Why aren't the Nun's considered Opressed?

[Ezekiel_B]

So why don't you point out to them, that the terrorists aboard flights AA 11 & 175 were clean shaven?

 

[Ummu Sufyaan]

^i dont get it.

 

[Ramadhan]

I submit that such views, if held by society at large, would be a form of oppression.

Wow... did you have to go search for some obscure jordanian parliamentarian to support your view that Islam oppress women?

really?

Do you want to play this game?

Would you like me to unearth tons of unbeliavable comments from US congress members that I can easily attribute to christianity because the said members are christians?

And I thought PASTORS have better things to do?

Or is this really befitting of a pastor and actually a better example of them?

 

[Ramadhan]

nd what is my supposed lie? Asking this question:
Quote Originally Posted by Grace Seeker View Post
Then why is it that there is such a discrepancy in actual practice?
And don't tell me that it is a lie. I'm asking why Islam teaches one thing and yet we see another thing practiced. Woodrow even confessed that we do see other things practiced:

Does christianity teach how to sexually abuse little children?

 

[Ramadhan]

And how often does that occur?

Ever wonder why... when I wear a long, black leather trenchcoat and I am just exercising my taste in fashion, I am a satanist and possibly a potential 'Columbine-style' shot-gun killer...?

I have myself been on the receiving end of such irrational association by christians, and muslims alike...

Looking at the above paragraph it appears muslims and christians are both as guilty of prejudice as any person of the mixed west who has not sat down to study the issues or considered the statistical evidence of just how many people with long beards are plotting to plant bombs and how many people in leather trench coats actually want to kill them with a shotgun or sodomize their children, in the name of Satan.

If you live in the west you must be prepared to sometimes encounter those of lesser education and social understanding. Nowhere on earth is perfect, though I sometimes wish it could be different. What you are experiencing is the result of mixing people from differing cultures and appearances together, in one place.

Sometimes, all we can do is weigh the disadvantages of living in a free and mixed society, with it's benefits; perhaps, in the same way as we would weigh the beauty & solitude of the desert with it's scarcity of fresh water.

How often do you and I hear the prejudicial cries of false accusation, brought on by our appearance? Is it every day? Every week? Once a month? Or does it vary enough to suggest there will always be a minority of ill-educated souls who find it hard to seperate tabloid rhetoric from actual truth and statistical evidence?

It is interesting, is it not, to discover that belief, without evidence.... is everywhere.

It is interesting to note that you commited the exact crime you accuse others of doing (prejudice etc) when you, based on your ignorance, arrogance said things about hijab-wearing women without evidence, and which by the way, I have disproved in my previous post but yet you conveniently did not dare to touch.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

On the other hand, muslim women are subject to arranged marriages and become what the average western observer might percieve of as being in some way 'the property' of the man, within that marriage.

I was born a muslim, i have very large extended family (my father has a total of 11 siblings and mother 8) in the LARGEST muslim country in the world, and I have never heard a muslimah whom I know personally who have been subjected to arranged marriages.
I am surprised that you know something about islam and muslims that I do not know of, or maybe it is all in your imagination?
Maybe you should check with your local psychiatrist?

Why do you assume my local psychiatrist knows anything about muslim culture?

I'm sorry, but we hear all the time about arranged marriages in Islamic culture. Just by reading my posts, you should be able to detect that I can only bring to the table what I have heard and been told. You should be able to see this, by the way I say "it appears" and "it is perceived". If I am incorrect, then inform me of my error. You're doing very well, then you go and say something completely stupid, suggesting I need to consult a mental health professional. Psychiatrists aren't employed to inform us on cultural matters, are they?!

If you want to debate with me then you need to represent your brothers and sisters by showing intelligence and integrity. Don't assume that everyone of what you consider to be an 'opposing' culture is automatically charmed by it. We have many complaints about western pop culture, our government's policies and our education system.

If it's true that arranged marriages form no part of Islamic culture at all, then I would be delighted to hear it. I only have the internet, media and word of mouth, as it seems you do, concerning knowledge of our western culture - which, unfortunately, this board will not allow me to share right now (???). It's not just the initial arrangement which concerns me but some of the duties which participants are called upon for in marriage and it's not only muslim attitudes to marriage and courtship I'm talking about - I see similar things in christianity. So perhaps you could put me right on that?

To the observer of Islam, it would also appear that the 'choice' has already been made for the girl, whilst somehow forging a masquerade of choice in the matter. The point being that when children are brought up strictly within the confines of Islamic culture, knowing very little outside of that, the question would be: what other other choices are they presented with? So when a muslim woman says she wears the all-encompassing black robes by choice... one is forced to wonder what alternatives are available to her.

You know what, in this so called "modern" world, even in the largest muslim country in the world, peple are bombardised by images through magazines, televisions, popular cultures etc whcih shows women how to dress (or rather how to undress).
And this even applies in most cases (especially in big cities) in Indonesia, so you see that if a woman decide to wear hijab, it actually shows more her strength, her resolute and her INDEPENDENCE rathen than succumbing to what society (or pop culture) dictate.

I think you mean: "bombarded".

I'm afraid you're pointing out the obvious to me. I could add to that by saying that our girls are also bombarded with images of the 'right weight' or dress size they should be, in order to be popular and successful in life. This is where anorexia nervosa stems from in a frightening number of cases. Trying to conform to the 'norm'. Don't tell me about this - I'm perfectly aware of these problems in 'popular culture' and I make no attempt to defend it, but actually fight against it, as I believe all people should.

However, I'm not sure you've addressed my point sufficiently, merely by offering a counter-stab at my culture. You say she shows 'strength' and you emphasise 'independence' but independent from what? From pop culture, yes... but if she is dressing according to Islamic rules (or guidelines) that can hardly be described as 'independent', can it?

Especially in the western world, when you say there is choice, there is actually not much choice. since little girls, the women in the western countries through popular culture are conditioned and indoctrinised what to dress (sexy is better), how to dress (or undress), how to behave (like a *****)

Well, actually there IS a choice... it all depends on how resistant you are to advertising and other forms of secular indoctrination. The same goes for religious indoctrination. As someone who has raised many a conservative eyebrow in his youth for his own dress sense, I can tell you there is a choice... it all depends on the value a person puts on their own individualism, whether you care enough to make it. Far too many people are blinkered into a notion of 'normality' but at the end of the day, there is always a grudging respect for a person who stands up for their own style and dares to be different. Can you always say these things about any religious culture, where purity and goodness is interpreted through dress?

so you see that women who wear very very modest clothes in the west are normally not very popular and most consider them strange or weird.

Well, actually, you're wrong. At least, it's not the case in my experience. In the same way as you suggest I've imagined the idea of arranged marriages, it appears you have created your own notion about western attitudes to conservative dress. At the very least, it's not really noticed or commented on by as many as you think. There will always be people who mock others for their appearance, but in the general scheme of things, a lady who dresses modestly is not generally considered 'weird'. In fact, it's quite the opposite. If a person dresses inappropropiately for a certain occasion, they may be looked upon as a little 'strange'. As it happens, there are many TV fashion programs which offer advice on how NOT to appear too 'tarty'. It's not all about dressing sexy - it's often just as much about style and elegance. Others will insist, it is a matter of taste. Do you know what they means?

There is in fact, a TV show here in the UK, called "Snog, marry, avoid?" in which female contestants are chosen for their outlandishly revealing dress-sense and offered more 'stylish' alternatives to avoid being percieved as 'tarty'. Of course, it's just a bit of fun, but all the same, the message this show gives out, is that men are more likely to find a girl attractive when she has a mature sense of style, rather than offering everything on a plate, with ridiculously short skirts and low-cut tops. In many cases, too revealing an outfit is more often laughed at, than respected. Men may find it arousing, but that doesn't always mean they will consider her 'girlfriend material' for the long haul.

Of course, having said all that, if you happen to consider that a dress that shows off the figure or a shows a woman's legs up to the knee, is in some way 'sinful' then most of what I have said will be lost on you. It all depends on having a balanced view and of understanding people's motives, rather than having a knee-jerk reaction to what you see around you. Conflating dress sense with a 'looseness of morality' would be as much a mistake as reading beards as a sign of bomb-manufacture.

This is in sharp contrast to certain laws in muslim countries, which we have become aware of, in which the penalty for apostasy appears to be clearly defined.

and what is that? I actually know one or two "muslims" who apostated because of marriage, and I know a number of poor muslims who apostated because of economic reasons but nothing happened to them.
I live in the LARGEST MUSLIM COUNTRY in the world, by the way.

You know "one or two..."? My, that's a straw poll if ever I saw one. Now come on... You know what I am talking about. Are you seriously trying to tell me that Qu-ranic writings say nothing about apostacy arousing the consternation of Allah? If this source is incorrect, then please correct it for me.... I'm open minded. I'm only trying to get to the truth here.

"The Qur'an states that God (in Arabic, Allah) despises apostasy, with severe punishment to be imposed in the hereafter. Except 16:106-109, the verses that discuss apostasy all appear in surahs identified as Madinan and belong to the period when the Islamic state had been established so they are not there because of any "need of time."

Sunni hadith
Some Sunni scholars claim that the Hadith sanction the death penalty for apostasy, thereby explicitly condemning the act. Examples of such passages in the Sahih al-Bukhari include Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17, Sahih al-Bukhari, 4:52:260, Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:57, Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:84:58 and Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:89:271.

"Allah's Apostle said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in three cases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves the Muslims."Sahih al-Bukhari, 9:83:17..."
-------------------------------------------------------

I am aware that Wikipedia can often contain inaccurate material, so if the above is incorrect, then now is your opportunity to re-educate me and set the record straight.... yes?

 

[Ramadhan]

Are you seriously trying to tell me that Qu-ranic writings say nothing about apostacy arousing the consternation of Allah? If this source is incorrect, then please correct it for me.... I'm open minded. I'm only trying to get to the truth here.

I am not aware of any particular punishment for apostacy in the Qur'an. I am referring to your previous post, by the way.
This is what you wrote:

This is in sharp contrast to certain laws in muslim countries, which we have become aware of, in which the penalty for apostasy appears to be clearly defined.

Please enlighten me as to what is the clearly defined punishment according to the Qur'an.

By the way, you seem to know the Qur'an a lot more than I do to have such a strong opinion about it.

 

[Ramadhan]

If it's true that arranged marriages form no part of Islamic culture at all, then I would be delighted to hear it.

There is no such thing as "Islamic culture". Islam is a way of life.
There is local culture, and then there is a way of life prescribed by Islam.
as long as the local culture does not contradict or break Islamic jurisprudence, then it is allowed.
In Islam, there is no compulsion, and a marriage can only take place if both the bride and the groom agree to a marriage.
I'm still not sure what you mean by "arranged marriage".
But I personally don't know anyone whose marriage has been "arranged".
In "arranged marriage", do the woman have a say?

Just by reading my posts, you should be able to detect that I can only bring to the table what I have heard and been told.

I can only assume that you only listen to/watch/read western media with all that entails, hence you have such uninformed opinions about muslims?

 

[Ramadhan]

I think you mean: "bombarded".

Thank you for the correction.
pardon my bad english, it's only my fourth language.

However, I'm not sure you've addressed my point sufficiently, merely by offering a counter-stab at my culture. You say she shows 'strength' and you emphasise 'independence' but independent from what? From pop culture, yes... but if she is dressing according to Islamic rules (or guidelines) that can hardly be described as 'independent', can it?

What I meant by independence is that the women women who chose to wear hijab do it out of their own conscience, not because of pressure from anyone, and in fact, especially in secular countries, wearing hijab would be considered as social suicide because the women do not conform to the dress code of what women "need" to wear to be "acceptable"

 

[Ramadhan]

Well, actually there IS a choice... it all depends on how resistant you are to advertising and other forms of secular indoctrination.

I didn't say there isn't any choice did I?

Can you always say these things about any religious culture, where purity and goodness is interpreted through dress?

I wish you stop projecting your knowledge about religion ( I assume it's christianity) onto Islam.
In islam we do not interpret "purity" and "goodness" through dress, because only Allah SWT knows who's pure and who's good as the heart plays very important role and only Allah knows whats in the heart.
We choose the way we dress (in this case hijab for women) because Allah commands us to, and a good muslim aims to please Allah SWT.

 

[Ramadhan]

It all depends on having a balanced view and of understanding people's motives, rather than having a knee-jerk reaction to what you see around you.

I wish you apply this to yourself too, after accusing all muslim women to have been "indoctrinised" for having chosen to wear hijab.

 

[S.Belle]

How is it that you were taught or came to feel that Christianity was NOT a way of life?

I seen this with my own eyes christians (not saying all) who are pious on Sunday but Monday thru Saturday drinking, partying, and having sex. Thats not a life i wish to have or be associated with, and at a young age (even though my mom was a minister) I didnt believe Jesus was the son of God or that he died on the cross for our sins.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

What I meant by independence is that the women women who chose to wear hijab do it out of their own conscience, not because of pressure from anyone, and in fact, especially in secular countries, wearing hijab would be considered as social suicide because the women do not conform to the dress code of what women "need" to wear to be "acceptable"

No, it's not 'social suicide' at all. The women over here have the social network of their fellow muslims and of their local mosques as soon as they arrive. They also have strong support from our government in terms of recommendations for acceptance and equal opportunities. You might be pleased to know that some women in traditional dress hold professional occupations, go shopping, visit the bank - often without ever having to see a white person at all, because now they can live in areas completely occupied by muslims. In other, more mixed areas, they are seen out and about, looking perfectly happy and the local mosque in my area just completed a new women's education unit. I believe they even have their own swimming baths. There is no sense of social suicide whatsoever.

Since you mention dresscode, that's quite funny because in the city I live in, there are SO MANY muslims here, I sometimes feel I am the one not following the 'dress code'. ;D

Seriously though, it's got to the stage now, where a white person can not only be prosecuted for speaking ill of immigrants or giving verbal abuse but can also fall into unpopularity among his friends. While there are still large numbers of people who do express resentment for muslims (oh, yes, sadly, there have been racial attacks, of course!)

Having said that, I can't speak for all cities of Europe and America, but I do get the impression that in most places, the muslims themselves at least do set up large enough social networks to ease the arrival of the hijab-wearing muslimah into the west.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

There is no such thing as "Islamic culture". Islam is a way of life.
There is local culture, and then there is a way of life prescribed by Islam.
as long as the local culture does not contradict or break Islamic jurisprudence, then it is allowed.
In Islam, there is no compulsion, and a marriage can only take place if both the bride and the groom agree to a marriage.
I'm still not sure what you mean by "arranged marriage".
But I personally don't know anyone whose marriage has been "arranged".

Good!

I can only assume that you only listen to/watch/read western media with all that entails, hence you have such uninformed opinions about muslims?

That's funny, because it seems we both only have our own country's media for reference. ;D

 

[جوري]

Why do you assume my local psychiatrist knows anything about muslim culture?

I believe brother Naidamar meant pay your psychiatrist a visit to find a cure to those paroxysms of cachinnation that seem to plague you at inappropriate times as well to discuss your delusions of grandiosity and self-importance.. when there you might discuss with him 'Muslim culture' but I am not sure that would be a beneficial way to spend your session money!

all the best

 

[Ezekiel_B]

I didn't say there isn't any choice did I?

Why, yes you did! If I may remind you...?

Especially in the western world, when you say there is choice, there is actually not much choice. since little girls, the women in the western countries through popular culture are conditioned and indoctrinised what to dress (sexy is better), how to dress (or undress), how to behave (like a *****)

I wish you stop projecting your knowledge about religion ( I assume it's christianity) onto Islam.

I wish I didn't have to, but I'm sorry, I see certain similarities (in just some areas, you understand).

In islam we do not interpret "purity" and "goodness" through dress.

Well I think you do. What else is it for? You don't dress in black to make people think you're evil, do you? No, you see - I'm the one who does that! ;D

What I mean is, (and you've intimated as much yourself) if a woman is parading around wearing very little in the west, I get the feeling you consider her to resemble some kind of prostitute? Well, if a woman is covered (in the so called 'decent way') it stands to reason you may think more highly of her (than if her butt was hanging out the back of jeans). Do you not see what I mean? Goodness... purity... you know... that sort of thing...?

We choose the way we dress (in this case hijab for women) because Allah commands us to.

Excuse me, but don't you think you've just contradicted yourself? You 'choose' although Allah commands it anyway? The way you put it, it doesn't sound very much like he asked you nicely or as a second thought... ("Er, excuse me, madame... I'd be ever so grateful if you didn't mind covering up a bit?"). He commands and you... what...? Obey? Or do you choose to obey? At what point do his 'commands' stop being commands and become requests? And what does he do if you don't comply? Are you saying his commands are optional?

I think I could rest my case there... almost. We'll see.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

I wish you apply this to yourself too, after accusing all muslim women to have been "indoctrinised" for having chosen to wear hijab.

Sorry, but...

doc·trine
–noun 1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.

2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.

3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
-------------------------------------------
in·doc·tri·nate
–verb (used with object), -nat·ed, -nat·ing. 1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.

2. to teach or inculcate.

3. to imbue with learning.

--------------------------------------------------------

Try reading the definitions... then ask yourself which part doesn't apply to you. Then tell me - was it a knee-jerk reaction, or a simple observation?

 

[GreyKode]

Sorry, but...

doc·trine
–noun 1. a particular principle, position, or policy taught or advocated, as of a religion or government: Catholic doctrines; the Monroe Doctrine.

2. something that is taught; teachings collectively: religious doctrine.

3. a body or system of teachings relating to a particular subject: the doctrine of the Catholic Church.
-------------------------------------------
in·doc·tri·nate
–verb (used with object), -nat·ed, -nat·ing. 1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.

2. to teach or inculcate.

3. to imbue with learning.

--------------------------------------------------------

Try reading the definitions... then ask yourself which part doesn't apply to you. Then tell me - was it a knee-jerk reaction, or a simple observation?

May i ask what is your religion or your framework of morals?. Tell me who doesn't instill a set of values into their children from a young age.
Will you not teach your children say, that spying or looking at people while they are naked from behind doors etc is wrong?. Would you not indoctrinate your young children by teaching them not to watch porn movies or violence movies?
Will you teach your children that engaging in sex outside marraige is wrong? I guess not, we however think that is abominable and so we indoctrinate our children to beleive that it is a sin.

So basically everyone is indoctrinated into beleving a set of values from his childhood, unless ofcourse his parents were not giving him any attention.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

May i ask what is your religion or your framework of morals?. Tell me who doesn't instill a set of values into their children from a young age.
Will you not teach your children say, that spying or looking at people while they are naked from behind doors etc is wrong?. Would you not indoctrinate your young children by teaching them not to watch porn movies or violence movies?
Will you teach your children that engaging in sex outside marraige is wrong? I guess not, we however think that is abominable and so we indoctrinate our children to beleive that it is a sin.

So basically everyone is indoctrinated into beleving a set of values from his childhood, unless ofcourse his parents were not giving him any attention.

At last... Someone who gets the point! I have never denied that the secular culture indoctrinates people - and that some of it is very negative. What I've said concerns more the nature of the indoctrination. Also, if you read back through my posts, you'll see I have not condemned anyone for having certain morals - in fact, I have even complimented someone on it.

I don't have any children and don't plan on having any. But you're right - pretty much all decent people DO instill their children with moral ideas - it's just that in my case, I would not feel the need for a religious scripture to refer to. It would come entirely from my own heart and experience. I would not, however, teach them that "sex before marriage" is wrong because I do not believe it is 'wrong'. For the notion of 'right & wrong' in these matters is entirely subjective to me. I have no reason to believe it is 'wrong' or a 'sin' because I do not consider marriage necessary in my life. To me, it is a religious and legal ceremony, which myself and my partner simply do not require, in order to remain faithful, so long as we are in love. A secure relationships is important - at least, to me - and in my case, I would have no desire to wander from that, for the sake of lust. That is out of simple love and respect. No one had to indoctrinate us at all, in any religious context, for us to gain these values. We already know that the 'sanctity' of marriage is not enough to secure a happy life together, nor can it prevent 'infidelity' (so long as you don't threaten people with hell, or a good whipping). The wrath of the gods is entirely within the human imagination.

When it comes to indoctrinating children with primitive ideas of sin, hell and other imaginary concepts, leading ultimately to a condemnation of people for their lifestyles and sexual preferences which do not happen to fit with the laws of a certain god and garnering the idea that all women of the west, who are not covered head to toe are little more than prostitutes, I do regard this as an undesirable and potentially dangerous form of indoctrination.

I'm sorry if you don't like that, but those are my views.

 

[Ezekiel_B]

Will you not teach your children say, that spying or looking at people while they are naked from behind doors etc is wrong?

Why would I think that was right? Who do you know, who thinks that's a perfectly okay thing to do? I never even thought of that! Makes me wonder what was going through your mind at the time!