evangelize or proselytze each other so silly. No one is really listening on the other end. We are all just talking to ourselves in those posts.)

The only value in the conversation would be wherein Muslims actually wish to learn and understand how or why it is that Christians understand the Trinity as they do.

To be honest, I don't think Muslims try to make sense out of this Christian mystery of Trinity. It is something that one either accepts blindly or rejects outright.

Or wherein Christians wish to understand what it is about the Trinity that Muslims cannot ever accept and why that is the case. Unless our goal is to seek to understand where the other is coming from and why it is that they see things that way, there is little purpose to these sorts of thread. At least that is my humble opinion.

If I might, may I suggest to those not willing to try on the other person's shoe (I'm not saying to walk in them, but to at least try it on) that they find other venues more appropriate to the types of conversations and discussions they wish to have.


MODS: Please delete this post if you think I am wrong in making this request.

Hopefully, you understand why we reject the Trinity concept. If not, then it is because it is contrary to our most basic belief found in Surah Ikhlas Say: He is Allah the One and Only; Allah is the Self-Sufficient (independent of all, while all are dependent on Him); He begets not, nor is He begotten; And there is none comparable to Him. Personally, my goal is to spread the Message of Islam and to accurately answer honest questions about Islam.

I can see a lot of good in Christians who follow the remnant teachings of Jesus (pbuh) in the NT, such as Sermon on the Mount, parable of Good Samaritan, etc. Qurqan 5:82 You will find the most violent in enmity to the believers are the Jews and the mushrikin (pagan Arabs); and nearest in affection to the believers are those who say: "We are Christians." That is because among them there are men that are priests and monks, who do not behave arrogantly. I also see that there are some Christians on this forum that want to learn about Islam.

Ultimately, judgment lies with Allah, but I see that we should try to spread our messages that we believe to be the Truth. God willing, He will guide the one that is misguided before it is too late and death arrives.

 

[MustafaMc]

Yes, you a partly right. We are here on earth for a few reasons: to be tested; to be a steward, and to fellowship with God, but the reason it is not all one religion is bc of our free will. We have no choice over race!

I partly agree - we are here to be tested and to submit our wills to Allah and to worship Him as He has instructed us to.

What does race have to do with anything. I am a Caucasian American and I pray alongside, follow, or lead in prayer those of all races. There is no superiority of one over the other except in matters of piety, righteousness and strength of faith.

 

[Redeemed]

I partly agree - we are here to be tested and to submit our wills to Allah and to worship Him as He has instructed us to.

What does race have to do with anything. I am a Caucasian American and I pray alongside, follow, or lead in prayer those of all races. There is no superiority of one over the other except in matters of piety, righteousness and strength of faith.

I didn't say race as anything to do with it. You are the one that brought up race orginally. I simply said and meant we have no choice in choosing what our race will be.

 

[Woodrow]

If this thread gets deleted, the trinity discussions will still continue so what is the point of everyone asking to delete it. It will just get reopened or given a different title to match the discussions if they can be called that.

I personally have no intent for this thread to be deleted. It is one of the most useful threads I have seen to show the fallacy of trinitarian belief. Any non-Christian reading this thread is immediately aware of the biggest error of Christianity. I would say that this has become the best refutation for the existence of Trinitarian belief possible.

Now it is true it does cause anger, because it is bordering on blasphemy and it is an insult to our beloved Prophet Isa(as). But, it is showing the error of Christianity and verifies that Christians do not worship Allah(swt) anymore and have accepted polytheism

 

[Redeemed]

I personally have no intent for this thread to be deleted. It is one of the most useful threads I have seen to show the fallacy of trinitarian belief. Any non-Christian reading this thread is immediately aware of the biggest error of Christianity. I would say that this has become the best refutation for the existence of Trinitarian belief possible.

Now it is true it does cause anger, because it is bordering on blasphemy and it is an insult to our beloved Prophet Isa(as). But, it is showing the error of Christianity and verifies that Christians do not worship Allah(swt) anymore and have accepted polytheism

Wow, that took me by surprise. I thought you were on the verge of deleting this post!

 

[جوري]

^^^No.. all members wish to keep this thread... it is good for a chuckle... (what you'll end up being) if you become Christian....You are the best walking advertisement
All we can say is thank you!

 

[Keltoi]

The past few posts have convinced me that this thread is indeed useless. I will not be wasting my time any longer. If other Christians wish to waste their time, I admire their patience and willpower. Don't get me wrong, the insulting comments and the like don't concern me, that isn't why I think the thread is useless. I simply believe any chance for constructive discussion has long since been passed. Anywho, for the Americans out there, happy Fourth of July!

 

[Redeemed]

^^^No.. all members wish to keep this thread... it is good for a chuckle... (what you'll end up being) if you become Christian....You are the best walking advertisement
All we can say is thank you!

If this post is going to be used to laugh at Christians, than it would be better deleted. We Christians unequivocally believe in ONE GOD!!! Please don't tell us we are polytheistic. That is very insulting. You don't know what we believe, when you say that. You should take our word for it, but instead you seem to enjoy misrepresenting us. :blind:

 

[Muslim Woman]

With the name of ALLAH (God Almighty) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

uhhh , came back after collecting some rewards ( hopefully :statisfie )


now again a short ans .

.. Please keep in mind he did doubt his own visions and it wasn't his being awestruck by the revelations it was fear and doubt.

revealatons came through long 23 years. Are u trying to say that all these 23 years , Muhammed (p) had doubt in his mind ? What proof do u have ?


why u think , the then non-Muslim leaders offered him money , women & others things & Muhammed (p) answered ( not the exact words ) , if u bring sun to my right hand & moon at my left hand , by God , i won't stop preaching ?

When he was in the cave & enemies were so close to him , Muhammed (p) assured Abu Bakr (ra ) , dont fear , we are not only 2 here , God is with us .

A man if he had any doubt about God or his prophethood , do u think , it would have been possible for him to answer like that ?

Sura Lahab was revealed that told people that Prophet's uncle will die as a non-Muslim. After that revealation , Abu Lahab started threatning Muslims that ok , i will become Muslim & will prove that Quran is wrong .


Many Muslims got afraid but long 10 or 12 years gone , Abu Lahab did not accept Islam even for one day . How come Muhammed (p) was so brave to throw a challege like this if he was a fake one ?

If u read his life , u will find so many amazing stories like that one. Remember his challange to Christian missionaries . If u don't know , Insha Allah will write later.

but the last Adam is Jesus

what does it mean ?

Jesus (p) told that ( not the exact words ) if i don't go away , paraclete ( yak , spell :-[ ) won't come. It's better for me to go........if no one is supposed to come after Jesus (p) , why he said so ?

 

[Redeemed]

The past few posts have convinced me that this thread is indeed useless. I will not be wasting my time any longer. If other Christians wish to waste their time, I admire their patience and willpower. Don't get me wrong, the insulting comments and the like don't concern me, that isn't why I think the thread is useless. I simply believe any chance for constructive discussion has long since been passed. Anywho, for the Americans out there, happy Fourth of July!

Ditto

 

[جوري]

If this post is going to be used to laugh at Christians, than it would be better deleted. We Christians unequivocally believe in ONE GOD!!! Please don't tell us we are polytheistic. That is very insulting. You don't know what we believe, when you say that. You should take our word for it, but instead you seem to enjoy misrepresenting us. :blind:

No, I think you are doing a good job misrepresenting on your own accord!
It really shouldn't bother you what I think of your faith, so long as you are happy with it!

peace!

 

[Redeemed]

No, I think you are doing a good job misrepresenting on your own accord!
It really shouldn't bother you what I think of your faith, so long as you are happy with it!

peace!

you win

 

[Redeemed]

With the name of ALLAH (God Almighty) -The Bestower Of Unlimited Mercy, The Continously Merciful


Assalamu Alaikum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuh (May the peace, mercy and blessings of Allah be upon you)

&&

uhhh , came back after collecting some rewards ( hopefully :statisfie )


now again a short ans .





revealatons came through long 23 years. Are u trying to say that all these 23 years , Muhammed (p) had doubt in his mind ? What proof do u have ?


why u think , the then non-Muslim leaders offered him money , women & others things & Muhammed (p) answered ( not the exact words ) , if u bring sun to my right hand & moon at my left hand , by God , i won't stop preaching ?

When he was in the cave & enemies were so close to him , Muhammed (p) assured Abu Bakr (ra ) , dont fear , we are not only 2 here , God is with us .

A man if he had any doubt about God or his prophethood , do u think , it would have been possible for him to answer like that ?

Sura Lahab was revealed that told people that Prophet's uncle will die as a non-Muslim. After that revealation , Abu Lahab started threatning Muslims that ok , i will become Muslim & will prove that Quran is wrong .


Many Muslims got afraid but long 10 or 12 years gone , Abu Lahab did not accept Islam even for one day . How come Muhammed (p) was so brave to throw a challege like this if he was a fake one ?

If u read his life , u will find so many amazing stories like that one. Remember his challange to Christian missionaries . If u don't know , Insha Allah will write later.



what does it mean ?

Jesus (p) told that ( not the exact words ) if i don't go away , paraclete ( yak , spell :-[ ) won't come. It's better for me to go........if no one is supposed to come after Jesus (p) , why he said so ?

It means that through Adam we inherited a sinful nature but through Christ we inherit eternal life and a righteous spirit

 

[rav]

If this post is going to be used to laugh at Christians, than it would be better deleted. We Christians unequivocally believe in ONE GOD!!! Please don't tell us we are polytheistic. That is very insulting. You don't know what we believe, when you say that. You should take our word for it, but instead you seem to enjoy misrepresenting us. :blind:

Shalom,

You can believe what you wish in regards to what you believe, and no one is trying to take that away from you, but I must point out something. In the Jewish sense of the word, when someone worships what a man, it is idolatry. You have every right to view Jesus as a god, or part of some type of whole god, but Judaism labels Jesus as a man, and therefore, to worship him is in our view complete idolatry. Idolatry does not alter its definition based on how a specific religion views what it worships. It is based on how Judaism views what it worships (sorry). Therefore, we do not believe you worship one god. Your welcome to believe you do, but please respect my beliefs that you do not worship one god.