Who & what is Israel?

[Andaraawus]

According to my understanding of the Bible, Israel is not a land nor the promised land to the Jews but a person. Biblical tradition records that Prophet Jacob wrestled with an angel and was named Israel from that day on. The land promised to Abraham and his seed was called Canaan. Jacob was Abrahams grandson. The Quran rightfully calls the tribes of Jacob 'yaa bani Israaail' i.e. 'o children of Israel'. Now i could be wrong, but what i would like is for some Christian or Jew to show me where Israel is a state, a land.
Keep in mind i am not denying Israel, far from it. I acknowledge Israel, Prophet Jacob and i acknowldge that the children of Israel have the right to the land they live in right now. However alot of afgahnistanis and pakistanis also have right to Israel being from the tribe of Benjamen, son of Jacob. But yet they are denied to enter it and most passports from that region have stamped in it 'not allowed in Israel'. Why do the children of Israel deny entrance to the children of Israel? why is the 'faith of Jacob' now called Judaism after the tribe of Judah? Why the eclusiveness?

 

[therebbe]

According to my understanding of the Bible, Israel is not a land nor the promised land to the Jews but a person.

Actually the name "Israel" or "Yisrael" means comes from the root word Yisra and Al which means "to struggle with G-d.

The land promised to Abraham and his seed was called Canaan.

Untrue, his seed became the people of Israel. The people the "Canaanites" were idolators.

Now i could be wrong, but what i would like is for some Christian or Jew to show me where Israel is a state, a land.

It became a land when the Jews were promised it by G-d. When the Jews lived there peacefully thousands of years before Islam was created.

However alot of afgahnistanis and pakistanis also have right to Israel being from the tribe of Benjamen

Yet... DNA tests have been found to show that they have no relation to the 10 tribes. Actually, your statement if illogical, because Genetic research using Y-chromosome haploid analysis has proved there is no relation of Pakistani's to the Holy Land.

Why do the children of Israel deny entrance to the children of Israel?

Your theory is completly wrong. They are not the children of Israel. The true children of israel were defended by G-d against the Arab armies trying to destroy her in all the wars.

why is the 'faith of Jacob' now called Judaism after the tribe of Judah? Why the eclusiveness?

Showing your knowledge of absolutly nothing again are we?

The word for Judaism in Hebrew is "Yehudi":

the name Yehudi applies to anyone who rejects idolatry and follows/recongnizes that there is one true G-d and the laws he has given us are in the Torah (uncorrupted ).


The word "Hodaah," which is the root of the word Yehudi (and Yehudah), means to acknowledge.


So Judaism in Hebrew means to acknowledge one true G-d.

The name "Yehudi" or Jew was also used to describe a descendant from the Ancient Hebrews who became the Jews when the Torah was recieved at Mt. Sinai.


As far as the word for "yehudi" in English "Judaism" it was taken from Judah, but in reality that is not what the religions name signifies, but instead what some English translator probably called it.

Why the eclusiveness?

Because we are the exculsive people of the land.

Your post has shown your weak knowledge on the subject. if your thesis was a paper, I would probably give you an "F" for having no knowledge on the topic, and linking obsurd points together.

 

[جوري]

Our story begins about 5,000 years ago on a hill 55 miles inland from the eastern edge of the Mediterranean Sea. The Jebusites, a tribe of the Canaanites, have chosen it to be the site of new place of worship in honour of Shalem, the Canaanite God of Dusk.


The original name of this place of worship survives because it was inscribed on stone tablets found in Elba, Syria, c. 3000 BCE; on Egyptian statues, c. 2,500 BCE; and on shards of ceramic Egyptian Execration Texts dating to the XII Dynasty, c. 1900 BCE.


It reads: “Urushalem,” a Canaanite word comprising the prefix “Uru” (“founded by”) and “Shalem.”* We know this place today as Jerusalem—“Founded by Shalem,” a Canaanite God.


About 1,200 years later, according to legend, a man named Abraham left the Sumerian city of Ur, in what is now Occupied Iraq, and immigrated to Canaan.


A further 600-odd years later c.1184 BCE, a people called the Hebrews invaded Canaan, which the Greeks called Phoenicia. Even by Biblical accounts, which must be taken with several grains of salt, these Hebrews acted like marauding savages, as in this account of the sack of Jericho:


“They utterly destroyed all that was in the city, both man and woman, young and old, and ox, and sheep, and ass, with the edge of the sword.… And they burnt the city with fire, and all that was therein: only the silver, and the gold, and the vessels of brass and of iron, they put into the treasury of the house of the LORD.”†


Hebrew domination of Canaan began with the reign of three kings: Saul, r. 1112–1072 BCE; David, r. 1072–1032 BCE; and Solomon, r. 1032–992 BCE. This account is almost certainly folkloric, since the odds of three kings each ruling for exactly 40 years is statistically implausible, and 40 is a recurring apocryphal number.


David is credited with uniting the 12 tribes of Israel and establishing Urushalem as the political and religious capital of a United Israel after he brought the Ark of the Covenant with him from Hebron, David’s capital for seven years.


United Israel deteriorated toward the end of Solomon’s reign, and under his son Rehoboam it split into the Northern Kingdom of Israel and the Southern Kingdom of Judea. The Assyrians conquered Israel in 722 BCE, and the Babylonians conquered Judea in 597 BCE. Thus endeth the reign of the Hebrews.


This thumbnail sojourn into ancient history is meant to show three simple truths:


• Jerusalem was founded by Canaanites.


• Jerusalem as the “City of David” lasted all of 73 years, or 1.46 percent of the city’s entire history. If the 5,000 years of Jerusalem’s history were defined as one 24-hour day, the Hebrews would have had it for 21 minutes and 1.44 seconds.


• Even if we include the divided kingdom period, continuous proto-Jewish control over Jerusalem lasted only 516 years, a far cry from the 1,277 years it was under Muslim rule (637–1914 CE).


Sources:


* See, for example, Karen Armstrong, Jerusalem, One City, Three Faiths (New York: Alfred A. Knopf, 1996) pp. 6-7.


† Joshua 6:21, 24. KJV.
BTW if Israel is promised to the seed of Abraham then that means would go to Ishmael as he was his first born and the father of modern day Muslims... also Most Middle eastern Muslims today can trance their roots back to the original Hebrews through both Issac and Ishmael.... as many of those originals became Christian with christianity and Muslim with Islam....
Anyhow I am sick of people fighting over a piece of land really..... enough already!

 

[Andaraawus]

Shalom Therebbe,

Firstly I would like to thank you for entering this dialogue and expressing your views and I do wish to continue to dialogue with you in a fruitful manner.

I have based my thoughts on evidences from the Tanakh. Needless to say, there has been numerous and differing views in regards to the meaning of Israel “Yisra'el”. Some scholars opine that because Ya'akov (Jacob) fought with an Angel, he was then called “Yisra'el" meaning to "to struggle with G-d.” as you have stated. However other scholars of Hebrew opine that “Yisra'el” means “righteous with G-d,” “nations of G-d,” amongst other opinions to tedious to mention.

The etymology of “Yisra'el” has no logical bearing to the crux of my argument. Hence, whether “Yisra'el” means “to struggle with G-d” or “Righteous with G-d” is totally irrelevant to the issue at hand. My argument is that Israel is not a land, but a Biblical personality and also the linage of that personality.

According to the first book of the tanakh, chapter 35; verse 10, G-d renames Jacob as Isra'el:

“And G-d said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Isra'el.” (VaYishlach)
to hear the Hebrew click here

Then we have the account where Jacob wrestles an angel:

“…he said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with G-d and with men, and hast prevailed.”
-Tanakh - Genesis (VaYishlach )32:28 or 29To hear the Hebrew click here

It is important to mention here that this is the first time Israel is mentioned throughout the Jewish & Christian scripture. These evidences clearly show that Israel was non other than Prophet Jacob, so I simply was asking anybody who wishes to participate, where does it state in the totality of the book known as the Bible, that Israel is a land?

Instead of an answer my brother, you chose to speak on the etymology of the word “Yisrael”. I don’t know if you intended this, but in the circle of logic and reason this fallacy is known as a “red herring”. A distraction technique from the topic at hand.

Secondly, I stated that The land promised to Abraham and his seed was called Canaan. In answer to this you said “untrue”. Whereas the Bible clearly states that G-d made a promise to Abraham to give him Canaan:

“And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their G-d”. – Genesis 17:8 Click here to hear this verse in Hebrew

I don’t wish to belittle you on this point, we all make mistakes in regards to quoting and knowing our scripture. Many times I have been corrected about my mistakes. But you see from this verse G-d promised Abraham Canaan, G-d never said anything about the land being called Israel. However i am in agreement that the children of Israel have a divine right to the land of Canaan, but keeping in mind that it is not only Israel that are Abrahams seed.

Thirdly I claimed that many Pakaistanis and Afghanistanis are actually from the tribe of Benjameen, making them also the children of Israel. Documentation is required on my behalf and G-d willing, when I have complied the documentation, I will not hesitate to submit it here. However, I am interested in seeing your evidence on the DNA research.

Fourthly, I in so many words said that Judaism is an exclusive religion, which excludes the rest of the eleven tribes. You are correct in saying “The word for Judaism in Hebrew is "Yehudi”, and I am glad you bought that up. Judaism was infact named after Jacobs son Judah (Yahuda). The term Judaism was unheard of before Judah. The terms Juadism and Jews was first used by Jews to distinguish their relgion from Hellenism. G-d never called the true monotheistic faith of Abraham, Jacob or Moses Judaism.

Besides Moses was a Levite, he wasn’t from the tribe of Judah, so he can’t have been a Jew! Abraham and Jacob lived way before Judah, so they were unfamiliar with this term Jew. For this very reason G-d says in the Qur’an:

“Abraham was not a Jew or a Christian, but he was an upright Muslim (Haneefan Musliman i.e. in submission to god) and he did not join other gods with G-d.” – Qur’an 3:67.

The problem that Jews and Christians face with man made terminologies for the name of their religion is that they have to do a lot of explaining as to where that term came from. With Islam its different, even though the term was first used at the event of the final prophet to mankind, the meaning denotes submission to G-d and therefore can be applied to anybody who submitted wholeheartedly to G-d including the Biblical patriarchs such as Abraham, Moses e.t.c.

My Jewish brother, despite your adhominems against me, I wish for your guidance and wish to keep inviting you back to your true monotheistic faith of your forefathers. Feel free to dialogue with me, but try to be more constructive and respectful in the way you speak. There is only one true G-d and Muhammad is His final messenger.

Shalom & kind regards

 

[Muhammad]

Greetings,

It became a land when the Jews were promised it by G-d. When the Jews lived there peacefully thousands of years before Islam was created.

I assume you meant the advent of Muhammad (peace be upon him), since all the Prophets before him were upon the religion of Islam and hence it was not a message that was suddenly created but on the contrary, one that was revived.

 

[Andaraawus]

Muhammad has a point, the true faith of your forefathers has always been Islam in its meaning and definition, Islam simply means sumbission to G-d.
Brother have you ever properly looked at ISlam. Dont miss the last train my brother, Islam can complete your way of life, we can discuss further.

 

[Andaraawus]

Thanks for the information pure...

BTW if Israel is promised to the seed of Abraham then that means would go to Ishmael as he was his first born and the father of modern day Muslims... also Most Middle eastern Muslims today can trance their roots back to the original Hebrews through both Issac and Ishmael.... as many of those originals became Christian with christianity and Muslim with Islam....

We can also discuss who was Abarahams seed if you wish. wasalams

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

Now i could be wrong, but what i would like is for some Christian or Jew to show me where Israel is a state, a land.

Land distribution of the 12 tribes in accordance with the Torah, which might help to explain some of my confusion with the current state. I charge that the descendants of these 12 sons fought against each other, which rendered the covenant between them, with Hashem, null and void. 12 sons made this pact and their sons broke it via a civil war over who should be king (inserts swear word here).

http://www.bible.ca/maps/maps-joshua-saul.gif

While I would violently defend the land of Judea (that which was given to the sons of Benjamin and Judah who still exist today), I do not feel obligated to defend their occupation of Israelite land, that land belonging to the 10 tribes of Israel the Judeans fought against. I do not believe the soul of any true Israelite would knowingly bequeath his tribe's partition of land to a Judean, and many had cursed the land accordingly.

Since Israel, under it's covenant with Hashem, involved all 12 sons (and their descendants), and these sons were alloted separate lands accordingly, I contend that to create a new state called Israel (when it is clearly not all of Israel), is a blasphemy.

The division between Israel and Judea was made by the sons of Israel and Judea and, unless their can be a reconcilliation between them - which is impossible since the Israelites are not present to agree to one - the past cannot be undone no matter how guenuine the sentiment might be today. Sorry.

Ninth Scribe

 

[جوري]

Thanks for the information pure...



We can also discuss who was Abarahams seed if you wish. wasalams

We should ... we also should discuss that Abraham (PBUH) BOUGHT A LAND from the cannanites in which to bury Sarah upon her death ... mentioned in the Bible ... if the Land belonged to him why would he have a need to make a purchase? He was clearly making a point.... Either way history clearly states Jewish control over Jerusalem lasted only 516 years, a far cry from the 1,277 years it was under Muslim rule (637–1914 CE)..... but who is listening? They continue military aggression against the inhabitants both Christian and Muslims... I don't care who brain washes whom with genetic research... a very clear sign those Caucasian Jews are Ashkenazics who have converted to Judaism during the 7th century and have nothing to do with original Israelites more over if we were going to go by their research then we might as well ALL trace our roots to Africa.... Most Americans down three or four generations can trace their roots back to somewhere in Europe does that mean that a few million of them should go back invading simply because their ancestors belonged there? and they felt compelled to leave fleeing religious persecution? It makes no sense what so ever... For the time being only God is listening and watching........

 

[Ninth_Scribe]

more over if we were going to go by their research then we might as well ALL trace our roots to Africa....... For the time being only God is listening and watching........

Another brilliant mind that sees the need to resurrect the Book of Generations?

Ninth Scribe

 

[therebbe]

Since Israel, under it's covenant with Hashem, involved all 12 sons (and their descendants), and these sons were alloted separate lands accordingly, I contend that to create a new state called Israel (when it is clearly not all of Israel), is a blasphemy.

Did it? Please enlight me on this. Can you show me the DNA evidence of the where all the sons are? Let me ask you, if 11 sons die, and the 12th remains, does the 12 not get the property of the land they all lived on? Or should instead foreign invaders from Mecca get the land?

It reads: “Urushalem,” a Canaanite word comprising the prefix “Uru” (“founded by”) and “Shalem.”* We know this place today as Jerusalem—“Founded by Shalem,” a Canaanite God.

The origin of the name of the city is uncertain. It is possible to understand the name (Hebrew Yerushalayim) as either "Heritage of Salem" or "Heritage of Peace" – a contraction of "heritage" (yerusha) and either Salem (Shalem literally "whole" or "in harmony") or shalom ("peace").

Needless to say, there has been numerous and differing views in regards to the meaning of Israel

Your argument is illogical. If you knew hebrew then you could translate what "Yisra" and "El" were.

We should ... we also should discuss that Abraham (PBUH) BOUGHT A LAND from the cannanites in which to bury Sarah upon her death ... mentioned in the Bible ... if the Land belonged to him why would he have a need to make a purchase?

Actually the land he bought was outside the land that G-d gave to the Jewish People who follow his Torah, his true word to this day.

[

 

[جوري]

The above is from history books pages included ... if you are an illuminati on the subject than perhaps you can publish your own book with your own subjective views ... whatever it takes to ease your conscious of the illegality of the colonial settler state of Israel... I share my view with many even rabbis btw......
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE&mode=related&search

 

[therebbe]

I share my view with many even rabbis btw......

You call someone who picks and chooses which laws to obey a Rabbi? You call someone who breaks jewish law, halacha in many aspects a rabbi? You call a man who commits 'chillul hashem' and breaks jewish law every day a rabbi? You call a man who was proven by bank records to be recieving payments by Arafat a Rabbi?

Maybe I should call someone who eats pork an Imam then....

Or maybe you should learn a little about halacha before you decide to speak about Rabbi's.

But hey.... I guess I could claim to be a Imam right now, put on islamic garbs, and speak for the Muslim community right now if I wanted to... couldn't I?

 

[جوري]

I fail to see why you are so vehement? More over I can't for the life of me understand why you would judge another human being like that? I despise the colonial settler state of Israel, yet I have never been hateful toward you or judged you for your views though they are completely illogical to me as well and most who have some formal background in history? In fact everyone on this forum seems to welcome you. What an unusual trait to possess and call oneself a man of G-D and go on cursing even your own kin?...

I don't care who does what from the Muslim community only G-D knows whom his hosts are in this world it says so right in the Quran...كَذَلِكَ يُضِلُّ اللَّهُ مَن يَشَاء وَيَهْدِي مَن يَشَاء وَمَا يَعْلَمُ جُنُودَ رَبِّكَ إِلَّا هُوَ وَمَا هِيَ إِلَّا ذِكْرَى لِلْبَشَرِ {31}[Pickthal 74:31] None knoweth the hosts of thy Lord save Him. This is naught else than a Reminder unto mortals.

Lots of people do awful things in the name of Islam by the way and it gets plastered all over your newspapers as "Islam this and Islam that" with no chance for clarification from actual practicing Muslims....

speaking of Arafat... he married an xtian woman stolen the money of the palis and put her and his daughter in France... I don't know his intentions to me didn't seem to lie with the Palestenians so it seems a far stretch he would bribe a Rabbi... you are an educated man.... surely you know what sort of scandels people can plaster on others who don't share their views or political agendas.... I take politics and corporate media "info" with a grain of salt...

people can behave piously and be complete hypocrites... a recent example though I digress is congressman Foley who retired on pedophile charges yet was such an avid crusader against pedophiles and for children's rights..... Do you really know what is in the heart of another human being? I actually admire the courage of that man and those like him... for standing up for the truth as billions know it.

 

[Andaraawus]

Shalom,

Your argument is illogical. If you knew hebrew then you could translate what "Yisra" and "El" were.

Thats your "ra" to assume things! My arguement was not the tranlation and meaning of "Yisrael" - (yisra -present/future tense meaning "He prevails or will prevail" and 'El, a general term and also the proper divine name of G-d e.g. "El Shaddai").

The fact that you have not dealt with the issue at hand expresses your inability to show that Yisrael is a land. Therefore i conclude that the state of Israel does not have a divine right to exist, however the children of Israel do have a divine right to the small peice of land known as Canaan. The next question to any Jew or Christian that wishes to discuss is:

SHOULD THE ISRAELITES SHARE CANAAN WITH THE ISHMAELITES?

 

[Andaraawus]

Brother pure, no worries he speaks for a small minority of Jews, My grandparents are Jews and they agree that Israel should not exsist as it is.

See this link :http://youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE

Theres a Rabbi i respect!

 

[therebbe]

Brother pure, no worries he speaks for a small minority of Jews, My grandparents are Jews and they agree that Israel should not exsist as it is.

Theres a Rabbi i respect!

Please explain to me, how there actions do not break jewish law. Or maybe I can tell you since I live in communities with them, and they number about 1,000 and they follow a radical leader who preaches against the torah in some cases.

You respect the so called "Rabbi" because he politically aligns with you. Not because he follows any Jewish law. That is just pathetic. You should search peace loving Rabbi's not radicals that preach hate, and once a prophecy arrives they will be your worst enemy.

You call someone who picks and chooses which laws to obey a Rabbi? You call someone who breaks jewish law, halacha in many aspects a rabbi? You call a man who commits 'chillul hashem' and breaks jewish law every day a rabbi? You call a man who was proven by bank records to be recieving payments by Arafat a Rabbi?

Maybe I should call someone who eats pork an Imam then....

Or maybe you should learn a little about halacha before you decide to speak about Rabbi's.

But hey.... I guess I could claim to be a Imam right now, put on islamic garbs, and speak for the Muslim community right now if I wanted to... couldn't I?

 

[جوري]

Brother pure, no worries he speaks for a small minority of Jews, My grandparents are Jews and they agree that Israel should not exsist as it is.

See this link :http://youtube.com/watch?v=6RjnvQHWyLE

Theres a Rabbi i respect!

Thank you... I am not bothered ... each man is entitled to his opinion though it doesn't mean it is correct ... it just fosters beliefs upon which the very foundation of "Israel's" existence stands and everything that, that would entail henceforth....I don't get emotionally involved with a thread... at least not the way I used to......
p.s I am a sister;D ;D ;D

 

[Andaraawus]

Shalom,

You talk about preaching hatred? and at this very moment you are accusing him of 'chillul hashem' ... ?

How has he desecrated G-ds name? and how do you know?

Has he committed na'aph (az-zina) ? and how would you know?

Has he murdered somebody unlawfully? and how would you know?

do you know what you are saying??????

I suggest you go and research halacha before throwing it around!

According to Jewsih law one receives the death penalty for chillul hashem!

Basically, our Jewish brother here has done takfeer on another Jew. When the Yehuwd takfeer each other it also implies that person is worthy of the the death sentence, which in effect is practised, within Jewish controlled states.

This is one of the reasons i put the - instead of the 'o' in G-d, otherwise i could get accused of 'chillul hashem' i.e., desecration of G-ds name.
Mostly i do it out of respect not to agrivate my Jewish brother, however he is too shortsighted to see that.

My brother, you have repeated yourself, so will i, and please keep to the topic :

The fact that you have not dealt with the issue at hand expresses your inability to show that Yisrael is a land. Therefore i conclude that the state of Israel does not have a divine right to exist, however the children of Israel do have a divine right to the small peice of land known as Canaan. The next question to any Jew or Christian that wishes to discuss is:

SHOULD THE ISRAELITES SHARE CANAAN WITH THE ISHMAELITES?

 

[therebbe]

You talk about preaching hatred? and at this very moment you are accusing him of 'chillul hashem' ... ?

I live near people who belief in some of the radical so called 'rabbi's'. They desecrate G-d's name. Break halacha. I have seen them break Shabbos. They miss prayers, and break many ethical laws.

I don't expect you to know much about them though, unless of course you know them and there ideals and there actions and live in the center of a traditional jewish community of chassidim.