Why Christians Glorify the Cross?

[Supreme]

Here's a question: do Muslims on here distinguish between 'reverence' and 'worship'? Because, it is perhaps true to suggest Christians revere the cross- I know I revere it, and what it stands for. However, I do not worship the cross.

 

[Ramadhan]

If Jesus came back 3 days later what exactly did he sacrifice? He didn't sacrifice himself for the sins of humanity, he had a bad weekend for the sins of humanity.

Exactly! especially since, according to christians, he is god, so presumably he knew in advance that he was just going to have a 3 days rest. What a sacrifice right!

 

[Ramadhan]

Here's a question: do Muslims on here distinguish between 'reverence' and 'worship'? Because, it is perhaps true to suggest Christians revere the cross- I know I revere it, and what it stands for. However, I do not worship the cross.

I think you value your cross more than glo does

 

[Danah]

Here's a question: do Muslims on here distinguish between 'reverence' and 'worship'? Because, it is perhaps true to suggest Christians revere the cross- I know I revere it, and what it stands for. However, I do not worship the cross.

Can you please tell me what is the meaning of the supplications I posted above?

 

[Supreme]

Can you please tell me what is the meaning of the supplications I posted above?

Reverence. Simple. No one is denying just how valued the cross is in Christianity. It is a crucial aspect of our faith, and part of the main Christian event.

 

[Danah]

Reverence. Simple. No one is denying just how valued the cross is in Christianity. It is a crucial aspect of our faith, and part of the main Christian event.

Well, Reverence that you seek its protection and power?

 

[Supreme]

Well, Reverence that you seek its protection and power?

It's a metaphor; replace 'cross' with 'Jesus' sacrifice', and you're along the right lines.

 

[aadil77]

It's a metaphor; replace 'cross' with 'Jesus' sacrifice', and you're along the right lines.

is that your own interpretation?

I'm always amazed at how many metaphors are used in christian texts

 

[Supreme]

is that your own interpretation?

I'm always amazed at how many metaphors are used in christian texts

That isn't just my interpretation, but the interpretation of lots of Christians. By 'the cross', it should be obvious we are referring to Jesus' sacrifice, at least to anyone who's familar with the basics of the religion.

 

[Missinglinks]

is that your own interpretation?

I'm always amazed at how many metaphors are used in christian texts

They have to... remember that jesus pbuh, according to bible, said that they are people with not the (brain?) capicity to recieve the full truth...

John 16 12"I have many more things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now. . 13But when he, the Spirit of truth(Mohammed pbuh), comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Jesus didnt get resurrected because his body wasnt spiritual . The below verse by Paul says that the resurrected bodies are spiritualised

With respect to the verse which you quoted, I happened to spend this past weekend with N.T. Wright, Anglican Bishop of Durham and noted theologian and scholar. In discussing the general resurrection of the dead, he made note of the verse you mention

1 Corinthians 15:44

It is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

What he had to say spoke directly to the issue you have raised. He made note of the endings for the Greek adjectives used for "natural" and "spiritual". They denote not type nor substance but rather the source of power, what it is that animates them. This fits entirely within the context of the discussion as well. So, the natural body is that which derives its power from nature, from the fleshly world, but the spiritual body is that which is animated, given life and power from the Spirit, God's life giving Spirit that breathes himself into humankind. A quick look at other commentators will also substantiate this:

Paul answers the question some believers were asking -- viz., since a resurrection body was like the sinful mortal body we now have, how could the resurrection of such a body occur? Paul raises questions as a means of answering some of the proposed objections. He calls the questions foolish and in replying to them uses an analogy to the organizational structure of the physical life and world....

A[n] analogy involves the body of flesh various forms of animal life have-- differing kinds of flesh for men, animals, birds, and fish.... Paul is arguing that God is able to take similar physical material and organize it differently to accomplish his purposes.

In vv. 42-44a the apostle applies this to the truth of the resurrection of the body. God can take the mortal body, perishable, dishonored, humiliated because of sin, and weak--a natural body like those of the animal world--and bring that body that "is sown" in death into a different order of life in a spiritual body. Such a body will indeed have immortality, glory, and power. It will have a spiritual way of functioning similar to the way heavenly bodies function in contradistinction to earthly bodies. That by "spiritual" here (v. 44) Paul means completely nonmaterial is incompatible with the whole context, which discusses the differing organizations of material substance. The spiritual body is an imperishable yet utterly real body--one of a differetn order and having different fucntions from the eartly body; it is a body given by God himself--a body glorified with eternal life.

Verses 44b-49 develop the distinction between the natural body and the spiritual body, by bringing in two categories--one of Adam and his descendants and the other of Christ, the last Adam, and his redeemed ones. By "natural body" Paul means one such as Ada had (v. 45) when he was made of the dust of the ground and given the breath of life (cf. Gen. 2:7). By "spiritual body" the apostle means that an imperishable body that has received eternal life form Christ, the life-giving Spirit (cf. john 5:28), including a metamorphosis of the physical body to adapt it spiritually (without either corruption of mortality) for living with God (Phil 3:21), just as Christ in his resurrected and glorified human body (Luke 24:36-43) went to heaven to be with the Father (cf. Acts 1:11, 2:33).

W. Harold Mare, "1 Corinthians", The Expositor's Bible Commentary. Frank E. Gaebelein, ed. Copyright, 1976, Zondervan.

The sense is that the resurrection is not a spiritualized existence in the manner of being non-corporeal. Rather, we are raised with very physical human bodies, but these bodies rather than being animated by forces of the flesh are once again animated as they were originally created to be, by the presence of the Holy Spirit. So, just as we are all created in the likeness of the first Adam, scripture declares that we who are in Christ are now re-created in the likeness of Christ, "the last Adam", who came from heaven into a human body (the incarnation), a body that was glorified following his resurrection. Those who belong to him, Paul says, are also "of heaven" and will ultimately be like him. That is we will one day, in the day of the resurrection when heaven comes down to earth, be raised to new life in the new world order that is yet to be. That eternal life, unlike the medieval pictures one sees of heaven, will be a very physical life in a very physical world right here with heaven on earth. And it will be so for all of eternity with God.

 

[Grace Seeker]

if jesus was the son of god or is god or what ever well when jesus was getting tortured to death why did god not save his only son from this dreadful torture before raising him up alive? lol what kind of god is that? im sorry if im coming across ignorant but why is it when you ask non muslims this they get all defensive and cant provide a proper answer for this? and the answers that they do provide dont make sense :hmm: lol

Sorry :hiding:

I hope, then, that I do not come across as defensive. Whether you find it a proper answer or not I can't say, but it may be that God's ways are different enough from our ways that just as the Muslim says "Allah knows best", so to the Christian defers to God's judgment and logic rather than his own. To ask why God could not save his son, would be to have a presupposition that he would have, but was unable to. You don't ask that, but some do, I for one object that presupposition as assuming things that deny the reality of what God can and cannot do. So, given that God could have and chose not to would cause me to infer that in the scheme of things, God counted the cost and considered it worth it. Why was Abraham willing to sacrifice his son? Would the answer "because the most important thing in Abraham's life was submitting himself to honoring and obeying Allah's will, whether he fully understood it or not" be a reasonable conclusion? And why would Allah ask it of Abraham? Is it not as a test?

So to with the life of Jesus. Jesus who stands in for all of humanity does what we had failed to do and lives a perfect human life, fully submitted to the will of God. And in Jesus, God sees humanity finally pass the test to live that submitted life which every other member of humanity had to pass since the time of Adam. For reasons that I cannot explain (beyond the love of God and his unfathomable mercy) he imputes Christ's righteousness to those who, in faith, join themselves to God through him and thus makes redemption possible for all humankind.

That end, the redemption, restoration, and reconciliation of separated humanity is the goal of the cross. And as such, the scandal of the cross becomes testimony to the value God places on bringing about that reconciliation which could be accomplished no other way.

 

[Grace Seeker]

This is why I stressed my point: There is a complete disconnect, between words and actions, between whats in the heart and their actions.

Christians say they don't revere and glorify the cross but their actions show otherwise.
Christians say they are all about peace and love thy enemies, but priests and nuns in Rwanda massacred their enemies while American christians supported Bush to attack and invade Afghanistan and Iraq and killed millions.

I'll grant that many people (of all religions and no religion) have disconnects between their words and their actions. The slaughtering of innocents in Rwanda, in Armenia, and in Moscow subways are but a few examples of that. Christians are not immune from such disconnects. Given that reality, there are those who probably do go beyond having the cross as a reminder of Jesus and begin to glorify the cross itself. When that happens it probably isn't so much a disconnect as an overconnect, but either way it is wrong. As for those of us who utilize the cross not as an object of worship in its own right, but a reminder of the sacrifice of Jesus and the price he paid for our salvation (I believe that this represents the majority, even if you do see behavior that you preceive differently) the reason that we do so is because it is a tradition we have inherited from previous generations. It comes to us as a symbol of God's love. As for how what was an sign of shame became the dominate symbol of the church, I hope you'll allow me to wait to post on that till tomorrow.

 

[Grace Seeker]

Exactly! especially since, according to christians, he is god, so presumably he knew in advance that he was just going to have a 3 days rest. What a sacrifice right!

IF all he did was take a nap for three days, then you might have some small point. But, that dismisses entirely the Christian understanding of Jesus as taking the sins of the world upon himself and the weight of that. Muslims here can't imagine that God would incarnate himself because of the incompatiblity with what that means in terms of bodily functions and the nature and character of Allah. Well, for Christ to take on the burden of the sins of the world was far worse than that which Muslims revolt at in terms of taking on human flesh. It wasn't so much death, it was the burdern of bering our sins that was the real sacrifice that Christ made.

 

[Woodrow]

Before this thread erupts, it is going to bed. I believe all posts that can be considered as insulting by anybody have now been removed, along with those replying to them. So to keep this from turning into a battleground or the promoting of a religion other than Islam.

:threadclo: