Who is the Trinity to Christians & Muslims?

[Philosopher]

the second I feel can be seen as personal thoughts of the authors. They could very well be true and sound logical, but I think it would be difficult to find verifiable proof.

Would you prefer thoughts of a Cambridge professor who specializes in theology? Sure!

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/criteria.html

 

[Woodrow]

Would you prefer thoughts of a Cambridge professor who specializes in theology? Sure!

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Bible/Text/Mss/criteria.html

To me it looks like an excellent treatise, however I suspect our Christians members will not agree with it as readily as I do.

 

[MustafaMc]

It is not possible for Christians to draw a line between God and Jesus Christ.

Just as it is impossible for Muslims to erase the line that we see between them.

 

[Trumble]

I and my Father are one. John 10:30

Actually, it's "I and the father are one", not only in both the translations I have to hand, but also in the Greek which is quite specific.

ἐγὼ καὶ ὁ πατὴρ ἕν ἐσμεν

"I and the father one are"

In Greek "the" would not be replaced by "my", which is added, i.e it would say in direct transcription "I and the father of me one are". It doesn't say that.

 

[Grace Seeker]

i'm not being sarcastic, just curious since Christian & Muslim always talk about love,brotherhood,similarities and building bridge etc etc.

We love Jesus(as),in fact we cant hate Jesus, i think we already had half of the bridge....

Why Christian reject Muhammad(SAW)?:?

I'm expecting that you will have already received an answer to this question, but I want to write before continuing to read so as not to be swayed by anyone else's comments. Thus, I am speaking only for myself, and not all of Christianity.

I reject Muhammad because I accept the Bible to be the true word of God. That which differs from it, must therefore be false. My guess is that you probably have very similar feelings with regard to the Qur'an. The problem is that they both say rather plainly things that cannot be reconciled with each other. Thus either the Bible is corrupted (the Muslim view), or Muhammad got it wrong (my personal Christian view).

Are there people out there who will differ? Yes, there are people who will differ with both of our views. Consider this woman. She claims to be BOTH Christian and Muslim at the same time; though I am not sure she is either. And I can tell from what she says that she has always believed that she was never truly Christian, how she got ordained is beyond the scope of my imagination.

There is another issue too. We don't reject Muhammad as a person. Indeed I respect him as being a great and capable leader of his people. But that isn't what you mean by believing in Muhammad. Well, when you say that you love Jesus, that is wonderful. But that isn't what we mean when we say that we believe in Jesus. In fact we are even talking about two different types of belief.

As I understand Islam, you believe that Muhammad brought a particular message. He was a prophet, a message bearer. But when we say that we believe in Jesus, it is not about a message. We do not see Jesus as primarily a message bearer. We see Jesus as a sin bearer. If you love Jesus for taking the burden of your sins upon himself, then you believe in Jesus. It means trusting him to have done this and that you can depend on him and his work and his goodness. And it means that you don't have to depend on your own work or your own goodness to connect with God. I understand that Muslims receive Muhammad's message and this tells them how to be good enough for God. Christians would say that one can never be good enough for God, but in Jesus God declares us good enough anyway. When Muhammad tells me that Jesus didn't go to the cross, then Muhammad is telling me that I am still dead in my sins. If I have to chose to trust the words of Muhammad's condemnation or Jesus words of redemption, I'll choose Jesus.

 

[Grace Seeker]

It doesn't matter. eitherway u say.The fact of Jesus being God, the creator of everything and at the same time being Son of God. can't have both toegether. You can either claim Jesus is God, and the creator of everything, or claim that he is just the son of God, and through him your worship God.

Actually we claim it all. Be we won't use the word "just" as you did.

btw, jews took the saying of "son of God" just for a metaphoric use. not physicaly or logicaly.

The Jews of Jesus' day wanted to stone Jesus for blasphemy when he claimed to be the son of God, because they understood that to be the same as claiming to be equal to God.

Of course, they understood Jesus correctly. The only problem with their thinking was they missed the fact that when a man claims to be God and it is true, that it isn't blasphemy.

 

[Grace Seeker]

I know and I undestand what you teach, but it doesn't make sense. but anyways.

being in a flesh doesn't make you son of God.

now you are saying:

but the other verse in the bible, shows that Jesus said that God is one, he didn't say "me and God are one".

Well, we disagree as to our understanding of that verse. I interpret it exactly as you say it is not to be understood.

I will agree with you that it doesn't always make sense. Sometimes there are paradoxes that I have trouble getting my mind around. But there is much in this world that is true that I don't fully understand. It does not bother me that there are things about God that I only perceive dimly at the present. I trust his revelation to still be true and that one day I will understand more fully. (Here Muslims insert ubiquitous line that I will learn about it to my peril. And probably some Christian then responds in kind. Now that I have done that, no one else needs to, please.)

You are right that being in flesh does not make one God. But being God does not mean that you cannot reveal yourself in the flesh. And this is what we claim happened with regard to Jesus. We also understand that God is just one being, and yet not just one person. So each persona of God relates to each other persona in unique and distinct ways -- for instance many Muslims like to quote Jesus saying that the Father is greater than I. This is exactly what every Christian would also say. But that does not make Jesus less than fully God. See Jesus is not a God. The Father is not a God. We don't have a God until we have Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit all three personas in the one being. Then and only then do we have a God. And if you count, you will find that it is therefore, only one God.

Yeah, it is one thing to hear the language and understand what we are trying to say, it is another for it to make sense. I get you on that one.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Absolutely nonsensical. How can one being be the father and son at the same time?? Please study the law of identity.

So, are you trying to tell me that you can't have two persons in one being?

 

[Keltoi]

Well, we disagree as to our understanding of that verse. I interpret it exactly as you say it is not to be understood.

I will agree with you that it doesn't always make sense. Sometimes there are paradoxes that I have trouble getting my mind around. But there is much in this world that is true that I don't fully understand. It does not bother me that there are things about God that I only perceive dimly at the present. I trust his revelation to still be true and that one day I will understand more fully. (Here Muslims insert ubiquitous line that I will learn about it to my peril. And probably some Christian then responds in kind. Now that I have done that, no one else needs to, please.)

You are right that being in flesh does not make one God. But being God does not mean that you cannot reveal yourself in the flesh. And this is what we claim happened with regard to Jesus. We also understand that God is just one being, and yet not just one person. So each persona of God relates to each other persona in unique and distinct ways -- for instance many Muslims like to quote Jesus saying that the Father is greater than I. This is exactly what every Christian would also say. But that does not make Jesus less than fully God. See Jesus is not a God. The Father is not a God. We don't have a God until we have Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit all three personas in the one being. Then and only then do we have a God. And if you count, you will find that it is therefore, only one God.

Yeah, it is one thing to hear the language and understand what we are trying to say, it is another for it to make sense. I get you on that one.

Some people, I've found, tend to think of God as One to the point of creating for Him a human shell that He cannot "escape" from. To me at least, I do not think of God as some bearded Gandalf on a throne in the sky. I'm sure most people don't either, but by denying at least the possiblity that God can and is able to manifest Himself in different ways, is cornering God into a box of human design. Just my thoughts at the moment.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

do christians accept Muhammad as Prophet and Messenger of God?

heehheehee ,of course not . Why do u think we see fighting everywhere in the forum ?

If they start respecting the last Prophet (p) as a Messenger of God , then they will become our bro & sis in Islam

 

[Muslim Woman]

...Jesus(as) has replaced God(swt) for many Christians and soon people will "forget" that God(swt) was the creator.

wonderful post , bro.

yes , it seems to me that Chrisitians give toooooo much importance on Jesus (p ) .

I m afraid , they will soon invent some complicated explanations & will start claiming that Jesus (p) is above God....... may God show us all the right path, Ameen.

 

[Keltoi]

wonderful post , bro.

yes , it seems to me that Chrisitians give toooooo much importance on Jesus (p ) .

I m afraid , they will soon invent some complicated explanations & will start claiming that Jesus (p) is above God....... may God show us all the right path, Ameen.

Why would Christians put Jesus "above" God? How can God be above Himself?

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Why would Christians put Jesus "above" God? How can God be above Himself?

why ....what's the problem ?

If God can become His own son , If God can be equal to His own creation , then why can't Christians put Jesus (p) above God ?

Just invent another mystery & it will be possible.

 

[Keltoi]

Salaam/ peace ;



why ....what's the problem ?

If God can become His own son , If God can be equal to His own creation , then why can't Christians put Jesus (p) above God ?

Just invent another mystery & it will be possible.

Firstly, who said God was "equal" to His own creation? Those are your own words that have nothing to do with Christianity.

As for the rest, it is nothing more than an insult, not unlike if I said Muslims should simply invent another prophet. I don't expect you to share my faith, but I had hoped we were both better than to resort to sarcastic insults.

 

[MustafaMc]

Some people, I've found, tend to think of God as One to the point of creating for Him a human shell that He cannot "escape" from. To me at least, I do not think of God as some bearded Gandalf on a throne in the sky. I'm sure most people don't either, but by denying at least the possiblity that God can and is able to manifest Himself in different ways, is cornering God into a box of human design. Just my thoughts at the moment.

I can understand somewhat your point. I see that you are saying that our Muslim insistence that God cannot have a son any more than He can have a mother is putting limitations or restrictions on God's unlimited ability. I can't imagine looking upon the Glory of God in this life, even in a diluted human expression. In my limited capacity as a human I cannot conceive of God being born of a woman and needing to eat and drink and then relieving Himself of the waste. I just can't wrap my little ole mind around that one.


We Muslims do not try to define Allah beyond how He describes Himself in the Quran.

Quran 24:35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche, in which there is a lamp, the lamp is enclosed in crystal, the crystal is of a starlike brilliance, it is lit with the olive oil from a blessed olive tree which is neither eastern nor western, its very oil would almost be luminous though no fire touched it - as though all the means of increasing Light upon Light are provided - Allah guides to His Light whom He pleases. Allah cites such parables to make His message clear to the people; and Allah has knowledge of everything.

 

[Muslim Woman]

Salaam/ peace ;

Firstly, who said God was "equal" to His own creation?

ok , so who Created human being & angels ?

As for the rest, it is nothing more than an insult, not unlike if I said Muslims should simply invent another prophet.

Muhammed (p) is seal of the Prophets (pbut) .

I don't expect you to share my faith, but I had hoped we were both better than to resort to sarcastic insults.

ooopsss . sorry if i was sarcastic . ok , let's be serious .

Is it correct many Chrisitians do give much importance on Jesus (p) & as an athiest from Chrisitian background wrote : holy Spirit is in the back row.

 

[Redeemed]

I just fell out of my chair, we agreed on something.


It is true we both do agree on that. I also believe it is true that we both want what is best for each other. However, I do not see us agreeing on what is the true path.

I think you are going to need a seat belt, because we agree on that too.

 

[MuhammadRizan]

I reject Muhammad because I accept the Bible to be the true word of God.

I could'nt understand this, there are other prophet before Jesus with their own scripture for their own people. and what's wrong with Muhammad.

I'm sure you've read about Waraqah ibn Naufal and Salman Al Farisi, They're both Christian, And they confirmed Muhammad Prophethood with the Bible.

Thus either the Bible is corrupted (the Muslim view), or Muhammad got it wrong (my personal Christian view).

i'm sure u'r not gambling here, i thing there is a reason when muslim & christian debating on something, muslim will use Bible againts the christian.

btw we have all the time in ourlifetime to prove Muhammad is wrong.

We see Jesus as a sin bearer

well, this is outrageous, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad will never understand this.

When Muhammad tells me that Jesus didn't go to the cross, then Muhammad is telling me that I am still dead in my sins. If I have to chose to trust the words of Muhammad's condemnation or Jesus words of redemption, I'll choose Jesus.

There are other Way to be save from sin, merely forgiveness from God.

Am i right by saying Christian reject Islam because in Islam Allah clearly don't 'love' everybody. especially idolaters,hypocrite,sinners until they repent?

 

[Keltoi]

I can understand somewhat your point. I see that you are saying that our Muslim insistence that God cannot have a son any more than He can have a mother is putting limitations or restrictions on God's unlimited ability. I can't imagine looking upon the Glory of God in this life, even in a diluted human expression. In my limited capacity as a human I cannot conceive of God being born of a woman and needing to eat and drink and then relieving Himself of the waste. I just can't wrap my little ole mind around that one.


We Muslims do not try to define Allah beyond how He describes Himself in the Quran.

Quran 24:35 Allah is the Light of the heavens and the earth. The parable of His Light is as if there were a Niche, in which there is a lamp, the lamp is enclosed in crystal, the crystal is of a starlike brilliance, it is lit with the olive oil from a blessed olive tree which is neither eastern nor western, its very oil would almost be luminous though no fire touched it - as though all the means of increasing Light upon Light are provided - Allah guides to His Light whom He pleases. Allah cites such parables to make His message clear to the people; and Allah has knowledge of everything.

When you say "God cannot have a son or a mother" I agree with you, because that isn't what Christians refer to when they speak of the Father and Son, at least not in the physical sense that I believe you are referencing. To put it another way, Christ did not suddenly exist as an "offspring" of God.

John of Damascus wrote a fairly good description of this relationship...

Whatsoever the Son has from the Father, the Spirit also has, including His very being. And if the Father does not exist, then neither does the Son and the Spirit; and if the Father does not have something, then neither has the Son or the Spirit. Furthermore, because of the Father, that is, because the Father is, the Son and the Spirit are; and because of the Father, the Son and the Spirit have everything that they have.

That is a very tongue twisting description, but he goes to such lengths to fully describe the nature of The Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. So when Christians speak of a "Father and Son", they are not speaking of God producing offspring or God being produced from a womb. Jesus Christ did indeed have a mother, but it was his spiritual essence that was God, not the flesh of His body.

 

[Redeemed]

I could'nt understand this, there are other prophet before Jesus with their own scripture for their own people. and what's wrong with Muhammad.

I'm sure you've read about Waraqah ibn Naufal and Salman Al Farisi, They're both Christian, And they confirmed Muhammad Prophethood with the Bible.



i'm sure u'r not gambling here, i thing there is a reason when muslim & christian debating on something, muslim will use Bible againts the christian.

btw we have all the time in ourlifetime to prove Muhammad is wrong.


well, this is outrageous, Abraham, Moses, Muhammad will never understand this.



There are other Way to be save from sin, merely forgiveness from God.

Am i right by saying Christian reject Islam because in Islam Allah clearly don't 'love' everybody. especially idolaters,hypocrite,sinners until they repent?

Jn.3:16 For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten son that whosoever believeth in him should not perish but have everlasting life. It is your choice. You are free to make your own but not free from the consequence of that of that choice. IT IS SIMPLE GOD LOVED; GOD GAVE; YOU BELIEVE YOU RECEIVE. IT IS NOT ABOUT YOU OR US IT IS ABOUT HIM.