[Danah]

Peace,

I was thinking today, If the cross was the thing that Jesus was crucified on "as Christians believe" and suffered too much for the sake of humanity to save them from the original sin. Why it is glorified like this?

I mean if someone was killed/tortured by a certain tool, should we glorify that tool to keep remembering that person?:?

I was looking for that old thread of "Questions answered by Christians" but didn't find it!! If any mod can move this post to there I will be grateful. If not, then khair inshaAllah.

 

[Pygoscelis]

It does seem odd doesn't it? Imagine a religious group walking around with figurines of guillotines or electric chairs around their necks.

 

[What Is Truth?]

Peace,

I was thinking today, If the cross was the thing that Jesus was crucified on "as Christians believe" and suffered too much for the sake of humanity to save them from the original sin. Why it is glorified like this?

I mean if someone was killed/tortured by a certain tool, should we glorify that tool to keep remembering that person?:?

Do Christians glorify the cross? We regularly use it as a symbol to remind us of the suffering, humiliation and death Jesus went through for humanity to reconcile us to God, which is central to Christian belief, but I don't think we glorify that symbol. I find that thinking of the cross helps me to glorify God by helping me remember His grace rather than making me glorify the cross itself.

 

[جوري]

It does seem odd doesn't it? Imagine a religious group walking around with figurines of guillotines or electric chairs around their necks.

Oddly enough I found that to be one of your most lucid and apropos comments here..

Do Christians glorify the cross? We regularly use it as a symbol to remind us of the suffering, humiliation and death Jesus went through for humanity to reconcile us to God, which is central to Christian belief, but I don't think we glorify that symbol. I find that thinking of the cross helps me to glorify God by helping me remember His grace rather than making me glorify the cross itself.

Do you not find it odd to combine the words suffering and humiliation as a description of the one who created the universe and all that is in it.. believe me I am in no mood to get into another topic about how odd I find your beliefs.. but do you not for a split second find it odd to marry those words humiliation of God? Astghfor Allah il3atheem!

all the best

 

[glo]

Do Christians glorify the cross? We regularly use it as a symbol to remind us of the suffering, humiliation and death Jesus went through for humanity to reconcile us to God, which is central to Christian belief, but I don't think we glorify that symbol. I find that thinking of the cross helps me to glorify God by helping me remember His grace rather than making me glorify the cross itself.

That's how I would describe it too. Well said, What is Truth.

It does seem odd doesn't it? Imagine a religious group walking around with figurines of guillotines or electric chairs around their necks.

Haha! My atheist husband once said 'When Jesus returns, the last thing he will want to see is crosses!'

 

[Danah]

Do Christians glorify the cross? We regularly use it as a symbol to remind us of the suffering, humiliation and death Jesus went through for humanity to reconcile us to God, which is central to Christian belief, but I don't think we glorify that symbol. I find that thinking of the cross helps me to glorify God by helping me remember His grace rather than making me glorify the cross itself.

well, even if we supposed "for the sake of argument" that its a symbol, why a tool of torture has to be taken as a symbol?

 

[What Is Truth?]

Do you not find it odd to combine the words suffering and humiliation as a description of the one who created the universe and all that is in it.. believe me I am in no mood to get into another topic about how odd I find your beliefs.. but do you not for a split second find it odd to marry those words humiliation of God? Astghfor Allah il3atheem!

In a word, yes. I think it is just about one of the oddest ideas anyone could think of.

 

[What Is Truth?]

well, even if we supposed "for the sake of argument" that its a symbol, why a tool of torture has to be taken as a symbol?

We also believe that it is a real symbol: that Jesus really did endure death by crucifixion. Just as an empty tomb is a symbol of hope and new life, we also believe that the tomb really was empty on the third day. As for why we think that what the cross symbolises is significant, we would have to explore the idea of atonement, and why Jesus' death is central to Christianity.

 

[glo]

Perhaps you have to understand the enormity of what Christians believe happened when Jesus died on the cross.
His death (and the cruelty of his death) and his following resurrection are central the the Christian faith.
It seems quite natural to use the cross as a symbol of our faith.

Jesus also instructed his followers with these words:

"If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me." (Matthew 16:24)

Therefore carrying a cross around my neck is a reminder for me to do just that ... to carry my cross and follow Jesus!

Apparently the early Christians used the fish as their symbol (it is still used now). I don't know how reliable the Wikipedia source is, but here is a bit about the history of the cross:

In Christianity the cross reminds Christians of God's act of love in Christ's sacrifice at Calvary—"the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world." The cross also reminds Christians of Jesus' victory over sin and death, since it is believed that through His death and resurrection He conquered death itself. They venerate it not as a material object seen in isolation but as the symbol of the sacrifice by which Christ saved them, as the instrument of Christ's triumph, according to Colossians 2:15 ("Having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross"),[6] and "as the instrument of our God's saving Love".[7]

 

[جوري]

In a word, yes. I think it is just about one of the oddest ideas anyone could think of.

Thanks for your honesty...

peace

 

[What Is Truth?]

Thanks for your honesty.../QUOTE]
You're welcome. What I think is important is that we don't dismiss ideas simply because they seem odd. God speaking through a burning bush is pretty odd. Quantum Mechanics is just weird. I personally find the idea that God would allow men to corrupt Scripture rather strange, but I refuse to let that affect the way I see Islam. So it's up to everyone to try and put our subjective feelings aside and try and see things from other points of view, and do our best to make the most sense of what we find.

Peace,
Matthew

 

[Predator]

Haha! My atheist husband once said 'When Jesus returns, the last thing he will want to see is crosses!'

Your husband is right ,Jesus will be breaking all of them in his second coming

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, kill Antichchrist and abolish the Jizya tax.

 

[جوري]

Thanks for your honesty.../QUOTE]
You're welcome. What I think is important is that we don't dismiss ideas simply because they seem odd. God speaking through a burning bush is pretty odd. Quantum Mechanics is just weird. I personally find the idea that God would allow men to corrupt Scripture rather strange, but I refuse to let that affect the way I see Islam. So it's up to everyone to try and put our subjective feelings aside and try and see things from other points of view, and do our best to make the most sense of what we find.

Peace,
Matthew

For me 'truths' has to be built on logic not sophistry and convolution.. if you dismiss the idea and find that your scriptures are discordant then you'll be left with one of two conclusions, either they are not from God or god is an inept liar.. now given some of the other christian beliefs I don't think the idea of a deceptive god is far fetched, if a god forsakes his ownself for something as anti-climactic as reconciliation which apparently he was inept at establishing with these pitiful creatures that he created then there is no point to believe that this god will forsake others as well..
a god that dies and is untrustworthy in my opinion isn't a god that is worthy of worship and in fact cements some atheist ideas like the universe can function without this god, for surely in the period of his suckling years, the period when he was ****ing the earth he allegedly created for not bearing him fruit, the period when he was praying to his own self to not be forsaken and the period in which he died, the universe didn't collapse upon itself for his leave of absence and negligence then what is the point? god was ineffectual at even choosing apostles that wouldn't forsake him and had to appear in a non-visible form to man considered his nemesis who abrogated much of his commandments to send the masses into further confusion..

there is more to religion than pretty words put together.. else there is really no difference between one religion and the next, they all pretty much have some moral ethical code that even atheists find agreeable. If your faith isn't evidence based beyond a reasonable doubt then there is no difference between it and other falsehoods.

Obviously your core tenets and happenstances affect the way I view your religion and there is nothing that can be done to change that because all that can truly be done is to pas it with florid words to disguise some very convoluted beliefs that weren't preached by Jesus (p) himself .. the truth is simple it should be understood by the simplest as well the most complex mind.. you need not a convention of theologians to decide or attempt to explain God!

all the best

 

[aadil77]

Your husband is right ,Jesus will be breaking all of them in his second coming

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, kill Antichchrist and abolish the Jizya tax.

;D spot on akhi, I was just thinkin of that

 

[glo]

Your husband is right ,Jesus will be breaking all of them in his second coming

Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 656:

Narrated Abu Huraira:

Allah's Apostle said, "The Hour will not be established until the son of Mary (i.e. Jesus) descends amongst you as a just ruler, he will break the cross, kill the pigs, kill Antichchrist and abolish the Jizya tax.

Greetings,

That may be what Islam teaches ... although I can assure you that my husband wasn't talking from an Islamic perspective.
Purely from a human one, wondering what it would be like to return to this world and find people carrying the very torture instrument which caused your death ...

Just thinking though, wouldn't it be amazing to be there when Jesus returns ...
That will be the end of all the arguments between Muslims and Christians! And we will finally know the whole truth

Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. (1Corinthians13:12)

 

[What Is Truth?]

If your faith isn't evidence based beyond a reasonable doubt then there is no difference between it and other falsehoods.

Agreed. You consider the evidence to point towards Islam, while I have found the evidence to point towards Christianity. I really enjoy the passion with which you put forward your beliefs, and I hope we get to discuss our differing views some time!

Matthew

 

[Supreme]

Well, I think glo pretty much hit the nail of the head when she posted the text from Wikipedia- I wear a cross because it reminds me of the immense love God has for me. I don't think many parents would let their only child take the blame of my sins and wrongdoings and subsequently let their child die so I could be free- only God has that sort of love. And that is what wearing a cross reminds me of.

 

[aadil77]

Just thinking though, wouldn't it be amazing to be there when Jesus returns ...
That will be the end of all the arguments between Muslims and Christians! And we will finally know the whole truth

It would be amazing because from an islamic perspective not only will you be witnessing one of the best prophets of Allah, but also the fact that he will kill the dajjal (antichrist) and prove all present christians wrong about their beliefs about him, then ofcourse everyone will be following the same faith. If this is meant to happen in my lifetime, then I honestly can't wait.

Do you guys also believe that he will return to earth?

 

[marwen]

Well, I think glo pretty much hit the nail of the head when she posted the text from Wikipedia- I wear a cross because it reminds me of the immense love God has for me. I don't think many parents would let their only child take the blame of my sins and wrongdoings and subsequently let their child die so I could be free- only God has that sort of love. And that is what wearing a cross reminds me of.

That seems to me a convincing reason for wearing the cross.
But if christians consider the possibility that Jesus may not have been crucified (has been saved by God), all this cross sanctification could be inappropriate. But I know christians don't consider this possibility because big part of chritianity is based on the sacrifice of jesus : i mean if we suppose Jesus(as) was not crusified, the whole sacrifice idea will be untrue.
I just said that, because muslim's believe Jesus(as) wasn't crucified
(mentioned in the qur'an :
004.157
YUSUFALI: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-
)
I'm sure many (should I say all) christians don't think the qur'an is true, but it's still a possibility.

Peace & Blessing.

 

[Supreme]

Do you guys also believe that he will return to earth?

Of course we await His return to Earth! Obviously it's mentioned in the Epistles and Revelation, but Jesus Himself mentions it:

And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

(Matthew 24:30)

The Second Coming is an integral Christian belief! Even the ultra- unorthodox regard Jesus' return as an important teaching:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_coming

The Second Coming of Christ or Parousia is the return of Jesus Christ from Heaven to Earth as expected in most Christian eschatologies. The anticipated event is predicted in biblical Messianic prophecy. These prophecies include the general resurrection of the dead, the last judgment of the living and the dead, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God on earth (also called the Reign of God), including the Messianic Age. Views about the nature of Jesus' Second Coming vary among Christian denominations.

The original Greek version of the New Testament (Novum Testamentum Graece) uses the term parousia (παρουσία from the Greek literal meaning of parousia: divine presence, derived from "para": beside, beyond, and "ousia": substance) the "appearance and subsequent presence with" (in the ancient world referring to official visits by royalty). Parousia[1] is used in the Bible 24 times.[2]

The Second Coming is also referred to as the Second Advent, from the Latin term "adventus", for "coming". The study of biblical last days comprise a body of theological knowledge called Christian eschatology.

I'm sure many (should I say all) christians don't think the qur'an is true, but it's still a possibility.

Well, the death and Resurrection of Christ is THE most important belief of Christianity. Believing in the Second Coming, the Trinity, the prophecies etc all pale in comparison and are redundant without that one belief of Jesus' death and resurrection. Without that belief, there is no Christianity.