Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[vpb]

I don't object to the differences in opinion, but lately it seems like everyone is trying to make converts of the other.

why do you guys pretend to be so strange on this expression?? why are we here on this board?? are we to be """21st century"" people, where we do not dare to tell to somebody that he/she is wrong?? no, there are opinions, but of course on side of opinion is right, most of the time, in the case of religion, is one opinion is right. two religions can't be right. so we discuss so we try to teach others about what we think is right, and tell them not do that thing bc it's wrong. what's wrong with this?, let's be real. we are all here to impose our opinions on others bc we think our opinion is right. let's not lie to ourselves and pretend that "ye ye ye i am talking to him about Jesus, but i'm not trying to make him believe my opinion". that's why we discuss, so we try to make others understand our opinions. it's fair on both sides.

 

[Woodrow]

Can I share my wish that perhaps you might find in the conversation with different Christians here than those you learned about the faith from when you were younger new insights that lead you to reconsider the reasons you previously left it? Or my hope that such reconsideration might even lead to a reawakening of the possibility of having a relationship with God in and through Jesus Christ?

I fully understand that is your hope. That does not offend me and I see it as a reflection of your love to fellow humans.

Gene, I can understand fully that a person who is Christian would believe that I have made a grave error and became an enemy of Christianity. I do understand that they would desire I reconsider and return to Christianity.

I do not believe I am anti-Christian. I truly believe that Islam is the truth that Jesus(as) wanted us to all learn. I feel pure fulfillment in Islam and the Beauty and love of Allah(swt) is an overwhelming awe. I honestly believe that when I was a Christian I was just a toddler in knowing and loving God(swt) I believe the Love I had for Jesus(as) was misdirected as worship and it is through learning to properly love Jesus(as) that I became aware of how to direct my worship to Allah(swt). To me Christianity was a training excercise to discover the reality of Islam and the begining of learning how to submit to the will of Allah(swt) I love Jesus(as) deeply for helping guide me to Allah(swt).

 

[Grace Seeker]

Well in one way you told us that you were able to be dedicated for both, so your statement at the end that you cannot do both is wrong, bc u can do, and you already did one.

but as for being not married, to be 24 hours in the service of Lord, that's extreme.
Allah swt has taught us through His Messenger saws, how to live a life , a normal life where everything has its own right. what do I mean. we know that praying is a very important aspect in muslim's life, but praying all day, and doing nothing else, leaving the family without any income, not do any job, etc. is wrong. Prayer is very good, but it has its limits. That's why in Islam even sleep, is an ibadaah, you get reward if you go to sleep with the intention that you rest your body so you will be able to worship Allah swt tomorrow. Or you worship Allah swt by going to work, where you get your income to feed your family and take care of them. Everything in life , when it is done properly according to teaching of Muhammed saws, is worship to God, so each one has its on rights, its own time. You pray you read qur'an , you study, you sleep, you spend time with u'r wife, kids, etc etc. and as for being dedicated in one thing, and leaving all the other things in deficit, this is not worship, this is extreme, and the offspring of it is nothing. If you consume meat, vegetables , etc etc your body will be very healthy, but if you consume just meat meat meat, you gonna have lack of vitamins etc etc. so it's not the solution to be an extremist in worship God, cuz it leads to nothing. By fullfilling all your duites as a man, or someone as a woman, you fulfuill God's prescribed duties to u. so you please God in every aspect.
A priest, he doesn't get married, for me it is a "zullum" to him, zullum means "doing something bad to him", like you do zullum to someone by robbing someone who worked all day to earn some money, so the preiest is doing zullum to himself, not getting married is an awful thing, it's something that the human nature requires, to have some relationship with the opposite gendre. we see in this case the priest is on extreme, bc he is leaving the duties as a father, a husband , etc. just to fulfill some other duty, it's like cleaning your table in your room, but your closset or your bed is messed up. you have to clean all of them a little bit, so it becomes alltogether a cleaned room.

[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]
[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Reported by an-Nasaa'ee (5/268), ibn Maajah (no. 3029), Ahmad (1/215, 347) with a saheeh sanad.[/FONT]
[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]The Messenger of Allaah (SAW) said, [/FONT][FONT=Helvetica, Arial]"I warn you of extremism in the Religion for indeed those that came before you were destroyed due to their extremism in the religion."[/FONT]




[FONT=Helvetica, Arial]Peace.
[/FONT]

Jesus also said, ""No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." So, even when we marry, we have to be careful that our wife understands that we serve God first. Now, of course it is not only pastors who have to be sure that their spouse understand this, but all persons in all relationships. But in truth there is a special burden on the spouse of a pastor for the demands can come at any time of the day, and often at the most inoportune times, just like with a doctor. It is extreme, I admit, but not in the sense in which you mean it above.

 

[جوري]

Grace Seeker;752394--I think you just called me a simpleton.

No, not you, I had another member in mind really.
Anyhow on this note I make my exit.

peace!

 

[vpb]

Jesus also said, ""No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other." So, even when we marry, we have to be careful that our wife understands that we serve God first. Now, of course it is not only pastors who have to be sure that their spouse understand this, but all persons in all relationships. But in truth there is a special burden on the spouse of a pastor for the demands can come at any time of the day, and often at the most inoportune times, just like with a doctor. It is extreme, I admit, but not in the sense in which you mean it above.

yeah of course, you cannot pretend to love two people equaly cuz you can't. and also the love for God is bigger than any other love, so of course it takes the first priority.

We have examples where Prophet Muhammed saws would just get on bed with Aisha r.a and by the time his skin would touch her skin, the revelation would come to him, he would ask permission from Aisha, to leave in order to recieve the verses. You see He was kind with Aisha, (how many people if they want to leave the bed after they were going to spend the night with his their wife, ask permission from their wife?? It is Muhammed saws who did that) , bc He felt sorry for her that couldn't spend the night with her, and also fullfilled his duty on getting the verses of the Qur'an. So we see goodness on both sides
I think this event happened when 10 last verses of Sur'ah Al-Baqarah were revealed. If i'm wrong pls some correct me.

 

[Phil12123]

It is interesting that you have distilled Christianity down to such a simply worded concept as "sin-eater", though I had never thought of it in those terms before, I can live with it nonetheless. Thank-you for simplifying it for me.

Ambrosia, I must respectfully and vehemently disagree that "sin-eater" is appropriate to describe the redemptive work and atoning death of Christ on the cross. He bore our sins in His own body on the cross, and His blood washes our sins away, but nothing in Scripture even hints at anyone eating sin. So, why do you use that term and where did you get it? From your own fertile mind?

Peace

 

[Woodrow]

Ambrosia, I must respectfully and vehemently disagree that "sin-eater" is appropriate to describe the redemptive work and atoning death of Christ on the cross. He bore our sins in His own body on the cross, and His blood washes our sins away, but nothing in Scripture even hints at anyone eating sin. So, why do you use that term and where did you get it? From your own fertile mind?

Peace

I won't try to put words in Sister Ambrosia's mouth. But, from a Muslim view point that is close to what we see. Not eating in the sense of physicaly putting it in his mouth but more as a metaphor such as somebody who accepts the danger and punishment for you.

i.e. "He ate the bullet for me."


I know that for you that is a beautiful thought. As a Muslim I see it as totaly unnecessary as I know Allah(swt) can and will forgive sins with just the will of His mercy. To me the Mercy of Allah(swt) is much more beautiful than thinking Allah(swt) is too weak to simply will our forgiveness.

The truth is it all comes down as to which is the truth the Qur'an or the Bible. I doubt we will agree on which is right, so best we can do is disagree in peace.

 

[Phil12123]

This thread has gone fruitless and should be closed.

Or, you could simply leave and post to another thread that you don't think has gone fruitless, leaving us to our fruitless conversations!

Peace

 

[Woodrow]

Or, you could simply leave and post to another thread that you don't think has gone fruitless, leaving us to our fruitless conversations!

Peace

See, there is something we agree on.

There will always be some differences between people of different faiths. If those differences did not exist we would all be one faith. Hopefully, peaceful debate can be a way for all of us to face those differences in a peaceful manner. It is for that reason I think this thread still has some value.

 

[Phil12123]

I won't try to put words in Sister Ambrosia's mouth. But, from a Muslim view point that is close to what we see. Not eating in the sense of physicaly putting it in his mouth but more as a metaphor such as somebody who accepts the danger and punishment for you.

i.e. "He ate the bullet for me."

I know that for you that is a beautiful thought. As a Muslim I see it as totaly unnecessary as I know Allah(swt) can and will forgive sins with just the will of His mercy. To me the Mercy of Allah(swt) is much more beautiful than thinking Allah(swt) is too weak to simply will our forgiveness.

The truth is it all comes down as to which is the truth the Qur'an or the Bible. I doubt we will agree on which is right, so best we can do is disagree in peace.

Your last paragraph I heartily agree with. The one before that, I would say that for Allah to "forgive sins with just the will of His mercy" is not a matter of not being "too weak to simply will our forgiveness". It comes down to ignoring or overlooking sins and not holding anyone accountable for them. And in my mind that means he is not just. I don't mean "not fair" but not just, in terms of justice. I also don't mean to be repetitive, but if God is just, I will have to pay for my sins---every one of them---unless Christ made that payment. To me it's such a simple, easy concept, but to all of you Muslims, you reject it and that is just hard for me to understand. What it boils down to is Christ died in vain if sins are forgiven without His death being the basis for that forgiveness.

Peace

 

[Phil12123]

See, there is something we agree on.

There will always be some differences between people of different faiths. If those differences did not exist we would all be one faith. Hopefully, peaceful debate can be a way for all of us to face those differences in a peaceful manner. It is for that reason I think this thread still has some value.

Agreed!!!

 

[Woodrow]

Your last paragraph I heartily agree with. The one before that, I would say that for Allah to "forgive sins with just the will of His mercy" is not a matter of not being "too weak to simply will our forgiveness". It comes down to ignoring or overlooking sins and not holding anyone accountable for them. And in my mind that means he is not just. I don't mean "not fair" but not just, in terms of justice. I also don't mean to be repetitive, but if God is just, I will have to pay for my sins---every one of them---unless Christ made that payment. To me it's such a simple, easy concept, but to all of you Muslims, you reject it and that is just hard for me to understand. What it boils down to is Christ died in vain if sins are forgiven without His death being the basis for that forgiveness.

Peace

Peace Phil,

You just typed a very key sentence.

What it boils down to is Christ died in vain if sins are forgiven without His death being the basis for that forgiveness.

That is very true, If Isa(as) had died on the cross for our sins.


We do not believe Isa(as) has died an earthy death and was taken up to Allah(swt) and will return to live the remainder of his earthly life during which he will destroy the anti-Christ.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Your last paragraph I heartily agree with. The one before that, I would say that for Allah to "forgive sins with just the will of His mercy" is not a matter of not being "too weak to simply will our forgiveness". It comes down to ignoring or overlooking sins and not holding anyone accountable for them. And in my mind that means he is not just. I don't mean "not fair" but not just, in terms of justice. I also don't mean to be repetitive, but if God is just, I will have to pay for my sins---every one of them---unless Christ made that payment. To me it's such a simple, easy concept, but to all of you Muslims, you reject it and that is just hard for me to understand. What it boils down to is Christ died in vain if sins are forgiven without His death being the basis for that forgiveness.

Peace

Not to take up the Muslim cause here, but as a pastor I find that this idea of vicarious atonement is one of the more difficult ones to explain to other, especially young, Christians. It doesn't surprise me at all that many (not all) of the the young Mulsim reverts that I meet often cite their inability to come to some sort of understanding of how this worked as reasons they left Christianity. Of course not all who feel this way become Muslims, some become Jews or drop out of religion altogether. In your experience, how have you explain the vicarious atonement in ways that those who were questioning it found helpful?

 

[Phil12123]

Not to take up the Muslim cause here, but as a pastor I find that this idea of vicarious atonement is one of the more difficult ones to explain to other, especially young, Christians. It doesn't surprise me at all that many (not all) of the the young Mulsim reverts that I meet often cite their inability to come to some sort of understanding of how this worked as reasons they left Christianity. Of course not all who feel this way become Muslims, some become Jews or drop out of religion altogether. In your experience, how have you explain the vicarious atonement in ways that those who were questioning it found helpful?

I wouldn't explain it any differently to a young Christian than I've tried to explain it here on this board. In fact, a person cannot become a Christian without believing the idea of vicarious atonement---that is the heart of the Gospel. He may not recognize that term, but surely he understands and believes that Jesus died for his sins and rose again. The "for his sins" makes it vicarious, since Christ did not die for any of His own; He had none. Of course, a new Christian does not have the baggage of the erroneous notion that Christ never actually died on a cross but God rescued Him and had someone else die there. To me that is as hard to swallow as anything else I've heard on this board. In fact, I believe that's a lie from the pit of hell, or from the devil wherever he is. And I think that opinion is supported by history.

Peace

 

[Redeemed]

Salaam/ peace ;





Muslims respect Jesus (p) & some Christians take advantage of it. U know that we won’t attack Jesus (p) or any other Biblical Prophets (pbut ) ; so u r writing freely against our respected Prophet .

I don’t understand how it’s possible that in an Islamic forum , one can write such a negative post against the Last Prophet (p) .






- Yap sure ; early marriage is prohibited by man’s law & we see thousands & thousands young unmarried mothers in the west.


-
- So many young girls are having illegal married lives with unlimited husbands …... School girls going to abortion clinics . LOL




How many times do we have to tell u that this was a blessed marriage ? In Islam ,no one is forcing any parent or daughter to say to a marriage proposal

.
No one forced Aisha ( ra ) to marry the Prophet (p) . She was already engaged at that time but that man did not accept Islam & the marriage broke by her father. When God gave permission to Wives of the Prophet to choose if they want divorce , it was Mother Aisha (ra ) who first declared that she wishes to stay with him. Who forced him to say so ?



Early marriage was very common ---still common in many parts of the world.



Sis PurestAmbrosia already posted in one state, Delaware, USA the age of consent was only seven.

Prophet David (p) married a young virgin when he was at death bed. Do Christians bash the Prophet for that or God scolded him ?

Pl. don’t provoke us unneccasarily.



verses of the Day :


Surah 3. The Family Of 'Imran, The House Of 'Imran



Fear the Fire, which is prepared for those who reject Faith:


And obey Allah and the Messenger. that ye may obtain mercy.


Be quick in the race for forgiveness from your Lord, and for a Garden whose width is that (of the whole) of the heavens and of the earth, prepared for the righteous,- ( 3: 131-133)




Say: "O People of the Book!

come to common terms as between us and you: That we worship none but God

that we associate no partners with him; that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other than God."


If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (at least) are Muslims (bowing to God’s Will).

3: 64

Sorry i didn't mean to offend you Muslim Woman. It is written, "Great peace have they which love thy law and nothing shall offend them." I could be wrong about my approach, but I haven't posted untruth knowingly. In other words, I can back it up, and now, I feel that I must. I am not attacking any person's character on this forum like mine is being attacked (everyone knows who’s doing that). I guess I could see why this might offend you. I looked up in the Koran to see if these comments of Caner are truly Muhammad's thoughts and words, and I was able to confirm it to be the case. I can only tell you that if Muslims cut down my beliefs out of sincerity and concern for my soul, I would not be offended or combative. I would understand, even as I believe many of you do. By the way, I agree with the fact that people in society, even in America, allow and allowed early age marriages, but that doesn't make it right or the will of God. Frankly, I can see how that can lead to all kinds of perversions. I really didn't mean to make a big deal about the Prophet's young wife nor did I say anything bad about him for doing it. It was the other things I mentioned that really got to me, but now I feel I need your permission to prove to you the valid source or maybe you already know and don't want me to mention it. You have been patient and respectful to me; so, when you speak, I think twice. Again, I am truly sorry to have offended you.

 

[جوري]

I looked up in the Koran to see if these comments of Caner are truly Muhammad's thoughts and words, and I was able to confirm it to be the case.

Go ahead and bring us your evidence from the Quran then. I see no greater accommodation than this!

 

[Talha777]

To the Christian the Trinity is one God. To the Muslim they are three Gods. To the Christians they are three persons that make one God. To the Muslims that is not possible. Who can explain this? Can it be explained? If we could convince people that God is three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Ghost or just one (Allah) would that solve the bloody trails that have happened over the centuries through religious wars? Are we caught in a spiritual war with truth and deception? Will we learn from the past? We have one Creator who made the Christians and the Muslim persons. We are brothers in humanity. We come from the same creator who is God the Almighty. There is no one like Him. He is the Creator of heaven and earth. His creation brings Him glory. God is alive. He is not dead. He sees the thousands of years of wars over His name. Will He stop this soon? We can't stop it. We need God to do it. Why can't Christians and Muslims pray that God stop this? Don't we collectively make up the greatest of worlds religions and only one of these can be right. We know all other faiths are small and weak compared to the most powerful Creator of the worlds. We know that God is all-powerful. We know that He can intervene. What if all the Christians and Muslims agree on a day to fast and pray that God bring about a revival of truth so that all blinders will be off on this Islamic forum? Questions, questions and more questions????????

If you believe in Trinity, you cannot make your own philosophical speculations about it, or try to justify it with your own logic (if you can call it logic). If you believe in trinity, than you must prove it straight out of the Bible, you must prove every quality you believe about Trinity, straight out of the Bible, including "three gods in one", that all the components of the trinity are from the same substance, and you neither confound the substance, blah, blah, blah. Everything you believe about the trinity must come from your bible.

Then you will realize what a sham your trinity is. It was invented by gentile philosophers influenced by Plato, and has little to do with the Bible. Note that Im not saying the Bible is right. All I am saying is that the New Testament, particularly the writings of Paul and other so called "apostles" clearly show that Christians believe in at least two gods, Jesus and his "Father". They are not one and the same, the NT clearly shows that Jesus is separate from his father, has a different mind from his father, and even prays to his father.


So let us examine the trinity from the bible:

JESUS HAS A DIFFERENT WILL FROM HIS "FATHER", ALSO THE "SON OF GOD" WAS RELUCTANT TO DIE ON THE CROSS, SO MUCH FOR JOHN 3:16
"My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will" (Matthew 26:39)

JESUS IS INFERIOR TO HIS "FATHER"
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. (John 14:28)

JESUS IS INFERIOR TO THE "HOLY GHOST"
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. (matthew 12:32)

THE "SON OF GOD" HAS A "SOUL" AND IS SUBJECT TO DEATH
"My soul is overwhelmed with sorrow to the point of death," (Mark 14:34)

THE "SON OF GOD" PRAYS (TO ANOTHER GOD?)
They went to a place called Gethsemane, and Jesus said to his disciples, "Sit here while I pray." (Mark 14:32)

I can show you literally dozens of verses that breaks all the theories of the trinity that are extra-biblical. many years after Jesus (alaihi salaam) was gone, the Christian theologians debated the doctrine of the trinity, the debate between the nestorians and the orthodox christians over the nature of Jesus are well known, as are the debates over the reality of the "trinity" (a word never mentioned in the bible), yet none of these debates were rooted in scripture, they were all purely philosophical debates, more to do with plato than Jesus or Paul.

So I humbly supplicate to the REAL GOD, Almighty Allah, that may He guide the blind Christians to the Truth of Islam, and that they may accept the Seal of the Prophet, Mustafa (Sallallahu alaihi wa salaam). If they accept Islam, we will accept them as our elder brothers. Ameen.

 

[vpb]

Not even the word 'Bible' itself is mentioned in the Bible .

 

[Keltoi]

Not even the word 'Bible' itself is mentioned in the Bible .

Do you know what "Bible" means and where the word came from?

 

[vpb]

Do you know what "Bible" means and where the word came from?

i'm not talking about the meaning or where it came from, I'm talking about that the word Bible itself is not mentioned in the Bible.