Why aren't the Nun's considered Opressed?

[Grace Seeker]

It may surprise you to hear it, but I agree with you 100% about the french ban being wrong. Primarily because it singles out muslims due to their religion/culture. I can however see legitimate security concerns about having people walk around obscuring their faces and and bodies. A muslima should not expect, for example, to walk into an airport or a bank in full garb with only an eye slit and expect not to be thought of as a risk. And a muslima should not get away with not having her face on her driver's license photo or get away with not showing it when showing ID is appropriate.

In banks or government buildings etc. a female employer can check the situation for security reasons. Any other reasons for "security issue"?

What people need to understand is that the wearing of the veil does not present a security risk that is any greater than not wearing one. Simply being present is a security risk, and it has nothing to do with religion or politics, it is simply that each individual who walks into a building is at some level a security risk. The question that must be asked by the manager/operator is whether or not he is willing to assume that risk. And most often, in hopes of profit and recognizing the need to interact with the public they take that risk. But even as they take that risk, they also try to limit their risk exposure, and one of the ways they do that is by making it so that those who might do something find either impediments to doing so or that their own risk in doing something that would have a negative impact on the business is great enough that it isn't worth them doing anything. Security cameras, for instance, are a part of that protection, not because they can actually stop a crime, but because they increase the likelihood of the criminal getting caught and thus serve as a deterant. Wearing a hijab that simply covers the hair but not the face is unlikely to be seen as any greater of a security risk than a hat. But wearing a veil that completely obscures the face changes the viability of the most frequently employed means of deterrance. Without that deterence in effect, the comfort level of a business owner to someone walking in to his/her business whose face cannot be seen is going to be replaced by a heightened sense of anxiety. It has nothing to do with religion, it has everything to do with no knowing who is "hiding" behind the veil and what their intentions might be.

 

[Pygoscelis]

Yes, and as I said, she can wear a burka when and where I can wear a ski mask. I am not allowed to walk into a bank wearing a ski mask. There is a legitimate security issue.

 

[Muhaba]

I believe the women who wear burka are the most liberated and strong willed, not only do they have to fight with their family and friends who wonder why they have chosen that lifestyle when they can get away with the bear minimum, but they also have to go against a world which is very unforgiving and relentless of them.. sob7an Allah

I agree. The fact is that Muslim women who wear hijab today are oppressed by society which tries to take away the freedom to wear the hijab / niqab. For hijabis it's so difficult finding work wearing the hijab / niqab. In france women aren't allowed to wear niqab. In Turkey and some other countries women can't cover their heads in schools. That's terrible oppression. Hijabi / Niqabi women must really work hard to stop all this oppression.

 

[Kashnowe]

i wanted to chime in with responding to a few quotes from previous posters
"Islam is the religion that prevents rape; it upholds the dignity and honor of women by commanding them to cover themselves. Women in Islam are not oppressed, but only the Christian women are oppressing themselves by dressing half-naked. "
Islam does not prevent rape any mroe than any other religion of peace. Covering a body does not cover up the fact that their is a naked human under the clothes. a man is still required to control himself. if he can not control his lusts that is HIS problem not the woman's. FREE WILL people!!!

"It's the natural law:
things are cheap when it's easy to have them or they are available in great numbers, things have no value when they are available for free "

so if i walk into a store and see gold jewlery on display, and no one is looking, i am free to take it? if you see a scantily clad woman that does not mean she is asking to be taken or that she deserves to be raped. who says because a woman is wearing a mini skirt that she is free? is she not s till a child of Allah? does the Quran not say Allah is merciful? its a shame you think this way.

"How many nuns do u see ın Universıty buıldıngs studyıng to become engıneers, doctors, Teachers? Something worth pondering over.."

well you see nuns study to become nuns because they dont want to be an engineer or doctor. thats the whole point. so what is your point?

if someone tells me "wear a burka or i will kill you" and i choose to wear the burka, that doesn't exactly mean i freely chose to wear it free from opression.
yes i chose to wear it. i could have chosen not to wear it. but then i would be dead. this is the concept non-muslims are concerned about. do you really think a woman in the burka will say " oh yes i chose to wear this because my husband said if i didn't he would kill me, isn't it loveley i was given a choice? " no. they leave that part out....

if you think a woman chooses to dress that way you are fooling yourself.

 

[Grace Seeker]

if you think a woman chooses to dress that way you are fooling yourself.

Your solid points about there being no excuse for rape regardless of how a woman dresses not withstanding, the reality is that in fact there are women who have no one telling them how to dress except for their own conscious who chose, as an act of their own free will and devotion, to wear a hijab, a niqab or a burka. One can hardly call those women oppressed.

And there are women who would like to wear them that are sometimes told by others that they cannot.

Therefore, it seems to me that you cannot tell whether or not a woman is oppressed by observing how she is dressed, one way or the other.

 

[S.Belle]

i wanted to chime in with responding to a few quotes from previous posters
"Islam is the religion that prevents rape; it upholds the dignity and honor of women by commanding them to cover themselves. Women in Islam are not oppressed, but only the Christian women are oppressing themselves by dressing half-naked. "
Islam does not prevent rape any mroe than any other religion of peace. Covering a body does not cover up the fact that their is a naked human under the clothes. a man is still required to control himself. if he can not control his lusts that is HIS problem not the woman's. FREE WILL people!!!

True but it seems like it would but easier for a man ( muslim and non muslim) to control himself if what he lusts for or maybe doesnt know he likes until he sees it is not shown in front of him so openly (like some men are attracted to certain parts of a woman body that the hijab covers). For example a person who is on a diet, it is easier for them not to eat sweets or fats if they do not go into a bakery or a fast food place but put them in that in that situation then they are most likely going to order something fatty (that is unless they have enough self control but some people do not hence rape crimes)
Also did you know that rape crimes are lower in muslim countries?

is she not s till a child of Allah?

Allah does not begot nor is he begotten

if someone tells me "wear a burka or i will kill you" and i choose to wear the burka, that doesn't exactly mean i freely chose to wear it free from opression.
yes i chose to wear it. i could have chosen not to wear it. but then i would be dead. this is the concept non-muslims are concerned about. do you really think a woman in the burka will say " oh yes i chose to wear this because my husband said if i didn't he would kill me, isn't it loveley i was given a choice? " no. they leave that part out....

if you think a woman chooses to dress that way you are fooling yourself.

First off it is not a man (being a husband or father) who has commanded that women should cover their bodies but rather God. If a man was to even say cover yourself it is because he is reminding his wife what Allah (swt) has told women that they must cover.

 

[Asiyah3]

if you think a woman chooses to dress that way you are fooling yourself.

Who on Earth are you to decide what I can dress and what not, and call my husband a killer? Understand that I am free to dress as I wish. If you wish to dress half-naked, be my guest, but you have absolutely no right to impose it on me!

You know absolutely nothing about Islam and Muslim women.

 

[Danah]

Who on Earth are you to come here and decide what I can dress and what not, and call my husband a killer? Understand that I am free to dress as I wish. If you wish to dress half-naked, be my guest, but you have absolutely no right to impose it on me!

You know absolutely nothing about Islam and Muslim women.

Can't agree more!!!
seriously, I don't know how some people give themselves the right to decide on the place of others :hmm:

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

Peace Kashnowe

i wanted to chime in with responding to a few quotes from previous posters
"Islam is the religion that prevents rape; it upholds the dignity and honor of women by commanding them to cover themselves. Women in Islam are not oppressed, but only the Christian women are oppressing themselves by dressing half-naked. "
Islam does not prevent rape any mroe than any other religion of peace. Covering a body does not cover up the fact that their is a naked human under the clothes. a man is still required to control himself. if he can not control his lusts that is HIS problem not the woman's. FREE WILL people!!!.

The individual you quoted indeed is correct! Islam prevents all those acts that are taken place that you mentioned but the desires of one is what that doesnt prevent one unless they control them, So you got it the wrong way round. If a man is required to control himself then a women in the same way is required to dress appropriately.

"It's the natural law:
things are cheap when it's easy to have them or they are available in great numbers, things have no value when they are available for free "

so if i walk into a store and see gold jewlery on display, and no one is looking, i am free to take it? if you see a scantily clad woman that does not mean she is asking to be taken or that she deserves to be raped. who says because a woman is wearing a mini skirt that she is free? is she not s till a child of Allah? does the Quran not say Allah is merciful? its a shame you think this way.

No firstly that would be called "Stealing"! lol you mentioned "Scantily clad women" clearly that proves no respect for that typa women itself, how can you say shes not asking to be taken, you dont even know her intentions. However, she could prevent further action from being taken if she dressed appropriately and as Grace Seeker mentioned i quote him "

the reality is that in fact there are women who have no one telling them how to dress"

"How many nuns do u see ın Universıty buıldıngs studyıng to become engıneers, doctors, Teachers? Something worth pondering over..".

well you see nuns study to become nuns because they dont want to be an engineer or doctor. thats the whole point. so what is your point?

if someone tells me "wear a burka or i will kill you" and i choose to wear the burka, that doesn't exactly mean i freely chose to wear it free from opression. .....

yes i chose to wear it. i could have chosen not to wear it. but then i would be dead. this is the concept non-muslims are concerned about. do you really think a woman in the burka will say " oh yes i chose to wear this because my husband said if i didn't he would kill me, isn't it loveley i was given a choice? " no. they leave that part out.....

if you think a woman chooses to dress that way you are fooling yourself.[/QUOTE]

Seriously?!?!?!
I wear the Hijaab and i dont wear it because im forced to wear it, in fact nobody told me to wear it and it was my own decision!

I think you should stop judging people!

Peace

 

[Kashnowe]

my understanding is the non_Muslim view is more concerning the oppression and lesser value placed on the whole truth of "being female" due to laws expressly written in the Quran concerning females. and the inconsistencies between behavior and attitudes which stand as the status quo right now today yesterday and tomorrow. which relates to attitudes of a woman is impure if scantily clad. if you imply that if two people fornicate out of wedlock, the woman shall be stoned to death and the man gets to live then thats where everyone else in the world gets upset. its the big picture attached to obvious differences in opinion.

to me each side has valid points and that is my life's biggest challenge along with understanding astronomy also: the chicken or the egg? israel or palestine? Jesus or Mohammed?

americans who became a nation based highly on the feeling of a NEED for freedom of religion to truly live in PEACE. because obviously the way they were living just WASN'T WORKING FOR THEM. they were BEING KILLED. with that freedom then, and only then can you grant rights to ALL which is EQUAL and FAIR. which is very opposite of a Muslim following the Muslim law which says you don't have the freedom to CHOOSE. thats the opression. unless you are Muslim of course.



the sad truth is people of every faith dont' always follow the law and the way these people are judged is NEVER equal if you are Muslim. true intention of character and faith does not always rule the physical actions of the body. people make mistakes. the way the western world reacts to Muslim laws shows me that they don't think every Muslim is evil and does all these things like threaten to kill their wife if she (insert sin here). they do get angry when the majority either condones or does nothing to stop the violence and cruelty. becase the defense is based on religion. not democratic voting of opinion and common interest. its forced upon the society. in saudi arabia you will be killed for many things that we consider basic human rights. this does not come anywhere close to freedom or fairness or justice or reason to us. thats the whole problem in the world today two completely opposite opinions festering and rotting at the same pace. because this is a loosing battle as long as any society is around that murders its members. neither side is winning anything neither side is right. people are being killed for showing their face. that does not go along with any law of nature present anywhere else in the universe except for a black hole.





runaway i never said anything about your husband. i wold hope if you made the mistake of wearing a mini shkirt and going to a night club your husband would see the falibility in you as you are human and no one is perfect except for God. i would hope he would welcome you back home with open arms and work with you til death to rehbilitate your mind and your spirit to once again be pure in faith and actions. and if you fell again i would pray he would be there to lift you up and dress your wounds once more. i also wish the society you live in would encourage him to do so and not impose unjust laws.



i can not decide how you dress and i would never wish to decide how anyone dresses. i was merely stating my opinion. i never said you must accept or agree with it. i wish you to be free as i am free. if you are free to dress as you can i am happy for you. many are not able to do so claiming a religion with no choice and no freedom to question it.



many women in america are controlled by their husband, they are threatened, beaten, killed by their controlling husbands. this is an anciet global phenomenon. but in america the majority does not agree condone or promote such evils.



the difference between here and saudi arabia is the government doesn't value the man's opinion or life over the woman's.



the biggest and oldest feud in the world is between men and women.



who am i? im a person. i'm an individual. i control my own thoughts. i control my own actions. i have my own opinions. i form my own opinions from what i gather from my five senses. to each his own.

 

[Kashnowe]

the reason rape is lower in muslims countries is probably because it is not nearly reported as much because of fear of being killed for being alone with a man. obviously the woman knows her side of the story will not matter.

everyone judges everyone. if by judge you mean analyze and form an opinion and consesnus about something. its the nature of existence to judge everythign and everyone one. the mere act of thinking is judging. if people did not judge the word "opinion" would not exist. there would be no such thing as right or wrong. there would be nothing.

if you lived in saudi arabia the government could judge you. they would judge you and maybe kill you...all in the name of God. you must be one of the lucky ones. the lucky ones are not the ones the west is concerned with. its the opressed, impoverished, brainwashed people that we feel a need to protect as we would our own.

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

^Yes indeed you are person and you have your own opinions, but it doesnt mean that our "opinions" have the answer to everything.

God is our creator and he created us with a brain so that we may use it the correct way,however some may use it the opposite way, but as we are not all perfect and yes God is perfect!

But we cant all go saying "Im a sinner and were not all perfect" all our lives can we? We must change that and try to better ourselves.

God according to Islaam commands us to do of what is better for ourselves and forbids us to do what is not better for ourselves and weather an action that does not benefit one, why should it be taken place? For example as you mentioned its free will we do whatever want, dress however we will or along those lines and forgive me ive said anything wrong.

But lets say God Allmighty wills us to dress the way he wills and indeed that is a way that is better for us, would you not consider following that?
If he told us to speak in a certain manner that is better for us, for example to be kind, to not swear, help those in need, would you also not consider following that?

Btw this is Islaam the religion that gives us choice and not one that oppresses us.

Peace

 

['Abd-al Latif]

the reason rape is lower in muslims countries is probably because it is not nearly reported as much because of fear of being killed for being alone with a man. obviously the woman knows her side of the story will not matter.

Oh yeah, and you know this because you're a Muslim who lives in a Muslim country, right?

 

[Ğħαrєєвαħ]

the reason rape is lower in muslims countries is probably because it is not nearly reported as much because of fear of being killed for being alone with a man. obviously the woman knows her side of the story will not matter.

everyone judges everyone. if by judge you mean analyze and form an opinion and consesnus about something. its the nature of existence to judge everythign and everyone one. the mere act of thinking is judging. if people did not judge the word "opinion" would not exist. there would be no such thing as right or wrong. there would be nothing.

Are you saying its fine for a strange women and strange man to be alone? thats what your saying, according to Islaam this is an act of sin, therefore there will be punishments. And obviously your basing that whole matter with Islaam. Just because its an Muslim country doesnt mean that that Islaam is being fully implemented and doesnt give you yourself the right to say something about Islaam.

Yeah everyone has the "ability" to judge, but what if that judgement isnt correct? then what do you say regarding that?

 

[Kashnowe]

Yeah everyone has the "ability" to judge, but what if that judgement isnt correct? then what do you say regarding that?

i make inconrrect judgements every day. i'm not dishing out punishments tho.

 

[Grace Seeker]

seriously, I don't know how some people give themselves the right to decide on the place of others :hmm:

Ironically, that is one of the definitions for oppression.

But Kashonwe does make a point when she writes:

the sad truth is people of every faith dont' always follow the law and the way these people are judged is NEVER equal if you are Muslim. true intention of character and faith does not always rule the physical actions of the body. people make mistakes.

If women are stoned and men are free to walk away when BOTH have been guilty of the same offense of adultery, it seems that not only is their inequality, but that Muslim women can end up on the short end of a very deadly stick.

(Note: I recognize that this is not something found in Islam alone. It was in fact the pattern established in the OT. However, I am unaware of it continuing to be practiced by either Jew or Christian today. And if you tell me that it also is not being practiced in the name of Islam today, I will withdraw my objection.)

 

[Asiyah3]

Ironically, that is one of the definitions for oppression.

Interesting..

But Kashonwe does make a point when she writes: If women are stoned and men are free to walk away when BOTH have been guilty of the same offense of adultery, it seems that not only is their inequality, but that Muslim women can end up on the short end of a very deadly stick.

Seeing the time you've spend on the forum, you should know very well that the hadd punishment for adultery applies equally to men and women.

 

[Woodrow]

the reason rape is lower in muslims countries is probably because it is not nearly reported as much because of fear of being killed for being alone with a man. obviously the woman knows her side of the story will not matter.

everyone judges everyone. if by judge you mean analyze and form an opinion and consesnus about something. its the nature of existence to judge everythign and everyone one. the mere act of thinking is judging. if people did not judge the word "opinion" would not exist. there would be no such thing as right or wrong. there would be nothing.

if you lived in saudi arabia the government could judge you. they would judge you and maybe kill you...all in the name of God. you must be one of the lucky ones. the lucky ones are not the ones the west is concerned with. its the opressed, impoverished, brainwashed people that we feel a need to protect as we would our own.

To put things in perspective less than 15% of the world's Muslims live in the Mideast. Saudi is not an Islamic Nation, it is a Monarchy. More Muslims live in the Western countries than in all the Mid-eastern Nations combined. Nearly 1/4 of the world's Muslims live in Indonesia. It should be apparent that this generalization does not apply to the majority of the World's Muslims, in fact it does not apply to the majority of Muslims living in the Mid-East. Add to this there are no nations in existence today that are Islamic and live under true Sharia law. what is called shariah law is too often the whims of misguided rulers.

Even so, the majority of Muslim women in Saudi are not abused as the press would like you to believe. For the most part Saudi resembles New York more than it resembles an Islamic Nation. Many of the blatant sins now found in parts of Saudi are because of the westernization.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Interesting..


Seeing the time you've spend on the forum, you should know very well that the hadd punishment for adultery applies equally to men and women.

No. I had not even heard the term "hadd" punishment. (This is an area that I know little about. So, I'm assuming that "hadd" is a real term, and not a typo. Forgive me if I'm wrong on that. I don't write in jest.)

 

[Grace Seeker]

Many of the blatant sins now found in parts of Saudi are because of the westernization.

Woodrow, would you really have us believe that without western influence the people of Saudi would live in righteousness? Was there no rape, murder, stealing, adultery, prostitution prior to contact with the west?

Might it not be that with increased wealth came increased contact with the world beyond what was previously known (including contact with the west) and this exposure produce new ways that the same old sins could be practiced.