Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[Keltoi]

Shalom,

You can believe what you wish in regards to what you believe, and no one is trying to take that away from you, but I must point out something. In the Jewish sense of the word, when someone worships what a man, it is idolatry. You have every right to view Jesus as a god, or part of some type of whole god, but Judaism labels Jesus as a man, and therefore, to worship him is in our view complete idolatry. Idolatry does not alter its definition based on how a specific religion views what it worships. It is based on how Judaism views what it worships (sorry). Therefore, we do not believe you worship one god. Your welcome to believe you do, but please respect my beliefs that you do not worship one god.

I will break my vow not to add to this thread to reply to Rav, whom I do respect. If we as Christians are supposed to respect your beliefs in regards to us, then isn't the reverse also applicable? Trust me, we are well aware of the Jewish and Islamic points of view on this topic. Just as Jews or Muslims believe Christians are committing "idolatry", Christians believe Jews "missed the boat" so to speak, and that Muslims worship a false prophet. So where does that leave us? We can sit here going back and forth with circular argument without end, or we can attempt to understand one another through worthwhile dialogue. With all due respect, a Jew or a Muslim telling me what I believe is not respectful, and it is not worthwhile. Just as I don't tell a Jew or a Muslim what they believe. To use an old saying, if you want respect you have to earn it. Usually that requires a little respect from both parties. This wasn't directed at you personally by the way, just wanted to add this final little rant.

 

[doorster]

I will break my vow not to add to this thread to reply to Rav, whom I do respect. If we as Christians are supposed to respect your beliefs in regards to us, then isn't the reverse also applicable? Trust me, we are well aware of the Jewish and Islamic points of view on this topic. Just as Jews or Muslims believe Christians are committing "idolatry", Christians believe Jews "missed the boat" so to speak, and that Muslims worship a false prophet. So where does that leave us? We can sit here going back and forth with circular argument without end, or we can attempt to understand one another through worthwhile dialogue. With all due respect, a Jew or a Muslim telling me what I believe is not respectful, and it is not worthwhile. Just as I don't tell a Jew or a Muslim what they believe. To use an old saying, if you want respect you have to earn it. Usually that requires a little respect from both parties. This wasn't directed at you personally by the way, just wanted to add this final little rant.

at last!

thanks a million for clarifying something for me

 

[Keltoi]

at last!

thanks a million for clarifying something for me

Yeah, I bet that came as a real shocker...:rollseyes

It is also very telling that your response to that was "at last", as I think it is probably true that since we are Christians in a Muslim forum, we refrain, in large part, from making any insulting or offensive descriptions of just what we think you believe. Doesn't sit well does it?

 

[doorster]

Yeah, I bet that came as a real shocker...:rollseyes

It is also very telling that your response to that was "at last", as I think it is probably true that since we are Christians in a Muslim forum, we refrain, in large part, from making any insulting or offensive descriptions of just what we think you believe. Doesn't sit well does it?

I had heard it before from many loons and dipsticks like alpiana before but I could never get a person whom I respected to say it before (in real or cyber world) until today.

Salam

 

[جوري]

Keltoi;784858]Yeah, I bet that came as a real shocker...:rollseyes

Why don't you roll your eyes back like that when you read the posts written by your overtly zealot, servile self-seeking jester and "bros. of yours in Christianity" ?

peace!

 

[Keltoi]

Why don't you roll your eyes back like that when you read the posts written by your overtly zealot, servile self-seeking jester and "bros. of yours in Christianity" ?

peace!

Who exactly are you referring to, and why would I be rolling my eyes?

 

[rav]

I will break my vow not to add to this thread to reply to Rav, whom I do respect. If we as Christians are supposed to respect your beliefs in regards to us, then isn't the reverse also applicable? Trust me, we are well aware of the Jewish and Islamic points of view on this topic. Just as Jews or Muslims believe Christians are committing "idolatry", Christians believe Jews "missed the boat" so to speak, and that Muslims worship a false prophet. So where does that leave us? We can sit here going back and forth with circular argument without end, or we can attempt to understand one another through worthwhile dialogue. With all due respect, a Jew or a Muslim telling me what I believe is not respectful, and it is not worthwhile. Just as I don't tell a Jew or a Muslim what they believe. To use an old saying, if you want respect you have to earn it. Usually that requires a little respect from both parties. This wasn't directed at you personally by the way, just wanted to add this final little rant.

True, respect is needed, but I am not telling you that you believe you worship three (or two) gods. I believe that you hold that you worship the one true G-d, but I have to disagree. I can still respect your right to worship and believe a certain way, but disagree that it is not idolatry.

A perfect example would be that in Holland smoking "weed" in legal, so you could smoke (sorry for the terrible analogy) and I would say, 'where I am from that is against the law, so you are breaking the law according to me'. Then you can say, 'well it is legal here so I am not'. In my mind, (the american law) you are breaking the law, but in your mind (dutch law) you are not. Regardless of if it is legal in Holland, it is illegal in America (ie. Judaism).

 

[Keltoi]

I had heard it before from many loons and dipsticks like alpiana before but I could never get a person whom I respected to say it before (in real or cyber world) until today.

Salam

Aww...loons and dipsticks. Should it come as a great surprise to you that your beliefs about Christianity being a "false" religion also has an opposite side? Yes, the reverse is also true. I thought that would be obvious and taken for granted. That is why I believe this thread to be useless, as we will always arrive back at square one. The Christian members have for the most part given worthwhile and informative descriptions of our faith in this thread. At this point, I believe anything else will just be petty bickering.

 

[Keltoi]

True, respect is needed, but I am not telling you that you believe you worship three (or two) gods. I believe that you hold that you worship the one true G-d, but I have to disagree. I can still respect your right to worship and believe a certain way, but disagree that it is not idolatry.

A perfect example would be that in Holland smoking "weed" in legal, so you could smoke (sorry for the terrible analogy) and I would say, 'where I am from that is against the law, so you are breaking the law according to me'. Then you can say, 'well it is legal here so I am not'. In my mind, (the american law) you are breaking the law, but in your mind (dutch law) you are not. Regardless of if it is legal in Holland, it is illegal in America (ie. Judaism).

I can agree with you on that point, although I must say that is indeed a horrible analogy...

As I stated, we all understand that the other religion isn't our own. I had the naive hope we could get past that and simply discuss our faith in a worthwhile fashion.

 

[جوري]

Who exactly are you referring to, and why would I be rolling my eyes?

I am referring to "alapiana"-- surely it should be obvious? 50 pages of ragging even the most enduring Muslims on board. I don't think he reflects very well on Christianity! But I have no reservations whatsoever perceiving you all as such -- if he indeed mirrors your views!-- all I can do is shake my head in amazement-- Perhaps you enjoy those sort of verbal calisthenics... by all means roll back your eyes in the horizontal!

peace!

 

[Keltoi]

I am referring to "alapiana"-- surely it should be obvious? 50 pages of ragging even the most enduring Muslims on board. I don't think he reflects very well on Christianity! But I have no reservations whatsoever perceiving you all as such -- if he indeed mirrors your views!-- all I can do is shake my head in amazement-- Perhaps you enjoy those sort of verbal calisthenics... by all means roll back your eyes in the horizontal!

peace!

"ragging the most enduring Muslims on board". What does that mean exactly? If you mean challenging people about their faith, then this whole thread is nothing more than a "rag", except for a few isolated posts here and there. Just adds to my belief that this thread has served whatever purpose it had to begin with. If you have a problem with "alapiana", take it up with him in private. That is what I do...or I do now after he berated me for doing it in public.

 

[جوري]

"ragging the most enduring Muslims on board". What does that mean exactly?

rag
One entry found.

rag[3,transitive verb]



Main Entry: 3rag
Function: transitive verb
Inflected Form(s): ragged \ˈragd\; rag·ging
Etymology: origin unknown
Date: 1739
1 : to rail at : scold
2 : torment, tease
— rag on: to make fun of

in other words I should have added on. sry my bad... was in a rush

If you mean challenging people about their faith,

No he isn't challenging-- but many things synonymous with irritating--chafing--etc you get the pic

then this whole thread is nothing more than a "rag", except for a few isolated posts here and there.

Agreed.. indeed and I thank the Muslim members for keeping it from a complete descent!

Just adds to my belief that this thread has served whatever purpose it had to begin with.

I never thought it had a purpose... I even stated so 10 pages or so ago... my astonishment to how long this has been dragged!

If you have a problem with "alapiana", take it up with him in private.

I don't wish to be within a mile from the fellow and it is my own personal belief that he should seek counseling.... I don't think he is handling this well at all!

That is what I do...or I do now after he berated me for doing it in public.

You are certainly more cavalier than I, I should commend you!

peace!

 

[Woodrow]

This thread has reached the point where it is simply personal bickering. I can not think of any reason it should continue. If this does not turn away from personal attacks I will close it because it is breeding mutual anger and ill feelings.

 

[Eric H]

Greetings and peace be with you all, this is my second post in this thread.

We cannot condemn a person for their beliefs. Even when these beliefs are in direct opposition to our own. Despite all our differences there is the need for interfaith friendship, tolerance and understanding.

In the spirit of praying for peace on Earth

Eriic

 

[MustafaMc]

I will break my vow not to add to this thread to reply to Rav, whom I do respect. If we as Christians are supposed to respect your beliefs in regards to us, then isn't the reverse also applicable? Trust me, we are well aware of the Jewish and Islamic points of view on this topic. Just as Jews or Muslims believe Christians are committing "idolatry", Christians believe Jews "missed the boat" so to speak, and that Muslims worship a false prophet. So where does that leave us? We can sit here going back and forth with circular argument without end, or we can attempt to understand one another through worthwhile dialogue. With all due respect, a Jew or a Muslim telling me what I believe is not respectful, and it is not worthwhile. Just as I don't tell a Jew or a Muslim what they believe. To use an old saying, if you want respect you have to earn it. Usually that requires a little respect from both parties. This wasn't directed at you personally by the way, just wanted to add this final little rant.

Please, clarify your point highlighted in blue. I thought that you understood Islamic beliefs better than that. If you really understood and wrote this for spite, then I thought better of you to intentionally lie. You may say that Christians believe that Muslims follow a false prophet, but it is absurd to say that we worship a false prophet. We Muslims are strict monotheists and worship the One God - the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph and his brothers, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Solomon, Jonah, John the Baptist, Jesus and his disciples, and Muhammad (peace and blessings on them all).

 

[Redeemed]

Shalom,

You can believe what you wish in regards to what you believe, and no one is trying to take that away from you, but I must point out something. In the Jewish sense of the word, when someone worships what a man, it is idolatry. You have every right to view Jesus as a god, or part of some type of whole god, but Judaism labels Jesus as a man, and therefore, to worship him is in our view complete idolatry. Idolatry does not alter its definition based on how a specific religion views what it worships. It is based on how Judaism views what it worships (sorry). Therefore, we do not believe you worship one god. Your welcome to believe you do, but please respect my beliefs that you do not worship one god.

I appreciate your input, and I understand where Jews and Muslim are coming from regarding the worship as Jesus being the son of God or who we as Christians consider to be the King of kings and of the Jews. I worship the God of Abraham, Moses, Isaac and Jacob. Read Isaiah 53 and tell me who is the chapter referring to? Out of curiosity, how to you view Jesus?
Shalom

 

[rav]

Read Isaiah 53 and tell me who is the chapter referring to? Out of curiosity, how to you view Jesus?

I have read the passage many times. It has been refuted in the Q/A Judaism thread - to the best of my knowledge. "And he said to me,'You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will be glorified.'" -Isaiah 49:3 (NRS)

The Jewish people are G-d's servants, not Jesus according to the Jewish view of the passage. I have no view of Jesus because I did not know him. I do not view him as a god, or prophet though.

 

[Keltoi]

Please, clarify your point highlighted in blue. I thought that you understood Islamic beliefs better than that. If you really understood and wrote this for spite, then I thought better of you to intentionally lie. You may say that Christians believe that Muslims follow a false prophet, but it is absurd to say that we worship a false prophet. We Muslims are strict monotheists and worship the One God - the God of Adam, Noah, Abraham, Lot, Isaac, Ishmael, Jacob, Joseph and his brothers, Moses, Aaron, Joshua, David, Solomon, Jonah, John the Baptist, Jesus and his disciples, and Muhammad (peace and blessings on them all).

This has exactly made my point. "You may say that Christians believe that Muslims follow a false prophet, but it is absurd to say that we worship a false prophet." Do you not see the similarity if I state "You may say that we are polytheists, but it is absurd to say that we are polytheists?" It doesn't make sense to tell someone what they believe when it contradicts their own belief does it? It will be taken as an insult. For clarification, Christians do not believe Muhammed to be the final messenger of God. To a Christian, that honor goes to Christ. Whether Muhammed was a prophet of God, I won't be the one to judge.

Hopefully you understand the point, and it wasn't to insult Muslims. I meant to show the futility I as a Christian feel when attempting to explain my faith, only to have the same mantra repeated over and over again. "You are a polytheist". I am not a polytheist. If you believe that I am, regardless of my own beliefs, you can certainly voice that if that is your wish. However, when that same mantra is repeated over and over again, it stops being a statement of belief, and simply another insult. Hopefully I am explaining myself in the way that I wish to. If you don't wish to have your faith insulted, then refrain from insulting mine. I can't make it any plainer than that. I'm not saying you personally have insulted my faith, I'm speaking in general terms about these discussions.

For added clarification, I in no way wish to insult Muslims or the Prophet Muhammed. If I came across that way I apologize.

 

[MustafaMc]

This has exactly made my point. "You may say that Christians believe that Muslims follow a false prophet, but it is absurd to say that we worship a false prophet." Do you not see the similarity if I state "You may say that we are polytheists, but it is absurd to say that we are polytheists?" It doesn't make sense to tell someone what they believe when it contradicts their own belief does it? It will be taken as an insult. For clarification, Christians do not believe Muhammed to be the final messenger of God. To a Christian, that honor goes to Christ. Whether Muhammed was a prophet of God, I won't be the one to judge.

Thank you for the clarification. I understand your tactic as I use it too, and perhaps sarcasm a bit too much as well, but it is all to get a point across for enhanced understanding. I do see your point now and no offence is taken. A major difference between us is that the Quran, which we hold as the literal Word of Allah, speakes clearly about the Christian belief about Jesus (pbuh). Another difference between us is that I used to be a Christian and I assume that other Christians have at least a similar belief toward Jesus (pbuh) as I had then. I do understand that in your mind you are worshiping One God and that the One God exists at the same time in three different "essences". However, according to the Quran and my belief since 1982 this is ascribing partners to Allah Who, according to my understanding, is simply the "Father" in Christian terminology. However, I believe that you mispoke in calling Jesus (pbuh) the "final messenger of God". I believe that you hold Jesus (pbuh) as more "God with us" than a messenger of God. I also believe that you hold Saul/Paul as a messenger of God (Galatians) after Jesus (pbuh) had already ascended to Heaven. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

Hopefully you understand the point, and it wasn't to insult Muslims. I meant to show the futility I as a Christian feel when attempting to explain my faith, only to have the same mantra repeated over and over again. "You are a polytheist". I am not a polytheist. If you believe that I am, regardless of my own beliefs, you can certainly voice that if that is your wish. However, when that same mantra is repeated over and over again, it stops being a statement of belief, and simply another insult. Hopefully I am explaining myself in the way that I wish to. If you don't wish to have your faith insulted, then refrain from insulting mine. I can't make it any plainer than that. I'm not saying you personally have insulted my faith, I'm speaking in general terms about these discussions.

For added clarification, I in no way wish to insult Muslims or the Prophet Muhammed. If I came across that way I apologize.

I was taken aback by those few words as they seemed atypical of your other posts, but I now understand the point that you were trying to make. Still the focal point for Christianity is Jesus (pbuh) who Jews and Muslims and everyone except Christians hold as a man and not God incarnate. In contrast, the focal point for Islam is the One God of a single essence.

 

[Keltoi]

Thank you for the clarification. I understand your tactic as I use it too, and perhaps sarcasm a bit too much as well, but it is all to get a point across for enhanced understanding. I do see your point now and no offence is taken. A major difference between us is that the Quran, which we hold as the literal Word of Allah, speakes clearly about the Christian belief about Jesus (pbuh). Another difference between us is that I used to be a Christian and I assume that other Christians have at least a similar belief toward Jesus (pbuh) as I had then. I do understand that in your mind you are worshiping One God and that the One God exists at the same time in three different "essences". However, according to the Quran and my belief since 1982 this is ascribing partners to Allah Who, according to my understanding, is simply the "Father" in Christian terminology. However, I believe that you mispoke in calling Jesus (pbuh) the "final messenger of God". I believe that you hold Jesus (pbuh) as more "God with us" than a messenger of God. I also believe that you hold Saul/Paul as a messenger of God (Galatians) after Jesus (pbuh) had already ascended to Heaven. Please, correct me if I am wrong.

I was taken aback by those few words as they seemed atypical of your other posts, but I now understand the point that you were trying to make. Still the focal point for Christianity is Jesus (pbuh) who Jews and Muslims and everyone except Christians hold as a man and not God incarnate. In contrast, the focal point for Islam is the One God of a single essence.

Yes, you do understand my point, and I'm glad no offense is taken. Your description of Christ as "God with us" is also accurate, and probably a better description than mine. Since Christ did bring a Message with Him, I referred to Him as a messenger.

On the other matters, I understand what non-Christians say we are. I understand that in the Quran it calls Christians "polytheists." I have no problem with someone stating that as an explanation of belief, but there is also a fine line between a statement of belief and simply an offensive statement. My sincere hope is that these discussions can turn away from Muslims trying to convince Christians that they are polytheists, or Christians trying to convince Muslims that their faith is in error. It will always breed resentment and anger, on both sides. I must say that I was deeply offended by Woodrow's post stating that this thread should stay open because it shows how, in essense, "stupid" we as Christians are. Now I think I know Woodrow well enough by now to know he would never intentionally say something to insult anyone. This goes back to my point about the difference between a statement of belief and an offensive statement.