Why aren't the Nun's considered Opressed?

[Pygoscelis]

I posted this

As muslims, it may be too much to ask you folks to understand where the nudist mindset is coming from, just as it may be too much to ask some westerners to understand where the muslim mindset is coming from. And so miconceptions, tribalism, and even bigotry can develop even amongst well meaning people of both groups. But I don't think this has to be so.

An example of misconception is this

Does a person feel libertated when his private parts (which are in general ugly, could be dirty and smelly, just trying to provoke your imagination) are exposed for of everone?

As I said above, the cleanliness issue is objectively rational, but the rest of this is bias and misconception. Yes he does feel liberated when his "ugly" (your view) private parts are free. He does not see them as being exposed "for everyone" but liberated for himself. Many nudists also consider being forced to wear clothing, to appease what they see as the baseless shame of majority society (their view, not mine, though I can see where they are coming from), to be a bit oppressive.

And a good example of said bigotry is this

This is a classic example of desensitization, your senses are becoming dead. Same goes for a killer, the more he kills the more it seems natural to him.

Equating a nudist with a killer? Really? Do you think that is any less bigoted than equating muslims with terrorists?

In the real world could you imagine dealing with nudists on a day to day basis at your work, home, school and the immense problems that would cause, seriously

Im reminded of this saying from Mark Twain

Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence on society.

The way you feel about this is the same way many feel about people walking around in black robes covering their entire body and face. It is cultural norms at play in both cases, and both cause problems when planted in the opposite society. The parallel is striking, and as I see it the only real difference (other than in direction of the extremism) is that when taken too far one objectively poses a cleanliness issue and the other objectively poses a security issue.

because I start feeling disgusting of reading some comments here I didn't know that some people can go that far with nudity!!!!

It is no more extreme than the muslimas who dress in full body and face covering. Both are extreme and the reaction you are feeling is evoked by both. I think you and the nudist can overcome this and come to accept each other. As I said:

My post above was an expression of a desire to see people from such opposite ends of the spectrum, muslimas who cover their entire bodies and nudists who leave their entire body uncovered, actually bridge this gap. If they can do it then the rest of us have no excuse not to. Most of us fall somewhere in between these two extremes (muslimas who wear hajib only or who do not wear hajib but otherwise dress conservatievly, western women who wear business attire, or shorts and tshirts, or belly shirts, or bikinis). .

 

[Pygoscelis]

I kno im gonna sound biased when I say thıs but ın my eyes a Muslımah ın Hijab looks stronger then a nun- we are more fearless, we wıll not gıve u the other cheek to slap, ıf u mess wıt us u betta kno we wıll slap u back, otherwise we are humble.eace:

When I see nuns walkıng down the streets and a Muslımah, a Muslıma has the weıght of the world on her shoulder, shes beıng called oppressed, terrorıst, but stıll keeps her head high.

How many nuns do u see ın Universıty buıldıngs studyıng to become engıneers, doctors, Teachers? Something worth pondering over...

I would agree with you that the typical muslima shows more independence than the typical nun who wears a habit. I think this is mostly because habits have gone out of style and only the ultraconservative nuns wear them now, and the ultraconservative women in both religions tend to be the most oppressed.

 

[Asiyah3]

and the other objectively poses a security issue.

Peace,

How is a woman who covers her face a security issue? What does it matter if she shows her face or not? Isn't your argument a bit too far-fetched?

Do you find a man covering his face nose to neck with a scarf in winter a security threat? I don't.

Would you feel the same way if you grew up in a family where your mother and sisters wear a face-covering?

 

[GreyKode]

I posted this


Equating a nudist with a killer? Really? Do you think that is any less bigoted than equating muslims with terrorists?

You completely missed the point, why don't you ponder on what say before responding?, you didn't think and so you automatically contrasted this with the example of equating muslims with terrorists, although they are completely unrelated. Although nudists hurt society, my example wasn't meant to equate anybody with a killer, I was simply referring to the desensitization that happens when you do something frequently, your senses become numb, so in theory this applies to anything including killing, that is all I meant.

It is cultural norms at play in both cases, and both cause problems when planted in the opposite society.
It is no more extreme than the muslimas who dress in full body and face covering. Both are extreme and the reaction you are feeling is evoked by both. I think you and the nudist can overcome this and come to accept each other. As I said:

Great, except that France claims to be a liberal society, nudists ok and they do exist as well as in the UK, and so niqabis should be ok. So where is the problem now?

 

[جوري]

GreyKode;1371611] Does a person feel libertated when his private parts (which are in general ugly, could be dirty and smelly, just trying to provoke your imagination) are exposed for of everone?

It was deleted before I could see it, but do you people really think nudism is off topic here? This whole thread is about people covering their bodies, and being told they are oppressed for doing so. Well that is only one side of the coin....

That is the original comment..
I can't compare apples and oranges... I really don't think there is anything 'natural' about regressing to an animal like state.. if we desire to be labeled human, then we must accept the human condition, the human condition isn't found licking oneself in public, nor displaying oneself in public, or dropping ones load on the street, or hunting for food in that traditional animal sense, or copulating on the streets although I understand that, it happens, I can draw no polarity to being covered up or covered up incompletely.. (nudism) simply doesn't exist on that spectrum on the other end, because I don't consider something that humans would do.. I consider it something animals would do and be ok with.. from the minute we are born we are wrapped in blankets and wear beanie caps to retain our body heat, so the state of nakedness would in fact be a danger to a newborn if you consider it 'natural' since even the 'brown fat' we are born with can't protect us against the element save for a number of hours if at all.. Naked isn't a 'natural state' it is an animal state.. and if I desire a life amongst humans then there is no room for that, and no room for that to be made an object of comparison for any sort of a point..

all the best

 

[S.Belle]

It was deleted before I could see it, but do you people really think nudism is off topic here? This whole thread is about people covering their bodies, and being told they are oppressed for doing so. Well that is only one side of the coin....

Ok i could see what you mean a nudist may think that their rights are not being met when society tells them that they must not be nude in public and they themselves may feel oppressed or looked at as opressed but rape crimes would soar and i dont think children should see all that nudity.....all kinds of rules would be broken and the world would just be a big jungle full of naked animals (including humans we would just go loco lol)

 

[tango92]

from what i know (and dont ask how) most nudists are fat old men and women who have lost all libido. i think a nudist lifestyle is a pointer towards deeper psychological issues. especially considering how dull ones life must be at 60+. although thats just my opinion

 

[Grace Seeker]

Peace,

How is a woman who covers her face a security issue? What does it matter if she shows her face or not? Isn't your argument a bit too far-fetched?

Do you find a man covering his face nose to neck with a scarf in winter a security threat? I don't.

Actually, if a man walked into a bank, even in the middle of winter, dressed as you described he would indeed be considered a security threat.

 

[Grace Seeker]

So is he saying that women with short hair (perhaps?!) must cover their heads when they go to church or pray to GOD, and women with long hair (perhaps?!) don't have to cover their hair ?

No.

If this is so, then what the hell is the purpose of this nonsense??!!


So WHAT IS THIS RETARD SAYING HERE?! He is not making any sense what so ever!!

Some of Paul's writing can be confusing, but that doesn't necessarily make it nonsense. Do you really care to know, or are content with having called Paul a retard?

 

[جوري]

or are content with having called Paul a retard?

Not so much a retard as he was a calculating charlatan!
whatever his teachings were, the shorn and/or covered women seem to be confined to convents!

all the best

 

[Asiyah3]

Actually, if a man walked into a bank, even in the middle of winter, dressed as you described he would indeed be considered a security threat.

In banks or government buildings etc. a female employer can check the situation for security reasons.

Any other reasons for "security issue"?

 

[Pygoscelis]

Great, except that France claims to be a liberal society, nudists ok and they do exist as well as in the UK, and so niqabis should be ok. So where is the problem now?

It may surprise you to hear it, but I agree with you 100% about the french ban being wrong. Primarily because it singles out muslims due to their religion/culture. I can however see legitimate security concerns about having people walk around obscuring their faces and and bodies. A muslima should not expect, for example, to walk into an airport or a bank in full garb with only an eye slit and expect not to be thought of as a risk. And a muslima should not get away with not having her face on her driver's license photo or get away with not showing it when showing ID is appropriate.

Sure, you can have a female worker check the identity of the woman, but who is to pay for that? Why should the bank, or whoever else bare that expense and bother? And even if they do the risk remains in that such an inspection could not always be carried out quickly. I strongly support a muslima's right to wear a veil anywhere I can wear a ski mask, but she should have no special rights beyond mine just because of her religion.

Certainly the security risk issue is not going to apply all the time or to more moderate muslimas who just wear hair coverings etc, but the same can be said for nudists and the sanitary issue, which isn't going to apply all the time or to nudists who are clean or who wear minimal clothing.

 

[سيف الله]

Salaam

Again you skip over the immense problems nudists would cause at society at large, for example sexual harrassment? Again I come back to Mark Twains qoute. In fact nudists can be a source of immense uncessary expense as is demonstrated by the case of the 'naked rambler'

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stephen_Gough

Sure, you can have a female worker check the identity of the woman, but who is to pay for that? Why should the bank, or whoever else bare that expense and bother? And even if they do the risk remains in that such an inspection could not always be carried out quickly. I strongly support a muslima's right to wear a veil anywhere I can wear a ski mask, but she should have no special rights beyond mine just because of her religion.

Please, the security issue is a non issue, plenty of middle east deal with this day in and day out, and on the question of 'expenses' I dont mind contributing to it if it leads to a harmonious society.

Im glad to say that society at large seems to have a more tolerant attitude than yourself for accomodating other peoples religious beliefs, but then thats hardly surprising, you are an atheist after all.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Junon, I really don't have anything to say to your post above. It runs in a complete circle on itself. Read it and then watch it loop around and read it again. You speak bigotry and then complain about same.

 

[Ramadhan]

For atheists (well atheists on this board at least), I get the sense that everyone is free to do ANYTHING they want to do as long as it does not physically harm other person.
So, they have no problem with nudity in public, which, at the first glance, is not physically harmful.
The sociological, psychological and communal grave effects etc are not even considered.

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

I would agree with you that the typical muslima shows more independence than the typical nun who wears a habit. I think this is mostly because habits have gone out of style and only the ultraconservative nuns wear them now, and the ultraconservative women in both religions tend to be the most oppressed.

says the atheist.

 

[جوري]

I believe the women who wear burka are the most liberated and strong willed, not only do they have to fight with their family and friends who wonder why they have chosen that lifestyle when they can get away with the bear minimum, but they also have to go against a world which is very unforgiving and relentless of them.. sob7an Allah

 

[aamirsaab]

You can't really judge if someone is oppressed based purely on their dress sense/uniform.

Similarly, a uniform does not denote oppression neccessarily.

The man is not trying to keep playas down if he asks you to wear a suit.

p.s; people, usually female, wear veils at weddings and funerals --> does not equate to oppression
p. p.s: Most asian ladies (i.e hindu, sikh, muslim) wear some kind of hijab-esque style haid dress --> also not oppresion.

 

[Ansariyah]

I would agree with you that the typical muslima shows more independence than the typical nun who wears a habit. I think this is mostly because habits have gone out of style and only the ultraconservative nuns wear them now, and the ultraconservative women in both religions tend to be the most oppressed.

You say that ultraconservative women are the most oppressed, but if they chose to be ultraconservative, then it means they are exercising the freedom to reject your secular culture and live the way they want to be. Many ultraconservative women are highly educated, but just because we choose not to put ourselves on display doesn't mean we are oppressed, it means we are confident enough to live the way we choose to live and practice our beliefs, which is Islam.

 

[B_M]

I kno im gonna sound biased when I say thıs but ın my eyes a Muslımah ın Hijab looks stronger then a nun- we are more fearless, we wıll not gıve u the other cheek to slap, ıf u mess wıt us u betta kno we wıll slap u back, otherwise we are humble.eace:

When I see nuns walkıng down the streets and a Muslımah, a Muslıma has the weıght of the world on her shoulder, shes beıng called oppressed, terrorıst, but stıll keeps her head high.

How many nuns do u see ın Universıty buıldıngs studyıng to become engıneers, doctors, Teachers? Something worth pondering over...

That's true. I agree with that.

But I can see it like this too.. Both look stronger within their own religions. A Nun looks the most obedient out of all Christianity.. to take a vow of poverty, celibacy and charity... especially in a Western World that thrives on sex, greed and selfishness.. maybe, yeah times have changed and it's not really the same as it used to be, how Nuns had to teach in the Catholic Schools, and in that same building is where they called home, living in tiny covenants, in a smaller section of the building, not being able to marry, all the charitable work, etc.

However being a Muslimah in this day and age, clearly, as you said, are looked upon as 'terrorısts' and 'oppressed' beacuse of the false assumptions people have. Which is really not fair.

And it is kinda shameful that Nuns wearing head coverings are seen as more modest and are respected more opposed to Muslimahs because of some misunderstanding, when both should be recognized for the same modesty. And its funny that certain Christians/people feel the way the do about head coverings when the Bible says the same thing. Just like 'not eating pork' is stereotyped into a Islamic tradition, again, when the Bible says the same thing.

I don't know, lol. Crazy misunderstood world?